Well folks, I have a MB moral dilemma here. I am unsure of what advice to give a friend of mine who is in a crisis.

He is a fellow MD whom I have known for 15 years. He has been married for 12 years and has three beautiful children, onf of whomm I am the God father of. He is an impeccable man, church going man, and probably the finest surgeon that is in my group. He recently confessed to me that he has not be in love with his wife for many years. They have been to church/pastoral counseling and professional marriage counseling (not MB's)...with no success. There has NOT be an affair and it appears his wife is just as unhappy has he is with the marriage and has asked for a separation. He tells me that he and his wife have fallen out of love many years ago and stay together for the kids and for appearances.

Now, he is a very sincere and trustworthy person, whom I know would not cheat on his wife. He has stayed unhappy for many years trying to be "a good guy".

How do I counsel him? Is there ever a time in a marriage when there is NOT infidelity where both partners simply do not love each other anymore and do not desire to "try" any longer?

When does one say enough is enough.....? Has this issue ever cropped up here in MB....given that most issues here are involving infidelity. That has not happened in this situation. I know his wife and she is a very good and honorable woman.....but I also know she is not happy with her marriage to him.

What say you all. we are meeting for dinner Tuesday night to discuss more. I do not know what to say to him. He values my opinion highly, but I am afraid to guide him in the wrong direction. Please help me help him.

Sincerely.

Lemonman, MD

From what I have gathered,

They used to be 'in love' or they would not have married.
They would like to be in love again or they would not have made the effort they have so far.
They have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they tey MB and it works for them.
It would only take a small amount of time out of their entire lives.
Should it not work, they will be able to walk away and honestly say they tried everything.

JMHO

LM, I would tell him that it is very possible to fall in love again if he follows Dr. Harley's program. Dr Harley understands WHY people fall in love, why they fall out of love and can teach a couple how to create romantic love for each other. This guy is brilliant and is a master at it. My H and I attended his MB weekend in May 2007 and we are more in love today than we ever were, despite the fact that my H had an affair.

Most people that come into MB have fallen out of love, whether there is an affair or not, though. This program CAN turn that around. I don't say that lightly. I did not believe it myself when I first came here. But I know it is true because I have seen it time and time again and have experienced it personally. The man knows what he is doing.

While there are no guarantees, your friends won't lose anything by trying it out.

I would print out Dr. Harley's basic concepts: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

How Dr Harley learned to save marriages: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8118_real.html

And get this book: Fall in Love, Stay in Love http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6015_fall.html

If they want to do it right and get the most out of all this, I would suggest going to a MB weekend. Dr Harley teaches it, and from there launches a home work program that is monitored by his staff and supervised by Dr Harley. The couple would have DAILY access to Dr Harley on this website.

Most marriage counseling is USELESS because the typical MC doesn't have the slightest idea HOW to save a marriage. They have a DISMAL success rate at 84% failure and are little more than divorce facilitators. Dr. Harley is very different. He knows what he is doing and won't waste their time.

He can help them fall in love again, LM.

I believe one of the the most important reasons for a couple to stay together is for their children, and for the grandchildren yet to come. You may disagree, but that is my belief. A family should not be fractured. A fractured family is far more far-reaching then the "in love" feelings of the individuals.

As you and everyone here knows, love is an action. But ya can't just go preaching that and expect to be heard.

I would ask him of the legacy he/she wishes to leave for them.

There is a tape here called, "fall in love, stay in love" that might help.

If they could look out into the big picture, and all that a divorce would entail to their loved ones, they might be inclined to do the actions necessary to regain intimacy or "in love" feelings.

I hope so any way.

Not too much you can do when someone in a marriage has decided they have had enough, except perhaps offer an opinion that might inspire them to give it another really good try.

But still you have to support your (non wayward) friend in what he chooses in the long run, it seems.

Hard place to be.

ok, there is a weekend seminar next weekend in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Here is a video clip of Dr Harley about his weekend seminar, explaining how to FALL IN LOVE: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi011_dates.html

If they learned what each other's most important EN's were, and worked at meeting them, they would feel 'in love' again.

