Fiori,
Maybe I missed this in an earlier post. What was the need that the dumpy red head filled for him? He had a need to go outside the M for EA. I'm curious because if he appears not to be as aggressive for recovery as you expect then does he truly know his triggers or are his needs being met now in the M that he is confident he would not go outside the M? I expected my H to go at the same pace as me but the MC told me I should not expect that. I had to let him go at his own pace. One of my problems was that I was always the fix everything person. I had to step back and let my H and kids learn and fix their own problems. They need to go through their own emotions at their own pace - you can't determine someone elses emotions or what they are destined to go through to get to where they need to be. After a while it is very draining trying to be the glue that holds everything together. You are going to come undone at the seams - breathe, take a deep breath and weigh everything out.

Of course you deserve a slice !! I hope you are having one right now ... hee, hee!

Well the main problem I see with your very specific list of needs is that it is kinda long. I don't know about your husband, but my husband would not be able to change all those behaviors at once. Heck, I probably would have a hard time juggling all that myself if the shoe were on the other foot, so not a slam on men at all. Would you be open to just giving him one thing on the list to work on? Then when that thing becomes a habit, adding a new behavior?

I find this statement odd:


Why are you being a jerk to your husband? You want him to increase his lovingness towards you. How does this help? Do you think this might contribute to him feeling down? When you say that he is not very convincing, isn't this a disrespectful judgment of him? I'm not sure, but I am concerned that you might be creating artificial obstacles for your husband as a way to get him to put in more effort or to test his level of effort.

By the way, where does domestic support rank on your hierarchy of emotional needs?

Domestic support? Do you mean from H? I have absolutely no need there. We work great as a team. MOstly I take care of household stuff because I'm a sahm, but he's great with help. He helps me any way he can, as long as he's got the time. But, I can honestly say, I never struggle with this issue.

As for the list of items. I see what you mean. I suppose to me, the grouping of ways he can show me love are all lumped together. These types of things come very easily to me and I find it odd that he cannot think to do them. Again, he's not me...I have to remember that.

As far as renouncing OW. I suppose I have a need to hear him say she was a mistake. NOt because he messed with my security, but because she's a sneaky, selfish person who intentionally tried to tear our family down. Don't you eventually get angry with a person who was part of family destruction? I think he really thinks she's a nice girl who simply got 'caught up'. I strongly disagree. She's not nice, she did lots of things with cruel intent. How hard would it be to just tell me once or twice that he regrets it? Yup, he says he's sorry and he regrets the hurt he caused. But, does he regret meeting her? Does he regret lying or simply that he got caught? There is such a blurred line here so I'm confused. And, in reality, does it really matter what he thinks? Maybe if I thought he had yucky thoughts about her I would feel more secure that he'd not rekindle anything with her considering they still work for the same company. I really need him to be away from her.

I didn't have time to read this entire thread but I just wanted to chime in since my situation seems similar to yours.

I want to warn you that my H lied to me repeatedly and told me his A was only an EA with a coworker after I discovered some emails. Even though I was devastated just by the EA, I trusted what he said and he continued to work with her. He told me they had ended it and he was not talking to her. Well, after several months of being lied to I uncovered the full truth, that it was not only an EA but it was also a PA and the emotional part of it was much more extensive than he told me initially. He was acting more connected to me but he was still in contact with her and it wasn't until all contact ended and ALL of the secrets were out that true recovery could happen between us.

I was allowing him to continue in his job for the same reasons you are. He had worked his way up the ladder and had several promising projects in the works. After my discovery of the truth, there was no way he could continue working there. FWH found a new job that pays better, and he works on projects he finds more interesting and rewarding. Change is scary but often it brings about better opportunities.

Yes, I agree with you...the change will most likely be a good thing. We will go on vacation next week for ten days and I hope that during that time we can talk about what the next step is for him and new employment. He knows this is exactly what he wants/needs but is paralyzed by the idea of it.

