Why is it besides a few that most women I meet that actually interest me have major issues and lots of drama? I know like most women watch soaps and how they drag an issue on for years that women can crave and have it mold there life because they want the drama like on tv. I accept that women do that to a %. And I accept men are logical and women are more into feelings. During arguements a lot of women if are backed in a corner with logic will rsort to cruelty and provocation. The thought behind it is if they can get the man to snap he is a jerk and automatically in her mind wins the arguement.

I've seen it in a lot of women from one degree to another. It's not fair to a guy to be put in no win situations. If the guy is right why cant the woman just admit it? I think it is a deep down rooted think they subconsiencly have a strong rooted resentment of men. I dont know if its because the bible favors them sometimes or if it is because basically with acception men have always ruled the world. I have been observing dates and women and comparing notes with friends and the answers are always the same.

Now like I said some worse than others. The ones that are good looking or interest me seem to have more drama than the ones I have no attraction to. But then I've had bad drama from a few of them also.

I'm not saying a certain class, race, or anything is to blame. I notice all classes of women do it.

WHY? When a guy gives it a shot but ends up not being able to take the drama anymore he is a user. Even if he was with the person a year. No win situation sometimes.

I'm not saying a certain class, race, or anything is to blame. I notice all classes of women do it.


Bwaahahahahahahah!!

Well, it seems that you're the kind of person who thinks it's acceptable to 'back someone into a corner using logic' - i.e. trying to get what you want by making the other person acknowledge that what you need is RIGHT and what they need is WRONG because they can't articulate logically WHY they want it. You sound like you sometimes need to win and are not adverse to others 'losing,' or may even need someone to lose to feel like you've won.

However, 'backing someone into a corner' is seriously antagonistic, and when people feel attacked, they'll defend in whatever way they think will work. If the woman you're clashing with feels like your inferior in 'spinning nets with logic,' she'll probably go to HER weapons of choice, usually 'spinning nets with feelings.'

I don't believe people, male OR female, do things because they crave drama and hostility, but because they need certain things (like connection, empathy, autonomy, adventure, joy - all GOOD things) and don't know how to get them or keep them in a peaceful way. People generally resist being put in the wrong (whether by logical or emotional manipulation) or feeling forced do things they don't want to do because of guilt, duty and fear of shame, ridicule or punishment.

Looking at it like that, you should probably be grateful that the women you're complaining about resist things they don't want to do/think/feel with all their might, since if they do the opposite (giving in and being resentful) you'll pay for it eventually, at a much steeper price.

(Of course, you and your friends could simply be having the worst luck in the world by only meeting psychotic and seriously damaged women, but as the old cliché goes: the only factor that's the same in all your relationships is YOU. Seems more reasonable to say that we, as a western culture, kinda suck at getting our way peacefully and are a bit too trigger-happy with the logic and the guilt-trips, hence all the clashes.)

I've always taught D17 that she's more likely to meet a great guy if she looks beyond their looks and popularity; that those guys are usually the biggest jerks cos they get whatever they want based on their looks. Those who are just normal looking people are far more likely to have interesting lives, great minds, better personality, and make a better companion.

Maybe the real question you should be asking yourself is why you feel no woman except the 'good looking' ones are worth being attracted to. That's pretty much a high school attitude that shows a lack of depth in your personality. Something you might want to look into, cos it's going to cause you many years of unhappiness until you get old (mature) enough to realize it's not looks that are important, but a person's nature.

[TJ] Hey WolfDeca! *waves* My feet are doing great! [/TJ]

Sorry Steve, I find your stereotypical generalizations extremely offensive. I am a research scientist, very logical and believe it or not, a woman. Most of the people I work closely with are also women. None of us watch soaps. Lumping me and these other brilliant women into a group of whiney drama queens is insulting and if you are as logical and "right" as you say you are, then surely you can see that.

Speaking of being right and backing someone into a corner, you sound very similar to my WstbxH. His manner of argument was to raise his voice - as if he was more "right" because he was louder. There is nothing "logical" about backing someone into a corner this way. When it happens - which it does even to logical women like myself and my colleagues - we realize that our attacker is NOT responding to logic at all (repeating the same argument over and over despite evidence to the contrary is NOT logic). So we tell them - you are frightening me, you are hurting me - etc. - our feelings.

I'm not saying your "logical" arguments aren't logical, but I've heard this exact same "argument" from many men including WstbxH and in all cases it has been the same thing. Your whole premise that women are not logical is, in fact, illogical. As long as this is what you believe, ALL of the women you meet that actually interest you will have because you clearly have no respect for them.

