My concern about the whole ring thing is that you may be love busting and not meaning to. Your goal is to recommit...you don't want H to think that you are giving up.

I don't know that I agree with the idea that H needs to do the work in order for it to be meaningful. I know that my H doesn't mean to, but he's just oblivious to the details. Oftentimes I HAVE to lead him. We agree that if he feels strongly against something, he will tell me...but otherwise, he may just be preoccupied with other things. Not fair, but reality in my M.

I've learned over the past few years that if I need something, I need to ask for it. Sometimes asking for it, means that I make it happen. I had to let go of the feeling that it wasn't meaningful if I had to ASK H for something...like holding my hand or kissing me goodnight. I just had to realize that he didn't THINK of those things on his own. Yes, in a perfect world I would want him to be the hopeless romantic, but he's not. So rather than be upset with him, I recognize this as a weakness and help him to take care of me the way that I need to be cared for.

Just food for thought.

HTM

We do .. That was one of the things that H was lacking as in the am he just awoke and went into work and everyone was asleep. He always wanted me to wake up in the am and have tea with him. pre D day I did it maybe 1-2 times a month. Post D -day 3-4 times a week ( on weekdays) unless I have an had a particularity exhausting day or night and its wayy yyy to early to get up. SO I guess I should count those 20 minutes a day too

I think I really need some time to figure out an accepatable plan. A plan that works for both of us just not me. I dont want to treat him like a horse and lead him to the jewler. I am already made it amply clear that I am bothered by the fact that he does not wear one. Ofcourse fantasy would be if he would be knight in shinnig armour and come up with a fabulous solution all on his own that still has not oocured to me and kiss all the pain away ( yep still a little girl at heart).

Tonight we are sharing our ENQ and under affection I added I would really love it if you would "Take some time to think about and discuss a mutually acceptable solution to the ring issue. I feel very sad about being in a position of me not wearing one. "


Is that clear and not LBusting enough hick ??

Totally clear! The best way that I have found to express my needs without LBs is "I statements." I feel...when you... I like it when you... That way, the comment is about YOU and your reaction, not about his actions.

I use this with my kiddos too. Instead of "You're lying" I say "I don't believe you"...they can't argue with MY feeling. I do a lot of "I don't like it when you..." too. It's a SMALL adjustment to speech, but it makes a BIG difference.

The only thing for me is that my H KNOWS that I am purposefully using I statements and he sometimes feels like the "schoolteacher" is talking to him instead of his wife.

HTM

Let me apologize in advance if this offends you in anyway.

It is just an interesting observation to me that you and I were both hurt and offened by the idea of throwing away symbols of our marriage even though we ended up on opposite sides of the fence in our marriages ( ie, BS vs WS).

I am not trying to question why you felt that way, just trying to understand your frame of mind about the rings so I can better understand my own WS's feelings on the subject.

If he already disrespected the marriage with the A then why would it matter if the rings were old or new to him. He has indicated to me that he does not want to melt the old metal but rather keep his old ring and get a new one to his size and indicated that he was unhappy that I took mine off even thou it fits.


On a more cuurent note I think its a great plan to get new rings for your 10th anniversary its a great opportunity to update the symbols of what you have in a new relationship now. Adding a beach vacation with that with a symbol of renewing vows sounds really really great. I am truly happy for you and you H and comforted by the sucess story of your marrige . Its noce to see that relationships can overcome such a tough situation.

No offense taken.

I own my actions for the past and know that I am in a better place today. I'm not proud of my choice but I know and more importantly my H knows that the way I moved my boundaries during the A will not happen again. We really are better as a couple now...not the way to get here though.

I would say that it was a couple things for me reaction.

1. I am a girl and there is the sentimental side that remembers very clearly how everything happened during our courtship and wedding. Our rings bring back the light feeling when I think of how my head was in the clouds (in a good way).

2. We had good years together and it felt like I would be throwing that time away if we got new rings. I was out (or maybe coming out is a better description) of the fog when it was brought up. It hit me that we both let things slip in our M but I was the one who may have destroyed it but I was recalling that things weren't as terrible as I thought. The ring met to me that there were good things with my H and I during that time which is why it was worth the cr@p to R our M. "Giving up" our rings, to me, met that I was giving up everything before.

