Hi, I'm new to this website and this is my first post. I've looked around a lot for a similar situation but haven't found one yet, so I thought I'd try posting and see what happens. This is kind of long, but my situation is a little complicated and doesn't exactly fit anything I've seen described so far.

First, the normal background stuff that DOES fit some of the common affair scenarios. My wife and I have been married 26 years and have two teenage kids, 16, 18. We're in the middle of dealing with an online affair that I had. It started this year in March, I told my wife about it in May, and we've been in counseling since June. We've read numerous books, online info, including "His Needs, Her Needs," and we both realize that the affair happened because of neglect to the marriage and unmet needs. Our counselor has described our situation as one of invisible divorce; we're married on paper, but that's about it. My wife seems more committed to working on re-building our marriage than I do, and our counselor has described my position as being on the fence; I don't want to stay, but I don't want to leave. I don't want to stay because the marriage feels like nothing to me, but I don't want to leave because we have kids.

During the last 10-15 years, our marriage slowly deteriorated. I wasn't paying enough attention to my wife, and she complained about it. She said hurtful things that caused me to pull away from her. In hindsight, we now realize that she didn't mean what she said and that she was only trying to get my attention. One incident stands out as having been the final straw that led the invisible divorce. She had a platonic relationship with a male colleague whom she said she felt more connected to than me, and I felt threatened by that. The first time she went on a business trip with him (planned flight, hotel, conferences together), I got very upset. I believed her (and still do) that nothing physical was going on, but I was worried about the possibilities. We went through some counseling and she agreed not to take another trip with him. A year or two later, she planned another trip -- flight, hotel, everything, together. Needless to say, I was very upset, again not that I thought anything was happening between the two of them, but that she had told me she wouldn't and now she was doing it again. Our marriage was pretty empty by then, and I told her before the trip that this could severely damage our already fragile marriage. She said she didn't care what happened to our marriage and that she was going on the trip anyways, which she did. I remember consciously saying to myself that I was pulling out of the marriage. I didn't want a divorce because of the kids, but I would resign myself to living in a lifeless marriage and just try to find happiness on my own. That was my fault, I shouldn't have done that, but that's what happened. That was 2-3 years ago.

For the next several years, we pretty much lived like roommates. There were no marital feelings. I wasn't sexually attracted to her, I didn't look forward to spending time with her, she was like a sister to me, not a wife. We were in a parallel marriage, invisibly divorced.

Here are the details that make this situation a little different from others I've seen. Because I wasn't sexually attracted to her, she thought I had some problems. From time to time, every 3 or 4 months, she threw out the idea that maybe I should look at porn to rekindle sexual desire. I had had problems with porn in the past and didn't want to go that route, but after her suggestions started to feel like nagging, I did ..... and life has never been the same. She was across the country visiting her ailing parents, and I found a porn website that had live girls that would chat with guys. I had never seen anything like that before and was shocked that it even existed. After a few sessions on the website, I quickly realized that this was not what my wife had in mind when she suggested porn. So I tried to rationalize my actions, and I got into a discussion with one of the women on the website about how to improve my wife's and my sex life. This woman was more than happy to help, and in fact she did. My wife even noticed some improvements in our sex life. In talking with the online woman, we developed a friendship, and I didn't realize it was happening until too late. When I initially went to the website, I had no intention of an affair happening, but it did. About a month after meeting the online woman, I decided I had to tell my wife; I didn't feel good about the deception. About that time, my wife's father died, and I had to hold my secret for a while because I didn't want to add to her grieving. I finally told her in May, and she was devastated, and we're now working through the impact of the affair.

What's different about this is that in most of what I've read about affairs, the husband gets a rude awakening when the affair is revealed, feels very sorry for what he did, realizes he loves his wife, and rolls up his sleeves and gets to work on restoring his marriage. That's not what's happening with me. Other than the fact that I hurt my wife's feelings and caused her a lot of emotional pain, I'm not really sorry for what I did. I feel like I SHOULD be sorry, but I'm not really. I don't feel that I love my wife right now. I pulled out of the marriage several years ago, and I don't feel like there's anything worth working for. Because of the kids, I'm not ready to get divorced, but I don't really feel a need to try to fix our marriage. My wife, on the other hand, desperately wants to fix things. She's been trying to change a lot to refocus on our marriage. She also feels that there's a love for her somewhere inside me that will eventually show up. I feel like we could spend a lot of energy working on things and maybe get some temporary fixes, but I don't think we'll ever restore the light and easy, fun relationship we used to have. I think it will always feel like a lot of work, like we have to work hard just to keep things manageable.

