WMF,

Sounds like you and I are pretty much on the same timeline. I can tell you from my experience that as time goes by, it does seem to fade. I view our relationship as brand new. The old one really doesn’t exist anymore because we have both been changed forever. Recently, we even laugh about some of the details of her affair.(OM had ED) I had a RA about a month ago and it answered a lot of the questions I had about my WW’s A. Sadly, they really don’t mean that much to the cheater. I also thought she might think of OP while we’re together intimately. The answer is NO. I never think of my OW while my wife and I are together. Nor do I think of my ex-wife, or all the girlfriends I had before then. There is an emotional attachment but it fades fast as its nothing compared to a spouse of 13 years whom you’ve had kids with, bought houses, etc. Other than the small jokes here and there, we’ve already locked down not discussing either A any longer. I would definitely stay out of marathon conversations, especially if you know everything already. Its hard for a BS to understand due to the destruction caused(TRUST ME!), but the A generally doesn’t mean anything long term to the WS.(greater than 3 mo.) I know, since I moved to the other side. My WW now fears I might do it again, but I won’t. Its really a lot of work, and in the end, doesn’t mean much. That’s what makes the WS feel so bad, it was all for nothing. Move forward! Don’t look back! As far as you are concerned, you all have a brand new relationship. The sex/intimacy can be fresher, the hugging, the kissing, can be hotter than ever before. Some marriages need a jolt. You are probably happier if you think about it than a lot of marriages where A have never taken place. They are still going through the motions, taking each other for granted. You and your spouse are not.


- Just my thoughts!

FYI - I'm normally checking in. Others post have said what I would be saying. From your posts it didn't sound like you needed it to be beat into your head.

Sometimes we need, sometimes we don't.


When you are talking, no matter what it is, there should not be interuptions. Sounds a little like a LB. What my H and I would do, when we were talking about our M, is one of us would talk for 10 minutes. No interuptions. Then the other for 10 minutes. No interuptions. And then 10 minutes back and forth.

We got to a place where we can now talk without interuptions...well at least when I'm right.

No, seriously, we now listen to other person better. We are not just reacting to what just came out of the other persons mouth.

This something to learn for all marriages.

But I do like the visual you created.


How is this going?

Well today is day one of me trying to do that and so far so good
Can I get a treat now .
Sorry I am just in a goofy mood today, but seriously I recoganize that I need to focus on other things besides A talk and I am going to keep constantly reminding myself of that when the urge to "relive" and "rehash" come up.

So I am going to find ways to email H at work and "talk" and plan and discuss current and future activities and events and thoughts in my head other than A.

Day 1 - I like it. And goofy moods are good for us. Brings out our playful, silly side. Then you just never know might what happen.


Think of some your similiar interest or things you would like to learn/do together. These can be good starting grounds.

I know you mentioned your DH likes racing. Is there anything here that could engage you? I must admit I would struggle with this one, finding something that I would really enjoy.

Enjoy this fun day and make it a FUN weekend.

Need to just ramble today.....It's still hard to "find things to talk about" (with H) instead of the A because OW seems to always come up - she's somehow "tied to" pretty much EVERYTHING in our lives. It's like how much can I bite my tongue in order not to make H feel bad.

I read in the book "Surviving Infidelity" that you are a survivor when you can "WITHSTAND UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING." Well I'm praying I will be there one day and I really think I will.

Sometimes I pull myself out of this "downward spiral" by thinking about all these OW who actually BELIEVE that the man they LOVE SO MUCH will actually leave their wives - when all is said and done (exposure). I have never been unfaithful but If I an was OW I would feel so stupid and USED. I do know someone people actually DO leave the W or H but that's not my case. Their "get what they want or need, no matter who it hurts" life philosophy should be discouraging.

One would almost feel sorry for them, but of course I don't, not today and not anytime soon, if ever.

I am looking forward to the day - JUST ONE DAY - when I don't think about the A. I'll get there.

And that day will come... it will catch you by surprise... cause you'll be thinking about what you did yesterday and realize that the WHOLE day went by without a thought of the A.