Something I think about now regarding our rings...we didn't have any rings for two years while we dated. Getting the new(old) rings didn't change that history. The new rings won't change our good things, or our bad things, but they will symbolize new and improved relationship.


Well it will technically be 9 years this November but I know it will still be great.

We are debating if we are going to invite immediate family. Part of us wants to share with them and part of us wants to enjoy this time to ourselves. We still have time to figure that out.

Getting here wasn't over night but we are both thankful we got here. I think of some of the unfun things we had (failed IVF) and know that overcoming those things and my A really means that there is nothing but brighteness in our future. Yes, it us and how we handle what life throws us, but its nice to KNOW that bad crap is gone.

Life is good.

Thanks


May be its a female sentimental thing of tying emotions to things and memories. The ring is really really is just a chunk of metal ( of couse the diamond is a diamond , it sparkles ) to which I am attaching 14 years of all the memories in my marriage.

It would be nice to see my hubby get out of the fog and admit and realize that I can see that our R was obviously not very healthy as neither of our needs were being met but I also feel that the A really did destroy what ever we did have , and now I feel we are in an intensive car unit taking MB medication to heal . Either the medication will work enough to move us out of the ICU some day we can move to the recovery ward , or ....

And that alone can make a girl smile.


It can only destroy the bad, unhealthy parts of your M.

The good ones will still be there even after ICU.

The bad, however (and thankfully), will be healed in a positive manner.

wmf,

I had issues with my ring after the A, too.

I took it off. I just didn't want to wear it! My H hadn't worn his in a long time - he had gained some weight and it didn't fit.


I also had an anniversary ring he had bought me right before his A, that I didn't want to wear at all. I couldn't be absolutely sure of it - was he in the A when he bought it, or not, I didn't know.....I wasn't positive....he said NO!!!!! But I was paranoid, you know how it is.

Anyway, he was greatly bothered that I wouldn't wear my ring. It hurt him immensely. I said, well, YOU don't wear a ring, so neither do I.

He explained he wanted a ring, but his didn't fit. I just said, too bad. I wanted to wear a ring, but MINE WAS MEANINGLESS.

What a lovebuster, huh?

I crushed him.

He asked about the 30 years before his A - meaningless? And what of the next 30? How could he go on, if he thought that there was no chance? That none of it meant anything to me?

I said it was just a ring. It killed him.

So he started hunting for his own ring, because somehow, it started meaning something to him to wear a ring. He came to me one day and asked me to please wear my ring. I said that I wasn't ready, wasn't sure. He got down on one knee and asked me, with the ring in his hand, to please wear "his" ring again, to be his wife, and wear the symbol of our marriage. Weak or strong, wear it. He put it on my finger, and I have worn it.

He found a new wedding ring for himself on our trip to Alaska, and wears it every day. He asked me to put it on his finger, in the store. We renewed our vows on the trip - he made the arrangements to do that, too.

I still didn't know about the anniversary ring. And then one day I was thinking about it.

The ring has about 40 diamonds in it. Some are princess cut, some are round cut. Some are large, some are small. When you look very, very closely at the diamonds, I'm sure you can see small flaws in this one or that one, while others shine nearly perfectly. But when you put the ring on your finger and hold it up in the sun's light to look at it, the radiance of the ring is glorious. It shines and sparkles with the diamonds all together as one, reflecting beautifully all the colors of the rainbow. The ring is sort of like our married years. Some have been smooth, others rough. Some have been really beautiful, others have had their flaws. If you look closely, there have been some terrible times, and there have been some wonderful moments. But if you hold up the years of our lives together and look back as a collection of memories, it has been a wonderful time, a glorious life of raising kids and great vacations and first homes and laughs and crises and everything that goes into living a wonderful world together.

So I put that ring back on my finger. I have it on right now.



I would say to your husband, "Honey, it's important to me that you wear a wedding ring. I kind of put it up there with the importance of ME wearing a wedding ring. Can we talk about this? When can we take about 20 minutes to just focus on this one topic, so I can hear how you feel about it?"

And then take the 20 minutes, listen to him, and quit talking about it. Hear what he has to say, and then decide. Because he might say something that is worthwhile, and might change how you think about his wearing a ring. Who knows.