The advice I see all over this website and other material I've read says that I absolutely have to stop contacting the other woman. I agree that that would be the best thing from my wife's point of view, but since I gave up on the marriage a while ago, I don't want to stop contacting her. She's not trying to steal me away from my wife, we have a good friendship, and I enjoy emailing her. I'm sure someone is going to mention addiction, but I'm positive I'm not addicted. There are too many affair stories I've read where the husband just can't stand not contacting the other woman. He feels compelled to contact her. And when he tries to stop, he goes into depression. I'm not like that. We exchange emails, but if I don't hear from her for a while, I don't start missing her. I don't have fantasies of running off with her. She's a porn star! How could I do that? She knows all about my situation and can sympathize with my wife, but she enjoys our friendship. I'm sure someone's going to reply that I simply have to break contact with her, but I don't want to. I'm not trying to hide it either. I've decided that dishonesty is bad. Even though my wife doesn't like it, she knows that I'm still in contact with the other woman. It hurts her, I know, but at least she knows the truth. Maybe this is a sign that I don't value my marriage very highly. It's true -- I don't feel much like trying to work things out. I guess I don't see much value in working things out. It's kind like a cost-benefit thing. For the effort involved, I don't see the benefit of making my marriage work.

Another thing that's different about this affair is that the ones I've read about are either the one-night-stands or they start out as casual friendships that develop into sexual relationships. Mine is different. It started out as porn, very sexual, but quickly changed into an emotional affair. Our interaction is via email, IM, or phone, that's it; I've never met the woman in person and don't think I ever will. Although it was sexual at first, it's not now, and it feels very much to me just like any other friendship I have. The only problem is that from my wife's point of view, the sexual nature at the beginning of the relationship makes it unacceptable, and I can understand her feeling that way.

Even though this online affair has caused a lot of pain in our lives, both my wife and I realize that it will turn out to be a good thing in the long run. Before, we were just cruising along, not bothering to care about our marriage. Now, we've decided that we either have to make it better or end it. We don't want to keep cruising along. As I said earlier, she's more committed than I am to making it work. I'm willingly going through counseling, reading lots of books on relationships, spending many, many hours talking with her about our feelings. In fact, we both realize that even though the topics are painful at times, our communication is better now than it has been in years. I'm ok with the marital therapy we're doing, but so far it hasn't stimulated any real desire in me to work things out. I sort of wish it would, but so far it's not.

Sometimes I feel like telling my wife, "Look, I don't care much about making the marriage work anymore. I don't want you to get your hopes up trying to work things out when my heart is not in it. Maybe we should just bide our time until our second kid is out of the house and then split." I feel a little guilty that she really wants to work things out and I don't. I know it's a sad thing to be so apathetic about a marriage, and I know it doesn't feel good on her end to know that, but that's honestly the way I feel. For her to want to work things out and me not, makes me think she'd be better off with someone else who would respect her more. I don't want to lead her on.

So why I am posting all this? I guess I'm looking for someone's assessment of whether this marriage can be saved or not, whether it's worth saving, whether my desire to work on our marriage will ever come back, whether my wife is being too tolerant of me and deserves someone better, things like that. After re-reading all of this before posting, I can see how someone who doesn't know me would think I'm a bad, uncaring, unworthy person. I do care about my wife, and I want her to be happy, but I'm being honest with her in saying that I don't know if I'm the one who can make her happy. She's still sticking with me hoping that things will turn around, and I admire her for that, but I really don't want her to get her hopes up too much. I want her to have a realistic picture of the prospects ahead of her. Any thoughts?

Reading some of your post I would like to try and respond but I am having trouble since my Troll Alert keeps going off. I cannot even concentrate.....

I was really trying too.....

So you and your wife grew apart.

Well, you need to stop conversing with your friend, send a No Contact letter, and let your wife fill your EN's.

Why don't you start by printing those out and filling them out with your wife? You said you don't want to divorce, right? So what can it hurt for you to start by doing that?

