Hi, I'm new to this website and this is my first post. I've looked around a lot for a similar situation but haven't found one yet, so I thought I'd try posting and see what happens. This is kind of long, but my situation is a little complicated and doesn't exactly fit anything I've seen described so far.

First, the normal background stuff that DOES fit some of the common affair scenarios. My wife and I have been married 26 years and have two teenage kids, 16, 18. We're in the middle of dealing with an online affair that I had. It started this year in March, I told my wife about it in May, and we've been in counseling since June. We've read numerous books, online info, including "His Needs, Her Needs," and we both realize that the affair happened because of neglect to the marriage and unmet needs. Our counselor has described our situation as one of invisible divorce; we're married on paper, but that's about it. My wife seems more committed to working on re-building our marriage than I do, and our counselor has described my position as being on the fence; I don't want to stay, but I don't want to leave. I don't want to stay because the marriage feels like nothing to me, but I don't want to leave because we have kids.

During the last 10-15 years, our marriage slowly deteriorated. I wasn't paying enough attention to my wife, and she complained about it. She said hurtful things that caused me to pull away from her. In hindsight, we now realize that she didn't mean what she said and that she was only trying to get my attention. One incident stands out as having been the final straw that led the invisible divorce. She had a platonic relationship with a male colleague whom she said she felt more connected to than me, and I felt threatened by that. The first time she went on a business trip with him (planned flight, hotel, conferences together), I got very upset. I believed her (and still do) that nothing physical was going on, but I was worried about the possibilities. We went through some counseling and she agreed not to take another trip with him. A year or two later, she planned another trip -- flight, hotel, everything, together. Needless to say, I was very upset, again not that I thought anything was happening between the two of them, but that she had told me she wouldn't and now she was doing it again. Our marriage was pretty empty by then, and I told her before the trip that this could severely damage our already fragile marriage. She said she didn't care what happened to our marriage and that she was going on the trip anyways, which she did. I remember consciously saying to myself that I was pulling out of the marriage. I didn't want a divorce because of the kids, but I would resign myself to living in a lifeless marriage and just try to find happiness on my own. That was my fault, I shouldn't have done that, but that's what happened. That was 2-3 years ago.

For the next several years, we pretty much lived like roommates. There were no marital feelings. I wasn't sexually attracted to her, I didn't look forward to spending time with her, she was like a sister to me, not a wife. We were in a parallel marriage, invisibly divorced.

Here are the details that make this situation a little different from others I've seen. Because I wasn't sexually attracted to her, she thought I had some problems. From time to time, every 3 or 4 months, she threw out the idea that maybe I should look at porn to rekindle sexual desire. I had had problems with porn in the past and didn't want to go that route, but after her suggestions started to feel like nagging, I did ..... and life has never been the same. She was across the country visiting her ailing parents, and I found a porn website that had live girls that would chat with guys. I had never seen anything like that before and was shocked that it even existed. After a few sessions on the website, I quickly realized that this was not what my wife had in mind when she suggested porn. So I tried to rationalize my actions, and I got into a discussion with one of the women on the website about how to improve my wife's and my sex life. This woman was more than happy to help, and in fact she did. My wife even noticed some improvements in our sex life. In talking with the online woman, we developed a friendship, and I didn't realize it was happening until too late. When I initially went to the website, I had no intention of an affair happening, but it did. About a month after meeting the online woman, I decided I had to tell my wife; I didn't feel good about the deception. About that time, my wife's father died, and I had to hold my secret for a while because I didn't want to add to her grieving. I finally told her in May, and she was devastated, and we're now working through the impact of the affair.

What's different about this is that in most of what I've read about affairs, the husband gets a rude awakening when the affair is revealed, feels very sorry for what he did, realizes he loves his wife, and rolls up his sleeves and gets to work on restoring his marriage. That's not what's happening with me. Other than the fact that I hurt my wife's feelings and caused her a lot of emotional pain, I'm not really sorry for what I did. I feel like I SHOULD be sorry, but I'm not really. I don't feel that I love my wife right now. I pulled out of the marriage several years ago, and I don't feel like there's anything worth working for. Because of the kids, I'm not ready to get divorced, but I don't really feel a need to try to fix our marriage. My wife, on the other hand, desperately wants to fix things. She's been trying to change a lot to refocus on our marriage. She also feels that there's a love for her somewhere inside me that will eventually show up. I feel like we could spend a lot of energy working on things and maybe get some temporary fixes, but I don't think we'll ever restore the light and easy, fun relationship we used to have. I think it will always feel like a lot of work, like we have to work hard just to keep things manageable.

The advice I see all over this website and other material I've read says that I absolutely have to stop contacting the other woman. I agree that that would be the best thing from my wife's point of view, but since I gave up on the marriage a while ago, I don't want to stop contacting her. She's not trying to steal me away from my wife, we have a good friendship, and I enjoy emailing her. I'm sure someone is going to mention addiction, but I'm positive I'm not addicted. There are too many affair stories I've read where the husband just can't stand not contacting the other woman. He feels compelled to contact her. And when he tries to stop, he goes into depression. I'm not like that. We exchange emails, but if I don't hear from her for a while, I don't start missing her. I don't have fantasies of running off with her. She's a porn star! How could I do that? She knows all about my situation and can sympathize with my wife, but she enjoys our friendship. I'm sure someone's going to reply that I simply have to break contact with her, but I don't want to. I'm not trying to hide it either. I've decided that dishonesty is bad. Even though my wife doesn't like it, she knows that I'm still in contact with the other woman. It hurts her, I know, but at least she knows the truth. Maybe this is a sign that I don't value my marriage very highly. It's true -- I don't feel much like trying to work things out. I guess I don't see much value in working things out. It's kind like a cost-benefit thing. For the effort involved, I don't see the benefit of making my marriage work.

Another thing that's different about this affair is that the ones I've read about are either the one-night-stands or they start out as casual friendships that develop into sexual relationships. Mine is different. It started out as porn, very sexual, but quickly changed into an emotional affair. Our interaction is via email, IM, or phone, that's it; I've never met the woman in person and don't think I ever will. Although it was sexual at first, it's not now, and it feels very much to me just like any other friendship I have. The only problem is that from my wife's point of view, the sexual nature at the beginning of the relationship makes it unacceptable, and I can understand her feeling that way.

Even though this online affair has caused a lot of pain in our lives, both my wife and I realize that it will turn out to be a good thing in the long run. Before, we were just cruising along, not bothering to care about our marriage. Now, we've decided that we either have to make it better or end it. We don't want to keep cruising along. As I said earlier, she's more committed than I am to making it work. I'm willingly going through counseling, reading lots of books on relationships, spending many, many hours talking with her about our feelings. In fact, we both realize that even though the topics are painful at times, our communication is better now than it has been in years. I'm ok with the marital therapy we're doing, but so far it hasn't stimulated any real desire in me to work things out. I sort of wish it would, but so far it's not.

Sometimes I feel like telling my wife, "Look, I don't care much about making the marriage work anymore. I don't want you to get your hopes up trying to work things out when my heart is not in it. Maybe we should just bide our time until our second kid is out of the house and then split." I feel a little guilty that she really wants to work things out and I don't. I know it's a sad thing to be so apathetic about a marriage, and I know it doesn't feel good on her end to know that, but that's honestly the way I feel. For her to want to work things out and me not, makes me think she'd be better off with someone else who would respect her more. I don't want to lead her on.

So why I am posting all this? I guess I'm looking for someone's assessment of whether this marriage can be saved or not, whether it's worth saving, whether my desire to work on our marriage will ever come back, whether my wife is being too tolerant of me and deserves someone better, things like that. After re-reading all of this before posting, I can see how someone who doesn't know me would think I'm a bad, uncaring, unworthy person. I do care about my wife, and I want her to be happy, but I'm being honest with her in saying that I don't know if I'm the one who can make her happy. She's still sticking with me hoping that things will turn around, and I admire her for that, but I really don't want her to get her hopes up too much. I want her to have a realistic picture of the prospects ahead of her. Any thoughts?

Reading some of your post I would like to try and respond but I am having trouble since my Troll Alert keeps going off. I cannot even concentrate.....

I was really trying too.....

So you and your wife grew apart.

Well, you need to stop conversing with your friend, send a No Contact letter, and let your wife fill your EN's.

Why don't you start by printing those out and filling them out with your wife? You said you don't want to divorce, right? So what can it hurt for you to start by doing that?

But first the NC letter.

brwmb,

First of all welcome to MB. Second you can expect to get some really 2x4's upside the head for this post. Perhaps you will feel like my post is a 2x4.

I must say you must not have carefully read the articles by Harley, nor his books. What you describe is very common, the only difference is you are "paying" for your online affair with a woman that wants to keep you online, but not in her life.

So what makes your affair common? First it is an Emotional affair, EA. These are very common, and are just as if not more destructive as a physical affair, PA. Why more destructive, because often the WS does not really think it is an affair. They will acknowledge it is inappropriate, but not nearly as bad as "having sex." Wrong, it is just as bad for the same reason. An affair draws attention from the marriage and focus' it on the other person, OP.

The other thing that is very common about your situation is the condition of the marriage before the affair. You are in withdrawal, and actually so was your W. That is why she said the things she did with respect to her traveling companion. Withdrawl, is manifested by "not caring" if the marriage makes it or not. You both are in withdrawal. THus, the marriage had no chance.

Now that your EA has shocked your W, she is no longer in withdrawal, but you are. Hence your feelings. Again very common and often seen on these boards. It is just that the person in withdrawal doesn't often post and if they do it is in the EN section rather than this one.

Realistically, you are addicted to OW. You say you are not, then you say, "but". That "but" is all I need to know. It is like a smoker or a drinker saying I can quit anytime I want, I just don't want to. Hello, knowing it is wrong, knowing it is bad, and "not wanting to" is addiction.

Your marriage has no chance IF you continue the EA, it would be more honorable for you to end the EA, and then end the marriage. Unless you think only an online, pay to talk woman, will find you attractive and interesting. I doubt that is the case very much.

I will repeat or paraphrase the advice one gets when they find themselves in a deep hole and wonder what to do. You need to end the EA, now.

It is very normal that you do not really care if the marriage really makes it or not. However, you do want to continue it because of the kids. My suggestion if you are going to continue it, why not have some fun, some love, some attention, and a good marriage? You were not/are not happy right now. Yes, the EA gives you something to hold on to, but are you happy? I doubt it. Are you proud of yourself? I doubt it. Do you want a woman that cares for you and loves you in your life? I'm thinking you do.

Your W may well be that woman. It is time you found out for sure. She is motivated, the tools are here and with your counselor, your marriage is going to continue anyway according to you. So tell me what have you got to lose? You just might find out that the both of you have learned enough to have one heck of a marriage.

The process can be painful, but so is divorce even if it is just emotional for the moment. The process can be joyful, but emotional divorce will not be. You are going to hurt no matter what. You can be happy IF you give this thing a shot.

Please think about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

PS; Harley points out that the betrayed spouse, BS, often never receives an apology. So you not feeling sorry right now is pretty normal as well.

Here's my short reply to your long post....

**EDIT**

I don't understand this relationship with the porn star. If you don't miss her when there is no contact, then why do you say that you don't want to break contact? Why when you know breaking contact is the right thing to do, would you not do that?

At the very least, your marriage needs to be decided on it's own terms, just you and her. If there is any other person involved, it's not going to get a fair chance. Your wife deserves that, and since you care about her that's what you should do.

And as if you've said that you've read alot around here, I'm sure you've heard about the 'fog' of the wayward spouse. How can you know that that isn't you right now? How can you be sure? Do you want to end this only to find that it was a mistake and you just weren't thinking right?

I think you should think about how bad you felt when your wife had an EA everytime you want to talk to this girl. You're causing your wife the same pain that you felt at the very least.

And what about your kids? Do you want them to learn from your example? Would you want them to leave a marriage just because you're not feeling it anymore?

Are you completely open about your online relationship? Does your family and friends no about this? If not, why not? If it's nothing to feel bad about, that shouldn't be a problem.

You seem like a pretty level headed guy, but I think you're lying to yourself and those you care about by saying that this online stuff is not a big deal and isn't effecting you.

Do you ever try and think about the times that you and yoru wife were doing great, early on in your marriage? Why can't you have that back? Is it a better life then what you're thinking your life is going to be like after a divorce?

And I hate the idea that marriage is all about feelings. Nobody promised you (or me) that it was going to be easy and you would always feel strongly for your wife. There are no conditions in the wedding vows, just commitments. And love is not just simply a feeling, it's a verb too. You have to work to show your love and then the feelings can come. I'd recommend you try and look at the big picture, look at the future, try to have some faith and work on your marriage. Give it a fair shake, for you and the woman you care about, for your family. If it doesn't work out, then you'll atleast know that you gave it all that it deserves.


edit: And you are darn lucky you have a wife that wants to be with you and work on your marriage. Some of us don't have that and we did not cheat on our wives. Do not take that for granted.

brwmb,
I read your story and in some sort of way it's like role reversal for my story. I'm here (the BH) really trying to save my marriage. The love I have for my WW after everything bad she has done to me has almost been "re-ignited". The last year or so our marriage has been like you said parallel, stable, but not fulfilling. She's been kinda saying the same things as you, on the fence. BUT the difference is that she has left and is on a PA.
That said both of you have been very hurt by eachother and doesn't seem like either of you have appologized for what you've done. Seems like neither one of you are stepping to the plate to meet eachothers ENs.

Looks like your W got a wake up call of of a sudden a new breath of life, a new meaning to what you mean to her and she wants to work on it! (I am like her, I realized the person I had become over the last year was not who my wife loved and who she was first attracted to) and I have WOKEN UP! But she is like you very unsure of any direction she wants to take.

What I think, this is my .02 only. I'm no expert and I'm still learning here. If I was in her boots I would like this to happen in a perfect world....
1) Talk to her honestly no matter what, don't tell her what she might want to her, don't sugar coat. It only confuses the other person because the is no clear message.
2) Give it a chance, set a time period, say 6 months and review then. Make sure she is aware that this could be the end.
3) Talk about and take action in meeting eachothers ENs. Do it for her and do it for yourself. If something is lacking express it to eachother.


That's a start

"I don't understand this relationship with the porn star."

What is there to understand...it is all bogus to see if we are smart or stupid. No real help is desired here...

Just so you understand that the man responding to you (alonewithouther) is in the midst of a tremendous amount of pain. He has taken the time from his own pain to try and help you. I hope you appreciate that.

Me, I'm a lot further along and stand by my first comment.

Good luck to you.

100% text book, especially the part about thinking your situation is special. If I had a dime for every time I read that by a WS, I'd be very rich.

Here's what Dr. Harley writes about WS' (wayward spouse) not feeling remorse, contrary to your post brwmb:


"Common" thats your affair, brwmb. COMMON.

Source: Click Here

Please, really do some serious reading of the articles written by Dr. Harley. They will help you understand that what you are experiencing is not special or unique in any way, but instead its very common. And btw, your marriage IS very fixable.

Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Jo

We'll I'm hoping he'll elaborate on that so that it's easier for him to see for himself what's really going on there. I know he's looking for validation and not help, but atleast he's looking, and hopefully can accept some disagreeable opinions.

There are some that won't listen to anyone that won't validate there thoughts and feelings.



I'm currently thinking this isn't a troll, but maybe I'm a fool.

B:

WOW.

I just don't know what to say.

Well, Ok.

1. Stop Faking. If your not going to even attempt to quit, don't read the books/attend counceling, etc because you are faking it.

2. Your OW. If you stopped paying, would she stop answering? If yes, than realize that your just a john. If no, then stop calling her anyway.

3. What have you told you children? Dad's talking all the time to a "porn star!" "Ain't I great!" You have rubbed your W's face in it, so, no reason to say anything to her, but what about your children? Would they be proud of dear old dad?

4. Before you think I'm just being rude, I was in a PA for 4.5 years. I KNOW all about the distance in a M ANd how mean my spouse could be. Just like your BW, that changed on d-day. SHE became a guiding light and FULL partner in recovery. I joined in, as well. It was tough at first, but away we went. That was THREE years ago.

You CAN do this.

LG

yeah, okay sure.

and for your friendship she now only charges you 3.00 per minute right?

another fake story.

BIG FAT LIE

Love dem big boldy fonties today, don't you Pep?

*** smooches ***

Oh good lord.

none of ya's beter NEVER, EVER give me any hassle ever again.

I'm a sain't compared to this dood.

a saint you ain't

.... and besides .... consider raising YOUR bar a LOT higher than this feller in order to avoid hassles in this pack 'O nuts

zPep'sta

I figured someone would get my play on words.

I know I'm no sain't I have been forsaken, publicly.

Wow! Thanks to everyone for their replies. I'm surprised that so many people took the time to read my story and reply (sorry it was so long). A lot of very helpful comments. Especially the one from Alonewithouther. It's great to hear from someone in a similar but role-reversed situation; it gives me a better understanding of what my wife is going through. And thank you iam for pointing out that I should thank Alonewithouther. Because of my current indifference to my marriage, I can't fully appreciate the pain Alonewithouther is going through, but his forum name pretty much says it all, and makes me sad.

I'm pretty new to webposting and there are a couple of replies that mention troll and troll-alert. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like they're suspicious of my sincerity. If that IS what it means, sorry if I don't sound sincere, but I am. If it's not, can someone please tell me what troll means? And all the acronyms made it hard to read - kept having to go to another page to decipher them. Hope you don't mind me spelling things out here, I'm not used to the lingo yet.