But take the 20 minutes to hear him out.

SB

Well said, SB.

I love the analogy of diamonds to marriage. It is true, even the biggest and flashiest of diamonds can have flaws if you look closely...and some of the smallest, most humble diamonds can be absolutely perfect yet nobody notices but the ones who wear it.

HTM

Its scary how I am at the exact same point you were. word for word you are describing my stich ( shudder)

ON one hand this is my fantasy as being the result of what I want as a result of having taken of my ring. On the other hand I am afraid this might happen and I am not sure what my response would be. I am not ready ! I dont want to say "no" to will you marry me again question but I also am not giddy with exciment ready and waiting with a yes if and when the question is popped.

Tonight, we all sat on the couch and watched So You Think You Can Dance. D17 and her friend went to bed, I got ready for bed, MrCat got up and took his shirt off, dropped it to the ground next to the couch, and went into the bedroom! I've ignored this stuff for 30 years, but now that I'm trying to improve and be aware, it's sticking out like a sore thumb.

But the issue is that the fact that he's dropping his dirty shirt on the floor, in the middle of the living room, DOESN'T OCCUR TO HIM AS SOMETHING BAD!

All his life, his mom came around behind him and picked up. She lived with us for several years; by the time she left, I felt I couldn't make him 'see' what he was doing. Just like your H doesn't 'see' what he's not thinking of.

Of course, it can change. IF they want it to. But you can't bet your whole recovery on it. I really think it's a psychological issue. Deep-seated one. FOO.

I tell D17 to clean the kitchen; I come home. I have to get her in the kitchen and show her, piece by piece, all the things in the kitchen that she DIDN'T clean up - the towel on the floor, the pan on the stove, the empty coke can, the mail, the computer cord...she just doesn't 'see' that stuff - she sees dishes in the dishwasher, and maybe the counters wiped off (around all the leftover junk) as cleaning the kitchen.

In other words, YOUR idea of something may not be HIS idea of something. It's not fair to ask him to change the way he thinks. But it IS fair to tell him how it affects you.

Here's another aspect on the rings. We've been married 28 years, together 30. We both stopped wearing our rings about 10 years in - he bent his, I didn't want to spend the money fixing it. I got too fat to wear mine.

We have a 99% probability neither of us will have an affair, and we both know it; the same probability of one of us leaving (despite what I say here). There is little need for jealousy, assigning extra weight to whether or not we wear a ring, worry that either of us will get hit on and return the attention. It seriously has not entered our attention for decades.

What I'm trying to say is the ring matters only as much as you want it to. I realize that when an affair disrupts things, it all changes. But bottom line, it IS possible to have a long-term relationship whether or not we wear rings or not.

Cat person
I agree with you there that the ring only matters as much as we want it you. I am not concerned that because he does not wear the ring it is more likely to reult in him straying.
What bothers me is not that he appears more available with out the ring. What is affecting me is that the rings were a memory and symbol of us having been married, on that day at that time in 1994. It is a comforting physical way to remind ourselves of that act and that memory. Just something to trigger the mind to happier occassion.
Now him not wearing one and me alone wearing one, in my mind triggers a painful thought of me bearing the burden of this marriage alone. So hence I had to take it off.
Now not having one on my finger triggers the pain of having lost something as evident by the bareness,indent and tan line on my finger.
So I dont know which trigger is worse, me wearing the ring alone wearing or not wearing.
Also may be only the healing of the M and R will in the end solve the ring trigger issue I dont know.

I agree that the ring is a SYMBOL of your commitment to your H, but as for making him look less available...I don't agree. My H works in a field where he cannot wear his ring for safety purposes. Sometimes he forgets to put it back on and he'll go for weeks without it on. I told him the same thing...I want people to KNOW that you are married so that they won't hit on you. He told me that he actually has seen a trend and will get hit on MORE if he's wearing his ring, than not.

I don't know if that is true, and I prefer he wear it because it is MY outward reminder of his commitment to me, but if this site has taught me anything it's this...it doesn't matter if you're wearing a ring, if you WANT to stray, you will.

HTM

One of my girl friend's H has said the same thing.

I agree with both of you I dont think a ring on the finger un of itself is either a hiderence nor a welcome inviation to stray or be hit on. I dont think the ring on the finger serves any purpose against or for a R outsite of the relationship.