Do they spend at least 15 hours alone together?
Do they go on dates with each other?

Being bored is not a good enough excuse to end a marriage - ESPECIALLY a marriage with children. Being bored is often analogous with being lazy IMHO. If they divorce you can bet they will each fix themselves up with weight loss, new wardrobes, new hairstyles, and spend money and effort on the new people they meet and date. They will fall in love with new people BECAUSE of all that effort. They are no longer in love with each other BECAUSE they stopped putting that effort into their marriage.

It is being more and more advised these days to do all you can before divorcing, to 'earn your way out of marriage' by first working on the marriage.

Somebody once said marriage is like bread - you have to get up and make it again every day.

And just because they went to marriage counseling, that doesn't really count for much since so many counselors have such a bad track record with saving marriages and sometimes actually encourage their patients to just give up and go find an OP!

Suggest that they read: His Needs/Her Needs.

Also, people SERIOUSLY underestimate the damage it does to children to destroy their family with divorce!!!

It's bad enough when people divorce for reasons like adultery, but to do something so cruel to your own children just because you are bored is IMHO very selfish and irresponsible.

If they're bored, guess who is to blame? They are. And they CAN and SHOULD do something about it. Pretending that their only two choices are staying together and remaining bored (borING) or separating only to put all the effort they could have and should have into a new elatiosnhip, is a lie. They DO have a third option:
making their marriage satisfying and interesting.

They have neglected their marriage for years and this is the result. This is usually what happens. And of course counseling is unsuccessful, it always is.

Ok, just to make sure, please tell me she NOT SAY any of this:

1. I need to separate to "get some space"

2. I love you but am not in love with you

3. I have been unhappy for YEARS [odd rewriting of history even tho he has evidence to the contrary]

LM, I would ask him these questions to make sure there is no OM in the woodpile. You wouldn't believe the people who show up here whose spouse is in an affair and they have no idea whatsoever. Many people are CLUELESS about it. An affair needs to be ruled out.

I agree with Mel - send him to MB.

Hiya Lemonman:

Wow, for your fellow MD to both confide in you and ask for advice is a very high compliment indeed.

I have some observations that may be useful for you. Given what you two do for a living, I suggest that you both are fully aware of the chemical basis for "Love" in its various forms. Falling in or out of live is simply "triping" the right receptors, to take the mystery out. If either of your friends, the male or female is under the illusion that PEA based infatuation is the basis for long term "Love," then your guy needs to take another look and see how oxytocin works and how PEA fades away.

I suggest that it would be easier on the both of them if they would be able to fall in love with EACH other. While that takes some of the new good parts off the plate, I suspect that they have reached an age where breaking in a new partner and all of the adjustments that go into that process, would be more irritant than pleasure once the new wears off and the new bad parts raise the ugly. And given that both are likely intelligent, they should recognise the common sense of that likely scenario. Yea, and I have heard all the "I'll never marry again," baloney too

Moving on to take the science out of the equation, I urge you to suggest Harley and the Harley coaching center as a start. Mel is correct, they got married at one point in time for a reason and unless that reason was eyeball versus money, I suggest that there are emotions waiting to rekindle that would help them. Conventional marriage counseling is worse than worthless. I interviewed a dozen and found exactly two that were worth the power to blow their brains out and the other ten were not even that good. Well, to be honest, the two I found, one a friend and the other one a full PHD with a Christian background, were very good. And the others WERE that BAD. So frankly, unless they are lucky, the Harleys are simply the best bet.

Given what your friend does for a living, I suggest he might want to think about how he organizes his time if he elects to pursue his current wife. A relationship does take a bit of time, and that is something that is not always available to a busy doctor unless he makes it a priority.

I have a couple of questions; Are either grossly overweight? Do they both take care of themselves? How many kids and what ages? Does he understand the financial implications of a divorce? Does she (no bed of roses even it it looks good on paper)? Do you think they have a reason to stay together? In your opinion, do their personalities at least sort of get along? Do you think their original marriage was based on mutual attraction for each other as opposed to money versus body?