JustLearning, thanks for your help, and no, it doesn't feel like a 2x4 A couple of responses to your post. First, I am not paying for my online, I hate to even call it an affair anymore because it feels more like a friendship. True, when I first met this woman online, I paid to see her. But currently, my only contact with her is via email, IM, and phone -- everything's free of charge. Second, I have read about emotional affairs, and I agree that mine was an emotional affair for the first 2+ months. But since my wife and I have been in counseling, our communication has improved a lot, and the unmet need for communication that my online affair provided, is now being met by my wife. I don't feel a need for communicating with the other woman like I used to. She really is a friend. She's just like another friend I had, that my wife wanted me to stop seeing. It was a woman at work who I had a really nice friendship with. She was very approachable, very easy to talk with, and I felt more open with her than with my wife. I knew her for 7-8 years, nothing ever physical between us, and she recently retired. We kept in contact via email about once a week, but my wife didn't like it because she was always suspicious that something more could develop. She's a friend, plain and simple, nothing else. And the woman I met online is exactly that now. As I said in my original post, I can certainly understand my wife not wanting me to maintain contact with the online woman. I'm sure most here think I'm deceiving myself, and maybe I am, for all I know. I've told my wife that I'm still in contact with the other woman, but I don't initiate anything. My wife is very understanding of me trying to work this whole thing out and figure out my own thoughts. And like mel_vin points out, I truly am lucky to have a wife who tolerates me. It's part of what makes me feel undeserving. How can I be so uncommitted while she is? She deserves better.

I agree with you JustLearning that emotional affairs are at least as destructive as physical affairs. I completely agree, I think what I did WAS an affair, and I think emotional involvement with someone is worse than physical involvement because it involves deeper aspects of the mind. My relationship with the online woman has fizzled from an emotional affair to a casual friendship. Our emails are things like: "How's it going? How's your dog? Did you get your car fixed the other day? I had salmon for dinner last night." Stuff like that.

I read about the three states of mind in a marriage, and I completely agree that my wife and I were both in the withdrawal state and that now she is out of it (in conflict I suppose?) but I am still in it. Your comment that a person in withdrawal doesn't often post, maybe that suggests that I don't want to stay in withdrawal? Or maybe, like mel_vin said later, I'm just looking for validation. I don't know, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe it's true.

The addiction part, I knew that was coming. I only found this website yesterday and I've read a lot of the freely available articles. I may be wrong, but I think because of Harlan's models of infidelity, people who regularly visit here and subscribe to his precepts will automatically categorize ANYONE who has an affair as addicted. I don't think it's any use in arguing my point, but I'll just say that I have been through addiction before (substance abuse and alcohol), and I know from experience how controlling an addiction can be. I don't feel controlled at all by the affair I had. And the thing about knowing it is wrong means it is an addiction? I don't feel that it is wrong. When I couldn't stop taking drugs or consuming alcohol, I knew that was wrong. I'm sorry if I can't explain myself any better. All I can say is this really doesn't feel wrong to me. (Hit me with a 2x4, go ahead, I know you will

"Why not have some fun, some love, some attention, and a good marriage?" Who wouldn't want that? I sure would. But why don't I have the desire to work things out so that I have that with my wife? I don't know. It's one of the things I struggle with, how to get the desire to work on my marriage back. I've been in invisible divorce for long enough, that I wonder if I've killed my ability to get anything back. I'm going through the process, and ideally the best outcome would be for my marriage to be restored, but nothing has lit a spark in me yet. The "are you happy," "are you proud" questions, I'm sort of neutral. I'm not real happy or proud, but at the some time, I not unhappy and not ashamed. mel_vin asked a little later if I'm completely open about my online relationship. Yes, I am. Very shortly after I told my wife, I called my mom and dad and explained to them what happened. I also spoke to one of my sisters about it and a couple of my friends and told them exactly what happened. I would've told more people, but then my wife and I started counseling and our counselor advised both of us to NOT discuss things with family and friends. She had her reasons, but my wife and I have decided to go against her advice. Our counselor was ok with us doing that, as long as we were both in agreement.

Your last part about possibly having one heck of a marriage, and we can be happy if we give this thing a shot. I keep hearing that from our counselor, an online counselor I spoke with, others I've spoken with. They all say our situation is completely fixable and has a high chance of success. I keep hearing that, but so far, both my wife and I agree that the process seems painfully slow. My mom emphasized several times to me that I have to have patience, that it took a long time for our marriage to disintegrate and it'll take a long to rebuild it. Intellectually, I understand that, but it doesn't make it any easier when going through it. My wife and I both feel like just giving up at times. Is it really worth it? With only one life to live, maybe we should just take the easy way out, end things, find other people to be happy with, and move on. We both think that sometimes.

And your PS about not feeling sorry and apologizing, yes, we've addressed that too. In counseling, my wife sometimes feels as if SHE's the one who did something wrong. In honestly explaining my feelings to her, I've told her that it should be ME who feels sorry for everything, but I don't. I can't help it, but that's way I feel. Some people say you choose how you feel. I can't. For me, feelings come and go, and I don't have a lot of control over them.

mel_vin, I don't miss the other woman when there is no contact, but I don't want to break contact because I enjoy talking with her. I formed a friendship with her, a human bond. We care about each other. I'm sure most people, when they hear "porn star," think slut, tramp, sex-crazed, etc. One of the biggest benefits I have gained by meeting her is that she has de-mystified porn for me. She's a real human being with thoughts, cares, emotions, just like the rest of us. My initial attraction to her was my conflicting feelings of her as a genuinely nice, caring person and my stereotype of a porn star. "When you know breaking contact is the right thing to do," I don't know that. I know it would make my wife more comfortable, but I have to say that this woman cares about my marriage. (Ouch! I can feel the 2x4's coming!! Seriously, she does. She's not interested in breaking my marriage up. She knows what I'm going through. She's had several relationships like this occur in the past, and she has used her experience to help me deal with what I'm going through. I've explained many problems to her, and she has always sincerely tried to help. It might sound unbelievable to many of you, and I'm sure many of you are shaking your heads in disbelief, and I'm sure I'd be shaking my head too if I wasn't in the middle of this situation.

My wife has told me that in this crisis, she has spoken with other people about us and told them things that I might not like. While that might have bothered me in the past, it doesn't now. Because of what I've been through, who am I to get upset about her revealing intimate details of our marriage. It might not be the best solution for working on a marriage, but we're working towards "something," whatever that is, that will work for both of us. Might not be by the book, but if it works, hey, why not?

"Everytime you want to talk to this girl." Again, it's not like I have a desire or need to talk. We chit-chat from time to time, casual banter, and that's it. It's not like she's fulfilling an emotional need. She was for a time, but not now.

The kids thing, yeah, I agree, that's really the toughest part of this whole thing. My parents divorced when I was 17 and it really affected me. It was probably a major contributor to my getting involved in drugs and alcohol, and I would hate for that to happen to either of my kids. It's the biggest reason why I don't want to get divorced.

I do think about what my wife and I had a long time ago. It would be nice to have that back, but I just wonder if it's too far gone to ever get back. It seems like it is. And I agree that marriage is work, but it should be work that you love to do because you love the other person. You care about the other person in a unique way that makes you want to work. At this point, I don't care like that. One of the things our counselor has told me is that even if I don't feel like doing things that express love to my wife, I should do them anyways. And if I do them enough, I'll eventually feel like doing them. That's hard for me because I feel like I'm faking my feelings, I feel hypocritical. Another counselor says NOT to fake things, that if I do, my wife will sense that and it may backfire. Too confusing!

Alonewithher, thanks again for your thoughts and advice.
1) I'm being brutally honest with her. I hate that it sometimes hurts her a lot to hear my thoughts and feelings, but she want's the truth no matter how much it hurts.
2) 6 months is exactly the time our counselor said to measure improvement. If we don't see any improvement in 3 months, re-assess what we're doing. If no improvement in 3 more months, then there's no point in dragging this out. Full restoration would probably take close to 2 years.
3) We're working with our counselor on how to meet each other's needs. She's very good at knowing where each of is in our current situation and just how much space we each need and much interaction we should attempt. We're not diving in trying to meet every need -- we're taking baby steps right now. For me though, I feel like I'm faking it because my heart's not really in it. The counselor and my wife know this, but the counselor says we can work with that. She's very pro-marriage btw.

Thanks again. I told my wife about your post and will show it to her soon. She's glad that I have a chance to see things from her side and from a male perspective. I hope your situation improves. Sounds really awful. I'll be thinking about you.

Stellakat, I'm not sure how to interpret your posts. Sorry.

iam, in your second post, you said you still stand by your first post, but in the view I have of your first post, it says

Here's my short reply to your long post....

**EDIT**

Edited by Revera ( 20 minutes 6 seconds ago)
Edit Reason: TOS

Don't know what that means either. Sorry.

Resilient, thanks for pointing out the unremorseful part. I had read that but had forgotten about it when I described my situation as different. One of the main reasons I think my situation is a little different is that the online affair I developed happened because my wife prompted me to view porn. I don't think that happens very often. At least I wouldn't think many wives would suggest that. But, hey, I've been wrong before

The other thing that feels different to me is that it seems that in most of the accounts I've read about affairs, the affair is discovered accidentally, while in my case I choose to tell my wife about it. And later, Harley describes that the affair usually continues, but in secret. I'm not doing anything in secret. In fact, just tonight while I was talking with my wife about my posting here, I told her that the last email I sent to the other woman was a week ago, that I had received a reply from her over the weekend, and I had not sent a reply back. I even printed the email for her so she could read it. Again, I may be wrong, but I don't think many guys would be that open about their continuing to contact the other woman. And lastly, in most of the stories I've read, it seems that once the affair is in the open, the guy is sort of shocked into realizing he made a mistake and really loves his wife and wants to repair the marriage. I haven't experienced that. And I've been honest with my wife that I don't feel that way. It's hard for her to deal with, but it's the truth.

Thanks for the "very fixable" opinion. Even though at this point I don't feel that way, it's still good to hear people say that.

Hey lousygolger, I'll bet you're not lousier than me!! I went golfing once and it was so humbling and frustrating, I never did it again.

1. Faking it, I know, I agree with you. I hate going at this half-heartedly. One of the only reasons I do is my counselor says it's ok to feel that way now, keep at it and things'll change. I'm going with the flow, but it's not very satisfying.
2. I stopped paying a long time ago (long relative to this 4-5 month crisis). And yes, she does answer. Stop calling her - that's a tough one. I know that subscribers to the precepts of this website will vehemently disagree with me on this. I just haven't bought into that yet.
3. Haven't told the kids anything. Counselor said it's not appropriate at this time. At some point, I truly do want to describe what happened to my kids, just so that they understand that marriage isn't all that easy, that porn is something to stay away from, that dad's human after all, that human relationships are complicated, ....... lot's can be learned from this.
4. Thanks for your story. I think that's the first success story I've heard that I could identify with. It helps. It creates hope. Thanks.

Well, that sort of ends the constructive posts that I read. I guess the two from medc and Pepperband were those 2x4's you were talking about! I see what you mean. I really am pretty new to webposting, and I feel somewhat like I'm in a foreign country -- I know enough to communicate, but I don't get all the cultural idiosyncracies. I guess some folks either don't believe me or don't think I'm being sincere. I hope you can realize that I AM being sincere and am only here because I'm in the middle of a situation I never dreamed I'd be in, I didn't want to be in it, I fell into it accidentally, if I could rewind the clock, I'd do it much differently, and I'm just trying to get some perspectives from people that might help me sort all these confusing feelings out. Thanks for those of you who respect that. Peace.

As long as you continue to allow other women to meet your ENs (emotional needs) you'll not see much progress towards "in-love" feelings for your wife.

And yes, all of those other females are meeting a sub-set of your ENs, that should be met by your wife, exclusively.

And BTW, you continuing to communicate with those females, despite your wife's protest, is withdrawing love units from her love bank. They're known as Lovebusters. Empty lovebank, perceived dead marriage.

Also, most conventional counselors are not proficient in Harley's PRO-marriage concepts. The majority are navel-gazer-do what-feels-good variety. Virtually clueless when it comes to counseling infidelity. But they try, and fail miserably. And married couples suffer from their ignorance.

Ask your counselor if s/he is "PRO-marriage" and see what they say. Ask them what their plan is to recover your marriage, ask them to lay it out for you.

Harley, he gives you a PLAN, one that works. His marital coaching, bar none, yields the most success. Between Dr Harley and his children (Steve and Jen), who also Coach, they have more than 50+ years experience specializing in infidelity.

I've been here 8 years and have seen THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of your story turn around.

Stay, read, learn.

Jo

If this is true, then WHY aren't you willing to end contact with OW. You may not love your wife right now, but you say that you care about her and you KNOW that talking with OW is hurting your wife immensely. Why not stop just to save her from hurting?

I am a betrayed wife. My husband had a three year affair. I can tell you that the pain your wife is experiencing is worse than anything she has probably ever experienced. You cry thinking that you can relieve some of that horrible pressure on your chest, and you cannot cry enough to get it out. Have mercy on her. If you are indifferent to OW and she is really no more than a casual friend...give her up to save your wife from this pain.

You are in a fog right now. You don't want to save your marriage because you have checked so far out that you don't remember what your marriage was like. You need to have faith that what you had in the beginning of your marriage can be re-achieved. And you have to work on recovery based on those rational beliefs, NOT on your emotional response. Emotions will steer you wrong on this one.

Can you suggest your wife post here? There are lots of things that she can do to help your recovery while you are still foggy.

hicktownmommy

And brwmb, you do know that LOVE is a verb, actions. Feelings follow actions.

But I'm sure you knew that, yes?

****edit****

Let's avoid speculation and MB please.

****edit****

brwmb,

So let me ask. Why are you here? What do you really want?

Your marriage is fixable, but not with the woman you had an affair with still in your life.

The process of rebuilding your marriage is not secret, but it is a process. Feelings change, which is why we don't promise to "feel in-love" till death do us part. We promise to love, which is a verb, an action, till death do us part.

It is your call really. It can be done, but it takes a plan and I don't mean my diet plan: I plan to lose 20 lbs. That is not a plan that is a wish. A plan has action items, milestones, evaluation criterion, the whole thing down to the details.

To make this work you two need to develop a plan that specifies how you are going to live, how you are going to show respect for one another, how you are going to spend your free time, and how you are going to act as humans with honor.

This is really very very simple, it is just not easy.

God Bless,

JL

I hate ppl like this... I mean no feelings about there spouse of XX yrs together. Not wanting to listen...

****edit****

1. The fact/idea that your wife 'told'/'encouraged' you to use porn....

does not remove the FACT that it was a bad bad idea..

bad on her side.
bad on your side....

and you are not a victim to that choice...you still had the right to say ...

nah...I don't think that turning to a third party that does not have any respect for anyones marriage is a good idea

you are a grown man ...man up to the fact that the turn to porn independantly from your wife wasn't a good idea..
no matter the ten helpful bedroom tips you got from her...

one sided third parties who have no respect for the sanctity of a marriage...be them pornographic like the last one...or like your other emotional affair with your office mate....
or her emotional affair haven't worked for your marriage yet...

it smacks of a teenager saying...but my friend told me snorting the herion would make me feeeeeeel better...

As in all marraigebuilding...the time has come to take a long hard look at your independant behaviors in the marriage...

and decide if those acts of independance serve you and your marriage well
and decide if those are the acts of the type of man you are..

make no mistake it IS our actions that define who we are and what we believe....

and evaluate if your actions with this OW....
and the other OW (emotional affair)

create the person you want to be....

and if they do...

then you shouldn't feel bad...
but you should also wish for the same type of marriage for all your children

this is a legacy that could explode in vile

and just know that while you don't buy the addiction theory...

the continued contact that you engage in...
exactly feeds the thought patterns and brain waves needed to make it as if it is a normal thing to do...

normal friendship relationships that spouses have with others...honor the marriage unit...
in otherwords...

the friends are an asset to the marriage package...
and often come to dinner now and then with the whole family...

are you ready to have your friend break bread with the children...
ready to invite your friend and her husband/boyfriend/flavor of the month....out to dinner so the four of you can sit over margaritas and talk about how the friendship came to be...

etc etc etc

who knows what you want in a marriage...
because you aren't and don't act married...

it is the act of loving
it is the act of cherishing
it is the act of honoring

that feeds and creates a marriage

that feels loving
that feels cherished
that feels honored and fullfilling...

you need to take a deep look at you and your acts..
and take down the walls that you have built up that let you act the way you have and do...

you don't feel these things...because it takes layers and layers of rationalizing your thoughts and actions of independance in the marriage...so that you could have the emotional affairs...

all the justifications
all the denial that it isn't normal to share more with others than your wife
all the blame of what she lacks to make it happen...
your friends demystifying of porn is a good feeder in to all this crap...who wouldn't want a front row view of insight in to a person who statisctically chooses a career so very very different....
that in and of itself feeds your emotional affair...and fits nicely in to your thought processes of making it a normal friendship....

affairs are insidious tiny little creepy things...that enter in to our thoughts in tiny tiny increments....

tiny acts of saying something to the OP that you would never ever ever say if your wife was at your side...

they build over time in to full blown affairs...
and the person in the affair...

says
it just happened
we didn't mean for it to happen...
no one made it happen...

all lies...
thousands and thousand of brain cells made it happen in act and thought...

in putting the OP's needs above the spouses....

drop the time line given by the counselor it's a fake thing in which you don't have to anything but sit back and wait for the six months to pass.....to say...se we tried but it didn't work...

especially for you who so readily uses other peoples thoughts to guide you...

ie
my wife said use porn
my counselor said I only had to try for six months...

I don't mean that meanly
I mean it sincerely...

start with each tiny act you do...
stop and ask..
does this thought
does this act
do these words honor my wife
honor my marriage
and make all moves all acts from that point of view...

in other words inspite of your feelings start ACTING married..


you didn't fall in to this accidently...

this is the EXACT creation of your actions....
exact...
you did this.
all of it...

you stand at the cross road...
you are not a victim to your place in the road...nor a victim to the path you choose....


