EO,

You are as good as gold with your word...you know that. That's what ticks off H...he isn't, doesn't want you to be that way...be more like him...so he's not the bad guy, see?

In MC, he stated his perception as fact. Doesn't your MC have guidelines on that, a habitual clarification pause, ask to rephrase, something?

See, your anger, to me, shows you doubt yourself, EO. I don't doubt you at all. You don't waver...we set boundaries and we don't enforce...and sometimes, we do. Our goal remains steadfast...to do healthy enforcements consistently.

When you get angry at H's conclusions, then you have a piece of them in your own hand...which you know...let that piece go. It's not yours--you're stealing. You're crossing your own boundary.

And it truly is great information...see, your H holds himself to being okay with promising in words and retracting or revising in actions. That's great to know...that's how he perceives you so that's his chosen perspective and permission, 'k?

Cuts out the gaslighting...because he's truly saying, "Do as I say, not as I do." Which we can work with, not bank on, and choose not to believe...and still love by choice and act from it. No self-delusions, wishfulness involved.

"Ouch...when you state your perception as fact, I hear you outright lying. I know you're not...that's me taking what you say as fact."

Which is why Ouch doesn't say where the pain is coming from. In the past you have said one thing and then done another...you have the perogative to change your mind based on new/more information. We all do. You say you'll enforce and then you don't...we all do. Doesn't mean we're lying...means we aren't enforcing and thanks for the reminder.


Where's the justification? Isn't justification a signal you're tricking yourself? You accept this is his stuff, about him, for him. Not about you. You hurt because you took his truth and made it yours, just a sharp corner of you stuck in your own ribs.

And you know what? So did I when I read your post...big ol' ouch for me. Yeah...in me, too. Listen to the voice in your head saying it's fact, not his opinion...defining you...it's not him saying it (came long before you met H)...it's in you. It's in me. "You're screwing up. You're making him responsible so you won't be." Stuff like that. Not real or true or me.

Not you.

LA

EO,

Everyone's reality is different. Though we may think we know someone rather well, often their viewpoint will be foreign to our own. It may be so foreign that you may infer that it's meant to cause you harm in some fashion, even though that may not and probably not is the intent. Your H lives in his reality and he thinks it's real. You live in yours and think that it's real. You may not think his is real and vice versa. This is were it takes emotionless rational communication to understand what each others reality is. It does not require approval, just understanding in the form of cognizance.

It's obvious to me that your realities are different.

Okay...acknowledge..."This agreement is my active agreement, reflecting my confidence in you, my support of your dream to live in SoCal, and balances my fears and desires, equally. I know we can have a wonderful marriage...an amazing one. This way neither of has to feel trapped, flying without a net or that one is not committed to The Marriage, even when we don't feel like being committed to one another."

LA, I really liked this statement, very honest. I think about the travel, that it wouldn't stab me as much if we were connected, lif we had a working Rule Of Protection. This is where the conflict came up in MC. I said, I need to know that we work on issues to find a solution we're both happy with. H saiys I agreed to move if he stops saying he wants to leave. H says it's a give and take. Okay, but only I can decide what I'm willing to give. It can't be chosen by someone else.


You're too rigid and prudish. - I wish you were less moral so I would not feel inferior, bad and wrong so much.
I think it's partly this, and partly that he still experiences judgement in my nonparticipation in some things. Not mine to own.

You're not the Nina I married - I would probe this one...for truly as said before, who really is? Your essence has not changed, EO...remember that. Your choices have. And you choose each day, so you are new each day.

I heard the quote, "A woman marry a man thinking they'll change him, and a man marries a woman thinking she'll never change." My values have not changed, but I've learned and chosen to live by them more honestly.

We're just too broken. We need to be with people who are not broken. - Here's the red flag to me for infidelity...thinking others make us whole, heal us, complete our voids...you guys are real partners...the rest is fantasy...I believe H has an innate hunger for a constant clean slate.