It takes a while to get there. And it doesn't mean every day that follows will be the same. But it will dim a little more and there will be more days where you DON'T think about it than when you do.

Just hang in there.

(((Luv)))

Today is a tough day. I cant seem to function. Its been a good ride so far intrems of making some progess feeling like we are moving forward. But the nagging feeling that "US" can never been good again is taking over me today. The reason for why US cant be good again changes from time to time, initally it was beacuse I did not think I would be able to get over the pain of the betrayal, the it was that I would not be able to "make my H forget about OW" and that I would never measure up in his eyes and he woudl forever be "in love with her".

Nowadays my mind seems to wander more towards WH seems so happy and yet I am so unhappy. He had an oppurtunity to experience a love bubble (his A) that helped him feel warm and soothe when he was feeling low and unloved. Now that that sourcse of warth has been taken away from him he has me to be his sunlight and keep showering him with love when he is low. Patience to accept his flaws and hugs to fill him when he needs one.

I on the other hand do not feel like I have any such umbrella covering me. No "fantasy period" of pure love and happinesss,( NO I am not considering having an RA), no unconditional "I hug you beacuse you are in pain" without the hug reminding me that I am the ultimate cause of my own pain (becuase WH had affair casue I did not show him love and care enough).
All I have is the hard work and attention and patience that I putting into loving my H and caring for him. In return he seems happier and more content and as a result sometimes does things that make me feel loved. He has bought me flowers, came home early to surprise me etc.

I feel un-grateful and selfish when feel this way but I feel like in the big picture he is not showing me enough that I matter. We have been counselling with Jennifer and I find that his version or our progress is very different from mine. He seems to think that things are far better than they are (and may be for him they are). He does the assigments required for the next call at the 11 hr hour in a rushed manner (combination of procrastination and or lack or importance). I dont want to be his gatekeeper and say oh no I did not see him read for the 30 minutes that he should have, or he did not actually do what he is saying he did.
One of the issues he has with me is that I was the task master so I am purposufully staying out of "managing" how he participates in this recovery. The pain of his "LOW LEVEL" particpation, enough to keep me hanging around but not enough to give me grounds to say that its not working is killing me.

I am just sad, I want to feel loved and I want my H to be in love with me, the way I am with him and show him.

I would think given that his main reason for the A was that I did not show him enough love is ironic given what I feel now with him. He says he loves me and I belive him I just dont feel it. And when I tell him that his feelings are hurt and he points out all the things he has done and when I point out the important things that reamin undone he has his "stressfull and time consuming job" as the response. If he starts to feel like he is loosing this argument he tends to take out his trump card which is "you are not the only one with pain" I suffered pain and neglect from you for 15 years ( yes thats how he sees our maritial history) so what about my pain. So that silences me cause how I can I compensate for what he felt was lack of show of love in the past.

What can I do to not feel this way and communicate to him how sad I feel ?

WMF,

Our stories are so similar, I can say "I know how you feel" with some of these same issues. I still have not figured out how to use a quote in the box like so many people do but I wanted to respond to several things you said in your post.

Now I am only a few weeks ahead of you after our D-Days and am NO EXPERT but I will tell you how I handled some of this and what my individual counselor said to say next time he says some crap like this.


She said "It makes HIM feel better if he can place blame on me - that's called DENIAL. He has unresolved issues if he cannot MAN Up and face the fact that the the affair was HIS CHOICE. Yes, we should claim 50% of the maritial problems before the affair BUT the affair is an entirely different issue. That was a Secret Relationship kept secret and seperate from you - YOU had no part of it."

And the 15 years of pain part - yes, I heard that one too. My counselor said if he was UNHAPPY that long and never spoke up or never filed for divorce, well thats his problem that obviously he was NEVER TAUGHT how to be A MAN and speak up for himself. So, he does it the only way he knew how - which was the COWARDLY way - which was to have an affair.