ARK^^ (perhaps the biggest waste of bandwith known to man.... ;))

how many other names have you posted under while on MB?

A troll is someone who likes to stir up the waters. They're "trolling" for a reaction.

I've re-arranged some snippets from your last post so that I can address several related statements at once. I hope you don't feel like I've taken anything out of context. If you feel like I'm twisting things around please say so and I'll adjust my style of responding.

Obviously, the first thing I want to harp on is the OW (other woman). Here's what you said about her in your last post:


On the one hand, you don't feel a need to connect to her. You don't have a desire or need to talk. You don't miss her when there's no contact.

On the other hand, you enjoy talking with her. Stopping the calls would be tough.

So, which is it?

Pretend she's a restaurant. Does the restaurant have blase' food, you don't really care to eat there, you totally wouldn't miss it if you never ate there again?

Or do you enjoy the food and would you have a really tough time making a decision to never eat there again?

My interpretation: this woman is MUCH more important to you than you care to admit. Maybe you know you're addicted and are trying to keep the level of your attraction to her a secret. Maybe you don't really care whether you talk to her or not but your pride won't let you acquiesce to someone else's request that you eliminate OW from your life. The reason isn't really important. What IS important is that you're catering to your selfish desires rather than protecting your wife from exquisite pain and suffering.

You may not feel motivated to honor, cherish, and obey your wife right now but you have to walk the walk or the rest will never fall in line.


What more do you need to know? I'm being serious here. What could POSSIBLY motivate you more, as a husband, than your wife's comfort? And I assure you, it's MUCH more than mere comfort. I can tell you of minutes in the dark hours of the morning that are so long and heavy they each take an hour to pass. Of emotional pain so severe that it hurts every nerve in the body. Of anguish so exquisite that the thought of food sends you running to the bathroom to dry heave.

Even if you and your wife ultimately decide to split, don't you see the advantage of learning how to be a good husband to someone? These are skills you're going to need eventually, with her or someone else. Heck, these are skills you'll use with your colleagues, friends, and children. You may as well start learning and practicing them unless you want to spend the only life you have in emotional divorce and leaving pain in your wake. Not an attractive legacy and I'm sure you want better. Your posts show you're clearly capable of much better.

Because you are in withdrawal.
Because your love bank is depleted.
Because you are still communicating with OW.

That's a short list but each item is a doozy. It's no wonder you don't have a desire to work things out right now! I guarantee this can change. You will be absolutely astonished how much this can change.

It is absolutely, totally, 100% normal to feel like giving up.

Marriage is kind of like a garden (you thought I was going to say a box of chocolates, didn't you?? ) If you keep at it a little bit every day, you keep the weeds at bay and the pests and diseases have little impact on your healthy plants. You enjoy bountiful harvests. It's rewarding and satisfying.

But if you neglect the marriage, weeds creep in, the plants suffer stress, disease takes hold, insects move in. The harvest is of poor quality and low quantity. You look at the garden and think "this is going to take SO MUCH work to set right again! I'd rather just till up a fresh spot and plant new seeds."

Well, you can till up a new spot and plant seeds. Just like you and your W can throw in the towel and find other people to be happy with.

EXCEPT: Neither of you would have learned the skills required to garden! If you give up now, you won't have the skills required to have a good, happy, bountiful, productive, satisfying marriage.

You can read the concepts here, or a gardening book, and say "But now I understand!" The truth of the matter is, it's not merely a matter of intellectual understanding. It also requires DOING the actions, practicing them, failing some, getting better, honing your skills.

Who better to practice good marriage skills with than your wife, who knows all your warts but still accepts and loves you? She's invested in you. You have children together. You will one day have grandchildren together. Your lives are permanently intertwined. You both have many good and valid reasons for wanting this particular marriage to be strong and happy.


Because your garden is full of weeds. When it's producing a bountiful harvest, it WILL be easy. You'll enjoy spending time on it. You WILL get back what you had a long time ago, but it is going to be so much better. I can't explain it adequately. It's like the old happy carefree days, but better because you will know how very precious that happiness is. So you take care to tend it and preserve it. You appreciate it even more because it's potentially so fragile. You will have the necessary skills to protect it and keep it strong. And you can look back over your lives together at the good and the bad and say to one another "Wow. Look how far we've come. Look what a great thing we've made."


My H was involved in an intense EA and he chose to tell me about it. While trying to recover, I became involved in an EA and I told him about it.

My H's EA continued blatantly. He got paged and read her notes to him in front of me. He went into his office and closed the door so he could chat w/her on the computer. He made many phone calls to her and did not try to hide them from me. He shared bits of their conversations with me. It was EXTREMELY painful for me.

Get rid of the OW.
Learn about POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) and USE IT.
Learn about LB (Love Busters) and eliminate them.
Learn about EN (Emotional Needs) and meet your wife's while allowing nobody else (especially a female) to meet yours.

Do this, steadfastly and without fail, for six months, then assess how you feel about your M. It won't be all roses (yet) but it will be better than it has been in YEARS, if you truly implement these tools.

I think you have three problems in your marriage right now:
OW
Independent Behavior
Lack of POJA

Of course, that's only on your side of the equation. I can't address your wife's side because I haven't heard her story and she's not here asking for advice.

You guys could be SO VERY happy. It's blatantly obvious. All you have to do is learn the tools here and use them.

However, if you just play at these tools, or move on to greener pastures, you'll be miserable again in just a few years (or less). That, too, is blatantly obvious.

Why?

You could be happy - a HUGE success - because you guys have so much going for you. A long history, kids, a desire to repair the marriage, no resentment to the point of hatred on either part.

Or you could be miserable because really the ONLY thing that is lacking in your marriage is an understanding and implementation of Harley's concepts. And if you choose not to learn them, you'll suffer the same miseries in future relationships, plus carry the pain of loss and guilt at not having really tried in this one.

I'm serious. The ONLY thing you guys need is these tools. You two could be FABULOUS together. I wish you could see it from my perspective, gained from both personal experience as well as reading about countless others' on these boards. You could have something precious beyond measure.

It's frustrating to read your post because of how you think. It's very much focused on how you feel.

You made a committment. Your feelings have nothing to do with your vows. You didn't say, "Till I don't love you anymore and I get tired of putting in the effort."

You said, "till death do us part".

One big thing to get out of the way:

Your relationship with OW who is "just a friend" is inappropriate. Why? Not because YOU think it's in appropriate. It's because your wife does.

You are getting emotional needs met by a female other than your wife. Your wife is unhappy about this friendship/relationship. End of debate. What your wife did x amount of years ago is irrelevant. Her behavior doesn't justify yours.

So what do you do since you don't have "feelings"?

You fake it till you make it. Emotions follow actions.

So have NC with OW and start dating your wife again. Let go of what's happened. Once emotions come back you'll see how inappropriate your relationship with OW is, email limited or not.

YOUR WIFE, not you, defines appropriate level of contact with memebers of the opposite sex.

You re-engage with your wife.

Ok, so this EA has been a wake up call for her.

So you don't FEEL like committing or re-engaging with your W.

Let me tell you something: My parents divorced when I was 24/25. It f*ed me up for years and led me to make very crappy decisions in my life, to include getting in relationships I shouldn't have gotten into. Why? Because my parents were too focused on their divorce to give good guidance.

Your kids may leave your home at 18, but they still need your guidance for years to come. You have 20+ years of life experience to guide them with that they haven't gone through.

Leaving their mom "just because I'm tired and not in love anymore" is not something they will like or understand.

Your big problem is that you're thinking like a wayward. It's all "my feelings" "my way of thinking" "my justifications for my 'friendship'". Me, me, me, me.

So step back and try to practice some empathy because what you're doing to your wife right now is emotional rape.

Now way to mince words about it. You're raping her emotionally.

Are you human and did things and conditions get you to this point? Yes.

But you're human, not an animal that thinks only with instincts and hormones. You have free will.

So free will needs to be engaged and this inappropriate contact that YOUR WIFE doesn't like needs to end. Find a male buddy to hang out with and confide in. Go get a priest/rabbi/minister/reverend to ask how his day was, dog, dinner, work.

So stop the "me" thinking and focus on your kids if your wife isn't motivation enough. THEY are the reason to get off the immature teenage mentality and re-engage with the woman who gave you the greatest gifts of your life: your kids.

The kids look to you. The kids will still look to you after they leave the home.

What lesson do you teach them about marriage and committments when your actions are "leave when the feelings aren't there anymore".

Marriage is a committment. Emotions have nothing to do with it. They will come and go.

"YOUR WIFE, not you, defines appropriate level of contact with memebers of the opposite sex."

I totally agree.
This is not a question to be decided between you and an OW, but between you and your wife.

It hurts to read your thread. You don't care about your wife's feelings, or you wouldn't be so cavilier about continuing to see the woman with whom you have a relationship that you choose to define as not an affair. So, if it's not an affair in your mind, then it's not an affair and therefore you have every right to continue doing it, right?

I wish you would get your wife on this board because I'd tell her to head for the hills. You will bring her nothing but pain as long as you continue with your attitude and behavior.

I had had enough after six years of doing what your wife did, and I told my husband to leave.

There are women who will stay longer. I just finished the book "Losing It" which wasn't about losing weight so much as it was about a woman who spent 20 years with a man who didn't care about how she felt. She was told she should stay for the sake of her son, and she realized she needed to leave for the sake of her son.

If you have a daughter, ask yourself if you would like her to marry a man like dear old Dad. If you have a son, ask yourself if you would like him to treat his wife like you treat your wife.

IMHO, it would be better for you, your wife, and your children if you left your family.

Cherished

I would like to take a slightly different tack...

I do not ask these questions to condemn or attack you. You don't even need to reply to me. The answers are really for you.


What value do you place on your word? Was "...love and honour, forsaking all others, till death do us part" relevant or more of a ritual for you?

How do you provide an example of a functional and loving marriage to your children? Would they learn to overcome adversity in a relationship? Could you advise them or their grandchildren in later years?

What lessons have you learned that would prevent a repeat cycle in a future relationship/marriage?

What positive aspects of your present marriage deserve appreciation? Where can you say a hearty thank you to your W?

Well, I think I need to exit this forum. It's not what I was looking for.

I mean c'mon medc, "how many other names have you posted under?" What's up with that? I told you I just found this website yesterday and made my first post. What a way to welcome someone.

And all the other posts that got edited, I can only assume they were derogatory posts. What am I supposed to think?

hicktownmommy, I was hoping to get my wife to post here so that you could see both sides of the story, because there are always two sides, but I've told her there's way too much negativity here. She still may, but I won't encourage her, and I don't think I will anymore.

JustLearning, "why am I here, what do I really want?" I want to hear from others who've been in a similar situation of indifference and find out what they did and what happened. The plan that you mention, that's what we're going through counseling for.

A_Pretty_Face, "I hate ppl like this." Thanks, that's wonderful to hear you say that. Harley's three states of mind in marriage include withdrawal. Our counselor actually has 6 or 7 states of mind, and 2 or 3 of them fall within Harley's withdrawal state. Our counselor has placed me in the "indifference" state of mind, sort of at the extreme end of Harley's withdrawal state. That's where I am. I'm being honest with you about that. My counselor knows it, my wife knows it, and we're working on it. Sorry if you hate me for that, but that's your problem, not mine.

ark^^, I agree with much of what you say. I chose the things I did, they didn't just happen to me. In hindsight, both my wife and I can see how choices we made in the past made me more susceptible to making bad choices later. Am I ready to have my friend come to dinner with my family? Absolutely. My wife and I have been talking about her and the other woman speaking on the phone together. I'd like my wife to know her and see for herself that she's a very nice person, cares about both us, wants our marriage to work out, etc. Our counselor has advised against that, but my wife is curious to know this woman, and we're thinking about it. And my other office friend? Sure, no problem. My wife and I have been to her house several times for dinner. In fact she even sort of DOES have a boyfriend of the month. She's married, has open physical contact with other men with her husband's ok, and she and her husband are one of the happiest couples I've ever seen. Surely it's not conventional, but it works for them. A lot of the other stuff after the etc etc etc sounds like psycho-babble to me; not all of it, but a lot of it does. The fact is, I've reached a state of indifference in my marriage, and my wife and I are trying to work on things knowing that I'm in that state.

turtlehead, thanks for your reply. It makes the most sense of anything I've heard so far. I know it took you a while to compose all that, and I appreciate it. Thanks for explaining trolling -- no, I am not trolling. (Actually, just happeneded to think, maybe medc is trolling, trying to get a reaction from me, maybe that's it.) Your question of which is it? It's exactly that. I don't have a need to call but I enjoy it. Just like I don't have a need for a glass of wine with dinner, but I enjoy it. It's just like that. Your comment on pride getting in the way, maybe you're right about that. I don't know, but it's something to think about, thanks. The catering to selfish desires part, yes, you are right about that. It's sort of a blow-up over pent-up resentments. We were in counseling 12-13 years ago for marriage problems, and that counselor identified that I felt like I was "walking on egg shells" whenever my wife was around. Whatever hobbies I picked up, she shut down. I quit piano lessons because she felt I was playing too much. Then I had to quit homebrewing because she complained. Then she complained that I exercised too much, etc, etc. Our current counselor explained that I was using these activities to satisfy an emotional need for acceptance when all I was getting from her was rejection. It's been like that for at least 12-13 years, and it's part of why I'm at the stage of indifference. I've had enough of the controlling influence, and, yes, it's a selfish statement that says "I'm not going to take this anymore, I don't care what you think." Yup, that's selfish, but it is what it is, and it's where I'm at right now. (And btw, you can see in my first post that she was at that same point 2-3 years ago. I'm not blaming her, and I'm not trying to defend my actions. We both made our bed and now we're having to sleep in it.)

Your interpretation that the other woman is much more important than I care to admit, etc. I don't agree, but if you're like others who believe I'm in Harley's fog, then you probably won't agree with me either. Let me put it this way: if the other woman called me up and said she didn't ever want to talk with me or email me again, I'd be ok with that. Sure, I'd wonder why and would probably ask, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

"What could possibly motivate me more than my wife's comfort?" That's a penetrating question, a good one. A VERY good one. ................. thinking .............. I don't have an easy answer for you, but I will think long and hard about that one. Thanks for phrasing it that way.

The garden analogy and the work involved is good. But let me give you a counter-analogy that I just thought of, sort of tongue-in-cheek, but it relates to something my wife and I were discussing last night. I didn't think she'd appreciate this thought, but I told her that if she wants me to be honest and tell her all my thoughts, then I would. With all the emotional energy we're expending trying to work through things, and the thoughts we both have of giving up, I wondered -- wouldn't it be nice to just stay in frivolous relationships with women who just want to have fun, no strings attached, and get away from all this complicated relationship stuff? Why do we have to work so hard? Why not take the easy way, have fun, and forget about the long-term relationship and the monogamy myth. Why not? Deep down I don't really believe that, but when I'm in the middle of all this craziness, sometimes I just feel like escaping. Or maybe polyamory is the way to go. What's wrong with loving more than one person. Solomon, supposedly the smartest man that ever lived, had something like 900 wives, didn't he? My wife actually didn't mind me saying that and understood how I could feel that way. So anyways, back to the garden analogy, instead of trying to create a wonderful garden, why not just be a weed Weeds don't take much tending at all, they can grow just about anywhere, they don't need watering, and at least in my yard, they thrive all over the place, .... and some of them actually have pretty flowers! Why not be a weed? ...... Now that I think of it, your garden analogy hits closer to home than I thought. That's pretty much the way we tend our actual garden at home. We let the weeds go for too long, and then just nuke everything with round-up periodically. Mmmmmm, .... garden -- marriage -- garden -- marriage, ... makes me wonder......

The comment "Wow, Look how far we've come. Look what a great thing we've made" sounds wonderful, but it sounds so unreachable. It sounds too idyllic at this point. If someone told me they felt that way, I'd think THEY were in a fog, that THEY were just deceiving themselves that everything was wonderful again. I know, that's a negative viewpoint, but from where I am, I can't imagine getting to a place like you describe.

Well, my earlier statement about not wanting to post here again, maybe I'll re-think that. I do feel a lot of negativity here, but turtlehead, I like what you said. Thanks.

pomdbd3, yes I did say until death do us part, and I'm not wanting a divorce. I'm just at the point of indifference and figuring out how to get out of that. The other woman relationship being inappropriate because my wife thinks it's inappropriate. Sorry, you're talking to an indifferent person, remember? That doesn't work for me right now. If you take the poj thing, or whatever it is, joint agreement, then we're in disagreement over whether to continue the online relationship or not. Should'nt we BOTH be in agreement that the relationship should either be allowed to continue or should be stopped? Shouldn't **I** feel it's inappropriate too? Oh yeah, I'm in a fog, I forgot, I'm not thinking straight.

"YOUR WIFE, not you, defines appropriate level of contact with members of the opposite sex." Sorry, no she does not, I'm indifferent, remember?

Your parents divorced, so did mine and messed me up too. That's why I'm not leaving.

============

Here's why I'm pretty sure (would be totally sure if it weren't for turtlehead) that I won't be posting anything more here. In spite of the uncaring feeling I've projected, I'm been dealing with a lot emotional hurts too. Wondering how life got so crazy, what am I doing, where am I going, why do I feel the way I feel? I was hoping for a more objective or encouraging "you can do it" kind of environment, but it seems that the posts have become increasingly judgemental, critical, like people here are chomping at the bit to crucify. (What did those edited posts really say?)