Here's where it sinks in that I'm not going to "go along to get along" anymore, and he sees this as a huge obstacle, something very wrong and broken. Goes against his belief of what a wife does. I can empathize, it is hard to accept change like that. He may well continue to fight that for some time.

You make me out to be the bad guy - He lives in a world of good guy/bad guy...not your doing. You said this used to be your chosen perspective, if I remember correctly? Now it is not...and hasn't been for a couple of years.

You think I'm a horrible monster. - Still bad guy/good guy stuff...monster/saint isn't any different. Are you hearing the projection here?

Yes, no longer my chosen belief, took a long time! I did hear the projection, too.


You're just not happy. - This is a major DJ...you know you have moments of joy, happiness, soft contentment and peace. Do you speak of these? Fear isn't the antithesis of happy...when we feel happy, we feel fear of losing that feeling within it, simultaneously...your H may experience it differently.

I do speak of the happy times, too, focus on those, until I get fearful when it the environment has turned sour for too long.

You gave me a lot of great questions, and I look forward to asking them.


And from that perspective (guess)...why on earth would you want to be his everything? You want more "you don'ts and aren'ts" projected from him?

That really wasn't what I connected the "being his everything" to at all. I saw that like a connection, a lifeline, that bends instead of breaking. A constant that can be trusted. Like with a brother or best friend, a connection that we can count on together when times are hard. I see how that word, his everything, includes more than what I meant. I don't mourn not being his cause, control, cure.


He is attached to you. You are attached to him. You are each other's partners even when you don't experience each other this way. Comes and goes. When you re-center, KNOW you are partners, allies...you are married. You are each half of the union. Not all or nothing...just a signal you're wishing, riling, hurting...do your trace and share.

LA, I've gotta admit, I've been thinking about the "nothing" in the all or nothing, too. Thinking that looking at the data, that it looks like I may well have chosen to latch onto someone who doesn't want to be latched together in this way, not now, not ever, not about me. That we signed on for two different things. That Buyer Renter thing. Not bad, just different. Like booka says, two different realities.

Be brave and show enthusiasm for your Taker and Giver...bring your Taker to the table without shame, which is without self-image in command. You know you both can be really happy together...in love, respectful...POJA does work.

This is what I mean above, LA, I don't think Renters cotton to there being a taker on the other side. The MC, who I thought was really good, is telling me I'm "asking H to give up his dream, which will cause resentment" by asking him to also consider local work with no travel. Insists that H needs the space to go out drinking with his buddy every week if he's to want closeness with me. The next session is one-on-one; I'm going to get to clarity in this.

Sharing it all...combats the silence, the non-response based on possible response...and breaks the recurring enmeshment

Thanks for this, LA!

Jayne, this is on my checklist today, “I’m not green! I am what I think I am.” Is that cool or what? Just what I needed, when I needed it.

EO,

I like your quote about the general idea of women wanting to change their men and their men not wanting their wives to change.


Okay...a different perspective. What if he means "I miss the image I had of you. Now it's different."?

Which is why in the first stage, the infatuation stage, we aren't in love with a person...we're attracted to what we see in them (best traits from our FOO), which is our image of them...and that image we have of the other is what seems to complete us...which crashes hard in the second stage of marriage, when whole self-images are revealed...and we hit up against accepting each other as whole, separate and equal people, not images. We lose control, don't we, of defining who the other is through our chosen image of them?

He sees himself as broken...and he sees you as broken, too. Accept that as the perspective he's choosing right now. Good question to ask is if he believes you broke him and if he broke you.


Oh, you caught an interesting permission...you hold yourself to sharing your stuff...which means you do share when you feel happy, what it traces to inside you...why focus on those? Why not focus on you? You feel fear when you aren't getting the response you want over a period of time. That's what I heard. So there's duration in the equation? If so, does that mean it's okay for you to feel sour, share your feeling, and not act it out, except for certain durations? Or not too long without reciprocation?


First, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders is not a book about certain people...it's about definite attitudes and mindsets. Not how God created folks, 'k? I want to be firm about my belief because if you choose to see your spouse as one of these, to define him, then you are crossing the marital boundary of respect. And you stomp on his choice of his own perspective and perception right now.

We ALL fear intimacy and abandonment...and neither simultaneously...so you may feel like latching on stronger when you feel abandoned, and push him away from latching onto you when you feel the threat of intimacy (smothered, engulfed, taken over). Attachment isn't about latching...it's the cumulative experience as history of being real partners, in real time, choosing each other moment to moment. Don't do the Pursuer/Distancer dance and please don't define him. You hate it when he defines you. Focus on your own stuff, EO.

Learn to negotiate from clarity...when he said he saw it as a trade off if he would stop SDing, then you would agree to move. See that bad deal at play? When he threatens to leave, that's a Selfish Demand in play...don't trade off anything to get him to not LB. That makes no sense. Stop tolerating SD's. "I don't do threats anymore, DH. If you are choosing to leave our marriage, please do so now. And if you don't, I will understand you are choosing not to."

That's reality. You may want to repeat back, "I hear you are sharing you have an urge to leave, to get away from conflict, is that correct?"

Moving isn't a negotiation to elminate SD's...that's up to him to do on his own or not...you've got your boundary enforcements for SD's...make sure you use them.

Which is why I offered up equitable issues...his big dream to move to SoCal...and your big dream to have him not travel. Not based on your level of fear...that's yours. You would agree to move if you had the three-year assurance of a post-nuptial agreement and travel not to exceed a set minimum. That's POJA...you could get very enthusiastic for all the added reasons...the girls, the weather, the options (so many terrains), things to do and see new together, as a family...long list.

He has a big fear...of not fulfilling his dream. You have a big fear...of him leaving you stranded in a place alone, either by travel or leaving the marriage. Address your stuff and ask.

Don't trade off ENs for LBs, 'k? I can't see enthusiasm in that.

Both of you signed on for marriage, with your own perceptions and perspectives. And you've both chosen to stay married, even today. I ask you to choose to believe he is attached to you, chooses to love you, attached to his DDs and the family...you are all real to him. Whatever other fantasy he is participating in, you're real. The family you both have created together, and the marriage, are real.

You want to honor your Taker better? Then honor his Taker. See his Giver. You'll see yours better, too.

We negotiate actions, not stuff. A reminder. Don't fall into DJing his attitude, his stuff...and don't negotiate changing his or your stuff. Actions and choices. Decisions. Separate.

LA

He says that he realizes that I was messed up by my family. He says he was me that I have all these irrational fears, because of what they did. I see it as I have rational concerns, that I can address in ways that make sense to me. Mine to own. I also have a responsibility to my kids to make a reasonable effort to from unacceptable behavior that I am aware of. The most recent hot point was about showing the kids rated PG-13/R movies. H says this is one of the irrational things about me that I need to change.

Thanks for explaining about the stages; that makes a lot of sense.



I tihnk this is what I'm becoming aware of, this last time. That I DO tolerate it up to a point, when H is travelling. Because I used to have a lot of fear that if I was unhappy when I spoke to him, that he'd respond by overdrinking. Alone with no one to help him if he got in over his head. H doesn't have any history of this, of drinking himself sick to punish me. My mom was a martyr, suffering because of what my brother and I did wrong. It also has sank in that I can't protect him from overdrinking by "behaving better." I can't be control, cause, or cure.



LA, I understand, I have been really struggling with my resentment wall. When we get along, I can experience H as making choices in the present. But when he closes me off, I'm okay for a bit, still, but then it does reach a critical mass and I experience a huge snowball of how severely this man hates me, how extremely he has hated and despised and abandoned me for so much extended time. The resentment timeline, did you do that alone? Together? It was so painful at the time when I did it, but I thought the benefit would be that I would no longer carry this stuff with me. I did feel better for a while. It's hard to stay in the forgiving myself mindset when I'm still not effective enough protecting myself in the present. I have a lot of resentment against myself, all the times I pressured myself to accept unnacceptable behavior.