Edited to add that I mean this as constructive criticism to point out exactly why you are getting the response you are.

My suggestion would be to avoid women like that. There are women out there who are logical, don't watch soap operas and don't use their "feelings" to manipulate men. There are many women who have no use for the drama queen act. In fact, most of my friends are like that. You just have to look a little harder, but they are out there. Be choosy, be patient, and you will find them.

Not a good idea to be arguing or backing a woman into a corner if you expect to pursue a relationship with her. That is a HUGE TURNOFF. If you are doing this, it might explain why you are coming up empty handed.

The biggest issue between my wife and I has been that I have spent too much time trying to use logic to manipulate the relationship, instead of simply telling her how I felt and trying to understand how she felt. People need to feel excepted for who they are by the ones that love them.

Logic doesn't always trump emotions.

Well, let's look at it logically... What is the common denominator in this situation?

AGG

I'll suggest something radical. It has been hinted at my another poster. I have run into examples of what you describe and seem to attract the unstable. I decided to work against my normal attractions by simply doing the opposite of what I'm normally attracted to. Think George Costanza on Seinfeld.

I focus now more on personalities like mine than I do on appearance. While opposites attract, they make lousy partners.

Change your attractions to someone who will actually be good for you rather than who you think will be good for you. Avoid drama. Let go quickly those that don't add value. You value dos not decrease by letting someone go.

Pick and choose what you want my words to mean. Your wrong already. Backing someone in a corner with logic means an arguement winning point. Nothing more nothing less. This arguement winning point can come after hours of defending yourself or nagging. So now I'm the type of guy that will end an arguement with a pint of being right. Then yes I'm a horrible guy.

wolfdeca where did making women do something they dont want to due come in? Did I miss something. Now you are being illogical. Maybe back someone in a corner with logic sounds worse than it is. What I mean has nothing to do making people do anything except when a dissagreement comes up if there is a logical answer and if after I try to see her side and my mind bends every way to try to figure it out then enough is enough.

Tabby you may be logical at work like teachers are at booksmarts but how you act in a relationship who know's. Already you were illogical to assume I yell. I hate yelling and it was the ex who yelled any time I didnt agree. Your way off the mark
and I assure you I'm not the guy you were with however I might feel for him.

No respect for women or is it too much for have given some of them the chance? You can ask dates how I treat them and see if I have no respect.

Melody I know some women are cool that way. I said it in the original post not all. I see you are not that way becasue you didnt get offended by it. If I meet a women like the friends you described I would hope she would see me as a keeper. Because I would her.

catperson you are right about plain people and good looking men however that is not always the case and that goes both ways for men and women anyway.

A) You have to be attracted to them especially if you want long term I believe. Also some of the plain or heavy women I tried dating were not interesting at all and had no hobbies except going out to eat and tv.

b) throughout history I would argue that the most deep and intesting people had nothing to due with looks. Thats a generalzation to say goodlooking men are jerks. Homely and not so good looking guys are stalkers and worse. I dont belive that but I'm showing you what you did.

c) everyone has their own taste and what they are attracted to. I've tried to date people I wasnt attracted to to be nice.

d) I concider myself above average and that doesnt make me less interesting. I'm a very good artist, pet owner, weight lifter , who reads a lot and is into many interesting hobbies. Sorry for the toot.

Thanks book and everyone. I know what your saying and I wont settle down with anyone again unless its the reight woman for me that also feels I'm the right one for her. In the mean time deal with the drama because you dont always see it right away.

SA, when you were talking about women envying men you thought perhaps it was because of the power men have traditionally wielded in agrarian and industrial civilizations. You forgot to mention penis envy.

Personally, I think the drama queens you date are problably the only type that are attracted to you. They like you because you are high drama. Your posts support that. They are full of broadbrush generalizations, egregious cliches and absolutes.

When you stop looking for sizzle, the steak may be willing to come to your table.

"SA, when you were talking about women envying men you thought perhaps it was because of the power men have traditionally wielded in agrarian and industrial civilizations. You forgot to mention penis envy" Hate to sound ugly - but that's the first good laugh I've had all day!!!


Thanks Greengables!!

RMW

No, women do not get my drama but I should be able to vent and give opinions like the women do here. But when a guy tells it how it is I know it's all him right. Never ever a womans fault because they are innocent and guys are stronger.