I went through the self blame, then his blame on me and listening to his excuses of his needs not being met. It's routine they all do it. And I cried about it for several months straight, and then there comes a point where you get mad as H*** and say I need a man of integrity, who accepts responsibility for his mistakes, not a man with no backbone who blames the mother of his children for HIS unhappiness and self-esteem issues in life.

Now, WMF you go get a pedicure today, make a hair appointment, buy a new outfit and show him what he's going to be missing if he keeps being stupid.

Right there with ya, chicka. It's a lonely road, isn't it? And it seems like it shouldn't be because our H is right there with us...but he's not really.

It's like we're both walking to the same destination, but are separated on the road. Sometimes one of us falls behind...sometimes one of us needs help walking. It's a rough road. And SO LONG.

But you know what, you've got us. We aren't much to look at, but we're here along the side of the road, cheering you on, handing you gatorade, making sure you keep going.

I'm here. We can make it. We're tough.

MogiSola

Thanks Luv thats what I know I should do, keep myself distacted from thinking about this ALL day long. Except I have been getting pedicures and Plan A'ing him until it hurts and I cant seem to get him to stop bring Stup*d and start noticing it. Or worse he is noticing it and realizing it just not communicating it to me.

I thought that it was a very sweet and supportive statememnt and nice to hear, certainly helped my mood.
And now that I know its from you its even sweeter .

Thanks.

I'm so nervous that I won't have any friends checking in with me now that I have had an identity crisis.

I don't do secrecy very well.

MogiSola

And....in addition to my last post. Sometimes I just have bad days, when even a pedicure won't help.

I'm sure he has noticed you...Men just don't THINK a lot of the time. As for my H, he says as little as he possibly can get away with these days. I've blown up so many times either with tears or anger which is understandable, I'm still working on it. He too reads and does little towards recovery. I initiate everything, the emotional needs list for MB, books, talking about it. He would DIE before he ever brought it up. So, I know how you feel. The WS should WANT to do what's right, and try to fix what he has broken.

From the posts I read, he and I are on different timelines and men generally don't like to TALK...about anything...much less about the mess he's made.

I'm not giving up yet. I think we need more time. We can't recover and rebuild in 4 months too much damage has been done.

WMF, I hope you have a better day tomorrow.

I dont want to give up but the sadness on this issue surfaces so many times for me that its getting hard to sweep under.

I wanna hang in there and wait for him to wake up and realize that I dont have the strength to keep on tugging for long. I am starting to belive that there is no way for him to wake up until I am in plan B . May be I am giving my self too much credit. May be me leaving is not going to make a dent in his life one bit.

He will probablay look at this as another tragedy in his life that he tried to make it work with me and that I just wanted too much and could not be made happy. He will write some wonderful poetry (which is really writes beautifully) about the sadness I brought to his life, spend some time letting the pain of the end of our relationship engulf him and then some wonderful soul will enter his life and wipe his tears away. The cycle goes on.

I want there to be a different ending to this story, I want there to be a "Recovered and happy" in my signature line. I want my DH to see how much I love him and how much I need him to love me.

I am looking forward to a better day tomororow as well, today as been positively depressing .

WMF,

My H also said that too - about his "unhappiness" and HIS HAPPINESS is not ALL MY RESPONSIBILITY. A person chooses to be happy. One person cannot MAKE another person feel unhappy. He has to claim that. I cannot depend on anyone else in life to make me happy but ME. If he's unhappy then he needs find out why.

For my H it was a self-esteem issue. He was looking for something to make himself FEEL better. He and the OW even tried drugs together. Now, we are church going people which tells me he was really desperate to "feel good"

But your comment about later someone "wonderful will come into your H's life." Well, JUST THE SAME can happen for YOU. Someone wonderful can come into your life too. As for me, I would never date a man whose divorce was do to him cheating on his wife and children. So, let's face how wonderful could she be?

My hope is that he wakes up soon. People do not know what they have until they loose it and then it's too late.

{{{WMF}}}

I'm sorry yesterday was a bad day. I hope that today you are feeling more positive.


Get this thought OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

YOUR H had the A.