But first the NC letter.

brwmb,

First of all welcome to MB. Second you can expect to get some really 2x4's upside the head for this post. Perhaps you will feel like my post is a 2x4.

I must say you must not have carefully read the articles by Harley, nor his books. What you describe is very common, the only difference is you are "paying" for your online affair with a woman that wants to keep you online, but not in her life.

So what makes your affair common? First it is an Emotional affair, EA. These are very common, and are just as if not more destructive as a physical affair, PA. Why more destructive, because often the WS does not really think it is an affair. They will acknowledge it is inappropriate, but not nearly as bad as "having sex." Wrong, it is just as bad for the same reason. An affair draws attention from the marriage and focus' it on the other person, OP.

The other thing that is very common about your situation is the condition of the marriage before the affair. You are in withdrawal, and actually so was your W. That is why she said the things she did with respect to her traveling companion. Withdrawl, is manifested by "not caring" if the marriage makes it or not. You both are in withdrawal. THus, the marriage had no chance.

Now that your EA has shocked your W, she is no longer in withdrawal, but you are. Hence your feelings. Again very common and often seen on these boards. It is just that the person in withdrawal doesn't often post and if they do it is in the EN section rather than this one.

Realistically, you are addicted to OW. You say you are not, then you say, "but". That "but" is all I need to know. It is like a smoker or a drinker saying I can quit anytime I want, I just don't want to. Hello, knowing it is wrong, knowing it is bad, and "not wanting to" is addiction.

Your marriage has no chance IF you continue the EA, it would be more honorable for you to end the EA, and then end the marriage. Unless you think only an online, pay to talk woman, will find you attractive and interesting. I doubt that is the case very much.

I will repeat or paraphrase the advice one gets when they find themselves in a deep hole and wonder what to do. You need to end the EA, now.

It is very normal that you do not really care if the marriage really makes it or not. However, you do want to continue it because of the kids. My suggestion if you are going to continue it, why not have some fun, some love, some attention, and a good marriage? You were not/are not happy right now. Yes, the EA gives you something to hold on to, but are you happy? I doubt it. Are you proud of yourself? I doubt it. Do you want a woman that cares for you and loves you in your life? I'm thinking you do.

Your W may well be that woman. It is time you found out for sure. She is motivated, the tools are here and with your counselor, your marriage is going to continue anyway according to you. So tell me what have you got to lose? You just might find out that the both of you have learned enough to have one heck of a marriage.

The process can be painful, but so is divorce even if it is just emotional for the moment. The process can be joyful, but emotional divorce will not be. You are going to hurt no matter what. You can be happy IF you give this thing a shot.

Please think about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

PS; Harley points out that the betrayed spouse, BS, often never receives an apology. So you not feeling sorry right now is pretty normal as well.

Here's my short reply to your long post....

**EDIT**

I don't understand this relationship with the porn star. If you don't miss her when there is no contact, then why do you say that you don't want to break contact? Why when you know breaking contact is the right thing to do, would you not do that?

At the very least, your marriage needs to be decided on it's own terms, just you and her. If there is any other person involved, it's not going to get a fair chance. Your wife deserves that, and since you care about her that's what you should do.

And as if you've said that you've read alot around here, I'm sure you've heard about the 'fog' of the wayward spouse. How can you know that that isn't you right now? How can you be sure? Do you want to end this only to find that it was a mistake and you just weren't thinking right?

I think you should think about how bad you felt when your wife had an EA everytime you want to talk to this girl. You're causing your wife the same pain that you felt at the very least.

And what about your kids? Do you want them to learn from your example? Would you want them to leave a marriage just because you're not feeling it anymore?

Are you completely open about your online relationship? Does your family and friends no about this? If not, why not? If it's nothing to feel bad about, that shouldn't be a problem.

You seem like a pretty level headed guy, but I think you're lying to yourself and those you care about by saying that this online stuff is not a big deal and isn't effecting you.

Do you ever try and think about the times that you and yoru wife were doing great, early on in your marriage? Why can't you have that back? Is it a better life then what you're thinking your life is going to be like after a divorce?