When we do connect, it does feel like a clean slate. Have any of you experienced that, too?


I hear you, LA. The words you put in Aeri's thread really reoriented me to present moment.


Makes a lot of sense, why I have no enthusiasm for it. That's a great idea, to think about what I would like on the negotiation table. I will think that over. Like the travel. Last year, he said we could have another baby, but as much as I would have loved to have another one, we both know that's not reasonable for us, for a slew of reasons, so I accepted I'm done with that.

I hear you about the Boundary enforcements for the SDs being separate.

EO,


Let's get rational and irrational fears defined for ourselves.

Fears are. They come to us from our beliefs. So when you trace your fear, do you find a reasonable fear or an old, reactive and unreasonable (not truly related to reality right now) fear?

An unreasonable fear...that the sky is going to fall down today and everyone will die. See, it was reasonable when you read Chicken Little as a child...brought that idea into your reality...not reasonable now.

Check your beliefs. You have one that says, "You do not want your girls exposed to adult content before the age of what, 13? 16? Or is it you don't want your girls exposed to adult content when you aren't there to answer their questions, hear their impressions, their fears and reactions?"

I'm totally behind you on how important doing our best so our kids are given age-appropriate materials. However, I know I can't stop their exposure 100%...just what's in my control. And I know that's definitely a POJA parental issue...movie by movie, not one blanket agreement established one time--not one rule fits all.

Rephrase to re-center yourself: "H believes I was greatly influenced by my FOO and sees me as having irrational fears of him doing the same things they did."

Removes blame...doesn't blame FOO and brings it in context to where you have power right now. Each have previous, deep influences...easy to snap back to our child's mindset, as if it were still happening now and it's not. You have caught yourself over and over again...that's terrific. Took you decades of snapping back there, will take some years snapping back out of it. Don't dog yourself. Understand that there's something added in your equation, the element of time, into your permissions...okay to cross that boundary for two days or two weeks, but not longer. Can you hear that?

Okay for me to feel sour, act out my sourness, see my environment as sour for six hours before enforcing my boundary around myself.


We share this, EO. I do understand really well. We were spousified, made emotional partners with our parents...makes our real partnering relationship at times very messy, reactive. I hear you. And reminding ourselves of God's design is the antidote, to clarify in ourselves...that's not real...there are no martyrs in our family for our family. Only in God's service.

We are equal spouses...and we watch ourselves really carefully to NOT spousify our children.


When we get along...when you perceive your partnership as getting along...doesn't mean you are...means you're experiencing what...less intimacy, absence of conflict, distance...what does getting along mean to you?

We did the resentment timeline at the same time separately. He wrote five sentences and I wrote 8 pages. Wasn't a group exercise. I, obviously, was the one with a long-standing resentment issue. And those 8 pages, single-spaced, were purging for me...took that many recollections, descriptions, over and over again, to really see MY part...where I chose to through my own actions to create, nurture, maintain and DEFEND my resentment. So I didn't just feel better...I felt great...greatly relieves, ashamed, sorrowful and embarrassed...and free. Finally free. Doesn't "cure" me of my habit to see my pain coming in from others rather than myself...doesn't take away my desire, at times, to miss, crave that righteous feeling as I resentment and point fingers...I will still fall into it when I stop minding my own store.

It's always there, a part of me...served me for so long...as a false payoff...a really old coping skill...wanting to lay out DH into two-dimensions, label him, point to him so I could make him stop hurting me...I do understand...I still hear in my head the MC saying, "Yes, as intimate as he is able" and wondering what that meant...that's my resentment reaching to justify...and I know that signal...shows I'm resenting, hiding it from myself...doing that drug behind my back, thinking my partner, God's creation, is incapable of something.

What makes this any different than when my DH used porn to make others (humans scared him) two-dimensional, label them down, feel superior, in control, justifying and that false payoff? And had for decades? Resentment was exampled to me as the way to live and be...so was porn to DH. They both have fantasy payoffs...they distract and distort reality, distance to protect...and no one really is protected, are they? Harm all around.

