I've been divorced for 5 1/2 years, and I've been dating a great guy for about 13 months now. At what point do you think a person should have a pretty good idea whether a relationship is "right"? I'm totally committed to this relationship and to him, but I find myself hesitant to allow this to go any further. But, I can't figure out if this hesitancy is because of my past (failed 14 year marriage and unhealthy 4 year relationship) or if it's because of my reservations about him. We are pretty compatible when it comes to core issues, but we've had some problems with superficial issues that annoy me (he acts goofy, etc.) I realize that I don't have to decide right now if this is "it", but I don't want to waste anymore of his time or mine if it's just going to end in us breaking up. Waiting any longer makes it more difficult on us and each of our kids. I keep telling myself, "I don't want to talk myself into this, but I don't want to talk myself out of it either!" (Btw, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm just asking y'all to see if any of you have been in this type of situation).

Thanks! Kim

Maybe just sit down and try making a list of the things that you like about him and the things that annoy you about him. And ask him to do the same. The annoying habits he has are ones that will have to be changed (by both parties) if you have a great marriage. They will drain the positive feelings you two have towards one another as long as you are together.

And, during all of this, don't allow the postitive things to go without mentioning also. Truth without grace doesn't get anyone very far for very long - even if they see their own errors it is hard to deal with.

There are questionairs on this board also about both of your needs, and about the love busters (annoying habits - we all have them) in your relationship. Maybe the two of you could sit down and fill those out, bringing them to each other to go over and find a way to use them to make your relatonship what you are looking for.

Maybe if you suggest this to him as a way to see if the two of you are ready to take this relationship on up to the marriage level? It's worth a try.

Good Luck
RMW

RMW - Thanks! I'm glad to see I'm on the right track! I just printed out all the questionaires on this website yesterday with the intention of having us both go through them. I think you're right. I think that'll help us pinpoint out some very important issues. And figure out if we're willing to compromise on them.

As for the list.... well, I've been working on that list for months! I have a "pros" and "cons" list and a number (between 1 - 10) for each thing on how important it is. So far, the "pros" outweigh the "cons", but, honestly, they're a little closer than I would like....

Thanks for the validation!

Kim

One thing you might think about is more about "process" than content...

Is this individual someone with whom you can work to resolve problems using effective negotiations? Is this individual someone with whom you have some play in the evolution of the relationship? Likely, your "pros and cons" will shift over time, and I believe the ability to grow and flex with the relationship is a mandatory feature of a strong partnership.
Lastly, can you engage in non-defensive, honest, accountable conversation for the protection of the relationship? Express needs and coordinate together to help support meeting them?

If so, you may have a keeper....

Black

Black,

We most definitely work together to resolve conflicts in a healthy manner. That's one of the things I love about this relationship. We can talk about things in a logic manner without resorting to yelling or emotional back-stabbings. But, he keeps telling me "I'm a clean slate!" Well, that's not really possible at 36, and besides, we've been discussing these little annoying things for about 9 months now and I haven't really seen any changes...

Here's more of a concern of mine: we had a talk last night about some of those annoying things. He told me outright, "Kim, I'll do whatever I have to do to keep you. If that means changing myself, then I'll do it." Well, he wasn't talking about changing a certain thing, he was talking about changing his whole personality from "goofy, immature" to a "strong, silent type". I told him that that's not healthy. He should be with someone who appreciates who he is. Eventually, he's going to resent me for changing himself. It made me very uncomfortable. Sure, there are some annoying points I'd like him to change, but it's not healthy to change his whole dang personality!

He is definitely a keeper! That's why I've put up with these things for so long. Someone that treats me the way he does doesn't come along very often.... But, I can't change what annoys me (I tried) and he seems to be having a VERY difficult time changing these annoying things.

Kim

Here is the biggest stumbling block, yes? Here is the crux of any marriage - what are you willing to accept in him, and what is he willing to accept in you? If there's true love, you can 'accept' a lot. My H is very goofy; has no problem making a fool of himself. I never really thought about it, until the last year or so, when D17 started calling him out on it. It embarrasses her, of course. But I loved him, so I never thought about it. It shouldn't be about changing the other person - that only results in resentment. POJA

easier said then done eh?

That's what I'm trying to find out right now. I think that's pretty much the reason for dating! Sometimes I think I can handle these annoyances long-term. Other times, I'm not quite so willing to look beyond my annoyances....
I totally agree. I don't want to change him. But, on the other hand, if I knew that something I did bothered him, I would change it so it doesn't become a LB. While dating, how do you figure out what are insurmountable? I'm still figuring that out...

You have no idea... Sometimes I think to myself, "He honestly cannot help himself! It's who he is!" It's not right for me to expect him to change....