I will think about it could be me with drama though however I do not act like the women I described to any point. Also what I wrote about somne women and their resentments is true. And I've seen people I know, strangers, and usually to one degree or another what I said I find true. I dont just speak for me. I see a lot of behaviors in women treating men and the man always gets the bad rap. Especially when the women get together to tell each other how bad they have it. Then they try to conform the man into the husband they want and if it dont work there's hell to pay.

I am not perfect I know. But women have to realize just because they think something should be a certain way that it's not always the best way and also not the end of the world if they are wrong. Say what you want about me but I'm a guy who treats women probably too good and I'm fed up.

greengables when you got divorced it was all him right? Was he just so horrible and corrupted your innocent life?

" But women have to realize just because they think something should be a certain way that it's not always the best way and also not the end of the world if they are wrong."

If I remember Dr. Harley's position on this it isn't about anyone being "right" or "wrong". It's a matter of BOTH parties being able to stand in the other one's shoes for a little while. Actually being able to accept and connect on some level even if neither one gets exactly what is wanted. Until being able to brainstorm and come up with a solution that works well for BOTH parties is accomplished, ANYONE can forget having a really good relationship.


I can for the first time actually sit back and listen to someone blowing off on females and not have it make me just as angry as you sound Steve. Have to admit, it took me a long time to get to this point. Sounds like you've tried to do the best you knew how and got spit on every time. Been there, done that. I used to be "too good" to the guys and had them crap on me left and right. But when I finally learned to be good to myself, some of that anger eased up. Plus listening to what Dr. H told me when I asked him how he learned to deal with his hot temper.

But it definetely sounds like you are fed up - with a whole lot. Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books. If not, you might want to try some of them out!

Is there a specific theme or topic that the drama is about?
When you back a woman into a corner with your logic what are you trying to get her to agree about?

Can you give us some specific examples of the arguments you'e had with women? Your logic and their drama?

Yes, I know what you mean. I have recently broken up with a very nice woman, who seemed to like drama when ever things started going well. If we were on a nice date and having a good time that evening? Then she would find some little thing to nitpick about. Was I being loyal? Then she would find some reason to think I was just waiting to cheat on her. Did I treat her very well? She would drag up some past mistake of mine and toss it into my face for the umpteenth time.

I think she just liked the drama of arguing and making up. I on the other hand found these emotional ups and downs not very pleasant.

SteveAustin, I come down really hard on women who suggest all men are controlling, abusive monsters who only want to bed anything in a skirt. I like both men and women. I refuse to base my opinions of on half of humanity based on a few individuals.

How would you react if a woman came on here and posted that she's noticed that most men have the emotional range of a slug in the sun, and that they are so driven by their need to be "right" that they turn any discussion into a debate which only ends when the women conceed that they were wrong, ill-informed, or misguided, and that the man was correct in all points? I imagine you'd think it was pretty harsh. This is a section of your first post turned on its head.

If you really believe most women watch soap operas and want their lives to be like it, it could be because of the type of women you are hanging out with. I can count on one hand the number of times in my life I've watched a daytime soap. I'm not sure if you count TV dramas like The Sopranos and The Tutors as a soap. So I won't go there. The women I know don't watch soaps. We work. We read. We keep a family running. We socialize. We travel. We have hobbies. So, maybe you need to start looking in other places.

Similarly, I don't resent men. I understand why men took political control when peoples moved from a hunter-gather society to an agrarian one, and I'm amazed at the women who broke through the barriers to wield power. I enjoy learning about Abigail Adams, but don't think she should be taught in schools at the expense of her husband. Once again, I'm not the only female who thinks this way. I know at least 36 other women who do, and I'm a bit of a home-body.

The emotional stuff, I have to agree with you on in very, very general terms. However, there are plenty of women who are less emotional. They tend to be older that 25, and I suggest you look for scientist or mathematicians or engineers. Please consider that women are much more fine-tuned to the nuances of relationships, and we are usually fascinated by them. I personally enjoy watching office politics because it's all about relationships.

In closing, you asked about my divorce. I'm very much to blame. First, I rushed into the marriage, ignoring every red flag that we were incompatible. Second, I needed something that my ex was unwilling or unable to give. To blame B for being unwilling or unable to clean up his business mess would be like blaming me for being unable to live with it and remain sane. I was also wrong in waiting so long to leave him. Interestingly enough, I think B thought I was dramatizing all those years when I asked him to go to MC with me, and when I told him I was unhappy. When he finally came up with an alternative plan to going to MC it was that I "stop obsessing" about the marriage and how unhappy I was.