My wife and I both read the "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" post in the "Just Found Out" forum. Wow! I couldn't believe that. Such an aggressive, antagonistic tone. Maybe tough love like that works a lot of times, especially with deep addiction, but because of the indifferent state I'm in, I'm glad my wife doesn't want to follow Plan A, Plan B, Plan D. If she did, no problem, that would make it easy for me. My life would be a whole lot simpler. What's making it difficult is that she's staying with me, working with me, counseling with me, essentially forcing me to deal with the issues. If she followed plans A,B,D, that would be such an easy way out for me. Sorry, but I think that model is a little too rigid for our situation.

The feeling I get from most of the posts here is that subscribers to Harley's model feel almost religious about their convictions. It's either follow Harley's model, or you're doomed. Human relationships aren't that simple that you can cast them all into one model. Yet most of the people here seem to think you can and that Harley's model is the be-all and end-all for understanding human relationships. I guess I should've expected that since I am, after all, posting on the marriage builder website. It's just that I didn't expect to stir up such strong, vicious reactions.

One of the things I like about our counselor is that she is very flexible. She has said that we're an unusual couple and that we're not following the textbook process toward recovery. But that's ok with her; she doesn't give us this "do it this way or else it'll never work" attitude. She's working with the problems we've presented to her and she's very creative. She can quickly perceive where both my wife and I are at and always has ideas about how to proceed. (BTW, Resilient, yes, she is Pro-Marriage, very much so.) She has a plan but sees that with us, she needs to modify the plan as we go. Like I said, we're not the typical couple. Harley may have a plan, but it's a generic plan. My wife and I need a customized plan, and that's what we're getting. In the header to this forum it says that the advice offered here is only peer advice, it's not professional. I think I'll be better served to stick with professional advice.

For those of you who had constructive things about my situation, thanks -- I appreciate the time you took to think about the issues and respond. At this point, I'm not planning on seeking any more advice on this website. I'm becoming more gun-shy about hitting the submit button. You can post replies if you like. I may view them, but I doubt that I'll have anything more to say.

....... uh, except for this, ..... I was just about to post this reply when I saw the most recent one from Cherished. I appreciate your honest comments. Your sentiments are exactly how I feel at times -- that my wife deserves someone better than me. I can't promise her anything at this point, and I do care enough about her to not want her to go on believing things will work out. I want her to be happy, and I think she could be happier with someone else. She has told me that part of the reason she wants to work things out is that she fears the uncertainty of starting over. She's comfortable with me and it would be easier to just work things out than start over. So, part of her reasons for wanting to keep things going is convenience. But I really don't want her to keep believing in me when my heart's not in it. She's waiting, but God I hope she doesn't wait six years like you did. If I could see that happening, I think I WOULD consider leaving just to spare her the pain. As far as an example to the kids, all I can say is that I want to teach them that you can't just assume your marriage will function forever without proper care. If you let it go too long, this is what can happen. Thanks for your honesty.

Geez, I'm never going to finish. Just saw another post by imagine. Interesting that you brought up the marriage vows. I recently searched out and found our wedding book that contained our vows. I wanted to see if they'd help in stirring up anything inside of me. They said the customary "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part" but noticeably absent was the "forsaking all others" part. It's part of what made me think maybe polyamory IS possible. I don't strongly believe that, but it does make me wonder. Example to the kids at this point is really an example of what NOT to do. Lessons learned, just like I said above, don't assume marriages can withstand pressures of daily living unless you pay attention to them. My wife and I didn't. And a repeat relationship/marriage? Are you kidding? I know my wife would want that, but not me, not for a long time, if ever. I like companionship, don't get me wrong, but I'm very comfortable living on my own, and I think it would take me a long time to get over the emotional baggage I've been living with for so long. If it weren't for the kids, leaving the marriage would be so tempting right now if it hadn't happened already. Positive aspects? We raised decent kids - they've avoided drugs, alchohol, no car accidents, doing well in school, have nice friends. First and foremost I thank her for being a great mom. We also had a lot of good times when we were much younger, and I thank her for that too. We share household duties, and I thank her for the work she's done for me.

You know, I just happened to think, maybe posting to this forum is meeting an emotional need for communication that should be met by my wife. Did you guys ever think of that? Someone asked me a time or two why I was posting here and what did I want? Maybe that's why. Maybe it's satisfying a need I have to express my feelings. Another thought I just had is that maybe I'm here because I AM in a stage of indifference but feeling guilty about it and I want to see if anyone else has been there and climbed out of it. Anyone? I'm not really looking for responders who haven't been there but just want to preach the Harley mantra or who think I'm a bad person and just want to get angry at me. Lousygolfer's the only one I've seen on here so far who may have been in my situation, but I wonder if he had reached the stage of indifference and remained in it for a while after the affair was revealed.

brwmb,

I've walked in your shoes, too.

My question is this...

In your marriage, both of you having EA's...do you think making choices from your feelings (or non-feelings) is really working for you?

What if...you were to act from your beliefs (not DJs) and the feelings follow?

What if you gave your six months of NC with OW...period...nada...so you could eliminate her influence from your life and marriage for six months while you guys really focus on owning your own stuff, getting in the 20 hours of Undivided Attention (UA), playing again (reminds us we are allies even when we see each other as enemies); do verbal and non-verbal communication exercises twice a week (can count towards the UA time); date and discover one another and each other as who you are today...and at the end of six months, either you both agree to work another six months or go ahead and leave the marriage?

What can you really lose?

We control who influences us...we determine how wide we hold that door open...you don't need another friend in your life...no extra fantasy...not one more day of the same ol' stuff keeping you both in cycles you probably are sick of by now...

Freedom tastes like the sweetest water on earth...refresh yourself in it. Free yourself from your downward spirals...change your life...change your actions and where you action from.

You can do this.

LA

brw,

You asked for "thoughts".

Here they come.


First, I see your very very very "special" and "unique" story as extremely ho-hum and typical.

Here it is in a very short nutshell.

You and your wife have been married awhile.

You and your wife began to drift apart.

You and your wife failed to meet one another's emotional needs, and didn't put a lot of effort into doing so, even though you both recognized the fact that you weren't!

Your wife had a brief EA, or at least was on the verge of one, or you think she might have been, or something like that.

You and she never even addressed the issues that led up to the problem that was GLARING YOU IN THE FACE at that point in time.

You both went about, ho-hum, and hoped the problems would just "go away", only your RESENTMENT about the EA (or whatever it might have been) led you to decide that you were somehow justified in now having your own little affair.

Throw in some porn as a sideshow. You are paying a wh0re, online, and you have somehow become emotionally attached to her. And you have convinced yourself in the process that your wife is somehow the bad guy, because she doesn't somehow meet your sexual attractiveness needs.

There isn't anything really special here, to tell you the truth.



Your justifications don't hold water.


The fact that your wife suddenly became somehow sexually unattractive to you around the time that you became suspicious of an EA on her part is not a big surprise. You two never dealt appropriately with what you thought was her EA - and the result? YOUR RESENTMENT, AND THE FALLOUT, WHICH IS NOW YOUR AFFAIR.

Could have predicted that.

So I say, "typical".

You never took the steps to protect your marriage.

You still can, you know.



Start now.

See, you are in a state where you sincerely believe that your OW has nothing to do with your feelings. You. Are. Wrong.


Stop all contact with her, for about two months. Meanwhile, implement a plan where YOU go about meeting all of your WIFE'S emotional needs, for the same two months. Spend a minimum of 15 hours per week with your wife in pleasurable experiences, like recreation, going out on dates, having fun times together - just the two of you.


Then, see what you say about "not having any feelings for her".

Take the challenge.

What do you have to lose? After all, you are the one who said you don't want a divorce. A couple of months of investment (instead of paying that OW for companionship) in YOUR WIFE, and you might just find out that you DO have someone who lives right there with you.

Only you HAVE to put your heart into this investment. Make this a real investment, as though your future depends on it. Those kids you mention? They are counting on it.


SB

BRWMB,

I've been deeply hurt by betrayal. It affects me nearly every waking moment. In light of that, I am willing to put myself 'out there' to try and help you.

Please don't disappoint me.

I've noticed your posts are very lengthly. I'm taking this as a good sign as a troll does not have such patience.

Can you answer these two questions?

1- Do you love your wife?
2- Do you respect your own self worth?

If this is true, I'm sure the reverse is true also. Thus it would hurt neither you nor your OW to cut contact, and would begin to ease your wife's torment.

Sounds win/win to me.



(Not to imply for a moment that I think that an OW's feelings should have any bearing on the decision for No Contact. Been through having my feelings take second place to a wh*re, and refuse to ever go there again, not that it is likely the way my DH now adores me.)

I wanted to add,

I think it is very short-sighted to leave because you don't like what you hear.

I'm old.

I think that one of the things I have learned over the years I have lived on the Earth is that when I don't like what someone has told me about myself is that it is usually because it has hit too close to home.


When I find that I am resisting someone strongly, I have found that I need to sit back, take a breath, and figure out what truth they are speaking that I need to take into myself.

Because what I am resisting is often the truth I need most of all.

Just for the record.

Regarding your indifference:

My statement that your wife defines what is an appropriate level of contact with members of the opposite sex wasn't meant to argue some POJA thing. It simply is.

Just like you weren't happy with her contact with OM she had years ago. She should have respected your objection.

Now you need to respect hers.

POJA isn't: We should both agree it's inappropriate and therefore I'll end it when we do.

POJA is: I want this. Wife strongly disagrees. If I continue this it will hurt her and hurt my marriage. I will stop this behavior since it isn't worth the hurt it is causing my marriage.

2x4s are the only thing that break through a wayward fog. You're upset because you're not being greeted with "Oh, gee, I see how you feel and why you feel this way. Yes, you should continue this contact with the other woman despite the fact that it deeply hurts your wife."

We're here telling you you certainly CAN do it, but you must end your contact with OW to move forward.

We're telling you to fake it till you make it.

We're telling you to not stay married just for the kids but to fix your marriage for the kids. There's a difference. In one scenario nothing changes and you suffer. In the other you choose to take action and do things differently to make things better. BIG difference between the two. The motivation to stay together for the kids ins't enough. Making things better for the kids is.

You can be upset that you perceive the advice you're given as judgements.

I'll bet you a million dollars that if you follow the advice, stick to your wife's side, fake it till you make it, and come back in one year you'll read your posts and be appalled you think as you're thinking.

"You can do it" meaning what? Continue on in your adultery? Or find a way to rekindle the fire in your marriage?

We won't do the first, but there's lots of good people here to help you with the second. If that's what you really want. Doesn't sound like it though. I think that's why people keep asking you what you want. This is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.

I've been married for 30+ years and we've been through a lot together. Honestly, there are times in marriage where "the feelings just not there" on one spouse's part or the other and sometimes both spouses don't "feel" it at the same time. You can't base a good solid marriage on "feelings". You'll NEVER be satisfied. It's a CHOICE and a COMMITMENT to have a good marriage.

Unless you're willing to dig in, even if it means just using a spoon to dig at first (i.e., trying no contact with OW for at least six months is a good start) and then graduating to a MAN-sized shovel, you're wasting your time on MB.

Do what's right. You know the drill.

Again with the “my situation is special and so am I”. :RollieEyes: I thought we settled that.

I have no doubt you like your counselors “just the way they are” since they seem to support you having your cake and eating it too. Like I mentioned, lots of naval gazing and “do what feels good for you” advice.

And I never wrote or implied the Harley’s don’t customize their plans for folks. But I think what YOU mean by “customize” translates to do what I want, when I want and everyone needs to accept it and suck it up regardless of who I’m hurting and don’t tell me otherwise because after all, I’m indifferent and special. So you’re right, I don’t think Harley would support anyone in that type of plan.

Since you’ve decided this site is not your thing, why don’t you send your wife here so we can help her. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, she is experiencing a lot of pain.

Jo

Jo,

good advice!!!



BRW,


I'm not sure what kind of counselor you are going to. But the kind of counselor who subscribes to the idea that one should do whatever feels good at the time isn't doing you any good at all.

Because you did what felt good at the time of the affair.

And your wife also did what felt good at the time of her EA.

Right?


And where are you both right now???????


I would submit that you are not in a good place.


You are wondering what to do. If polyamory works. If it would do any good to try to save a marriage that seems impossibly damaged.

Gee. Wonder if doing whatever felt good helped?


Not really. It doesn't help, because feeling good doesn't lead us to where "being at peace" lies.

There is a mighty difference between the two.

And you have found that doing what makes your body feel good does not necessarily make your soul at peace.

Find the difference.


Hint: It does not have anything to do with fulfilling your selfish wants.

SB

After 6 months of finding out just how depraved he could be, my husband bought himself back a good character...even though he still had feelings for the OW. He did not do it the easy way - it was hard work.

More than three years out he does not regret dumping her now. He very much regrets what he did and who he was then. I hope you'll follow the great advice you've been given, and that someday you can look back the same way.

BRW,

People come to these boards in all emotional states. You are in withdrawal. Many are in pain and anger, and their posts reflect that anger. If you can listen *through* their pain and anger, and realize it's not directed at you but at some of your actions and what they represent to the poster, then I think you'll find the angry posts actually do have a lot of value. It's quite difficult to implement that filter so if you're not up to it it's certainly no failing on your part - you have quite a bit on your plate as it is.

Also, sometimes a poster's style of communication will just plain rub you the wrong way.

If you have trouble filtering the anger, or if some of the posters rub you the wrong way, use the ignore feature: Click on the poster's name, click "View Profile", and click "Ignore this user". Ignore is a very handy tool on a forum where tempers run high and nerves are raw.

People here are adamant about following Harley's methods because they work. People here have seen their own marriages come from wretched states of betrayal, indifference, and cruelty to sanctuaries of support, affirmation, and playfulness.

You're getting a LOT of responses. I think everyone here realizes that your marriage could be one of the really GREAT ones if you and your wife are willing to make it so.

One question: Why would every single person who has responded to you suggested that you cease contact with OW? Why has not one single person said contact would be okay if she's just a friend, or if you shared all the communications with your wife so that everything is above board and there are no secrets? Why do you think every responder is so adamant about this one issue?

Oh, one last thought - you can certainly be a weed, or choose polyamory, or superficial relationships. Many do. Here at MB we don't choose those options because we want something different out of life. Doesn't make any of us right or wrong, just different in our choices.

IF you choose marriage - a REAL marraige, one of the great ones - then I very much hope you continue posting here. Your posts are open and honest and I think an accurate portrayal of where you are now. I think you and your wife have what it takes to create one of the truly wonderful, legendary marriages. I think your story could end up being very beneficial to others.

*please forgive the following threadjack*

Turtlehead, it's so great to have you here.

I sincerely hope BRW takes all of this good advice to heart. Recovery is NOT an easy gig, but it's well worth the effort.

Lori

Thanks turtlehead for the "ignore user" option. Now if they only had one that said "ignore everyone except turtlehead" Just kidding, there ARE others who have posted useful things here, and I appreciate them.

I was thinking about the issue of contact with the other woman and why it seems to be such a flashpoint on this forum. Our counselor has told us that the affair was a SYMPTOM of problems in our marriage, not THE problem. She urged us to not focus on symptoms, but focus on the problems instead. Focusing on the symptoms will distract us from the real issues. Fixing the problems will make the symptoms go away. I think a lot of people jump to the conclusion that the affair is causing the problems, not the other way around.

I should also clarify our counselor a bit because I can see that people think she's not that good. She DOES think the quickest way to recovery is for me to stop contacting the other woman. That's right, she does believe I should stop. But what she values and encourages most of all, is honesty. Given these two scenarios:

1) I tell my wife I won't contact the other woman but I keep contacting her in secret.
2) I tell my wife that I'm still in contact with the other woman.

Our counselor prefers 2. It's better to be honest with who am I than to live a lie, and my wife and I both agree with that. Truth sometimes hurts, but truth is better than lies. Now you're probably wondering, why not scenario 3:

3) I tell my wife I won't contact the other woman and I do indeed stop contacting her.

Why not? Because I'm not convinced that I can honestly say that, and I want to be completely honest with my wife. I think this is what some people have a problem with. The fact that I can't honestly state scenario 3 makes me a bad person, an unworthy person. And yes, it has caused me pain to think that I'm not strong enough to state #3. It's what makes me think sometimes that my wife would be better off with someone else who can live up to that standard. But at least I'm not choosing scenario 1, give me credit for that. I couldn't live with myself that way, I just couldn't.

I'm sure you're now thinking "addiction." I'm positive it's not, but I'll play along with you and lets say it is an addiction. There is more than one way to cure addiction. I've known nicotine addicts who have quit cold turkey and others who have quit by gradual withdrawal. You could argue over which is better, but in my mind, it's the end result that counts. They both quit, yay for them! I once was a drug addict. I didn't quit cold turkey. As I came to an understanding that I didn't need drugs anymore, I gradually stopped using them until one day I realized that I had stopped. It happened slowly, but it happened, and I can't even remember the last time I used drugs. I think most people on this forum believe that cold turkey is the best way to quit. No actually, I think they think it's the ONLY way to quit. My counselor believes immediately ceasing contact with the other woman is the QUICKEST way to recovery, but not the only way. She knows where I am, my wife knows where I am, the cards are on the table and we're working with them. Our counselor is not saying "if you don't do it this way, I can't help you." She's working with the problems we've presented to her.

In my own case, here's what has happened. When I met the woman online, I was infatuated with her. For the first month or so, I thought about her a lot, and I contacted her almost daily. Once I told my wife about her and we got over the initial pain of that and started counseling, I've had multiple outlets for communication, and I've seen my interest in the other woman wane. I'm thinking about her less and less, and contacting her less and less. I think, as Harley wrote in one of his descriptions of affairs, it'll just fizzle out because maintaining it won't be worth the effort. I can see that happening. My wife understands where I'm at and she's being patient with me and I'm being honest with her.