That was HIS choice.

YOU DID NOT CAUSE THE AFFAIR.

The A was NOT your choice.

The problems that were in your M before the A did not make your H choose to seek out OW. You did not cause this.

Stand tall. Stand up for yourself. Do not take or place any blame of the A. That is his alone to bear. Get that our of your mindset right now.

And keep it out.

(Sorry, could resist trying one of the new faces. It was just too much temptation.)


So it sounds like he is sometimes 'getting it.'

Was he like this before the A? Years ago?

Are you expecting those changes over night again? Overnight changes will not last.


You have the right to feel anyway you feel.

But you also owe it to yourself and your H to let him know that you see what he has been doing. You appreciate the changes so far. You are feeling slighted and need him to pick up the load for a while and carry it for both of you.

AND you need to keep this discussion to 30 minutes.


This, cleaned up a bit, sounds like something to SHARE with your H.

Here's a question. Are you being O&H with your H (does he know, without being a mind reader, how you are feeling)?


Fog babble. That carp (yes, mispelled on purpose) is fog babble. That is him not wanting to take responsibility for HIS choice.

Fog babble right back at him babe. Bring this comment up with Jennifer and let her show him that babble isn't going to fly.

WS, even when committed to recovery, can backslide into that stupid thinking. Not being mature enough at these moments to take responsibility for their actions.

It was his action. It was his choice. This is not yours to take on.

Here's a quick story:

After my H and I were ready to committ to recovery our relationship there were times where I didn't want to be the only one to blame. On a day that was particulary bad for my DH and I thought I was getting too much carp from H, I fired right.

I reminded my H that HE left me. That HE chose to work in another state, AWAY from ME, for over 10 months. That I begged, I cried, I spoke rationally, I ordered, I tried all kinds of tactics to tell him to come home. That I needed him here with ME. That the extra money was not worth it. That we made enough to more than support ourselves while we lived in the same house together. That he was greedy and selfish for wanting to work over 3,000 miles away and would only come home every 8 to 10 weeks for a few days that were jammed backed with seeing friends and family. That I told him he needed to come home because I was really scared that I was going to cheat on him because of how lonely I was. (See the load of carp I was trying to pile on him?)

My H looked right back at me and said, yes, you did all those things. I didn't listen. And then YOU were also the one who f*d another guy. You were the one that decided I was no longer worth being faithful to and you were the one that may have ended our marriage. All those other things are easily fixed. This is not an easy fix and sometime I don't know if we can be happy again. But there is no way I'm going to stay here and let you blame me for you f*ing someone else.

Hard to hear? You bet. Did I deserve? YOU BET!

Yes, I was unhappy before the my A. That unhappiness pales in comparison (its not even comparable ) to the unhappiness I CAUSED my H.

Do you get why I told you this quick (ok, long) story?


Being O&H together and time will get your H and you further down the road to recovery.

Sorry this was so long winded.

Your ending will be what you and your H decide its going to be. Your DH will get there.

My bet is the weekend was that great together. Am I correct?

Have you considered an IC to help with your feelings?

Hang in their girl. Good days will come.

Mini T/J (sorry WMF),

jlr, I didn't realize you were in the same situation I was with a H who lived/worked in another state for an extended period of time. Just connecting...

Would you stop by my new thread? I'm starting fresh...same person, new name...incognito...but the story still continues.

Thanks
MogiSola

Ok, New day, less BS fog for me today

I can even crack a smile now isnt that nice after the disaster of yesterday,

Yes JLR you are right weekend with DH was really really nice , and a great oppurtunity for us both to just be human and away from the stress of day to day life.
It is a nice bonding experience and hopefully there will be many more to follow.

Meanwhile I am glad that yessready is behind me and I can continue onward and forward on this rough road.