As for this being a pa...I seriously doubt it got to that point. I do believe I know him well enough to tell that. And, he met with our deacon at church and then the deacon and I talked. We also did MC in the beginning. He had ample time to clear things up, if needed. And, add the fact that ow went to my mother in law for several hours one night and dumped everything on her. My mother in law assures me that it never went to that point. And, H tells me that if it came to that point he would have left first. I'll check in later...tell me your story.

I think it's a challenge to expect your H to regret meeting OW. I have the same problem with my H...only he was brutally honest and said that he doesn't regret the A!!! That was a tough one for me to handle.

He and I talked at length about it. He is remorseful and regrets the pain that the A created, but he doesn't regret the actions he took in his life. WOW. When I think back on my life, even the things that I did that I am not proud of, I can honestly say I do not regret them because they have given me the perspective I have now. I guess that is what my H is saying...the A created a part of him that he would not want to lose (hopefully it's the part that decided he really wanted to connect with me).

With that said, I do expect that at some point he will apologize for the pain that he caused me...but he will never regret the A, nor will he apologize for the A itself. It's hard to accept (and maybe it's just semantics), but I have come to realize that for me it's enough that he regrets the pain.

I tend to agree with Snuggle on the point of obstacles. I worry that you are creating obstacles in the recovery by how you approach things with him and what you expect of him. I don't think he should have a free ride, but I think that you need to look at the things that he IS doing and make sure you are acknowledging those things.

Our MC gave a great analogy...he said if you start a new sport (i.e. loving your W the way you should have been to begin with) and you don't know what you are doing, you will try hard at first. You probably won't do a great job just because you don't really have the skills yet. If your coach is a good coach (i.e. you), she will applaud your effort and try to fine tune your skills without discouraging you too much. You'll be encouraged to work harder and as you practice, you will get better. But if you have a bad coach, she will berate you for the things you can't do and you will have less and less interest in playing the game at all until you finally quit.

Be a good coach! Applaud the effort and fine tune his skills without discouraging him too much. He wants to play well...

HTM

Crap...why do I always have to do all the stuff I'm really bad at?????

Ok, I see your point. I will have the idea tatoo'd on the insides of my eyelids so I know it and remember it always.

So, basically, what you're saying is....help him to help me?! It sounds a bit crazy and hard for me to do. I think genetically I'm just a nasty person. I worry about that. I don't really think I'm nasty, but things come out of me that I feel like I sometimes cannot control. I look at myself and think "who are you?" I believe I do need some type of professional help to get over my anger. I have never, in my life, felt such a strong pull of emotions. Very bizarre. Anyway, today he and I are good. He's back at work, which disturbs me alot. But, I cannot fix that...not today. I really have to find an outlet for all of this crazy emotion. And, knowing part of it is revolving around a three week cycle is driving me nuts. I really have to see about getting this prescription changed for bcp.

I agree that fiore needs to acknowledge the things that her H is doing to improve the marriage and relationship. However, I think that it is a very big deal that FWH continues to work in the same company as FOW.

Does anyone else who is advising her have a similar situation?

The long term posters on this site state that it is a bottom line, basic necessity that all contact be ended and that OPs be removed from the marriage entirely. Some couples have moved out of State to be situated away from the OP.

I suspect that there are long term posters on this site who have stopped posting to fiore because she and her FWH have not implemented this aspect of Marriage Builders. I am not saying that fiore and her FWH should up and move with no prospects of financial security. But I do think that fiore will continue to trigger and have panic attacks as long as FWH continues to work with OW.

I worry about this for fiore. She indicates she can tend to be an emotional person, she has difficulty holding her tongue when she feels something needs to be said. She sounds like a person who is very vested into the marriage, but still very angry about the assault of the A. Add to this the fact that OW is still in the picture. This sounds like a recipe for an unhappy marriage.

I am concerned that FWH is not taking this aspect of the recovery seriously. If he really wants a different job, wouldn't this be the catalyst to get that resume out there and use the head hunter he has a good relationship with?