In terms of the M , the ring to me serves as a trigger of our memories of our commitment and connection. There are 2 wedding rings that were purchsed an exchanged at one moment in time when we were physically together in one room sharing a mutual goal of spending our life togeher. When we are not physically together the ring is a reminder of our mate in life one we chose and continue to choose to spend our life and energy on.

Not wearing the ring does not make me forget that I am married, insted what am I saying is that wearing it gives a warm an fuzzy feeling that I am missing beacuse he is not wearing it and now I am not.

I miss wearing my rings and I hope we can come to an amicabel solution to this soon.

I took them off on Monday and communicated to DH that I have done so and my reasons why, where is explained to me that it hurt him that I did that. I also reiterated to him that I would like him to get one.
Last night (Wed) we shared our ENQs and said in there I love love it if you would "Take some time to think about and discuss a mutually acceptable solution to the ring issue. I feel very sad about being in a position of me not wearing one. "

If he does not do anything about it prior to our call with Jennifer on Friday I will bring it up with her as well.

After that on this particular issue if you think I need to re-remind him again ( read- baby him/ bully him/spoon feed him) on how important it is to me please let me know. If not I think I have done my part in this and now its up to DH to get off his (procrastinating) behind and do something about it.

In the meanwhile I continue to be sad at the loss of this symbol in our relationship.

wmf,

I think you are making a mistake. You are making the ring a hill to die on - a huge symbol of something else.

It has become the symbol of another thing - your true desire.

Follow closely. And you will see what the ring issue is really about IMHO. I have read between the lines.



You've said here that you KNOW he won't get hit on any more or less with or without the ring.

You've said the ring is a "symbol" and that NOT wearing it triggers pain for YOU. So you have purposely taken it off. I want to say that again - you have PURPOSELY TAKEN OFF YOUR RING, EVEN THOUGH THIS EXACT PROCESS TRIGGERS PAIN IN YOU.

Then, you have told your husband of the pain of NOT WEARING YOUR OWN RING.

You speak repeatedly of the "symbol" of the ring.

But in this case, the symbolism of the ring right now is not precisely limited to the course of the marriage, and all that the marriage has entailed. Right now, the symbol of the ring is very different.

It is being used to pull him into your pain. It is a symbol, yes, of how you are feeling about the marriage. You are trying to get him to look at the 14 years of marriage VIA THE RING. You are trying to get HIM to see that you are putting the marriage AWAY FROM YOU - in spite of the pain that putting it away from you is causing you - and then you are showing him the empty hand (the empty marriage) and saying to him:

FILL THIS !!!!!!

Because you are needing him to work on the marriage WITH you.
And you need him to do that, because you have felt as though you are pulling the chain alone. So in essence, you have put the tools down and are saying to him, "Get the tools, and put them on, and you will also need to put the tools back in my hand while you're at it."

This is not unexpected at your point in recovery. Because he has had his "ride", and now you want him to do some of the heavy lifting.

Except...............


You need to talk to him in a different way to do this. Because the way you are doing it, with the ring, is very painful for YOU, and for him.

You can accomplish the very same task in another way. Read the thread I posted regarding body language, specifically reading the rules on how to talk about things - and begin employing the rules when you try to talk about your relationship. You will increase the trust during intimate discussions dramatically, and he will not feel like he is trapped - which is what the ring situation does to a man.

Men don't communicate like we do. I am guilty of this crime, and once I saw what I did, we talked about what it was. And yes, I should have used my own advice, my own method. I was too trapped in anger - pain - panic - desperation. You have a chance to change it, make it right, before it goes too far.

SB

Ok I love how you cut thru the B.S. and get to the meat. I did not see it before and now that you show it to me I see how I have arrived at this point and now am using the symbol of the ring as " I am not doing this any more if you are not doing your share"

Now that I see that , please tell me how I can

Simply putting the ring back on (which I can easily do) will not erase the sentiment that I have. Also taking the ring of might have been harsh but you think letting him know last night was ?
Should I wait a reasonable amount of time before I "nicely" bring it up again. What do I do next so I dont die on this hill?

I think we are making great progress in or R and I dont want to be stubborn and go backwards but like you said I dont have it in me any more to give him a free ride either.

wmf,

So glad you asked the right questions.