Would you see if your duration for boundary crossing and reacting to fear coincide and collide with resentment creation?

Growing up, we acted from fear; as adults, we desire to act from love. We can get very murky in reacting from fear in the way we love and connect...and disconnect.

Not irrational or unreasonable...our old habits from old beliefs...diggem out, EO.

There is no protection, EO. There is you doing and not doing...both from choice. You are in God's hand at all times...you are safe. You are vulnerable to other humans (hence, can connect to God) at all times, too. You are no different than I am...we are all within the confines of God's design...no one is exempt.

Do your resentment against your own self timeline...wow, I hadn't thought of that...I'll do it with you, 'k? Maybe that is what I didn't let go before, eh?


Oh, yes, I do experience that with DH...clean slate...unknown and okay with being unknown...for we are together, fulfilling our purpose...to know and be known...thanks for reminding me in a fresh way again.

I'm guessing you are at the place where you want to battle the voices in your head now more than battle the voices outside of it (like H's)...am I close?

LA

I want to excavate whatever it is that keeps me isolating and making the same mistakes again and again. I do confuse my voice in my head with H, all that change-back behavior from inside and outside. I felt like I was getting so healthy, that time on my own, then I get back into old circumstances and respond with old scripts. Argh!

That book Emotional Alchemy has a lot of good stuff about the way you react the same way as from childhood because of brain synapses, how the reinforcement of actions strengthens those synapses over others, so they are stronger, hence they come to you (the bad responses) first; you have to purposely work to stop those and develop new, better responses. But the mindfulness helps you do that.

Had a really good IC session. He does not think I need ADs, because I recognized the problem and changed course, got back into my routines. And I do feel a lot better than earlier this week. Finally getting my focus off H.

There is a group of adult content I don't want the kids exposed to now, and it will be a smaller group as time goes on. There are some things, like historical atrocities, that DD12 has learned about in school, and she felt free to come to us with her impressions, fears, and reactions. She's also had friends confide in her about severe depression, suicidal thoughts, and cutting. It took a lot of processing for her.

"H believes I was greatly influenced by my FOO and sees me as having irrational fears of him doing the same things they did."

I think more, he sees me as overprotecting the kids from what he preceives as harmless, like the media, like going to places like Hooters, and so on. One way to protect her is to let her see things with the safety of having us there. There are lots of things I feel that way about, too, like the things she learned about in history. But others things I think it is a reasonable precaution to wait until they older and can give it more perspective.

Understand that there's something added in your equation, the element of time, into your permissions...okay to cross that boundary for two days or two weeks, but not longer. Can you hear that?

I see that my boundaries don't have the time element, but the permission that I gave myself to enforce them did. That belief that maybe this will be a one-time thing, maybe I don't have to say something uncomfortable.

I keep getting handed this in other situations, too. At work yesterday there was a huge blowup, and the manager called us in together to discuss it. One coworker yells at and berates two of us other coworkers. A loose cannon, he's done this to many others, too, in the time I've been there. The meeting was the three of us and the manager. I felt very intimidated and bullied and unsafe to answer the questions about the unnacceptable behavior when the tensions were so high. I'm going to go today individually to my manager and clarify. I think it would be more fair to give my coworker fair warning first, but I am just too intimidated at this point. Back when it was a smaller problem, I was too timid to say anything, tried to wish it away.


Thanks, cat, you're right, it sure does!

This is true. D17 had a CD that had a song on it I didn't like. I asked her to give me the CD, and told her that I'd let her have it when she was old enough to understand the content; waited two years. She was fine with me protecting her that way. On the other hand, I believe in exposing them to everything while they're at home, so they can get your opinion on it. I have found that she really believes what I believe because I've explained it to her; I hear her telling other people stuff, and it's like it came right out of my own mouth; she has no idea she's doing that. Like Hooters. Going there, and talking to her about what it represents, was a great learning opportunity. We talked about who it attracts; what they get out of it; how the girls might feel who work there; whether it's immoral; who it is or isn't hurting; all kinds of moral guidelines she got out of that one visit to Hooters.