I just worry that both fiore and FWH are frozen into a bad set of interactions. I hear everyone who is trying to support her and is encouraging her to be positive and look at the good aspects of her relationship. But how many of you still have OW in your marriage?

I don't mean to be rude or negative. I am just concerned and want fiore and FWH to re-build their marriage. I know everyone else who is corresponding with her also wants that. I just think this fact that OW and FWH still work together (albeit with contact reduced to an almost minimum--he still sees her name, he knows what is happening to her job-wise, probably still sees her car from time to time, etc.) is a great barrier to recovery.

What say all?

I definitely agree that Fiori is going to continue to trigger as long as her H is in the vicinity of OW. And I think that both fiori and her H know this.

Reality is just that it takes time to find a new job. Fiori's H is looking, but maybe not as actively as he could. He did make sure that OW was transferred to another building...but he can't just quit cos he's the breadwinner and someone has to be able to bring in the money for their family.

While I think that it will be much harder for her to move past this while H works there, I think that they are both trying to address it as best they can while H looks for work elsewhere. Maybe he needs to be nudged harder to get it done.

HTM

Lake, I think your post is spot on.

Fiori, have you ever read my first thread? some of the best posters here basically didn't post anything other to me than "they cannot work together" when I first got here. and they explained why. you can read it here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=146544&Number=1958883#Post1958883

Your posts very much remind me of my feelings very early in Recovery...panic, fear, stress, obsessing over the OW. Now that I have been to the "other side"...and the anxiety and fear have calmed down considerably...ANY contact AT ALL between my H and FOW would be a deal-breaker for me.

I don't think you would be out of line AT ALL in letting your H know it is a boundary of yours that he find another job. I don't know if I hadn't made it a boundary of mine...if my H would have been so quick to leave either.

Even if you don't think your H is at risk for reigniting the A, you are in a terrible position of trying to stay calm and not LB daily. How can a BS be calm when their F?WS is working with their OP???

I am also not trying to be negative or make you feel bad about your place in R...I am very concerned about you being stuck in this place long-term. Take care of yourself.

You know, this kind of irritates me a bit. I am the one here on MB because I am trying to learn some valuable tools to help heal my marriage after a Ea at my husband's work. Yes, she still works for the same company, yes it is a real sticking point for me. But, choices were made. H is here with me, although it can be difficult at times. Not because we have a bad marriage, but because I can't get past the fear and the insecurity. So, there's nothing I can do about him working for the same corporation. He's there. He will be there for at least a few more months. He will get a new job...this has always been part of the plan. The problems arise with money, security, benefits...I do not believe my marriage is about to end. But, I also do not believe I have a comfort level that has me insisting he change jobs immediately. Yes, I understand the concepts, but they have to be applied in a real life situation. If we were independently wealthy he would have been out of there months ago. But, bottom line...we're not. Once, a few months ago, someone on here suggested we go cold turkey, quit and move to another state. Is this really reasonable? I'm offended that it's implied that people will not help ME simply because OW and H still get a paycheck from the same company. This does not ALWAYS mean they are in denial and still having an affair. I got duped once, but not again. Please, if you have valid stuff to offer me, don't hold out because of this. I can only do what I can do!

"So, there's nothing I can do about him working for the same corporation. He's there. He will be there for at least a few more months. He will get a new job...this has always been part of the plan. The problems arise with money, security, benefits..."

How much effort is he putting into finding a new job, with equal (or better) pay and benefits ASAP?

If he got laid off tomorrow from this job that it's supposedly out of the question for him to quit now, what would he do?

What makes you think he will quit the job in three months?

It is not uncommon for a WS to claim they would be willing to quit their job to protect their marriage, but not really mean it.

And it is VERY common for the adultery to start up again if they continue to work together.

There is a reason you're so afraid, a valid reason, because as long as they work together, your marriage is in danger.