How do you not die on the hill that you built?


Humbly tell him you built the hill. And why.


You see, you first need remember that your husband is not the enemy. He has all the same feelings and desires you have about your marriage, and is likely struggling with how to go about fixing the ring thing himself. Only, he KNOWS this means something completely different than what it is presented to mean.

His gut tells him that - because he has that "trapped" feeling that men get when women communicate things this way. Guys know, but they are in this box and cannot for the life of them figure out the right way to answer, what to do, or what to say in order to make it right. So what do they do? NOTHING! When trapped, they give up and wait for the woman to make the next move, in hopes that it will give them a clue as to the way out of the box.

And we women get more frustrated and angry with them. It's a vicious circle. Caused by the way we choose to make our point, and the way we choose to talk about things.


Read the body language thread, and use the communication tips I put in there. Make it a point to read the information about communicating to him - you have to wait the 15 seconds after he stops talking!!!!! Really start practicing the methods, because they are research driven, and they work.

When you think you understand the ideas of HOW to go about having the conversation with him, so it does not turn into a LB fest, tell him that you want to have a calm talk about the ring thing. Tell him that you have a few things to say first, and then will give him the floor. The time you two speak on the issue really needs to be limited to 20 minutes, no more. And get the body language down, girl.

The few things you have to say, and you only get 5 minutes - so practice what you have to say, keep it pithy, and stay on point:

1. You apologize for making the ring thing such a huge issue, and explain that you have given it a great deal of thought.
2. Explain that you understand that the ring is really a symbol of more than you first thought. It has become a symbol of the marriage, and that by taking it off you have been trying to show him that you are struggling with it - that you need his help to put your marriage together with you again.
3. Explain that your thoughts have led you to know that what you need are some ideas of ways he can show you OUTWARD signs of his working on the marriage, and ask him what HE thinks are OUTWARD signs that he has been working on the marriage.
4. Ask him if he would consider wearing a ring and helping you work toward wearing your ring again.

Ask for his response.

Then, SHUT UP. No matter what your desire is to say anything, you sit there and do not speak. You MUST allow him time to gather his response, and you MUST wait him out.

Too often, we jump in and just keep talking - making OUR point, and men feel overwhelmed.

He will get your point. He already HAS your point. This is the HEALING time.

Point #3 above is really for YOU to understand that he has been working on the marriage. Your focus has been so much on your own pain, your own changes, your own work, that you probably have not looked much into what he has been doing. And you probably haven't asked him this question. It's important to understand what the spouse thinks he is doing - because he might be doing things he believes ARE HELPFUL, but they may be missing the mark in terms of YOUR NEEDS. Get it? You just aren't seeing what he's doing because he is throwing knuckle balls and you need curve balls.


Once he has said what he has to say:

DO NOT ARGUE. Let him say his points, and LISTEN!!! At the end of his statements, say, "Thank you so much for talking to me. I want to think about what you've said, and I appreciate your point of view. Let's go and get some (cookies, tea, whatever!)"

AND BE DONE FOR NOW.

See, the point here is to allow him to just say it, you listen, and it is NOT a marathon.

If he asks a question during his speaking time, you answer with very short response, and then return the floor to him - "It's really your time to talk. I need to hear your thoughts, and I am enjoying listening to what you are saying."


Afterward, make the conversation light, and allow it to just "be". Take time much later to reflect on what he said. Then, go back to him and say you have thought about what he said, and ask to talk again. Use the same tactics as before (you will find he will be much more open this time!). State what you have to say, and open the floor to him, etc. Only this time, you get into a little more conversation, because he's more open, and you're calmer. Keep with the time limit, though. NO MARATHONS.

You are using POJA, and the communication techniques. It works hand in hand.


With practice, you will notice that the talks ultimately are very efficient, each of you listen, and you are able to move into a phase where you can have back-and-forth without emotional craziness. Where the conversations are true listening and hearing, and each of you feel very comfortable saying what's on your mind. No more anxiety ridden marathons.


And the talks - the rules - somehow start carrying over into normal stuff. You begin to be a much better listener, and he becomes (magically) a much better talker.

Try it.

But the hill? It starts by telling him that you recognize where you went off track.

SB