I'm sure many here will complain about that approach, and all I can say is there's more than one way to build a marriage. Speaking of which, our counselor has told us to not even think about re-building our marriage. Our marriage as we once knew it is over. We won't be RE-building our marriage, we'll be creating a new one. Since we're in a state of invisible divorce, the first thing we have to do is decide if we want to re-marry each other. And then, if we do, we'll have to re-define our new marriage. It's not going to look like our previous marriage, it will be something new. In your garden analogy, we will be ripping things out, tilling up the soil, and replanting new seeds. The reason I like that approach is that it helps me out of indifference. I think a big reason for me being indifferent is my feeling that if we try to rebuild our marriage, it'll look a lot like our old one; it'll end up with the same problems we originally had. But the thought of creating a new marriage, now that excites me! That's something that I can roll up my sleeves with and get to work on.

One of Harley's principles, the total honesty principle, is fundamental. I think whatever kind of new marriage my wife and I build, it will have to include total honesty.

The joint agreement principle is not so absolute. I think there's going to have to be some give and take. My wife and I were just talking about this last night. Yesterday, I went to a lunch meeting where I met my former office friend, the woman I've mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a wonderful, non-physical friendship with. After the meeting, we talked for a few minutes, catching up on each other's lives, but I left feeling guilty, .... guilty that I had spoken with someone that my wife prefers I don't contact. It feels so controlling that she can make me feel guilty about doing something like talking with a friend. As I pointed out in my first post, the situation was reversed several years when it was **I** who made her feel bad about talking with her male friend. We talked about this last night, and this is something we both have to work out. There just has to be a way to have opposite-sex friendships outside of the marriage without creating feelings of guilt and mistrust. I don't know yet how we'll work that out, but it'll have to be part of the new marriage we create. I'm sure some here will say that emotional needs have to be met exclusively within the marriage, but I think that's one of those customizable things. I'm not trying to argue against those who feel 100% within the marriage, I'm just saying I'm different.

Am I the same guy my wife married 26 years ago? No. Is she the same? No. It makes sense that our new marriage won't be the same either. Do we want to stay married? Yes, but right now the reasons aren't very good -- kids, and it takes a lot of effort to divorce and start over. Now we just have to figure out what our new marriage will look like. If we can define one that we both like, great. If not, then we have a tough decision because of the kids.

here is the answer to question in your title

yes you should be sorry that you can so easily hurt and put at great risk your wife and children....

yes you should be sorry that you may have engaged in activities that lead to splitting the home and children and having them split holidays between two homes and visit their parents
and change their perception on committment and security

yes you should be sorry that you put your wife at risk for life threatening diseases.....

the answer is yes.....
and the fact that you don't
should scare you
and
should motivate you to work seriously on YOU...to figure out why you can not and will not be empathetic to others...

but you aren't convinced you should be sorry....


then you get your feathers ruffled...

saying this site is to much in to marriage......

the reality of this site is as you noted..
it is about marriage rebuilding
as logical as AA is about abstinence
though I am sure they get their share of those convinced that they can still drink and not be an alcoholic


as you can come here to convince that your affair really isn't an affair....

(note this has nothing to do with the theory of affairs as addiction) that is a theory

not every marriage
not all marriages
not everyone that comes here is shoved in to a mold...

but to the new ones...with a somewhat steady foundation somewhere in their past...like yours....

yep...the answer is give this a try..no garuntees..just a try...
based on the works of a man and his counseling center who have dealt with thousands of affairs....and developed a 'game plan'so to speak.....

though thou does protest that your's is so "different"

nothing new under this old sun

but you are here..so naturally the advice is try this or that..

oh but you don't feel like trying...so we should not suggest that....

OK...

and then the icing on the proverbial cake under the title...

I don't feel sorry....

is what about YOUR feelings
your confusion
your hurt...

wha wha wha WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where is our compassion
where is our understanding
of your pain....

under the title that brings pain to your spouse and others here...

bring something to the table to work with...
besides what you have brought so far.....

instead of playing the same old tired card you have...

victim once again to others

and now victim to 'mean' response from koolaide drinking zombies.....(that's a visual for my friend pep...)

ark

BRW: If I read this correctly, the bottom line is that, for now at least, you want to keep your girlfriend AND your wife. Right? And you believe you deserve kudos because you're being honest about it. Right?

Sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. It sounds selfish and self-serving, IMO. Shows no concern whatsoever for your wife or your relationship with her. To say that you're doing her a favor by being honest is like putting a gown on a pig...it may have a pretty dress on, but it's still a pig.

It is possible to simply STOP having contact with someone. You just choose not to do so because the feelings you get from your girlfriend are more important to you than recovering your marriage.

You absolutely can have a good marriage, BRW. I believe that my sitch is proof of that. I sincerely wish you would consider the advice these knowledgeable people have been giving you, sir, and give your marriage a REAL chance.

My suggestion would be to find a qualified counselor because it is very clear your "counselor" has not a CLUE how to save marriages, much less understand the dynamics of adultery. She is an idiot. Her silly comment that you should not focus on the affair is like saying you shouldn't focus on the fact that the TITANTIC is sinking and instead focus on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom.

The adultery is the most harmful, damaging thing in your marriage right now, and until your affair ends recovery will be impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. Most counselors will not even bother counseling a couple when there is an ongoing affair and/or persistent DECEIT because it is useless. It is insane to presume that a marriage can be recovered when there is deceit and fraud being committed.

You should also know that marriage counseling has the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines, at 84% failure. And your "MC" demonstrates WHY. MC are usually nothing more than divorce facilitators and have a higher rate of divorce than the general population.

My suggestion would be to lose the unqualified counselor if you want to save your marriage. You are getting ripped off at the expense of your marriage.



No, it is not better to be "honest" about destructive behavior. Its better to STOP the destructive behavior. Being "honest" about destructive behavior does not make bad behavior good. That is irrational. Nothing short of ending your affair will make recovery possible.

To believe otherwise is to be deluded into thinking that an alcoholic can sober up while still drinking. Ain't going to happen. An alcoholic can NEVER recover until he stops drinking.

Your marriage will NEVER RECOVER until you end all contact with the OW. Period.

You are getting very BAD ADVICE from an unqualified fool who is just taking your money when she knows recovery is impossible under these conditions.

Why dont we all spend hours trying to convince this man he should be feeling bad for cheating on his wife....

The problem is if a person does not care or is psychopathic or some other reason, or is happy with the status quo, there is no convincing them of anything.

The real question is:

Why is this man on a marriage board?

What does he want from us in the way of responses?

(It think this man wants to get some drama going for his own personal pleasure starting with the title of his thread)

No, it is not better to be "honest" about destructive behavior. Its better to STOP the destructive behavior. Being "honest" about destructive behavior does not make bad behavior good. That is irrational. Nothing short of ending your affair will make recovery possible.


bravo...melody...

I have to say I was cringing every time the words
"I am being honest with my
feelings
thoughts"
etc....
came up

followed by (even though they hurt my wife...what the heck is a little more pain piled on...eh?)

Is such sanctimonious crap on some levels....

why would a counselor expect honesty from someone whose whole last years/months were lived in dishonesty
how can a counselor expect someone to be honest when they don't value/understand honesty....

some of the honesty is just more same old same old

rationalization.....

that one just can not accept on blind faith on being worth that much

suddenly one is hit with the honesty lightning bolt...
and from then on

every word preceded with I am being honest here...is true...

and written in stone...
feelings are fleeting....

that one honestly feels not in love today...is not the end all and be all to feeling IN love tomorrow....

ARK

If a human being has NO EMOTIONS< how can you convince them to FEEL anything?

My thoughts Stella.

I think brwmb is interested and genuine about wanting to fix his marriage. And I also believe he still loves his wife dearly.

But whether consciously or not, he is still very hurt and resentful about his wife's EA. His repeated emphasis regarding his lack of remorse and unwillingness to end contact with the OW(s) isn't so much for us as it is for his wife's benefit, since she IS reading here.

Its his way of exacting revenge, payback.

Sad part is, he really could rebuild his marriage were it not for his resentment.

Jo

You enjoy playing with fire.

Yes, there is a simple way to have friends of the opposite sex while you're married: You both meet with them and you're never alone with them one on one. The opposite sex friends are your mutual friends.

Why? Because your interaction with this "attractive" woman you enjoy spending time with is inappropriate.

There is no such thing as harmless flirting.

You have to understand that affairs are never, "Hey, you're hot and I'm married. I know I just met you, but let's go screw!"

Affairs are slow simmers that turn into big boils. They build up.

So that is why having one on one contact with friends of the opposite sex is wrong.

Your wife was likely having an emotional affair with her friend from years ago.

You had an emotional affair.

You are at risk of having, at a time when your marriage is on the rocks, an affair with your "attractive" co-worker that you've known for a long time.

You're vulnerable to it.

I heard the same thing about the affair being a symptom, not the problem. I agree. The affair is a symptom is the problem of not following the Policy of Joint Agreement. Rather than find what works for both, you find what works for one only -- and you justify that choice because the other person is being "controlling" or "uncaring" or "crazy" or...or...or.

Cherished

The sinking Titantic might be a SYMPTOM of faulty design, but do we sit around and pontificate about engineering theory while the ship is sinking or do we stop the ship from sinking and THEN talk about correcting the design problem?

Just wondering what a typical 5 year old would choose.

Heart attacks are symptomatic of many life-style related diseases.

When someone is in coronary arrest, do we pull out the diet and exercise pamphlets and educate them on how to have a healthier life, or do we do CPR???

Until the most urgent "symptom" is dealt with, it is of no use whatsoever to delve into the root causes.

Interesting. Your wife “MAKES” you feel guilty.

Aside from your statement above which places blame on your wife for YOUR feelings brwmb, it also implies she has complete and utter power over your feelings. WOW! You’d think with such power she would have MADE you feel nothing but disdain and contempt for all other women.

Why do you think you need to blame your wife for YOUR feelings of guilt?

Jo

Excellent analogy!

For such an "honest guy", someone's having a hard time owning their own crap!

well,well,well,

I will chime in. It seems our poster has a lot of resentment from his fww's EA. Which means he is playing tit for tat. He feels justified because his W did not respect him and would not stop communicating with her EA partner.

Now he feels justified in keeping in contact with HIS EA, because he is JUSTIFIED.

Well, I learned awhile ago that two wrongs do not make a right. And I do believe that the immediate issues need to be dealt with before any recovery can be made.

Wife had an EA, Husband is having the same. That does not make it okay.

The poster that started this thread is obviously still hurt and resentful over his wife's EA. And now it is payback time, and he is NOT remorseful. Until he sees this, and the root of this, nothing any of us say to him will help.

I do not see revenge as being 'sweet' in this case. What a mess!

How is that working for you buddy? :RollieEyes:

You and your wife have a lot of stuff to deal with. Good luck and God Bless.

Love in Christ,
Miss M :RollieEyes:

No kidding. Not only is it his wife's fault for him having an affair (she encouraged him to look at Porn to improve their sex life and he took it to a whole diff level), but now she is also to blame for his feelings of guilt when he cheats.

Gawd, what is wrong with that woman. How dare SHE BE HONEST about her hurt when he is being HONEST about his cheating. It just makes him feel so guilty and its HER fault. :RollieEyes:

Hi ark^^, the question in the title is sort of rhetorical. Of course I should be sorry. The real struggle I'm having is that I'm not and I'm trying to understand why. In the withdrawal state of mind, I've reached the point of not caring anymore, so I guess that's why. Maybe there aren't that many people that have reached the kind of withdrawal I have. Maybe that's why they're having a hard time with me.

Sorry to not respond to much more of your post. It's hard to read. Choppy, sort of like poetry, but not really. Hard for me to figure out exactly what you're trying to say.

Hi Resilient, you're right about the resentments. They are getting in the way. My wife and I are aware of this and are working on it. It's not conscious payback; it might be unconscious, but it's not the vengeful kind of payback. She is NOT reading this, at least not yet to my knowledge.

Are you in withdrawal? It was my understanding you are still in touch with the OW? Is that not correct?

Hi Melody, I can see how you'd think of the analogy about the Titanic, but it doesn't go far enough. The Titanic is not sinking, it has already sunk. The ship is lying at the bottom of the ocean. It's dead. We're back at the shipyard where we're talking about correcting the design problems.

Hi Neak, just like my post to MelodyLane, CPR is not necessary. Cardiac arrest happened a long time ago. The patient is dead. We're in the morgue now doing an autopsy, learning what we can.

Hi Resilient, yes she does make me feel guilty. It doesn't seem to matter whether I'm reading a book, working out, talking with my daughter, pretty much anything I do is not right. No, I take that back, in the last month or two of counseling, she HAS tried very hard to avoid making me feel like I'm walking on egg shells. I've noticed that. But there's a long history of it in our past, and I still do feel guilty about doing a lot of things. Hopefully that'll settle down.

Hi Miss M, I'm wondering about your "Love in Christ" signature. The tone in your post, did it feel like Christ's love when you wrote that? Reminds me of the story of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. I feel like the adulterous woman surrounded by self righteous people ready to stone me. (And turtlehead feels like Jesus - firm, but loving, it's very refreshing.) It feels like there are a lot of sharks swimming around here just waiting for prey to gobble up. The tone on this website is surprisingly hostile and sarcastic. Unfortunate. There ARE some concerned people who post here, but like turtlehead said, it can be awfully difficult to filter out the insincerity. The religiosity of many of the people here is oppressive.

Oh no, it is not dead until you are divorced. You are not divorced. There is no point discussing "design" while the ship is sinking. Recovery is impossible until the affair ends. That is like expecting a FALLING DOWN DRUNK to work the 12 Steps of AA. Impossible.

Be assured that the first step has to be the end of the affair.

I think that truth comes across like that when we are in a state of denial and delusion. Anyone who speaks TRUTH to us or sees through our crap is going to be viewed as "hostile" and scary. They are a threat to our foggy thinking!

But that is a result of our own fog, not them. They are very threatening to your own DELUSION since they don't buy your bullcrap.

And that is the problem with this forum, I have found. Bullcrap has a very short shelf life here and the forum has a clear deficit of affair enablers. It seems like they have been hogged up by the other websites. :eek:

Between you and I this would not be a good place to get support for your affair. They really suck when it comes to affair support. :eek:

YO Mel. Dyslexic much?

engineers! :RollieEyes:

That's "Miss" Engineer to you, Chicka.

not stoning you at all.

Who am I to judge?

Just wondering if you ever forgave your wife for her continued contact with her EA when you asked her please not to do that anymore.

I realized, as a Christian, that it didn't matter what my H had done to me, it was how I treated him and how I reacted that was wrong. No doubt about it. Therein lies my reasoning for my post.

do you feel justified? I know I felt that way, and it did NOT work.
I was actually empathizing with you. I am sorry if you took it wrong.

I felt that no one else was picking up on your history with your wife's previous EA(except Resilient ) . Sorry for the confusion. I do understand where you are at.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Reading through this thread, a number of things strike me about brwmb.

There's a pervading attitude of indifference and emotional lethargy, despite life events that would normally arouse intense emotions of anger, fear, jealousy, shame or guilt.

There's an acknowledgement that some of his behaviours may be damaging to the marriage, but an adamant refusal to change those behaviours.

There's a great deal of rationalisation of that lack of emotional reaction.

I'm seeing someone whose automatic, probably unconscious response to anything that would produce intense emotion, is to move quickly towards a distanced, uninvolved position that keeps him safely clear of the uncomfortable feelings.

I'm also seeing someone who has used this strategy to get past the feelings of intense anger, fear and jealousy that past events in the marriage would have generated, had he allowed the feelings in. In other words, it's a defence. It works, but with a long-term cost.

I think the reason you're here, brmwb, is that you recognise - at some level - that this emotional suppression has prevaded many aspects of your life, leaving you pretty numb. Consciously, you may feel that you're balanced and healthy, but your lack of conscience about something that should have a healthy conscience screaming with pain, tells you something about that numbness.

I suspect you sense - if only subliminally - that you're likely to take that emotional deadness with you into whichever relationship you get into after this one. I don't think this is about a toxic relationship, it's about a toxic defence. It's just much easier to blame the current relationship, the current wife, the current mess, than to drop a defence that's 'worked' for a long time. Defences are very, very hard to let go of. The ego had a zillion ways to hold on to them.

You have children. Do you care about them enough to face up to some very painful insights into yourself? I believe that's what it's going to take.





TA

Not withdrawal from OW.
A state of withdrawal as in: intimacy, conflict, withdrawal.

I thought about the post this quote was taken from, and especially scenarios 1, 2, and 3 quite a bit over the weekend. If you were choosing scenario 1 (talk to OW and lie to your BW about contact) then you *would* be stoned in these forums and I and many others wouldn't have responded more than once, if at all. I think the fact that you can't find it within you to choose option 1 is one of the things that makes me think you and your BW could have a fantastic marriage. You (both) just need to learn some tools and behaviors. I think the love and basic integrity are there. I think you've lost your ways.

And the fact that you can't honestly go with scenario 3 doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you a normal, flawed human, with room for improvement. Just like every single person on the planet.

I see brwmb's reality thusly:
I would like to have a spectacular, legendary M with my BW.
I understand that there is no room for a third party in a *real* M.
I know I need to give up OW and I'm working on that goal, but I'm not ready to go "cold turkey". I've reduced the quantity of contact greatly, and the content is now empty and humdrum. I'm getting there. In fact, having reduced contact with OW to this quantity and quality, I'm not real clear on why everyone still harps so much on me about ceasing contact altogether.