Please don't assume that if you keep quiet and let him keep working there that in any way earns you any respect, he''l appreciate it, or that it will even be effective at avoiding conflict. You're gambling with a VERY hefty bargaining chip here and he won't feel any obligation at all to acknowledge your concesson when his continued contact with the OW at work reignites his passion for her. It's not like he's signed legally binding contract that states you are granted certain guarantees for making such a huge concession.

It is entirely possible and probable (BECAUSE they still work together) that he will get back together with the OW and divorce you anyway, even though you tried so hard not to anger him.

We don't want to see that happen to yet another poster...

This is what concerns me. Why is he paralyzed by the idea? Could it be loss of connection with OW?

I know you're irritated by the posts here telling you that he needs to leave his job. Can I tell you, I was EXACTLY like you? I trusted completely that it had ended. Unfortunately for me and countless others, it was a lie. I was lied to until I was able to expose the entire truth. He could not completely end his connection to her until he was away from her. His behavior sounds suspicious, and you sound too trusting.

fiori,

I don't think there are people here who think they could help you but are refusing to help you. I just think that there are people on here who feel so strongly about the need for "no contact" that they move on to help other posters when they note that a poster is making a decision to forego or postpone "no contact."

fiori, you strike me as a very forthright person. You come here and state how you are feeling. I hear your panic and i just get concerned that the panic is affecting your ability to Plan A, not just for your marriage but also for yourself. To me, Plan A is not just for the marriage, but it is also to make you the person that you Want to be, regardless of the marriage. It just seems like it would difficult to get over the affair and be the best person you can be while you are frequently upset and thinking about drh.

I know it has been hard enough for me to get over a 3-4 Week EA and we achieved "no contact" at 4 weeks after the whole thing started.

When I hear you talk on your thread, I hear myself to some extent. I can't imagine trying to do what you are trying to do. I would be panicing and LBing all over the place.

I just felt this needed to be said. I did not mean to imply that people on here will not help you because OW and H still get a paycheck from the same company. I just think some people believe in the need for "no contact" so strongly that they simply move on to the large numbers of other people on the site who have not yet heard of all of the Marriage Builders principals.

I don't think your FWH is still having an affair, I just think the fact that there is not No Contact makes it difficult for the two of you to get past the A and move on to recovery.

I don't mean to irritate you, you have enough irritants in your life as it is.

thisbitterpill,
I think you are hearing it and feeling it very much like I am. fiori, we only want the best for you and FWH.

Trust me...both he and I know he needs to leave his job. This has been something he has talked about for about the past 3 years. My only regret is that he did not do it before this all occurred.

But, here's a little history on his job situation. H began working right out of college for his father and a family business. This felt wrong to him so he took it upon himself to get a job in the city. He started out at a very entry level position and has managed, over 20 years, to work his way up to Vice President of the dept. He has not been happy since his very family friendly and employee friendly company was absorbed by a large conglomerate about 4 years ago. But, out of loyalty to many people who have worked for him for years, he has stayed. He's really regretting his decision to stay.
For the past 11 years he has worked in some capacity with Ow and her husband. They have been in different dept's and buildings as they are now. Just last year, her husband left her. Because another manager quit, H was given her dept. as his new jurisdiction. Only two months after he aquired this group, her H left for another man. She came into H's office and boo-hooe'd her way into his mind/heart. This is when he brought her here thinking that I'd be able to help her pattern through this troublesome time. He was nervous about his feelings then...I think. Anyway, I picked up on her brazen flirting right away. And, the rest is history. The Ea began in May of 07 and ended in October of 07. But, she continued to persue him until February...then she had a family death. His non-appearance at the funeral stopped her persuit.
So, now they revert back to the way it was prior to the other manager quitting and her husband leaving. He does not share a building. He can go 2 months never seeing her face. She lives in another state so there is no car seeing or train sharing.
At this point all I can do is take it day to day. I can hope and pray that he leaves soon. I have cut/pasted this series of postings to him and his simple response was...
"I will work on it every night until I have found new employment. Please don't worry...I promise you, this is happening." So, do I beleive you guys or him? I don't know...but I can hope all this works out to our benefit.
So, if you have a way to help me, please do. Don't hold it against me that his paycheck and hers are signed by the same corporation.