And I hate the idea that marriage is all about feelings. Nobody promised you (or me) that it was going to be easy and you would always feel strongly for your wife. There are no conditions in the wedding vows, just commitments. And love is not just simply a feeling, it's a verb too. You have to work to show your love and then the feelings can come. I'd recommend you try and look at the big picture, look at the future, try to have some faith and work on your marriage. Give it a fair shake, for you and the woman you care about, for your family. If it doesn't work out, then you'll atleast know that you gave it all that it deserves.


edit: And you are darn lucky you have a wife that wants to be with you and work on your marriage. Some of us don't have that and we did not cheat on our wives. Do not take that for granted.

brwmb,
I read your story and in some sort of way it's like role reversal for my story. I'm here (the BH) really trying to save my marriage. The love I have for my WW after everything bad she has done to me has almost been "re-ignited". The last year or so our marriage has been like you said parallel, stable, but not fulfilling. She's been kinda saying the same things as you, on the fence. BUT the difference is that she has left and is on a PA.
That said both of you have been very hurt by eachother and doesn't seem like either of you have appologized for what you've done. Seems like neither one of you are stepping to the plate to meet eachothers ENs.

Looks like your W got a wake up call of of a sudden a new breath of life, a new meaning to what you mean to her and she wants to work on it! (I am like her, I realized the person I had become over the last year was not who my wife loved and who she was first attracted to) and I have WOKEN UP! But she is like you very unsure of any direction she wants to take.

What I think, this is my .02 only. I'm no expert and I'm still learning here. If I was in her boots I would like this to happen in a perfect world....
1) Talk to her honestly no matter what, don't tell her what she might want to her, don't sugar coat. It only confuses the other person because the is no clear message.
2) Give it a chance, set a time period, say 6 months and review then. Make sure she is aware that this could be the end.
3) Talk about and take action in meeting eachothers ENs. Do it for her and do it for yourself. If something is lacking express it to eachother.


That's a start

"I don't understand this relationship with the porn star."

What is there to understand...it is all bogus to see if we are smart or stupid. No real help is desired here...

Just so you understand that the man responding to you (alonewithouther) is in the midst of a tremendous amount of pain. He has taken the time from his own pain to try and help you. I hope you appreciate that.

Me, I'm a lot further along and stand by my first comment.

Good luck to you.

100% text book, especially the part about thinking your situation is special. If I had a dime for every time I read that by a WS, I'd be very rich.

Here's what Dr. Harley writes about WS' (wayward spouse) not feeling remorse, contrary to your post brwmb:


"Common" thats your affair, brwmb. COMMON.

Source: Click Here

Please, really do some serious reading of the articles written by Dr. Harley. They will help you understand that what you are experiencing is not special or unique in any way, but instead its very common. And btw, your marriage IS very fixable.

Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Jo

We'll I'm hoping he'll elaborate on that so that it's easier for him to see for himself what's really going on there. I know he's looking for validation and not help, but atleast he's looking, and hopefully can accept some disagreeable opinions.

There are some that won't listen to anyone that won't validate there thoughts and feelings.



I'm currently thinking this isn't a troll, but maybe I'm a fool.

B:

WOW.

I just don't know what to say.

Well, Ok.

1. Stop Faking. If your not going to even attempt to quit, don't read the books/attend counceling, etc because you are faking it.

2. Your OW. If you stopped paying, would she stop answering? If yes, than realize that your just a john. If no, then stop calling her anyway.

3. What have you told you children? Dad's talking all the time to a "porn star!" "Ain't I great!" You have rubbed your W's face in it, so, no reason to say anything to her, but what about your children? Would they be proud of dear old dad?

4. Before you think I'm just being rude, I was in a PA for 4.5 years. I KNOW all about the distance in a M ANd how mean my spouse could be. Just like your BW, that changed on d-day. SHE became a guiding light and FULL partner in recovery. I joined in, as well. It was tough at first, but away we went. That was THREE years ago.

You CAN do this.

LG

yeah, okay sure.

and for your friendship she now only charges you 3.00 per minute right?

another fake story.

BIG FAT LIE

Love dem big boldy fonties today, don't you Pep?

*** smooches ***

Oh good lord.

none of ya's beter NEVER, EVER give me any hassle ever again.

I'm a sain't compared to this dood.

a saint you ain't

.... and besides .... consider raising YOUR bar a LOT higher than this feller in order to avoid hassles in this pack 'O nuts

zPep'sta

I figured someone would get my play on words.

I know I'm no sain't I have been forsaken, publicly.