I see brw's BW's reality thusly:
I am dying the death of a thousand cuts. He says he hardly talks to her but every time he's on the computer I wonder if he's chatting or emailing with her. Whenever he's away from me and has his cellphone with him, I wonder if they're talking. I wonder what they really say. I second guess myself constantly. Am I not smart enough? Not pretty enough? Too fat? Too thin? Should I keep the house cleaner? Do I spend too much time cleaning house at the expense of "playtime" with my WH? Is it my breath, does it stink?

I submit for your consideration a third reality:
Mr. and Mrs. brwmb put the protection and nurturing of their M above everything else.
They realize how precious a truly great marriage is, and they value their happy marriage beyond measure.
They recognize how fragile a marriage can be if not properly tended.
Neither of them would consider having an opposite sex friend that is not also a friend of their spouse. They would never spend time alone with an opposite gender person, no matter how platonic, because to do so could invite temptation, or rumor. Either of those could be potentially hurtful to their spouse, so they simply do not go there.

There is a lot more to that third reality, obviously, but that's the most critical bit as I see things now.

How do you get to the third reality?
You give up OW. To keep her, and to wean yourself from her, does more damage to your M than anyone could ever possibly explain to you. You may wake up in a few months and think "Wow, I haven't talked to OW in over a month, and I didn't even realize it! I think I'm finally over her!" but by then your BW will be too filled with hurt and too drained to invest in the M. You will have lost everything.

I'm not exaggerating; I went through this in my own M and we almost lost it all. Neither of us were sure we even WANTED the M, but we figured we'd give it a go. He's now my best buddy, confidant, and playmate. I respect and admire him, and I trust him like no other.

I know that giving up OW is going to be really hard, and I respect your ability to recognize that fact and be honest about it. I suggest the following course of action ASAP while your BW still has some interest in your M:

1. You write a NC email to OW and let your BW read it; you incorporate any suggestions she has that you and she can both enthusiastically agree on, and you let her press "send"
2. You turn to your wife to help you through this separation from OW. You do this in multiple ways:
- put a rule on your email that automatically deletes any messages from her.
- delete any secret email or chat accounts
- share all your passwords with your wife
- allow your wife to install a key logger on the computer
- give your wife your cellphone and you get another one with a different number.
- you ensure your new cellphone account can be monitored freely by your wife (records are online, for example)

Many people see these types of actions as allowing their wife to invade their privacy, or letting their wife "police" them. But your wife is NOT out to get you! Her prime objective, like yours, is care and nurturing of your marriage. She'll pass on any messages from folks that call your old cell number. She'll be an accountability partner and help you adjust to the loss of OW and to the formation of appropriate boundaries in opposite gender friendships. She's not there to judge you or to punish you - if that were her objective, she'd have split by now. She's there to understand and support you. She's got your six.

Hi turtlehead, you are amazing, really. Are you a professional psychologist, or a marriage counselor? If not, you absolutely should be. Textual communication is not always easy. You can't see my facial expressions, body language, hand gestures, you can't hear vocal intonations, and yet you seem to be able to cut right to the heart of the matter. I really appreciate the time you take to think about this problem. I'm sure it's frustrating for someone like you to deal with someone like me; like trying to grab a fistful of sand or water, nothing firm to leverage against. I hope there are others who are maybe wrestling with similar problems who are reading this and possibly getting something out of it.

Your assessments of our realities are pretty close. Your 2nd and 3rd statements regarding the way you see MY reality are right on -- no room for a 3rd party, and why the fuss over no contact. Your 1st statement, that I would like a great marriage, is true, but I would add that I feel it's almost hopeless to achieve. As far as my wife's reality, I think she initially felt the hurt and mistrust and questions of self-esteem you wrote about, but recently she has come to realize that it's not about her, that I'm the one who has to decide what I want, and that she's better off just working on herself. She's being patient with me but has said that she can't guarantee her patience will last forever; she has not placed any kind of timetable on things.

Your description of the third reality is where things get difficult. It's hard to know if we're just lazy people by nature, if we don't value our marriage as much as we should, or what. This is our 4th time in counseling in the last 12-13 years, and everytime, what happens is that the counselors give us things to do to get us to spend more time together and figure out how we can interact better, .... and we never do them. We feel better immediately after going to counseling sessions and learning about why things are the way they are, but then we get home and go back to our busy lives and never do anything. We read His Needs, Her Needs, took the emotional needs questionnaire, said "that's really good to know," and then nothing. Same with the Five Love Languages book. Same with other marriage books. I can feel the same thing happening with our current counseling. We don't place a high enough priority on our marriage to work on it. We're both guilty of this. It's like we want a good marriage, but we don't want to work hard for it. We're either lazy, or we don't care enough, or maybe we've just been deluding ourselves that a good marriage shouldn't require much work. I don't really know why, but it's a pattern I've seen in us for years. Your comment about your own marriage, that neither of you were sure you even wanted the marriage, that's true of us at times. It's almost like neither of us wants to be the first to leave, but we'd both be relieved if the other left. Right now, it's really the thought of the alternatives that are preventing us from taking any action to end it. We're too lazy to work on it and too lazy to end it. Pretty apathetic, I know, but that's kind of where we are.

The part of your post about ending contact with the other woman. First of all, I have no problem doing ALL of what you wrote. I could do all of that, and it still wouldn't guarantee no contact. With the way things are in this world, there's always a way, and my wife knows and has said exactly that. And even if I did stop contacting the other woman, there's still a couple billion more women on the planet. Should I write a NC letter to all of them? If it's not THIS other woman, it could be another, and another, and so on. I haven't filled you in on all of the details of my married life, but I have violated trust with my wife many times. I've been through situations involving drugs, porn, etc., and I've learned that I'm a repeat trust-offender. If you flip a penny 100 times and it comes up heads everytime, what do you think's going to happen on the 101st time? I've pretty much given up hope that I can earn her trust back. It's part of the reason I've reached the state of indifference that I'm in. Eventually, you realize the penny has two heads and it doesn't matter anymore.

Why does my wife keep hanging around? Why doesn't she leave me? I think in the beginning because she had hopes that I would change. I had hopes too that I would change. Now, I think she realizes she'll never be able to fully trust me. (John Edwards didn't help.) I wouldn't trust me either if I were her. I think she doesn't want to leave me now because, ... the #1 reason is she doesn't want to start over and possibly grow old alone, and #2, the kids.

Sometimes I feel like I'm doing her a disservice by not leaving HER. I sometimes think I should just put us both through the discomfort of a divorce, get past this apathetic relationship we have, and hope for the best. She's an attractive woman, has a good paying job, and I have no doubt she could find a man who would give her the kind of relationship she deserves. My reasons for not doing so are, ... #1 the kids, and #2, it would hurt her in the short term, and might not help in the long term.

So here we sit, in stalemate. Our counselor, who is very pro-marriage, especially in the case where kids are involved, has helped some couples avoid divorce by helping them work out the details of a parallel marriage; once they come to terms with that and understand what it means, they can be relatively happy. The marriage won't be the truly great marriage they had hoped for, but at least they come to a workable agreement about how to live out the rest of their lives without traumatizing each other, ... for the sake of the kids. Maybe that's what'll happen to us. It's not a very attractive option, but maybe it's the best considering we're not very motivated to change things one way or another.

Over the weekend, I decided to read some other threads on this forum, something which I hadn't done before. I'm thinking that I put the wrong title on this thread, because I really DO think it is not about the affair, but about the apathy that exists in our marriage. The affair is just one of many symptoms of our apathy. End the affair, and the apathy still exists. End the affair, and something else will come up to replace it. "End the affair," those words sound so unlike what I'm going through compared to the other posts I read over the weekend. It isn't an affair anymore. The other threads I read involve a spouse actually leaving home for another person and the other spouse trying to get them back. The wandering spouse felt angry when the affair was exposed; they tried to deny it, and cover it up. The affair seems so central to the thought processes of both spouses. The advice given by the experts on this forum seems designed to shock the wandering spouse back to reality, to make the affair a truly costly and uncomfortable experience. I couldn't help but think that if my wife received that kind of advice and tried it, it wouldn't have the shock factor for me. I feel like I'm past the point of shockability. I even tried to imagine my wife having an affair; what would I do? I think I'd just say "fine, whatever." Shrug my shoulders and say, "ok, where do we go from here?" I don't think I'd be all that upset. I'd be surprised, yes, but I don't think I'd be that hurt, and I'm almost positive I wouldn't be angry. I'm sure some may say that's part of the "fog" I'm in, but I've examined myself, and I truly believe that. And after what I'VE done, even if I DID think I'd be upset, I'd have no right to, really.

I also thought over the weekend about the topic question, "why am I not that sorry about the affair?" I AM sorry for the pain it has caused my wife (and me too, but since I did it, I can't feel too sorry for myself), but I'm not sorry about it from the point of view of doing something intrinsically wrong. I've struggled with that for a long time, wondering how could I not think it was wrong? I mean, c'mon, who am I kidding? Adultery IS wrong! Even though mine was not physical and only via the internet, it was wrong. Why don't I feel that it was wrong? Is my conscience that bad? I think it has something to do with the invisible divorce we've been in that I described earlier in this thread. From a legalistic point of view, we ARE still married because there's a piece of paper on file somewhere. But from a practical point of view, we are divorced. We've drifted so far apart that we're just two friends who happen to live under the same roof. That's what an invisible divorce is. In a state of divorce, having relationships with other women isn't an affair, and maybe that's why I don't feel sorry about it. I don't have definite conclusions about that though. It could be just an attempt to rationalize my behavior; it could be, I really don't know. I know some people think not feeling sorry indicates I'm a heartless, uncaring person, but I really DO care about my wife. I don't want to hurt her, and I want her to be happy. It's just that I'm becoming more and more convinced that I'm not the person that can do that for her.

I guess what I'm wondering now is, what have people done in the situation where their marriage seems dead, the many half-hearted attempts to improve the marriage in the past haven't had results, the will to work hard is gone, the prospects of divorce aren't that attractive, and it looks like a parallel marriage is the best available option. Do you just resign yourself to that? Is there some way out of the apathy? Is it better to swallow the bitter pill of divorce and try to move on?

I'm sure many here will insist that the first step to a better marriage is the no contact. I think there has to be a step that occurs before that. Like Peggy Vaughan quotes George Carlin in her book Making Love Stay, "ya gotta wanna." I gotta wanna better marriage, and in the last few years I haven't wanted it badly enough to do anything about it. In fact, in the last few years, I haven't wanted it at all; I've been invisibly divorced. It's only because of the recent events that I'm even thinking about all of this, thinking of resurrecting our marriage.

Geez, I've re-read this several times before posting, and every time I think of something else. Somewhere, in a list of reasons that people have affairs, I read one reason is they want a divorce but they don't want to be the ones to initiate it. They want to give their partner a reason to divorce so that they don't feel bad about initiating it. I wonder if THAT's the real reason I feel the no contact issue is no big deal. That if I stay in contact with the other woman, even though I don't fantasize about a long term relationship with her, my wife will eventually give up and leave me. Do you think that's possible? I hope not -- that sounds cowardly to me. God, I hope that's not what's going on inside me. If I knew that, I would want my wife to know right away.............
.......Mmmm, that thought gets scarier the more I think of it. This invisible divorce thing, maybe I'm just looking for a way to make it official, an easy way out. I've already described being lazy about relationships; maybe this is a way for me to do nothing and make something happen. Any thoughts about that?

Of course you have control over your own actions. You can guarantee anything. You can stop contacting the OW and you can stop having inappropriate relationships with other women in the future. [if not, you should probably be institutionalized in a mental institution]

But I do agree with you that the affair is not the main problem. Of course it has to be stopped in order to ever effect recovery. But it sounds like that your cheating is more of a character issue than an aberration of character. This IS your character as you indicated above you have terrible boundaries and are vulnerable to other women. That CAN be resolved, though, with hard work.

Does your wife accept that you are a committed cheater and abuser who has no intention of ending his affair? Does she have acceptance on that issue and will she agree to stay married to you?

I ask because adultery is as traumatic psychogically as rape or the death of a child. Women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from this. Once mentally healthy people commit suicide over this sort of abuse.


Actually, she is not better off "working on herself." She is better off PROTECTING HERSELF from this emotional abuse. If you have misled her into believing this nonsense, then you have done this woman a serious injustice and have compounded your crime. Your wife would be better off if you left than if you stayed and pursued your adultery right under her nose. Her having a nervous breakdown would not be in her best interest or your childrens best interest.

How about sending her here so we can help her protect herself from your abuse?

Also brwn, your endless rationalizations are not even interesting or compelling. We have heard it all before from every other falling down drunk [WS] who stumbles in here. Fog is not unique to folks here.

My main concern is your victim, your wife. I would be most appreciative if you would do something productive and send your wife here. Thanks..

Well I know this one. And the answer is "yes" you are rationalizing and justifying your behavior so you won't feel guilty about something that is WITHOUT QUESTION wrong. You're hurting someone you once loved. The mother of your children, your life's partner.

The term "invisible divorce" and "dead marriage" are VERY common and typical terms used by active WSes here. We've heard it a million times. There is no specialness about cheating, regardless of who it is.

Being married is like being pregnant, brwmb. You either are, or you aren't. You, my friend, are STILL married until you're divorced.

The resentment you're carrying from your wife's EA is eating your marriage alive. IMHO, if you deal with that poison first you may be able to start seeing things more clearly.

I wish you peace and much needed clarity.
Jo

Asked and answered.

If you have NC with OP nd withdraw from her, it makes it possible for you to re-attach to your wife.

NC means you will wanna again.

brwmd --

Your post has intrigued me, and I've finally figured out why. You have a similar attitude to my husband who was willing, at least once, to talk to Dr. Harley and told him the same thing he told me: "I'm not sure our marriage is worth my effort."

The faulty assumption you seem to be making is that your wife can keep this up. Some women will stick with their marriage no matter how badly their husband treats them. They will fall apart, though, sooner or later. If you are honest with your wife about how little you care about her and are open about continued contact with someone who is an OW in her eyes, what will it do to her?

Think about it. Sooner or later, she may break down. She may not have a nervous breakdown, as I nearly did on D-day. She may not gain weight, as I did -- nearly 60 pounds. She may not lose her job, as I did. She may still keep her children safe, although I left two children at a grocery store once and one child at a park once.

I think there is a difference between men and women here. Men can live in a marriage of indifference. For women, it is dreadful, and the impact on them will be evident. Look up books on Sonya and Leo Tolstoy. Dreadful. Leo Tolstoy, perhaps the greatest novelist of all time. Do you know how he died? He got so sick of his wife that he got up before dawn one morning and left the house, taking a train to see his sister. When his wife followed, he escaped. He got on another train, caught pneumonia, and was taken off the train to be put in the house of a trainmaster. His wife followed him there, and she was not allowed in the trainstation until he was unconscious. There is a picture of her outside the trainstation peering in the window. How poignant. The trainstation is now called "Leo Tolstoy Station" in honor of the great man who died in an out of the way trainstation with papers like The New York Times reporting on the bizarre ending to a great man. He brought this on himself, by disregarding his wife and his wife acting in an increasingly erratic way.

Your wife may stay married to you despite how indifferently you treat her, but you are making an assumption that she can continue as she is today with how you treat her today. I doubt it. It will destroy her.

Someday, you may get back on this forum and read this post again, and see it with regret. There are women who commit suicide, there are women who have nervous breakdowns, there are women who get in dreadful car accidents -- and why? They try to bear the indifference of their husbands, giving him time to change or to respond to what they are doing, and they don't realize until it is too late that they are not able to bear the indifference and sometimes even the contempt.

Use the search function to look up posts by mulan. She stayed in Plan A. She kept trying, and now she is silent. Why? In a recent post, she said she had been hospitalized, and she was heavily sedated.

Is this what you want in your future? The future may hold people been sympathetic towards you because of your wife's nervous breakdown. You may even be sympathetic towards yourself.

The truth may well be hidden, but the truth will be that your wife tried Plan A until she crumbled.

Cherished



PS. I decided to post one of mulan's last posts so that you could see what might be in your future. It's from April. Here it is:


"he is leaving

says he is moving out in "early May"

didn't seem to realize that's only two weeks

please do not send congrats or tell me it's for the best or tell me to get happy

it's horrible

i will lose everything and so will my son

he did not show any signs of doing this until about six weeks ago, when i finally did what i should have done years ago

told him i would not go anywhere at all with him, even to the garbage can, unless and until he got rid of those girls

he immediately countered with "I should have manned up and thrown YOU out years ago for bitching about those girls"

and now he's walking out on us

admitted to my son's face that it's 100percent his idea

is this some kind of "somebody doesn't like plan b" on steroids?

He never showed any sign of leaving until i finally "plan b'd" him

and he was furious

angry

nasty

started packing

i broke down screaming

spent five days in a mental ward

now i'm on abilify and ativan

now that i'm drugged, he's using that to move out at his leisure

he is ordering me to go live with my daughter, in order to ease his conscience

he is pure evil"

Why wouldn't you at least try the basic concepts?

You have nothing to lose if you truly are where you say you are.

FROM this site:


3 states of mind in a marriage

In order for you to repair your marriage you must move from withdrawl - work through conflict - and only this way to do have a chance to restore love & intimacy.


Conflict avoiders would rather remain emotionally withdrawn and non-intimate with their spouse than deal with their emotions brought up by conflict.

If a person is a chronic conflict avoider - their chances of keeping ANY intimate relationship healthy is quite remote.

Tell your wife about all your adultery - because conflict will jolt both of you out of the marriage doldrums Harley refers to as The State of Withdrawl.

