TJD


Intro read Survivng a Affair, and I am doing Fall in Love,Stay in Love.He started to read it but said he wasnt ready to do it.

You are right I will have a hard time with him writing it down an
d asking but I will give it a shot if he is on board.


KMs

Ok, see if you can get him to invest his time with you to read Chapter 10(Marital Recovery Guided by The Rule of Honesty) from Surviving an Affair together. If you do make sure to take time to discuss the different parts of honesty and where you and have the biggest issues. You should also consider making copies and completing the Personal History Questionnaire in the Appendix of Surviving an Affair. He should complete it and you should complete it. This will help build trust.

If he doesn't engage, it would be valuable for you to read and do. You will become a better more informed person.

KMS,

Why did you have an affair?

TJD,

SELFISHNESS.I was only thinking about me at the time, not what my actions would do.Ripe apart a marriage,kill someone inside,lose respect from family and friends,hurt both of us fiancially,kill someone elses dreams, all b/c I was SELFISH. ME ME ME thats all I thought about.I didnt care about anything.That was my mindset.I want what I want when I want it.


I could say that it was b/c my needs were not being meet blah blah blah, but it all stems back to me being a selfish bi#ch.



KMS





















,

What is different now? Has the selfishness disappeared?

How did the A end?

TJD,

The difference now is that I realized that in a marriage there is two people,both have to give and receive.I was only receiving and not giving anything in return,and when it stopped I pouted and went elsewhere.Intro had taken a different postion at his work back in Dec and was it was very stressful.He would come home,take his dinner upstairs,and watch TV for the evening.I am NOT blaming him for this at all.I could have asked him if everything was ok but instead I thought why isnt he paying attention to me?If I had simply paid more attention to him I would have realized that his days were full of stress,important decsions, and looking after a crew at work and all he wanted to do was to come home and chill.

One thing that I kick myself for everyday is that Inro HAD realized that something was up with me and tried everything from cooking me supper,flowers at work(first time in 7 years),trying to make romantic plans for us but I had my head shoved so far up my a@@ I didnt even notice.I was at the time getting the attention elsewhere.


I believe the selfishness has disappeared.Its a lot of my habits that I have been working on changing(part of me me me thinking).I have been trying really hard to work on Intros EN,focusing on him has helped me in some ways get rid of my bad habits.For example,everytime he wanted a SF I wouldnt unless I got a back rub first,now I make sure that he is the one getting a rub.I love to show him how much I care b/c it makes me feel good too.Sounds simple enough,but when you have never really done it before...

How did the A end?


Exposed.I went away with XOM to another town a couple of hours away. Intro called,and at first I lied,then after much coaxing from him I finally told him who I was with.(I took our dog too,another selfish act).I admitted to a one time PA from that weekend(another lie).This was the end of March.We decided to work on things after this.I was still talking to XOM until middle of April when I write my first NC letter and changed phone number.

Things at home were still rocky b/c I never came out and told him that it was more than once.Last week of May,Intro said that he couldnt do it anymore and asked me to leave.(this was not the first time that he did,and again I am NOT blaming him).I went to the liquor store and then went down by the river and got drunk in my truck.I called XOM.STUPID STUPID I ended up meeting up with him at his place and spent the night.There was no S, I know that sounds hard to believe (Intro still doesnt,even though he asked XOM).Three days later Intro wanted my cell phone bills and I refused (knowing that I called him a couple of days before hand)but I finally gave them to him.Thats when D-day 2 happened,I came clean about more PA(only b/c he called XOM).



That last week in May was a turning point for me.I called XOM for the last time on May 30 and have never looked back.That day I went to a concert with my two sisters and realized how much I had thrown away, how good I acually had it.For what?Some smooth talking POS?What a idiot!!!Listening to my sisters say goodbye,love you, to their husbands that night hit me right smake in the forhead.I figured that even though my marriage is over(a RO was put on me and Intro was well not being a nice guy)
I am sooo done with this loser.That night was a turning point in my life.I have never looked back.