I guess break down is that even though my Dh is trying to so what he thnks are the "right" things to make me happy, its not working as well as it should. I am so heart broken and I feel like I am in a million pieces. I spent the part of the day at Borders looking for some information in books on how to mend your broken heart. A lot of the books out there that deal with how to do that involve "falling out of love" at the end of a relationship so as to ease the pain of its end. In my case (and most BS's here who want tod ay in the M) its about mending the heart without falling out of love with my H. So the search for how to heal continues but I feel stronger today that I can move one and no need to curl up and roll into a ball.
I will think some more about the IC but between the MC and the dating and the vacations I dont want to go bankrupt either Lol.

I hope slowly but surely Dh will begin to assume more of his share of the work needed in the recovery and that will help more with keeping the pain of feeling un-valued under wraps.

Thanks y'all for helping me hang in there.

wmf,

Somewhere in there I warned you about the timeline, and about getting to the anger phase, and that you would get to the point where you would feel like you were doing the lifting and the WS wasn't.

And you NEED HIM TO LIFT.

You're there.


The problem becomes, how do you communicate this to him?

Hint: It doesn't take threats of divorce to let him know.


Use the rules.
Use the MB concepts - O&H especially.
Come from a position of love - he is NOT the enemy.

My H and I went through this, too. My handling of the situation was TERRIBLE. I could have done it so much better, but I allowed the problem to fester. I followed what my H wanted to do, which was to take a "vacation" from talking about the A. Big mistake, because that made it impossible for me to proceed through some of the phases that I was going through. I needed to talk about some feelings I had, some triggers, etc. All the while, HE MOVED ON IN HIS LA-LA-LA HAPPINESS. And my anger built.

A perfect set-up for Plan FU. Which is what happened.

After that, we talked about what needed to have happened all along, and that put us back onto track because he finally understood things from my point of view.

I asked him if divorce is what he wanted, because I felt like that was where I was going - out the door. I couldn't do this recovery gig on my own, and although he "thought" he was helping, his help was in a direction that was not helpful to me.

I explained that the recovery help was a lot like the languages of love. That helping me had to come in the language that I needed, or it didn't feel like help to me.

So in turn, he asked what it was he wasn't doing that I needed - and let me tell you, this was hard. But I really KNEW WHAT IT WAS.

I needed him to stop looking down when I looked at him. I needed him to stop showing me his shame, and to stop trying to make up for things ALL THE TIME. It didn't feel natural for him to always be trying so hard, walking on eggshells. I wanted him to love me "easy", and his trying to do everything for me, waiting on me like a queen was just not like him - I was overwhelmed.

I needed him to recognize when I was having a bad day. He said he DID recognize it! I asked him why he didn't do anything about it, and he said that he didn't want to make it worse - and I said that I wanted him to acknowlege the pain he saw, and just walk up and hug me. Words weren't needed, his shame wasn't needed, just prop me up. A hug, reassure me he loved me, maybe pick a wildflower and give it to me - something to express love. He said he could do that, and he did from that point on.

I needed him to talk about the affair, for HIM to initiate it so that I knew that he actually thought about things. I told him I often wondered if the event and the fallout even crossed his mind. He was shocked at this, and even hurt by it. He said he thought about it all the time, but didn't bring it up because it was his way of trying to move on and put it out of his mind - to get past his own guilt and shame, and also to try not to add to my pain. I told him I needed him to bring it up, talk to me about his feelings and thoughts without me having to be the "bad guy" and be the one bringing it up every time. SHOW ME that he thought about it, and share HIS moments of pain with ME!!! And he has.


I hope this gives you an idea of where to start. And don't LB the way I did - not the greatest plan!!!!!!


Our talk was a little longer, maybe an hour. But we planned for it.


And don't you accept his "I suffered from your lack of love for years" crappola, no no no no no.

You look at him and say, "Bubba, that train runs both ways and you know it. Love is given and taken. Nobody is in this marriage alone, and we got to this point TOGETHER. Your affair is on YOU, not on me. I accept my share of the problems in this marriage, but I will never accept the blame for your decision to have an affair - so do not ever go there again."

And you walk away and leave him in his boots full of his crappola, girl. He will NOT argue, because he will have had his handed to him, and he will know it.

SB