Pep

You guys are making me depressed. My wife and I have both read the quote you posted, Pepperband, and reading it again makes me feel hopeless. That's where we are. I couldn't help but pick up on the description of emotional divorce. We usually do sleep together, but occasionally not. We travel separately more times than together. We rarely eat breakfast together, never lunch, and about half the dinners. Only problem in our case, is that for me at least, the state of withdrawal has lasted a long time - it's become the norm for me. I can't seem to shake myself out of it.

And then your assessment about conflict avoiders and remote chances of a healthy relationship. My wife and I are both conflict avoiders in a major way. I've aready told her about everything. She knows it all.

And Cherished's account of nervous breakdowns or suicidal women in indifferent relationships. This is all very depressing. I think I need to take a break from this forum for a while. I just don't feel like dealing with all of this right now. Conflict aviodance -- see what I mean. No need to bump, bump me for a while. I'm going to try to stay away for the rest of the week.

Please understand that it is not only Cherished who warns about nervous breakdowns, BUT DR. HARLEY, a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience specializing in adultery. What you are doing to your wife is plain and simply ABUSE. Your abuse of her can very well lead to a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN AND/OR YEARS OF POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER. People commit suicide from being subjected to this kind of abuse.

That is what you are doing to your wife while you are focusing on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom on the sinking Titantic. You are causing SEVERE psychological damage to your wife with your abuse.


And how long does he recommend a woman stay in "Plan A?' THREE TO FOUR WEEKS.

Yeap ML, three to four weeks.

Thats what Steve told me when I counseled with him after I had already been in Plan A for >8+ months. He was worried for my sanity, as was I.

Jo

STOP

I take zero responsibility for your mood - good-bad-otherwise.






Yes. It's where you are because of conflict avoiding. Yours and hers.
Are you saying you wife is reading MB and now knows about your adultery?



Finding intimacy through conflict resolution a risk you are not willing to take.


I don't believe you - but , no matter.
I am not easily manipulated - so I am certain you will not find me an easy person to "get along" with.

Have a nice conflict-free MB vacation

Hey Pep. brwbm's wife knows all about his cheating cause brwmb is very HONEST about all of it, but won't stop despite her protests.



As far as his wife reading here, last I asked he said he didn't think so. But he keeps eluding that she is in his posts.

I see -

I still don't believe him

PS to add: I had his story a little mixed up with Hu's doozy.

brw,

So you are indifferent and apathetic towards the marriage.

I call BS to that. You are here, looking for answers. Folks who are indifferent and apathetic don't look for answers. They don't even ask questions, bro.

That argument doesn't wash.


Then, your feeble attempts at justification of the affair which you continue to throw out there make me want to puke and laugh at the same time.

"Invisible divorce" indeed. That's a new turn of phrase and I gotta give you some credit for it, but please, don't go there again, because call it whatever you want but it is what it is - failure to appropriately maintain your relationship. Plain and simple - you and your wife allowed yourselves to become complacent about your marriage, and allowed yourselves to drift apart.

That isn't really news around MB.

Typical, and not anything new.



You did talk about stopping contact and seeing yourself not in much better shape in the marriage, because things wouldn't change.


I gave that some thought. You talked of not wanting to work, and passing this off as laziness.

I read your post and saw thoughts of "wanting to change" running throughout, but nowhere did I see the idea that YOU had any control in your own life. In reading what you wrote, it is as if the complacency toward the marriage just "happened", and the things you predict for the future are not within your control.

You pass off the fact that you are just lazy, and won't work, and so there is no possible way to change this. So why bother?


Your "logic" is that you know you won't work at it, so you're not going to succeed.

I guess you're right. If your grand plan in this is that you are planning not to work at your relationship, planning to stay in contact with other women, planning to continue to treat your wife the same way you have been, planning to focus on yourself, planning to live as roommates instead of husband and wife, planning to just read the books and not apply any of the ideas.......etc..............

Then you will get exactly what you predict you will get.


But you cannot possibly blame the outcome on anything or anyone but yourself.


You will get what you put into the relationship.


Your investment into anything goes a very long way into determining the outcome.


So instead of "trying" counseling like you have in the past, this time, why don't you actually quit wasting your money?

Why don't you quit relying on SOMEBODY ELSE TO DO THE WORK?

Why don't you do the actual work in this relationship, and see if the results are different this time??????????

If you want something done right, you HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF.

Get up off your lazy a$$ and work. You might just rescue yourself in the process. And you may very well actually give a damn.

SB

Actually, I think it would be better for all of us here if you stayed away forever. The only flavor you add here is negative self empathy and narcissism to this entire forum.

Good folks here actually waste their efforts on you, because they cannot help but unlease their heart.

What a travesty.

Why don't you go spend your your favorite leisure time where you love the most, in front of your mirror.

And goodness, yes, take a break from all this introspection. It's very tiring. You may become exhauseted.

What a joke!!

Jerry

You say you feel hopeless. The excerpts Pepperband posted here explain WHY you feel hopeless. They also say that there is a way out, and you can lead your spouse to the state of intimacy. Now THAT is power!

You say you are too lazy or unmotivated to get started. I don't buy it. Like others posting to you, I think that your reading here and your willingness to look inward suggest that you have hope - or at least you wish there were hope to have

How hard is it, really, to take these first steps? The only hard thing about it is making up your mind to do it. Then you just tell your wife (this part is easy - this is going to be GOOD news for her), and go down the checklist. Look at it closely. How difficult are each of those items?

How would it feel to look at yourself in the mirror and say "Hey, I did it! I took the first step!" There will be many more steps, but they get easier and easier. Eventually investing in the marriage actually becomes FUN because the marriage is so rewarding.

But you have to take that first step. How hard is it, REALLY?

1. You write a NC email to OW and let your BW read it; you incorporate any suggestions she has that you and she can both enthusiastically agree on, and you let her press "send"
2. You turn to your wife to help you through this separation from OW. You do this in multiple ways:
- put a rule on your email that automatically deletes any messages from her.
- delete any secret email or chat accounts
- share all your passwords with your wife
- allow your wife to install a key logger on the computer
- give your wife your cellphone and you get another one with a different number.
- you ensure your new cellphone account can be monitored freely by your wife (records are online, for example)

brwmb --

Of course, not all women persist until they crumble. Some get so fed up that they are done, and they will never ever consider reconciliation with their husband. I know two women like that. One actually changed her name back to her maiden name even though she and her ex-husband have children.

It's something to consider as you wait and consider trying to figure out if giving up the OW is worth it for you. Someday, the only woman interested in you may be the OW -- and what a prize she is, a woman willing to go after a married man, a woman who apparently does not believe in the paramount importance of marriage vows.

Who knows? Maybe you'll have then what you want -- a divorce without the guilt of having initiated it. Only you'll know the truth -- you'll know you pushed her to it by your open disregard for her feelings.

Honesty is a wonderful virtue. Face the truth. If you want out, get out. If you don't want out, make an effort before there is no longer an opportunity.

Cherished

Cherished makes a very good point.

When you go to sleep, which would make you sleep better?

Knowing you gave an honest effort and won or lost,

or knowing you just walked away shrugging your shoulders without doing a thing to try?



Somehow, inside of you there is a larger YOU.

This whole mess started with self-betrayal. You betrayed yourself when you knew you should have put forth the effort to reach out and recover the marriage after your wife's affair, and you went against yourself instead and did NOTHING except work toward destroying the marriage.

From that point forward, everything you have done has been to justify that self-betrayal.

SB

Well, it's been a few weeks since I last visited here, and I just wanted to update you guys. Before I do, I need to thank those of you who took the time to try to help me. I know that I rubbed many people the wrong way by my indifference. I appreciate the efforts of those of you who could see past that and see that I was searching for help. Thank you.

I guess the first thing to address is the no contact issue because that seemed to be a point of contention. I didn't go about it the standard way, which is to make it as difficult as possible for the other woman to contact me. The reason is that her contacting me wasn't the problem. The problem was me contacting her. I could change my phone, email, etc, and I could still contact her if I wanted to. My wife wanted to see the emails the other woman and I exchanged, and I showed her. She wasn't very happy about some of them, but she has decided she wants to know exactly who I am and what she's dealing with, even if it causes her emotional pain. I struggle with that, not wanting to hurt her, but I have agreed to share with her anything she wants to know. I sent a final email to the other woman on Monday telling her that we had to stop contacting each other. She replied and understood my position, and that's the last I've heard from her. I shared both emails with my wife. I told her I wouldn't send any more email and that if I received any, I would share them with her. Also, at my wife's request, I deleted the other woman's contact info from my phone. My wife knows that won't stop me from contacting the other woman if I really want to, but she saw it as a sign that I'm trying to get over this, ... that I'm not indifferent any more.

It's been a relief to get that behind me, and I can see now that it helps. Some of you on this forum may be tempted to ask what you could've done differently to make me see the importance of ending contact. I don't think anything. It was something I just had to figure out for myself. I eventually got to the point of realizing that if my marriage ended while still in contact with other woman, I'd have to live with the fact that the continued contact might have been the reason. I didn't want that to happen. My wife and I are still in a critical stage as far as figuring out what we want to do with our marriage, and it's not a given that we'll figure out all of our problems. If we decide to end our marriage, it'll be because of issues between us, not my continued contact with the other woman. She was distracting me from giving 100% of my attention to working on my marriage. I can see that now, and it's a lesson I had to learn myself. When I spoke with Peggy Vaughan over the phone about this, she said that continuing to contact the other woman while trying to repair the marriage was like a having a festering sore that won't go away. Ending contact is the only way to heal the sore. I see that now, and I guess I'm the kind of person that learns better from experience than from the advice of others. I'm thankful that my wife was, and still is, very patient with me. I'm sure a lot of women would've left me by now, and I'm very lucky to have a wife that's as committed to me as she is ..... VERY lucky!

The biggest issue my wife and I are facing right now is the feelings I have for the other woman. My wife knows that I still think about her, and she wishes I could replace those thoughts with thoughts for her. It's not easy, and in reading His Needs, Her Needs, it may never happen. Harley describes a difference between a woman coming out an affair and a man coming out of an affair. When the women returns to her husband and her husband starts meeting her emotional needs, he can feel fairly confident that she won't be tempted to stray again. But not so with a man returning to his wife; the man usually has a much harder time losing feelings for the other woman. Harley offers a few historical suggestions for this dichotomy including economics and polygamy, but he really doesn't know why. He says that one thing the husband and wife have to realize is the husband will be in love with two women for the rest of his life. He has seen cases where a man returns to his wife, they rebuild a happy marriage, and then 5 or 6 years later, the man contacts the other woman because he still loves her and misses her. That is depressing for both my wife and I. We had hoped we could eventually put this behind us and it would become a distant memory. The prospect of me having to fight urges to contact the other woman for the rest of my life -- that's hard to swallow. Anyways, that's an issue that my wife and I are trying to come to grips with. She's not sure she can handle it. And I don't blame her; I'm not sure if I could handle it either if the situation was reversed.

Some of you who read this might get the sense that I haven't expressed true remorse over what I did. That's true. I have been very sorry that what I did caused so much emotional pain for both my wife and me, especially my wife. But the actual affair itself, for some reason, I'm still not that sorry about it; hence, the title of the original post is still applicable. That bothers my wife because she feels if I'm not that sorry about it, it could easily happen again. I don't know. Because of the trauma this has caused both of us, I'd like to think it would never happen again, but then again, I never thought it could happen in the first place. It was one of life's curveballs that caught us both off-guard. So what do you think? I somehow feel that I SHOULD be sorry. But I'm not really. Is this normal? Will true remorse come later? If I'm not that sorry, does that mean I'm still not over the affair and I need to be extra careful? I'm looking for constructive help here. If you feel like bashing me or cursing me, please check your motives and consider refraining. I'm being honest with my feelings, but I'm a little leery to do so because of outlash I've felt before on this forum. I guess if it makes you feel good to beat up on someone or be an "I told you so," then go ahead, and I'll just have to deal with it.

In thinking about some of the negativism I've received regarding this thread, I think the reason is that a lot of people don't understand what it's like to be in a state of indifference regarding their marriage. Harley calls it the state of withdrawal in his description of The Three States of Mind in Marriage. (The other two states are intimacy and conflict.) If you've never been in the state of withdrawal, I don't think you can fully understand it. Think of having kids -- you can read all about it, you can hear other parents talk about what life is like with kids, you can even hear your own parents talk about it, but until you actually have kids of your own, you can't possibly understand exactly what it's like. I think the state of withdrawal is like that. Unless you've been in it, you can't really understand it. For example, one of the posters to this thread sarcastically suggested that I made up the term "invisible divorce" to justify my behavior. I did not. Harley calls it "emotional divorce." It's something real, and if you haven't been there, maybe it's just too difficult to imagine. Harley says that the state of withdrawal usually doesn't last very long. In my case, it lasted for a good two to three years. In hindsight, I think being in that state for so long led to an extremely apathetic attitude in me. If it's true that the state of withdrawal usually doesn't last long, then no wonder many people reading this thread couldn't understand my apathy. I may have been in an unusually extreme state of withdrawal, a state that took an unusual amount of time to come out of.

But I'm not there now. My wife and I realize that we have a long road ahead of us with no guarantees of success. We stopped going to our marriage counselor because it didn't seem like it was helping. Instead, I ordered several books that just arrived yesterday that we're both going to read together:

Surviving an Affair, Willard Harley
Love Busters: Overcoming Habits That Destroy Romantic Love, Willard Harley
The Monogamy Myth: A Personal Handbook for Recovering From Affairs, Peggy Vaughan
20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage, Steve Stephens
The Walk-Out Woman: When Your Heart is Empty and Your Dreams Are Lost, Steve Stephens

We've already read His Needs, Her Needs, and The Five Love Langages by Gary Chapman, but I read them from a state of indifference, and I should probably read them again.

Here are two issues that my wife and I are facing that if you have any thoughts on, I'd love to hear them.

1) For both of us, how to deal with the fact that I may have feelings for the other woman for the rest of my life. If I was a repeat offender and had had numerous affairs, I could see how the other women might all blend together and not seem very important. But this is the only time this has ever happened to me. When I think of significant people in my life that had an impact, the other woman ranks right up there with parents, siblings, wife, and kids. I tend to believe Harley's assessment that I'll have feelings for her for the rest of my life. How do I deal with that? How does my wife deal with that?

2) Although I'm ready to start working on our marriage, I still feel pretty flat regarding my wife. I'm happier at home alone than when she's there. I don't feel sexual attraction to her. She's more like a room-mate. For me to be in a successful marriage, I need to have the kind of feelings for her that say she's my highest priority. I should cherish her. I should want her to feel loved. I should look forward to seeing her at the end of the day. She should feel that she's the most important person in the world to me. How do I get those feelings back? Is it possible to get them back? I'm worried that we'll go through some of the books and try out some suggestions, but I'll just be going along with the program, doing things because the books say to do them, but not really having anything sink in. I'm worred that I'll gain a lot of book knowledge without it really changing my heart. It's sort of like what I described above about my having to learn by experience. Reading books is like getting advice from others. I feel a need for something more substantial, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Well, that's pretty much where we are right now. I'm "sort of" looking forward to responses to this post, but I'm wincing a little because of past non-constructive criticism. I think there are some good-hearted people who honestly want to help, and I'm willing to take the good with the bad. For those of you who do honestly want to help, thank you.

It is not like you imagine. It is just like an alcohol addiction. A recovering alcoholic who is past withdrawal does not hanker for alcohol. In fact, the very thought is sickening to me. Similarly, my husband curls his lip at any mention of the OW now in the same way. He says ewwwwwwwwww and hates any reminders of what he calls his "dark days."

HOWEVER, if an alcoholic hangs out in bars, he can TRIGGER that old feeling in a heartbeat. And if he takes a DRINK, the cravings will come right back. It is the same with an affair. This is why Dr Harley is ADAMANT about no contact, to PREVENT these triggers.

The success of your recovery depends on both of your willingness to participate in the MB program. If you waffle or mess around you probably won't recover. Even if your affair is never rekindled, your marriage would continue to be so miserable that both of you would eventually make a dash for the door.

If you both follow the program and spend 15 hours per week meeting each other emotional needs, you can fall in love again. I mean this; YOU CAN FALL IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER. And if you never let anyone else meet your intimate emotional needs, the risk of another affair will drop to zero.

If i were me, I would sign up for Dr. Harley's next MB weekend seminar in October. It is worth every penny and is the BEST in the business. [Retrouville counselors come to MB weekends for their own marriages] You will get a crash course in MB and daily access to Dr Harley thereafter. His STAFF will hold your hands through the program for as long as it takes. It made a HUGE DIFFERENCE between doing it on our own and getting guidance.

**EDIT**

Let me just make a point about what is constructive and what is not. A non-recovered person is probably NOT the best judge of what is constructive.

So far, you only know how to have an affair; the folks here know how to RECOVER A MARRIAGE. If someone is telling you something you really LIKE, I would do a GUT CHECK to see if they were just telling you what you, a wayward, wants to hear, or if it really is constructive.

So please keep an open mind, grow a thicker skin, and pay attention to everything, EXCEPT name calling and personal attacks; we all agree that is not constructive.

**EDIT**

That's likely because you have no empathy.

Can you shovel in the food while watching a special on TV about starving children?

brw,

You seem committed to the idea that you will "always" love the other woman.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe somewhere down the line you will discover that you NEVER loved her.

The possibilities of what you will find in the future are multifaceted, and you should leave the door open to discovery.

Right now, you are in the earliest phases of no contact. This is a phase where you will try to hang on to the fantasy, because you need to


justify


what you have done.

Of course, you cannot look at it right now and say, "it was wrong, I am sorry, it was not worth it". Because to do that right now means that your self-deception and self-betrayal DID occur, and you are not ready to face it yet.

Trust me.