And the Holocaust. She said a couple months ago that maybe Hitler wasn't that bad, she'd read some of Mein Kampf and thought he was really smart. We talked about what happened, and she felt maybe it wasn't all his doing. At my mom's, she found a book called Holocaust, and I asked mom if she could borrow it. We both read it (great book, btw; I'd recommend it for your D12 when she's a little older), and she understands now how everyone got sucked into something no one thought possible, and now she understands what Hitler really was.

From what I've read, I think you're doing a great job raising them, but I would also recommend expanding her experiences so that none of it is exotic and enticing to her. Make things like Hooters no big deal, and it won't be a big deal to her.

Cat, we all have our comfort level. I would not feel good about taking my 7 and 12 year old to Hooters and talk about their values. Personally, I don't know how women feel who work there, bending over and smiling when extended family make inappropriate comments. I could only DJ and speculate. I used to just cringe, and I stopped going a few years ago.

I do talk with them about appropriate dress like when we're at the beach, if I see someone dressed modestly and strikingly beautiful, sometimes I do point that out to the kids, that you can be beautiful without wearing things that make you feel uncomfortable.

Cat, I didn't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with people who like going to Hooters going there. Just saying that's not where I enjoy being. Especially with the creepy comments part. That's okay with me, there are tons of places that I do like to go to. Also, I live in South Florida, and peple dress diffrerently here, so I have some good friends who are comfortable with short shorts or short skirts and half of their chest hanging out over the "neckline" of their tank top. You might feel more comfortable like that when it's 90 degrees outside 8 months of the year, too So the kids do know that some people are okay wearing different things, and that's cool, too. As a choice made from a personal comfort level, not a peer-pressure fitting-in.

EO,

I'm backing you on the non-Hooters decision and I don't think it has a thing to do with FOO.

When I was growing up, my parents did not take me to bars. Bars showed me adults drinking and acting stupid. I saw enough of that at home.



There's a reason they made "family restaurants"...without bars...without cocktail-dressed waitresses...so the whole family could come, any age.

If I'd had daughters, I would not take them to Hooters--it's unnecessary. They can go on their own when they're 18, if they'd like...they could work there, even. Not on my watch, 'k?

Same for my granddaughters...I don't want to "normalize" what I don't want their normal to be in their lives. I can't control what else they are exposed to...they have parents and another grandma...a big family. I can just do my part.

See, as a parent of much older children, I see where I failed to protect them because I was looking to protect them from something else, instead. Harmless? What about influence? ODD is wide open (verging on teenhood) to outside influence...her door will widen over the next three years to others, and narrow rapidly to you and H.

I don't believe we can see harmless and harmful in clear lights...just extremes. A single movie, image, song, book...they can affect for a lifetime...so no, you can't really overprotect your kids--they are going to be affected.

You just get the extremes, pretty much, and while looking at the outside stuff, you can miss what affects them most...your marriage, half yours, half his...and that is undoable, in my experience.

We all do our best...don't put your desire to protect your kids ahead of your marriage...protect your marriage first...which means to POJA together your parenting decisions...speak when you perceive your concerns are being discounted, dismissed, or when you feel provoked...it's not all on you (that is where I see FOO); you're half. Takes both of your perspectives, perceptions, beliefs, experiences and thoughts for balance, understanding and parenting.

EO, Cat laid it out so well...retraining our neural pathways takes time, repetition...and you're going to continue to slip back, spring forth, re-center...you WANT your DDs to see you make mistakes...teaches them how we amend, learn and the same mistake in hindsight looks very different in the present.

Thank you for clarifying the time-delay granted for you to enforce boundaries. I'm really concerned about this, EO. A one-time thing? How powerful are you? Each crossing is an opportunity for intimacy, fulfilling your promise to yourself (after breaking so many, which CA does, repeatedly), and an opportunity to inhale a dose of reality.