The key question is, what the heck do they have to lose trying out a proven method of success most, but not all, of the time?

Larry

LM,

"Staying together for the sake of the kids" is a slow death. At least with infidelity there is a huge wake up call that is difficult to ignore.

What happens after years of this? Well, I can tell you what I see in the marriage of someone I know well. She loathes her husband. She is happy when he is gone. She stays away from him as much as possible. She plans at least two weeks per year when she takes the kids on vacation wtihout him. She is preparing for divorce as soon as the kids are out of the house.

I know another woman whose husband is always off traveling to their cabin or fishing or hunting. She is upset that she is left with all the childcare and housework. She asked me about what my husband does to help, and I told her. My husband told me that, at a soccer game once, she was asking him about what he does. He came home and told me he felt very uncomfortable because she probably thinks he's just the greatest husband ever! Oh no...far from it. He neglected me until his extracurricular activities involved another woman and I hit the roof. We weren't ever going back to that sort of marriage again!

From my perspective, what causes this falling out of love is a cultural belief which is very well expressed by "Don't go changing to try to please me... I love you just the way you are."
To me, the key to being in love is both of you being willing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. You show care by giving up what works for one to find what works for both.

If you are so out of love that you have been leading virtually separate lives, how do you do this? Well, to be honest, we haven't done much since three years ago when I told my husband to move out when he decided to see for individual counseling a therapist who had told us in marriage counseling that "The POJA is la la land."

Now we are starting to find what works for both. Today, we took our kids to the zoo.

For years, my husband's idea of downtime was golfing with the guys, playing volleyball with the guys, watching football on TV, ... everything away from his family. He's with his family now and I hope he is learning to enjoy his time with us.

If I were to advice your friend, I would say to set aside the feelings of love for the moment and concentrate on what it means to care in marriage. Have him give up outside recreational activities that don't involve his wife, have him stop any activity that his wife has complained about, and have him listen to her complaints -- not about how she isn't in love with him but rather about specific behavior of his that he can change.

I think there is something to the idea that the man needs to pursue the woman. If she has withdrawn from him, given up to the point of separation, maybe he can tell her that he has dug himself a big hole and wants to get out of it, that he'd like to take it slow and work on things that would improve her life today.

Love comes from consistent care. I may be biased here, but I think a lot of marriages end because the man wants to pursue his own interests and ends up neglecting his wife until she gets to the point that she just wants to get away from him.

If the wife has three beautiful children by him, then she needs some sign of a willingness to change on his part so that she has hope that the slow death of neglect will die. The Marriage Builders Weekend would be a great way for her to gain some hope. He could propose it and then say he's willing to separate but would like to see if she's willing to try attending this weekend because he wants her to be in love with him.

"I care about you.
I want you to be happy.
I want you to be in love with you.
This is an approach that would take one weekend to learn about.
Would you be willing to try it?"

That would be a message that a woman starved for care and at the point of separation would be very skeptical about hearing. If the oldest of her three children is a pre-teen, I think she'd be receptive unless she has indeed falling in love with someone else. It seems to me that women tend to hang on until the kids are late high school or in college before separating if the problem is neglect and not infidelity.

Cherished

Totally agree. And both benefit. Women are like flowers, if they aren't watered at the right interval, they wilt and die. And I don't mean just SF, there is conversation, admiration, er, here we go with Harley's list

Foxworthy says it best: "If she ain't happy, you ain't happy, and if she isn't happy long enough, you won't be happy with half your stuff."

Larry

I agree with Mel! The first possible weekend they can schedule for a MB weekend AND spending the time with each other - putting out that same old dating stuff they did years ago is the best possible start for them.

They gotta be able to keep up that time for each other that they put into the relationship years ago! Now is definetely no time to be lazy or say - the other one has to do it first! -

I'd bet if he asked her out on a date, telling her he'd like to take her out like they used to it would at least help. And the weekend getaway with the MB theme as their focus, it'll just add icing to the cake. That cake might actually start tasting good again!!