I know there is still lots of detail missing but I am willing to share.thanks for listening

KMS

Hey KMS--

Good to hear (read??) from you!

Its good to see a little more emotion, depth, and detail in your posts too I think just in the few days you've been posting here, I've seen a difference in you. You seem more introspective and to be evaluating things more. A good change . This place is great .

Just wanted to let you know I'm still hangin' around... I'm usually not on much on the weekends.

So how did your weekend go?? Did you get to go out to the Italian place... and how was it? What else did you do this weekend? Are you looking into a weekend trip for you two at all?

How's intro doing? Has he calmed down any? He hasn't posted in quite a few days on his thread...

And, about your above post... its a b!tch when you realize how hard they tried to correct their mistakes and how hard they were trying to win you back when you had your head shoved up your butt, eh? That's what's hard for me now. My H tried so f'ing hard-- he was the model husband. But I picked him apart, tried to find reasons to be mad at him, and didn't really care about all the really sweet things he did for me during that time period. I just didn't care.

And changing old habits is hard, especially the first few times it is "tested". I am a hot-head too... I tend to speak first, think later. And I react based on emotions of the moment. I remember reacting in the past, and then a few days later thinking to myself that I couldn't figure out why I was so darned upset over whatever I was upset about. That's a sure-fire sign that I was overreacting to things and basing my actions on emotion and not logic.

Not reacting and not being defensive is HARD stuff. But I learned it because I was sort of FORCED to. If I wanted my marriage to survive, I had to learn to... there was no other way.

It DOES get easier, I promise you. A lot of the changes I had to work so hard at 6 months ago, and really had to think hard about... now come naturally. I am no longer a yeller, I now think before I say things. I'm still working on letting things go and walking away from arguments... but I've gotten better.

It gets easier KMS. But the change has got to start with you

Let me know how your weekend went!

E.

eeyoree



I didnt want to post this on your thread and sound selfish but our stries are WOW very similar!I havent really addressed this yet b/c I am not sure how to.Bs joined a on line dating service the day he put the RO on me,thats where he meet two girls that he dated one and had a PA with the other.But about two or three weeks ago (maybe longer)a "check your mail" came up on the computer.Knowing that we didnt have live chat mail I asked him about it.(we were on our way to a movie)he stated he used it for work,thought that was wierd but never questioned it.Later that night he said he had been chatting with OTHER girls aside from the two he took out.

He said that he closed the account,and didnt want to read it.Thats fine and I have never brought it up since but every time I open the computer it pops up.I guess this morning it just bothered me.boo hoo ,deal with it.


Weekend was not bad.Never made it to the restaurant on Friday,but did go Sat. night.We had a great time until the check came.I could see it hit him like a ton of bricks. you see the first "date" with XOM I took him out for lunch.Intro had forgotten his wallet so I paid and I think it made him think about that day.Stupid me I should have taken cash out or something,so instead AS soon as the cheque got there I jumped up and went to the desk to pay.


Sounds like someones up will keep in touch

KMS

Hey KMS--

Glad to hear your weekend wasn't bad. Did you do anything else fun at all? Has intro calmed down at all?

I know our stories are very similar... that's part of why I jumped on intro's thread in the first place... similar stories, and intro is a lot like my H (for the 90 billionth time... haha).

There's other similarities too in our own (mine and yours) personal histories...

Anyways, its good to have someone from a similar situation that BTDT! We are just a little "ahead" of you guys... that's all.

The dating stuff and the dating websites was hard to swallow... I still sometimes suspect him of hunting for women online... I dunno. I personally think that my H (and intro) are responsible for their own actions and that the "I wouldn't have if you didn't..." line of reasoning is crap... (heck we can ALL come up with an argument like that, if we wanted to-- it doesn't make what we did OK!). H refused to take responsibility for those things at first, and used the "I wouldn't have if you didn't..." argument... and I realized I couldn't MAKE him... so I decided to table those issues for awhile until our M was on steadier ground. Plus, the argument does have validity... but it still doesn't make it RIGHT or get him "off the hook". In the end, I think we all have to take responsibility for what we've done though in order for true recovery to happen.