Why deprive, mitigate or twist based on a criterion of once, twice or ever as permission to NOT do what you promsied to do? Would you say comfort/discomfort has been the main determining goal you've had throughout most of your life?

In your workplace, I can see the PTSD showing in your description. You sat frozen in the meeting yesterday as you have in the livingroom, too...it's a replay. What happened when this coworker yelled at others in your hearing?

Your timidity is not caused by bullies. A hostile work environment is what your company is risking. You have the same rights at home that you have at the office...someone is verbally assaulting you, call the police.

Even in a meeting...speak up. I think you're reinforcing those old connections by choosing your actions based on your emotions, your fear...and the rest of the time, choosing from your beliefs.

You can take a video camera to work, keep it locked in a filing cabinet, and when this coworker AO's, you can calmly bring it out, turn it on and point it at them.

You don't have to be great with words on the spot...use your creativity (you are creative) and come up with what you're willing to do for you...btw, when this coworker yelled at others, did you think that was a one-time boundary crossing?

Boundaries get crossed. Not bigger or smaller problems; ergo, not bigger or smaller problems. If it was a smaller problem when this person did it to others within your observation, then you have a problem with your two-way street understanding.

What you see someone do to others, they will do to you, too. Same boundary, same responsibility. Human design.

I now believe self-deception is an integral part of resentment.

LA

eo, that's cool. I don't go to Hooters either, except for that one time, and I was disappointed with the limited menu so have no reason to go back. Anyway, we must have different kinds of restaurants here, because at ours, if you didn't look at their costumes, you'd never know you weren't in a Bennigans or TGI Fridays. Never heard a single comment, never noticed anyone ogling anyone, in fact it wouldn't have even been brought up if I didn't point it out to D to ask her what she thought about their uniform.

Maybe it was that one event, that discussion, 5 years ago, that developed D17's modesty. Except for swim suits, this is the first summer she'll even wear anything that shows her stomach; she sees no reason to wear revealing clothes, thinks you don't attract the right kind of guy that way. We ran into a friend of hers at the mall the other day, a pushup bra and a shirt almost down to the nipples. I asked her later what she thought of what the girl was wearing, and she said she felt sorry for her, that she thought she had to dress that way to be attractive.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I agree with protecting them, but there's a fine line in there somewhere on protecting them and thinking you're keeping them from finding out about it. Which of course is pointless. You know the old adage about the preacher's daughter. The more you shine a light on something, the less interested the kid will be and the healthier the opinion they will make on it. Just human nature.

We all do our best...don't put your desire to protect your kids ahead of your marriage...protect your marriage first...which means to POJA together your parenting decisions...speak when you perceive your concerns are being discounted, dismissed, or when you feel provoked...it's not all on you (that is where I see FOO); you're half. Takes both of your perspectives, perceptions, beliefs, experiences and thoughts for balance, understanding and parenting.

Yes, my half. I do get it that H is protecting them, too, in lots of other ways, valid, even though it's not the same areas as me. For example, he's dealt extensively with skin cancers, so he's protective about the sunblock. Me, too, but he remembers before I do about the reapplying every so often. We have a united front when we are connected. Fortunately, H's resentments about the movies came out in the MC office, and on our own, as sharing his perspective. Not as an argument, or with the kids involved.


EO, Cat laid it out so well...retraining our neural pathways takes time, repetition...and you're going to continue to slip back, spring forth, re-center...you WANT your DDs to see you make mistakes...teaches them how we amend, learn and the same mistake in hindsight looks very different in the present.

I did talk to my manager, shared my perspective, apologized to my coworker who was yelled at about staying quiet instead of particpating fully at the meeting. I planned to talk to my other coworker, the one who was yelling, to let him know that it does bother me, and own my action, the saying so little to him one-on-one when this was a big issue for me. He left early today, though. I practiced with IC last night, so I wouldn't be so afraid.