I think it's a flawed relationship. When one person wants their partner to fundamentally change their personality, and the partner seems willing to do so, then I see a codependency in the picture. In a healthy relationship, each person is happy with who they are, and are willing to accept the other more or less "as is".

If you view his personality as a nuisance, you should find someone with a better matched personality, instead of continuing involvement with someone whose personality irritates you - that would be a "gift" that keeps on giving forever.

AGG

I agree. I'm not asking him to change his personality. He's the one who suggested it, which quite disturbed me. I would never ask that of someone. In fact, even for me to get to the point of approaching him about these annoyances was a pretty major accomplishment for me. I usually just try to "get past" things like that... But, we both learned that I'm not doing either of us any favors by holding it in.

But, just to make sure, I'm going to have us go through the questionaires on this website first to make sure we've explored all avenues. (We haven't done them yet because we've both had our children since I found those questionaires). I really do love him. I just don't want my feelings of annoyance to make us both miserable in the long-run. The way I see it, some of his actions are LB's...

Thanks for the guidance!

Hmmm, you weren't very specific with the "issues", but I would not call a "joking" mannerism to be an LB. You may not like it, and that is a perfectly good reason to go look for someone else, but I would hesitate to call incompatibilities "LB's". I guess if you were to marry and you were to be annoyed by these habits, then you could call them LB's, but I think that in dating, what we should be doing is finding someone who is right for us, and if something major is not right, to know to move on. The risk with saying that an incompatibility is an LB is that it creates the expectations that if only the behavior changed, the LB would be eliminated and so would the problem - the concern is that this way, almost any incompatibility can be excused as an "LB that s/he needs to fix".

Anyway, it sounds like you are thinking this through, so good work on that - I'd just suggest that personality incopmatibilities are extremely difficult to overcome, and if he does not realize that, that should tell you something too .

AGG

You're right. I love a great sense of humor. And some of the time, I love his. I could go into specifics, but suffice it to say it's silly things like using words like "snacky" and "lunchy-time". Ugh. I know that sounds so silly, but after a while... it's just not attractive.
You're right. I should use the word "incompatibility" at this point instead. I totally see where you're coming from.

I know. Honestly, AGG, I haven't ever been cared for before like this guy cares for me. It makes it VERY difficult for me to turn that away for a few "incompatibilities".... That's why I'm grasping at straws and posting here and printing out questionaires.... Thanks for helping me see outside my forest!

This is a very interesting conversation to me because it is one of the flaws I see in the MB program.

Not so much on this side of things - divorced and dating.
But on the other side, when you are married and trying to survive infidelity.

Obviously there were flaws and deficits in EN's that got your marriage to that bad place. Plan A is supposed to be about recognizing changes and demonstrating a willingness to change.

Doesn't that invalidate the changes? Aren't they insincere?

Why should anyone have to "change" who they are?

In dating, if there is incompatibility we advise each other to move on and find someone more compatible. In marriage, we advise changing. I find that odd.

I agree, Lexxxy...

There is lots of support and encouragement for marital relationships, but when presenting a dating problem or issue many people tend to advise that the relationship is not valid or worthy of working at.

On my recent thread I was accused over and over by one poster of using my bf as a free counsellor, when in actuality I believe I was behaving in an open and honest way in my relationship. If I were trying to save my marriage I would have been ENCOURAGED to express all my feelings and needs to my husband.....but in my case I was apparently deemed as having too many issues and not "ready" for a relationship.

Perhaps this is because on this side of divorce maybe many are disillusioned and fearful of trusting a relationship again. It is known how hard relationships are, but also how painful the ending of a relationship is. So....if there is not a formal commitment, maybe it seems easier and more logical to simply keep searching for that "perfect" one.

I also think that post-divorce dating relationships have their own set of unique problems that don't exist in marriages, even marriages with difficult problems. All of the same issues and problems can exist in post-divorce relationships, PLUS there is also all the added issues of that are resultant of having been through divorce. So, IMO, it may take even more work to have a healthy relationship than someone working on an already existing marriage.

I know for myself, I am learning to re-define EVERYTHING about relationships. I can really identify with the writer of this thread.....I question aspects of my current relationship all the time. Wondering if my expectations are too high and I should become more realistic, or are they too low and I need to speak up louder about my needs. And I realize that PART of that confusion is that I am still in a re-birth stage.....but I also know that growing and learning will come with experiencing new relationships. And as we grow and become stronger in who we are it will hopefully become more clear and obvious which traits & habits & behaviors are real issues and which ones should pale in the relationship.

Changing people? I'm really skeptical of using those words. Sounds too controlling and aggressive. But how about being open and honest about issues that are good and bad within the relationship? If the words he's using is something you cannot get past, I don't see any problem with discussing it with him. Could it simply be a habit for him to speak in that way? Could it be as simple as learning to put the toilet seat down, or refraining from using 4 letter words?