I guess my point is, I understand that the RA and the dating and stuff is really hard to deal with and swallow, and honestly at times, I would get really resentful because I was trying my butt off, yet somehow I felt that he was "off the hook" for everything he had done and I had to pay over and over and over again. But, truthfully, we DID set up the situation which allowed intro and my H's RA's to happen... and if we want to save the M, we've got to be able to swallow our pride for now and work through their issues first.

E.

Why didn't you have S?

When you felt bad before you would call OM. What do you do now? How do you handle these situations now?

What were the reasons you decided to stay in your current job for 3 weeks once you gave your notice?

How can selfishness disappear? Are you now sacrificing?

TJD

Why didnt you have sex?

I didnt want to at the time I wanted someone to talk to b/c my BS said it was over and I was upset.Now I look back and he is the LAST person I should have called.

When you felt bad before you would call OM. What do you do now?How do you handle these situations now?

I write.I have journal that I write in,been reading,if I feel like its falling apart,I take the dog for a walk to calm down and get my bearings.We also just moved and I have put everything away myself (that I can lift)to keep me busy whenever I fell LB ed.


Maybe you misunderstood.I gave my job app 3 weeks notice.I didnt decide to stay any longer.

How can selfishness disappear?

I guess that not so much disappeared(wrong way of saying it)but the energy that I was channeling to me I am now redirecting into my plan of meeting ENs.Jennifer helped me out during our last meeting about dealing with this.B/c I am the only one on board right now and not having my ENs meet it will make it much harder for me.She talked about my taker and not to let him rear his ugly head by sticking with my plan and instead of writing all negative thoughts(which I was doing)but writing down what I did each day to meet his ENs.


I sacrificed my marriage with the A.


Can someone tell me how to copy a post?

KMS

KMS,

My question is related to the reasons you chose to give a 3 week notice. Why? Why not 2 weeks, why not 1 week, why not immediately?

I mean, what is the reason you are quitting? How is the notice you gave supporting that reason?


You can use the Quote link to copy from a previous thread.

Simply highlight it by dragging your cursor over what you want copied while holding the left mouse button and then right click, click copy, and then with your cursor where you want it to go, right click and click paste.

If you want what you are quoting to be in the fancy quote box, just put [ the word quote and ] in front and [ / quote and ] at the end. (use no spaces - can't just type it out here since it would put what I type into a box...)

Or from the menu at the top of a reply box, click the quotation marks and copy and paste between the first ] and the second [ what you want to quote.

If you open a reply box and click on the quotation marks in the menu, you will see the format for making the box around the quotation. [ and ] indicate a command instead of text. the / is a switch that says that the command is now off. Same format for italics (i) and bold (b) and underline (u) though those are single character codes.

Yeah, I'm one of those...

Mark

Thanks I am a computer idiot!!



Maybe someone can help to address this.I mentioned it a couple of days ago about BS was talking to girls on line and the:check you mail" for live chat has been flashing at me everytime I turn the computer on.Not a big deal but I noticed that this morning its gone and I heard him typing this morning.I know its one of these on line girls b/c he told me that was the only thing he used it for.

Maybe I am making a mountain oout of a mole hill who knows but I am scared to say anything.Any suggestions or leave it be?
I know its not good to leave it be,but there are more important things to worry about.


KMS

I'd let it be for now, but keep your antenna up. I have a feeling if you say anything about it, Intro is going to explode-- and probably deny/justify even if something WAS going on. Right now, he's not invested, so YOU have to be to keep the M together. Unless you have concrete proof he's up to something, just stay mum.

Maybe he removed that "check your mail" message because he KNEW it bothered you and he was being considerate of your feelings?

For now, you are going to have to put your own concerns about his RA aside in order to save the M-- kinda like a plan A. He's not off the hook forever, but this is your "proving grounds".