Good Luck!
RMW

lemonman

My first response was to have him call the Harley's. Then I read melody's posts. So them to. Where does she buy/get her ideas.

Lemonman, my instincts say that there's more going on here than you've been let in on.

People do drift apart, and it's much harder to keep love going than to lose it. But if two people are aware of their disconnect - to the extent of going to MC - and are still making no progress, then there's resistance in the system, it seems to me. There's a blocking factor, and they'd rather lose the marriage than unblock it.

Despite appearances, I wonder if there's a long-buried affair that happened early in the marriage, and has not been processed or raised in MC? Or secrets of another kind which one or both of them will not acknowledge? People who value their honour are often the most likely to be in denial about their own bad thoughts and behaviours.

There's something here that hasn't been brought to the surface, and it could be that you'll never learn what it is.

TA

Lemonman - you've already gotten a number of suggestions, primarily of the "refer them to MB" variety, so I won't regurgitate that for you.

What I'd like to do is to explore a little more the "faith" aspect of your friends.

All of the appelations you ascribed to your friend are nice, but they don't address a few "key" issues in this area.

1. Are both your friend and his wife believers in Jesus Christ?

2. How important is their faith to them?

3. How important is a "changed life" IN Christ to them?


**edit**

I also think there is more to the story.

Maybe I missed something,
Did he come to you to vent?

is he sad about it?

Since the W has asked for a seperation does he want to stick it in high gear to keep her?

Lem,

I think a couple needs to earn their way out of a marriage. Giving the marriage their best shot and making every attempt to recover their love is how to do that. Perhaps MB would offer them the best shot at recovering this marriage that has NOT been touched by adultery (I will just go with the facts as you presented them). I do know that MB offers great opportunity to recover after infidelity and suspect that it could have great utility when dealing with other types of crisis.

I am of the belief that some marriages are just not meant to be. If they give it their all and utilize every tool available to them to make it work...and it still doesn't...well, it is time to move on.

So, if it were my friend, I would give support mixed with advice as to how I would handle it. I WOULD seek out the Harley's for this situation. Unless they are set on divorce, I would advise against a separation.

This man is lucky to have such a caring friend.

MEDC

I agree with this. However, different people will have different definitions of what is required to earn their divorce while others will not agree with it being necessary to earn their divorce at all.

Find out what your friend thinks of earning a divorce and what he thinks would be required to earn one. Find out if he would be willing to do that even if his wife wasn't, or if it's a "he will if she will" sort of thing.

The MB Weekend is pretty short notice but you could suggest certain Harley books that could help him get started on saving his marriage or earning his divorce. Let him know that the same things are required for both but we cannot control the outcome because it involves another person's choices too.

What can you say...

marriages are products of loving and cherishing actions...

the feeling of love is the result of the actions of love...

it seems that when you take away the actions then it is no surprise that the feelings vanish...

the act of ceasing to live as a team is an insidious thing that creeps up...

we buy the packages...

children automatically equal decreased intimacy....

we should all just expect and accept....

careers, children stress...to hard to keep the romance going

we should all expect and accept...

over scheduling
making life harder than it is...(really don't we have it better than any generation that came before)....



it's hard to be the wife of an MD...skilled sucessful surgeons even harder....

need two people committed to making it work under more extreme conditions....

they quit the marriage....
they quit the actions.....

they quit growing together
cherishing together.....

this is a direct product of their actions...

my opinion is if they aren't willing to do the work...
they should do the fake it till the children are of age....

the children deserve not to be dragged and split....
holidays forever shared and split...

visitation..new mommy and daddy...

all because they quit

here's the thing...

in a healthy marriage....

the minute you fall out of love with your spouse...is the second you start to reflect and act lovingly to them....keeping all the reasons and acts in thought as to why you fell in love them...

that minute will pass....(OBVIOUSLY not applicable to a D-Day or WS or any of those other loser acts)

people are not victims to the state of a marriage...they are the direct products of the actions of the marriage


ARK