Thank you for clarifying the time-delay granted for you to enforce boundaries. I'm really concerned about this, EO. A one-time thing? How powerful are you? Each crossing is an opportunity for intimacy, fulfilling your promise to yourself (after breaking so many, which CA does, repeatedly), and an opportunity to inhale a dose of reality.

I'm concerned, too. It's taken me so much effort to be O&H with H, when the stakes are so high, when I have so much more familiarity with him. It is very hard for me to approach a coworker that I don't know all that well and who I have very little reason to trust to open up to him like that, with my O&H, with my request for him to stop yelling. Especially when he's angry and puffed up. I hadn't prepared myself to deal with it on the job. So when it started, it felt safer to minimize and justify it, than to accept and acknowledge out loud and identify and take action. I have acknowledged this now.


What happened when this coworker yelled at others in your hearing?

They went to the manager, and avoided projects with this guy. I tried avoiding projects with him, too, but he tells the manager that he wants me to work with him on his projects.


I bought a voice recorder, for the Tools to Life program that jayne recommended. I made a self-help tape of affirmations and visualizations, and an exercise tape, again of visulaizations and affirmations. I listen to it on the car on the way to work and on the way home, and keep it in my purse. So I do have it. I recognize though, that I feel very resistant to bringing it out in a case like that, though, when the tension has already reached that level. I think I would feel safer to start taking a walk at that time, the way I do at home. I am glad to recognize that there are many things that I can do to protect myself.


when this coworker yelled at others, did you think that was a one-time boundary crossing?

That's interesting, no, I didn't think it was a one-time crossing. But it felt like not my problem to own. There are times I do speak up, like when I've seen small children being abused. But my coworkers, I felt they were adults and would let the manager know when it had been enough. Actually, there was one incident I felt very badly about not speaking up. That was my sign.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I agree with protecting them, but there's a fine line in there somewhere on protecting them and thinking you're keeping them from finding out about it.

I know they're going to find out about it, but I owe it to them to not immerse them in it myself, like driving them to and paying for movies I don't approve of for them, like Harold and Kumar with the OS jokes.

EO,

Sounds very healthy to me...and I believe God provided your workplace conflict to bring a lesson around again. You know now you compartmentalize...what happens at home is at home; work is at work; out in public is public. Funny thing, though, we bring all of ourselves everywhere...and all those places have people.

You discovered something about yourself...and you saw where you chose to seemingly avoid and then hit the unavoidable. You still have permissions to avoid...which is different than letting go. I believe this is part of why you still experience not feeling safe, feel timid and done to and bullied.

Usually, when we feel we've fallen back, failed our new expectations of ourselves (with our new knowledge and awareness), we're ready for another leap. That's my opinion.



Got your ballet shoes on?

It's okay to state your stuff with ownership at any time...when you hear "Not your place" or "not your business" "not your concern" examine that signal...it's your fear talking...check it for respect of self and others...doing your breaths and checking your focus. Sharing your stuff doesn't do harm. You've been taught it does. Unlearn.

LA

Thanks!

I wanted to share a few things I feel REALLY good about.

This weekend, H threw a shot at DD12, why does she have to eat so much. Instead of isolating to another room, I tried staying present with H. Told him that he is important to me. That I want to hear what's bothering him, and that I'd like to do that respectfully. It really reinforced to me the separate and equal. That I am physcially and emotionally safe. I am not saying that I expect myself to always be able to respond this way, I still have my boundaries, and if it continued, then I can still have the option to remove myself.

Yesterday, H went to get a haircut, and came home with something completely different than his usual 'do. I'm not a big AS person, but wow, he looks SO good! Even our friends told him, he looks like 10 years younger. The kids and I kept going up to him to touch it

Today, I asked H to call the MC to reschedule for next week, because we had made another appointment at the same time without realizing. While they were on the phone, H also set up with her for IC appointments, too. Just last week, he was telling me every day that I go to too much counseling, that I'm not THAT ill. So I really didn't expect this. I'm really happy for him, because I think it's a really safe environment for him to work through some things.