How much do you think about his RA/how much does it bother you?

E.

ETA: it concerns me that you are "scared" to talk to him about things, KMS. Sheesh, you sound like me 8 months ago-- terrified of my H's AO's, and terrified that anytime I said anything about not being happy or something that upset me (sometimes very rightfully so! He did some pretty mean things after D-day!)-- he'd have an AO, throw the A in my face (the eternal justification for everything) and then run out the door. I hated it. So, to stop the cycle, I just stopped telling him when things bothered me. He was happy because he got to do whatever he wanted (even if it hurt me or affected me somehow) without me saying anything, and I was miserable and dying inside.

Don't fall into that trap.

That doesn't mean that every little thing that crosses your mind needs to be hashed out (like the above... it is just as plausible he was on the computer doing other things, and that he took the message off for your benefit...)-- but you shouldn't feel that you are walking on eggshells CONSTANTLY.

I fell into that trap for a LONG time. I let my guilt run my life, and I let my H control me with my guilt.

Not good for recovery-- it doesn't work.

I'm not seeing why she must put her worries about his RA aside.

They have both committed adultery. She has reason to think he might be looking to do it again, if I am understanding correctly. No it is not all up to her. They have both failed and both have repair work to do.
Yes, she should give 100%. Intro should also give 100%.

I 100% agree that at some point Intro will HAVE to take 100% responsibility for his RA and for the consequences.

Right now, he's not committed to the M-- nor is he taking responsibility for his RA-- he's hiding behind the "R" part in order to avoid the consequences associated with his A.

I guess I think that at SOME POINT Intro will have to take responsibility if recovery is going to truly occur, but if KMS wants to save the M, she's gonna have to table that for now and do a plan A. But not permanently. They won't be in recovery until the BOTH deal with BOTH of their infidelities...

I think if KMS tried to push the issue of intro dealing with HIS OWN demons and the RA-- I think it might push him over the edge right now, and push him away.

He's pretty uncommitted to this right now (his thread is in "in recovery"), so I guess I think a plan A (with inherent no expectations associated) is probably best for KMS right now, just to give him a REASON to want to work things out.

I don't think that he can stay that way forever, and I think that right now he's play score keeper-- he thinks what KMS did is "worse" than what he did... therefore that "cancels" any debt he has to pay. (my H's line of logic about his RA was very similar after D-day). In reality, KMS has to make up for her mistakes, and they aren't Intro's fault, and Intro has to make up for his-- and his RA certainly isn't KMS's fault.

But right now I think Intro's letting his emotions run things-- and since KMS is "new" to really giving it her all-- tabling this issue, FOR NOW, is probably in the best benefit of the M, overall. Especially since there's no direct evidence he's up to anything shady-- just suspicions. If she found direct evidence, then my response would be 100% different.

KMS, does he know you worry about these things? Have you ever tried to respectfully tell him that you have concerns too? Or is he clueless?

Just my 2 cents.

E.

I 100% agree that at some point Intro will HAVE to take 100% responsibility for his RA and for the consequences.

Right now, he's not committed to the M-- nor is he taking responsibility for his RA-- he's hiding behind the "R" part in order to avoid the consequences associated with his A.

I guess I think that at SOME POINT Intro will have to take responsibility if recovery is going to truly occur, but if KMS wants to save the M, she's gonna have to table that for now and do a plan A. But not permanently. They won't be in recovery until the BOTH deal with BOTH of their infidelities...

I think if KMS tried to push the issue of intro dealing with HIS OWN demons and the RA-- I think it might push him over the edge right now, and push him away.

He's pretty uncommitted to this right now (his thread is in "in recovery"), so I guess I think a plan A (with inherent no expectations associated) is probably best for KMS right now, just to give him a REASON to want to work things out.

I don't think that he can stay that way forever, and I think that right now he's play score keeper-- he thinks what KMS did is "worse" than what he did... therefore that "cancels" any debt he has to pay. (my H's line of logic about his RA was very similar after D-day). In reality, KMS has to make up for her mistakes, and they aren't Intro's fault, and Intro has to make up for his-- and his RA certainly isn't KMS's fault.