I find it odd that you equate a marriage with a dating situation. They are dramatically different situations. Would you pay $5000 for job counseling and substance abuse therapy for a JOB CANDIDATE because he was not qualified? Would you invest $10,000 in a new roof in a house you don't even OWN? Of course not, common sense dictates you would move onto a more suitable candidate/house.

That is what dating is: a job interview for marriage. You don't try to CHANGE the candidate to suit your purposes. It is a SELECTION process where you weed out the unsuitable. The notion that she can change some man to suit her is a ridiculous notion that will result in frustration. The goal is to pick a GOOD MATCH. If the candidate is not a good match, common sense doesn't dictate you try and change the candidate, but that you move onto one who IS SUITABLE.

Marriage is hard enough without unrealistic expectations. It is unrealistic to imagine that an incompatible dating situation is going to result in a happy, healthy marriage. Marriage will just cement the traits that made them incompatible in the first place.

Thank goodness we are free to choose our mates in this country, some countries don't have that luxury. But its sad that many women don't use that freedom wisely.

luymyfam, I applaud you for thinking this through before you make a decision, because you are correct, these are the kind of things that can erode love. I don't know if they are minor things but if they annoy you now, they will annoy you ALOT the more they happen.

I hope you take alot more time before you make a decision. I have heard that 2 years is a good amount of time to really get to know someone.

I agree. And, as I've stated several times, I'm NOT trying to change him.

Here's what I find interesting: when I go out with someone for the first few times I always hear "keep an open mind", "give him a chance", etc. which is what I did with this guy. I figured that these little things that bothered me were so small in comparison to the big things that we were compatible in. But, now, I find myself in love with this guy that can sometimes annoy the heck out of me! Then, I hear, "well, maybe he's not the right guy for you", etc. Well, at this point, I'm emotionally involved. It would have been so much easier to put a stop to this before we met each other's children, family, friends, etc.

And I agree that it is more difficult after you've been through a divorce. That's the reason I'm on this website. I don't want to sabatoge a good thing. If there's a way around these minor issues, I want to know what they are. I refuse to go through another painful divorce. The books and articles I've read by Dr. Harley seem very logical and have been helpful to me. I was just curious if anyone else had been in this type of situation. Really, I want to know if anyone else has been hesitant about a dating relationship after being divorced and if they've wondered whether it was because of the person they were dating or if it was the after-affects of the divorce.

Thank you again for everyone's input on this thread!

Most excellent analogy Melody!

BEFORE marriage you should be looking for a spouse who already IS the sort of person you want to be married to.

AFTER you get married (ESPECIALLY if there are children involved) you stop shopping and together continue to build and fine-tune your relationship.

And there are some things, like minor annoyances that you just overlook, it really is true that nobody is perfect.

BTW, a lot of dating, multiple relationships, and living together before marriage has not been proven to be good for marriage (as once presumed). Sometimes all that dating can get people used to the high of the honeymoon period, when you're sort of blind to the partner's flaws, then when the fireworks start to fizzle, you see the flaws and end that relationship in favor of a newer, sizzling, 'flawless' one... And that kind of dating is of course just practicing for adultery and divorce after marriage.

Also, a lot of dating can lead to unrealistic expectations.
A guy who's looking for a wife who has blue eyes and blonde hair like his high school sweetheart, but also has big beautiful brown eyes like that girl he fell in love with, has a great career like some of the women he's gotten involved with at work, but also bakes great cakes like that gal who wanted to marry him when he was in his 20's, is witty and adventurous like his best friend's wife who shared an adultery 'adventure' with him, but will also be sweet, submissive, and loyal to him like that girl he betrayed, is in great shape like that girl who spent several hours per day working out, but will sit around playing backgammon with him all weekend like that girl he had a crush on... simply does not exist.

You are your own person and make your own decisions. It's wise to consider advise of others, but own the decision yourself. As for being emotionally involved, I do understand that. It is harder which is why we should perhaps be a little more critical at the beginning? It's a difficult balance.


I haven't been dating long or very many people but so far my decisions and reactions have been very quick. They have been over minor things as well (one guy was a vegetarian). I have a list of bare minimum qualifications - it's short, I add to it occassionally. If a guy meets that I will date him. Melody's decription of dating as a job interview for marriage is wonderful, though I am not looking for marriage (I'm upfront about that as well). The guy I'm dating now passed everything so far. He does have one thing that I will add to the reject list next time if there is one. He works shifts - I accept that in him due to the emotional attachment (and I knew this in advance - I just didn't know I wouldn't like it) but I won't form an emotional attachment again to anyone who does. It sounds petty, but it does help me avoid the dilemma you are having. I'm sure I'll still have these dilemmas. I think it's part of dating and developing long term relationships.