Thanks Lake.
But, what exactly constitutes No contact? If there are no meetings, no sightings, no phone calls, no talks...
There's nothing. He probably would not have even known about the emails last week if not for me opening them. He knew they were from John and knew he had already spoken directly to John about the problem.

I dont' know. It probably seems like I'm back peddling and making excuses. No one understands the need for him to be at another company more than I do. But, honestly, she's a bit nuts. And, working in the financial industry...I fear she's going to go to the new company he goes to just out of spite. Then what? Well, I'll cross that bridge if it ever comes to pass. Wish me luck.

I did cut/paste what you wrote both over the weekend and today. You've been a good source of conversation for us. He needs to see that folks here are not bashing him but can also offer support to me without putting him out to pasture. He did feel you were slightly tilted towards my benefit, but he totally expected that. So, thanks. I'm no longer irritated. That was a first reaction and I'm glad HTM stepped in to lend me support.

Here are my questions. Since they work together, it would be and should be very easy for her to get his work phone number, right? If she started calling him and boo-hooe'd into his mind/heart again, would you find out? The first time when she call and if those feelings for her come back, is there a possibility that he might not disclose the first call to you for fear of upsetting you? Or he would think that he can handle it or feel bad for her, and thus not make a big deal out of it by disclosing it to you? After the first call, is it possible that she would do a second and third call few days later? After some boo-hooeing and flirting and they decide to go out to lunch, would you know? After few lunches and some more flirting, if they decide to spend some time at a local motel, would you be able to track it and find out?

The question is, what are you and him willing to do to stop this ticking bomb before it goes off?

I think what some are saying is that there is this risk and possibility out there that things will go wrong and possibly end your marriage or damage it greatly if they are still working at the same place.

You are doing ok. I know I am not really qualified to tell you this, but it sounded like you needed to hear it. You are ok.

Don't worry about the radical, fantasy-based ideals. Focus on the advice that fits with YOUR life. You and I have talked about that before.

I think the main thing that I hear from people is that they are concerned that you will not be able to let go of the fear until OW is completely out of your H's realm. And while I know where you are at...I think on some level, people here are right.

I was thinking about it today. How would my recovery be if H still worked nights with OW? What if OW worked in a different section of the hospital but H was there at the same time as she? I don't know if I could get past it either. It isn't so much about what your H is doing (or not doing), it is more about how easily your imagination will run wild with the possibilities. I have enough trouble with crazy imagined rendez-vous between my H and OW and they live 1000 miles away from each other now.

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe you aren't the culprit for not being able to get past this yet. Maybe some of it is the circumstances. Maybe it isn't realistic for you to be able to get past this until your H can put more distance between him and OW. And I know that H is working to that end, but maybe you just need to share with him that it may be the only thing that helps you past this hurdle. While I think it's unreasonable for your H to quit, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to understand that you are triggering because she is still in the vicinity of him on a daily basis.

Remember, be a careful consumer. You need to fit the advice into YOUR life, not the other way around. The people here mean well and I think they are often motivated by the right things (the desire to help people recover and avoid pain), but it can sometimes lead you to question even the things that are going ok.

HTM

I agree that there need to be EPs in place, but I don't know that it is helpful to encourage Fiori to believe that her H will re-ignite his EA. I understand that it is VERY possible, VERY easy, and VERY likely if they have contact, but at this point, he is making every effort to avoid contact.

I do think that the point you make about whether or not her H would tell is an important one. Fiori does need to make sure that she is creating an environment where her H is not afraid to tell her if OW contacts him. I'm not sure if that environment is being fostered right now.

I think you, Fiori, need to work on a positive communication relationship with your H where you both feel like you're on the same team, fighting the same battle...the one to keep your M safe. If you can create that environment, then if OW contacts your H, you will know he will tell you because he is there with you in recovery.

HTM