But right now I think Intro's letting his emotions run things-- and since KMS is "new" to really giving it her all-- tabling this issue, FOR NOW, is probably in the best benefit of the M, overall. Especially since there's no direct evidence he's up to anything shady-- just suspicions. If she found direct evidence, then my response would be 100% different.

KMS, does he know you worry about these things? Have you ever tried to respectfully tell him that you have concerns too? Or is he clueless?

Just my 2 cents.

E.


You know I probably shouldnt have even brought it up.He read this thread this morning before I had a chance to mention it to him.It is not a big deal and I am quite sure that he would tell me if he was talking to any other woman.He did say that when he sent me a text in regards to my post this morning.I just wasnt sure if I should bring it up now or leave it for the time being.Looks like I should have left it alone.


Sorry dont have much time today to chat.
KMS

Hey KMS.

I think that your concerns need to be brought up, and its good that Intro knows of them-- you shouldn't have to hold them all in. That being said, I would "choose your battles" at this point. That's why I said to let this one go-- I didn't think it was worth bringing up without more solid proof, and quite frankly, it was possible that Intro removed the message in consideration of you, and your asking him why it was gone would be a LB in response to his being considerate of you.

Yes, your feelings are important, but I guess for now, I'd save bashing him with your feelings for the things that are really important to you. Right now, it kinda is all about intro, and you are going to have to put a lot aside to fight for the M. So, choose your battles. My opinion was this one wasn't it-- especially since it could have been that he just removed it to be nice.

OK-- I thought of something this evening that I thought might help you out. I often have to give talks in front of my whole department. I tend to talk really fast when I get going. So, in my head, I talk extra slow. And if I feel like I'm talking WAAAYYY too slow, I slow down just a bit more, and I figure that I'm talking just slow enough to the outsider listening. What's the point of this and what does it have to do with you? Well, that's kinda what you have to do now. You have to put in an OVER THE TOP amount of effort. If it feels like you are putting in too much-- put in a little bit more-- and then be satisified. You really have to go above and beyond even what you think is necessary.

I guess I sometimes am missing that "over the top"-ness from you. And I think Intro really needs you to go WAY WAY WAY above and beyond. And again, I'm not sure if the reason you hold back here is because you know Intro's around too, and that makes it hard to plan things (kinda hard to surprise him if he reads it here...) or to really open up.

I would be willing to give you my personal email to communicate, if you think that would help, but check with Intro to see how he feels about that first. He may not want two FWWs communicating off the boards, and that would be understandable. Plus, if he wants to read all of the emails between us (also understandable) that also sort of defeats the purpose and we might as well just stay here-- and you can get other's opinions too. Mine certainly isn't the only one. So maybe we are better off just staying here... I dunno. Just a thought. I guess I feel like you are holding back quite a bit anymore... is that true? Or sometimes you say what you feel you should say, not what you actually are feeling? Sometimes your posts just feel "shallow". Not that YOU are shallow-- they just seem to lack the emotional depth that typically goes with a situation like this-- and I'm honestly struggling to figure out if that's because Intro might read it, and you just want to say "what's right" to say, or if its really that you are lacking in that emotional depth. Honestly, after your little meltdown the day that Intro was really freaking out last week and I told you to go home-- I think it is just that you are holding back. You seemed to open up there for a day or so-- but have shut down again here. But-- that's my opinion. What do you think?

OK-- a few questions for you:

1. What is a typical evening like at your house? Pre-A? Now? How are you doing on that 15 hours? I think that is one of the advantages to no kids and doing this-- the 15 hours should be cake for you two (well, at least FINDING the 15 hours...).

2. How much time do you have left at that JOB? Is there anyway you can finish up earlier? Maybe tell your boss that you know you told him 3 weeks, but you'd like to wrap up as much as possible PRIOR to that and sit down with him to see what he expects to be done before you leave-- and if you get it done early, if he'll let you off the hook early? Tell him you've had important family emergencies come up and the extra time off would be great- as well as time to unpack (and none of that is a lie). I really think making a genuine effort to be done faster would be a giant plus in Intro's book. Plus, I'm still a little perplexed as to why you did 3 weeks instead of the standard 2.

3. When is your next appointment with Jennifer? Is Intro joining you on this one, or just you again-- or hasn't he decided yet?

4. Have you given any more thought to planning a weekend away for you two?

5. What are your plans for the weekend-- let me re-phrase-- what plans ARE YOU making for the TWO OF YOU this weekend? Don't wait for him. You make plans.

OK, I'll leave it there for now. Hope you are having a good night!

E.

Morning E


Last night we had a great conversation about my concern over it and we cleared the air about it.Like I had said before it wasnt a big deal but it turned into one b/c he read it on here first.With that being said you are right I can not hide any of my concerns or questions from him.For the record it was a simple mistake the account has been closed and ge has not been contacting anyone.


Funny you say to hold my feelings in but last night I was rubbing his arm and looking at his face (there was no expression)and it triggered me.I realized how sad he looked and it was ALL b/c of me.I felt like a piece of sH#$,hated myself for doing all of this to him.I broke down crying.Later on we talked about it and he thanked me for it.I havent been showing him enough remorse,I feel it everyday,seems like every waking moment but I have been keeping it to myself.Not good.


You say to go over the top...do you have any suggestions?I sure could use them.Jennifer has giving me some ideas but I can ALWAYS use some help and coaching.

I will admit that I am uncomfortable writng everything I am feeling down on here but I am hoping with time it will get easier.Sometimes yes it is b/c Intro is on here and also I am not much of a computer person.I also have a hard time writing at work b/c my computer is in public view so yes if I seem short thats also part of the reason.However not for much longer!!!Hopefully new job has a bit more privacy.


If I wanted to say the right thing I wouldnt be here looking for help.Just my thought.Besides what is the right thing?I am in no means perfect but do have a hard time in expressing my thoughts on to paper,I hope that this will help me in a bit.That is part of my problem I bottle things up then let them build help me to stop!



QUESTION TIME
1.Typical evening..pre-A...turn on TV make dinner.Intro would go upstairs and eat and watch TV,I would usally hang out downstairs and do the same thing.Now dont get me wrong this wasnt everyday but we never sat at the table together.We bought a new set and I think we only used for Christmas dinner!!After supper he would usually watch sports and I would mess around the house or go to bed.sometimes we would get out and go fishing for a hour or take the dog swimming.
Post -A....still do the supper thing BUT we both help and either sit at the table(made a point of not having a TV on main floor)or yes go upstairs and sit together on couch.Latey b/c we just moved we have little projects that we do or if its been a rough day lie on the couch and chill out together.We talk about our day and answer any questions that may come up.oh and SF in there too.HEHE.

As far as the 15 hours a week,we have been doing lots together around the house but we both take pride in our home and enjoy doing things to improve it and adding our personal touches .May not be everyones dream 15 hours but I believe that we both enjoy it together.

2.I have 6.5 days left.The reason I gave them the courtesy of 3 weeks is b/c they have been like family to me through out all of this.If I was having a moment my boss just said to say that "I am going to get my nails done" and simply leave.No questions asked.I guess I was thankful for the support they gave me and wanted to return it in some way.I shouldnt have b/c it is making Intro upset but when I asked him he said that he didnt care.I think it was a test and I failed that one.As far as leaving early I will ask,besides what are they gonna do..fire me????

3.Have not made another appointment with Jennifer b/c she is gone next week and I wanted to discuss with Intro to see if he would like to join me again.



4.I was planning a camping weekend.Having the truck all packed and ready to go and when I got home from work,simply hop in and take off.We love to fish(ok he does I play with the dog)and we havent been out hardly at all this year.


i want to thank you for hearing me out and please help m\out I DO NEED IT!!!!
KMS