You betrayed yourself, and you betrayed your wife. You will reach a point where you are ready to accept this, and you will reach a point where you will be able to address the OW's role in this matter. Sooner or later, this happens. It even happens in affair marriages. The couple ultimately reaches the point of facing their bad decisions, bad behavior, and betrayal of themselves and their own morals. There is no avoiding it, and whether you admit it aloud, or see it only when you lie awake in the dark and consider it for hours while tossing and turning and trying desperately to fall asleep - you will know it, and you will regret what you have done.


You cannot betray yourself and not regret it, not be sorry for it.


You cannot call yourself human, cause this much pain, and not be sorry for it.

You will reach that point - whether you admit it or not.


SB

Hi schoolbus, no, I'm not "committed" to the idea that I'll love her for the rest of my life. I'm only staring at Harley's words and wondering if they're really true. I hope not, but they are very sobering for both me AND my wife:

from "His Needs, Her Needs," copyright 1986, pp. 170-171:

iam, what the h are you trying to post?? That's twice now, and I'm dying to know. How about if you let me know what time you'll post next. Give me a day or two advance notice. I'll try to be online at the same time and read your post before it gets edited. K?

brwn, he posted some puking smilies.

Did you READ MY POST about alcoholics? Because that is how Dr Harley explains the nature of the addiction when he EXPOUNDS. An alcoholic is ALWAYS IN LOVE with alcohol. But those feelings lie DORMANT until they are TRIGGERED by CONTACT. This is why an alcoholic cannot have one drink, this is why an adulterer should never have contact. You don't sit around and pine for your adultery partner every day.

Do you want to focus on RECOVERY instead of how you are pining for the OW? Because pining away for the destructive substance IS A DISTRACTION FROM YOUR RECOVERY. Do you want work on recovery?

Did you even READ my post?

Why provide the smilie if you constantly edit it?

That's what I said.

I say that because your statement makes me feel that way.

What you say amounts to this.....

"Yes, I raped someone, but it was the best sex I ever had so I don't regret it"

I hope your spouse wakes up and sends you to curb and can find someone who won't abuse them.

actually, that is a great question. I most always understand the mods here and have learned to work with them quite well...but I don't get how the use of an emoticon that the site has chosen to include could be against the TOS.

Perhaps Justuss can clear that up for the board.

Brwmb:

Glad you came back. And realized a couple of things.

Enlightment sometimes happens in a flash, and sometimes it takes a while to creep up on you.

Stay NC with the OW. Your feelings will change in time. And your fear that you will "always" be pining away for OW? Dr Harley is facing truth when he recognizes and explains that a WS will remember OW. Why not? They were important to you at one time.

But that will fade the longer you maintain NC. You not pining for your HS GF are you? No. You might have fond memories of her, but your not thinking about flying to her home and sweeping her off her feet. You think like that about OW NOW because her memory is still fresh. Let it recede in your rearview mirror some and you feel the same way as that older GF.

Your BS may divorce you. That is her choice. It's yours too. You CAN work hard to fix your M, and your BS may not ever want to do the work. You can D her, if you want. However, you should AT LEAST give it the time and the methods explained by MB to fix the issues in your M. And yes, your BS needs to work on herself too.

Do I think about my OW? Yes. I can remember some of the things about her fondly. But she tried to destroy me, my W, my son, and my M. I'm guilty of getting involved with her, I own my choices. Whatever fondness I can imagine for her now is blotted out by that NEW knowledge.

You can get there to.

LG

Folks, use of the smiley is just fine. Use of the puking smiley with personal attacks is not.

The puking smiley is kinda gross. I would not miss that one at all if you disposed of it.

Just lay off roll eyes.

:RollieEyes: :RollieEyes: :RollieEyes:

whatevah!!

:RollieEyes: :RollieEyes:

Hi Melody, I DID read your post, and I'm sorry I didn't reply. I got a little sidetracked with the editing of iam's posts and the smiley issue. I appreciate your advice and wanted to follow up with you.

I understand your analogy with alcoholism, but I've seen it work both ways. Both my best friend from grade school and my brother are recovering alcoholics. My best friend wants nothing to do with alchohol and has bad memories of it that keep him away. My brother, on the other hand, fights his temptation daily. He is not sickened by the thought of alcohol. He wishes he could return to drinking at a moderate level.

I think recovering affair spouses react differently as well. For instance, I've read some posts on here where a betrayed wife feels incredible hostility towards the OW and wants to vent. My wife does not. In fact just the other day, she said she prays for the OW in the hope that she'll see what she's doing is wrong and will change her life around. As for me, I don't think I'll get to the point of curling my lip at the thought of the OW like your husband does. I've been reading Surviving an Affair, and I'm thinking of the part near the beginning that describes the affairs continuum. I think if my affair had been closer to the one-night stand kind of affair with very little emotional attachment, it would be easier for me to feel yucky about the OW. But mine was much more towards the soul-mate kind of affair where the OW and I developed a strong emotional bond. Even though I realize I can't continue a relationship with her, I think I will always have feelings for her. She was not trying to destroy my marriage, never wanted me to leave my wife, and felt responsible for the emotional trauma my wife and I have been going through. I respect her for that.

I'm glad you pointed out how critical it is to follow the MB program. I'm not sure if we'll follow it to the T, but I take seriously your point about waffling around and not recovering. That's one of the things I worry about -- that my wife and I will work on things for a while, and they'll eventually fall back to the way they were. I realize that marriage is a lot of work, but I wish it weren't. I've heard of those rare stories where two people fall in love and stay in love for life -- grandpa still pinches grandma on the rear and they have a great time together without trying. Wishful thinking, I know, but I still wish.....

Your point about spending 15 hours/wk together, ... I remember reading about that in His Needs, Her Needs. When my wife and I talked about that, we were like, "15 hours/wk??? Are you kidding? Where are we going to find 15 hours/wk for each other?" It still seems like a tall order. We haven't figured out how to carve 15 hours out of our week to spend time alone together. Back in college when we were dating, it was easy. But now, it seems like there's so many things that need to get done just to stay afloat, ..... I don't know. Maybe when we're retired it'll be easier, but it seems really difficult right now.

Thanks for the referral to the MB seminar. We can't go that weekend, but I'll keep watching for the 2009 dates.

Your point about focusing on recovery instead of thoughts of the OW is well taken. You are right about it being a distraction. Just as continued contact with the OW was a distraction, so is thinking about her. What it comes down to is I'm still in MENTAL contact with her. I do think about her often, wondering what she's up to, how things are going in her life, etc. It's not so hard to "not contact" her, but it is much harder to not THINK about her. I can control my actions easier than I can control my thoughts. Do you have any suggestions for shutting down the mental contact?

Hi iam, in spite of how you meant it, I think the puking smiley is kinda cute!! It's amazing what they can make those little guys do.

I'm sorry that my post led to the reaction you had. I think most people who post here are genuinely looking for help. If my plea for help causes you to react with disgust, then maybe you need some help just like I do. Or in your words, maybe you lack empathy as well and could shovel food while watching starving children.

Let me ask you. Would you rather have me write honest feelings here and ask for how to deal with them? Or would you rather me fake it and say how sorry I am and how badly I feel when I don't really mean it. Seriously, which would you rather have me do?

I HAVE been struggling with why I don't feel remorse, thinking I should and wondering why I don't. I read a section from Surviving an Affair that makes me feel that I'm not alone (from p. 84):


Anyways, iam, I don't know your current situation, and I don't fault you for your reaction. If you're in an emotional state like I've been in the last couple of months, I can understand. It's ok. A few weeks ago, comments like yours had a very upsetting effect on me, but I'm better now, and like Melody says, I have to grow a thicker skin -- maybe I have already!!

In case it helps, let me give you a return smiley...

Hope you feel better!

Hi Schoolbus, thanks for your thoughts. I think I need to clarify how I feel. I AM sorry for what happened. I AM sorry for the pain it caused. My life seems so messed up right now, I wish I had never met the other woman. I think what it comes down to is intention. I had no intention of this happening. In hindsight, I see how my choices led to the current situation. But my intention at the beginning was to try to help my marriage. I see now how foolish I was, but in the beginning, it was never my intention. If I had set out with the mindset of "I'm in a bad marriage, and I'm going to look for another woman who can satisfy my needs," then, yes, I think I'd feel deeply sorry for my actions. I would feel incredible remorse for rebelliously turning away from my marriage. But as it is, I feel sort of like Pinocchio the puppet who set out on the right path but became ensnared by unwise counsel. Again, I accept full responsibility for my decisions. They were mine, I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm not tryin to justify my actions. Does that help clarify things?

Hi lousygolfer, your analogy about old girlfriends sounds very true. I think you're exactly right about receding memories as time goes on. In your case, you say that your OW tried to destroy your family. I think if my OW had been trying to do that, I would feel differently -- once I realized that, I think it would be easier to let go of her. But my OW never wanted to be a home wrecker. She just enjoyed the friendship we had, never wanted anything serious to develop out of it, wanted it to continue if possible, but understands that it can't.......

Geez, I need to stop writing about her. I DO have fond memories of her, and thinking about this just revives them and makes me miss her......... Ok, gotta stop.

I asked Melody this, and maybe you can help as well. I DO think about her often and wish I wouldn't. Do you have any suggestions, other than simply riding it out, to deal with the thoughts of her that come to mind? One area that's probably the hardest for me is when I walk my dogs. I used to talk with her on the phone a lot when I took my dogs for a walk. Now, I think about her almost every time I walk them. It's really hard not to. I don't have the urge to call her, but I do think about her. And I know keeping thoughts of her alive is making it harder for me to re-connect with my wife. I wish I could get my wife to come with me, but she's usually too busy and she doesn't enjoy walks as much as I do.

you know what brwmb I am curious to see what people answer you on the "stop thinking about her" idea. Because that is my problem as well. I journal it trying to get it out of my head and that seems to work about 50% of the time. But like you at those still times in life I find myself thinking about her and it sucks.

brwmb, I didnt get any further than this because your incorrect premise precludes a correct conclusion. See, the problem with your BROTHER is that he has not really accepted that he is an alcoholic. He is not honest with himself, otherwise he wouldn't be dreaming about changing himself from an alcoholic to a social drinker. He would ACCEPT that is an impossible dream. That is like the butterfly "wishing" he could be a caterpillar again. So, be assured the story of your brother is not the story of someone who is very far into recovery, if at all.

When I speak of the attitude of a recovering alcoholic, I speak primarily of those in RECOVERY. Not those who are NOT.

I will try and reread the rest of this later, but it would be helpful if you could cut down on the LENGTH of your posts. Most people will not take the time to read these too long posts, nor should they be expected to. You will get much more asistance if you scale them back to about a THIRD. Thanks

I agree you should NOT be writing about her. As with any kind of withdrawal, the way to recovery is to focus on RECOVERY and to RE-TRAIN your mind to change the subject when it comes up. The WORST thing you can do is talk about it.

For example, when I was younger I had a bad habit of terrorizing myself with very negative thoughts. [mental masturbation] I was so obsessed with WHAT IF that I missed WHAT IS. I retrained my thinking to BANISH those thoughts by wearing a rubber band on my wrist and popping it whenever my mind wandered in that direction.

It will also be key for your wife to be a safe place to land as you withdraw. That means that she needs to effectively learn to meet your needs along with avoiding lovebusters.

Ok, I will try to cut back. You made a lot of good points, and I wanted to thank you for all of them.

Maybe if your posts weren't so full of helpful information, ....... just kidding keep it coming!

Did you tell your wife this? I would find a solution to situations like this and either CHANGE THEM or stop them. For example, ask your wife to go with you. If she won't then stop walking the dogs.

Is she commited to building a romantic relationship with you? Because this would be a good opportunity for her.

Here is what Dr Harley says it will take:


Requirements for Recovery

You can't stop walking the dogs. That is not an answer.

Somethings in life you have to do, so you just have to work with them. You can't just avoid every trigger in life, that is impractical.

I will say your idea of retraining your brain to think differently is good though. Any links etc... on the subject?

He needs to look for CREATIVE SOLUTIONS to avoid triggers such as this. Walking dogs is not something anyone has to do. Trying to "work with" triggers will slow down his recovery immensely. He has to surrender and admit defeat. The way to do that is to AVOID, not to play a test of wills in a contest he has already lost.



Just my common sense. It was amazingly easy actually. Every time a BANNED thought hits your mind, TRAIN your mind to REJECT it and shift to something more productive. This got me out of the habit of obsessive thinking that often comes with addictions.

I think obsessively (I did even before the affair) and it's gotten worse. Any suggestions or links on how to train your mind to reject these?

Sorry to t/j!

Not to be nit picky but this suggestion is overly simplistic.

What did you do (specifically) to "TRAIN" your brain. The devil is in the details and you are glossing over that important factor. Was is just the rubber band that did the trick or did you do other stuff?

Can give and example of what a bad thought was and then what you thought of.

Espirit, I used a rubber band on my wrist and just became AWARE of my negative thoughts.

But you have to establish the DETAILS all on your own because you define what is positive and what is negative in your life. It really is very simple. You don't need a step by step manual along with instructional videos to do it, just common sense.

For example, when a targeted negative thought comes in your head, snap the rubber band on your wrist and take charge of your thoughts. Have a subject at the ready that is PRODUCTIVE and POSITIVE - FOR YOU - and switch to that subject. After awhile, you will have trained your mind to not go where you don't want it to wander.

Hi Melody, this issue of controlling your thoughts is interesting. I took my dogs for a walk this morning and ....

wait, first I want to address your view that I don't HAVE to walk the dogs. Technically, you're right; I could just ignore their need for exercise. I don't know if you have dogs, and if if not, you might not be able to sympathize with me, but as a dog lover, ignoring my dogs would depress me more than just about anything. I believe strongly in the adage "a dog is a man's best friend." To me, they're the epitome of friendship. Dogs are more faithful than some of us on this forum, including me. They're an inspiration to me at times. Ignoring them is just not an option for me. I have to take care of them, or rather, I have a need to take care of them, and walking them is part of it. My wife is a cat person and doesn't particularly enjoy walking the dogs. It's one of the differences between us that we accept.

.... so, anyways, I was walking the dogs, and sure enough, I started thinking about the OW. Almost as soon as I did, I tried to take your advice and turn my thoughts to something else. But the more I tried to think about something else, the more I realized in the back of my mind that I was doing it to avoid thinking about her, and the harder it became. An analogy with sleep came to mind. Occasionally, if I wake up in the middle of the night, I'll stare at the clock and think to myself "I have to get back to sleep." The more I try to fall back to sleep, the harder it becomes. I've had cases where I've been up for an hour or two trying to get back to sleep. One thing I've learned that helps is to reason with myself. Accept the fact that I want to get back to sleep, realize that eventually I WILL get back to sleep, and stop worrying about the fact that I'm not sleeping at the moment. If I do that, I tend to relax, and I often fall back to sleep much easier. I'm wondering if when I think about the OW, I should just chill out and not try so hard to NOT think about her. Just let the thought come and go and don't stress about it.

This might be one of those things where what works for you doesn't always work for everyone. Maybe your technique is the quickest way to recovery, but maybe it just doesn't work for everyone. Maybe you're mentally tougher than I am and can control your thoughts better than I can. I don't really know, but it IS an interesting psychological problem.

Is this about the right length of post? Or still a little too long. And one other question, what does t/j mean? I've seen that a couple of times. Thanks for your help.

"My wife seems more committed to working on re-building our marriage than I do,"

Your wife IS more committed to working on re-building your marriage than you are.

"and our counselor has described my position as being on the fence;"

On-The-Fence: wishy-washy, weak, indecisive, lethargic, lacking in integrity, sitting back and taking, cake-eating, not taking personal responsibility...

"I don't want to stay,"

Because that would require more work and effort on your part.

"but I don't want to leave."

Because your wife, whether or not you want to admit it and give her any credit, IS meeting certain needs of yours that the OW is not.

"I don't want to stay because the marriage feels like nothing to me,"

The marriage feels like nothing to you partly because you aren't investing into it, partly because in order to justify the adultery you have to believe that the marriage is nothing.
To admit that YOUR marriage feels like nothing to you is to admit your own apathy and lack of effort and attention given to your marriage. If your marriage feels like nothing to you, who do you imagine is to blame for that? Your wife alone? Fate?
Nope - it is YOUR responsibility to build and protect your marriage, to ensure that it is fulfilling and strong.

"but I don't want to leave because we have kids."

You say you don't want to leave because of the kids...
Presumably because you FEEL love towards your kids, right?

Love is more than a feeling - it's a verb.

Do you love your kids just a little bit or a lot?

Do you love them enough to protect their family from being destroyed by adultery?
Do you love them enough to put their well-being above the thrill you get from the adultery?
Do you loev them more than you desire the OW?
Do you love them enough to not merely stay (and then feel sorry for yourself because you are supposedly being deprived?) but to actually do whatever it takes to model for them what a strong, healthy, SATISFYING marriage looks like?

Or is your reason for wanting to stay because of the kids a purely selfish reason? Like you would miss the kids, and you think you're entitled to live with your kids and share everyday and special occasions with them... PLUS have fun on the side with the OW? How much of your staying because of the kids for your benefit, not theirs? ENDING THE ADULTERY and staying for the kids would be truly 'for the kids'.

To continue the adultery while staying 'for the kids' (or worse allowing the adultery to continue long enough that it destroys your marriage and family and THEN expecting the kids to still want to be around you and pretend you didn't hurt them), is not really 'for the kids'...

Staying while staying in contact with the OW is selfish cake-eating;
staying on contact with the OW until your marriage/family is destroyed isn't 'for the kids' either.

The ONLY way you can honestly claim that you are doing something 'for the kids' is to completely end all contact with the OW, then commit to rebuilding and protecting your marriage.

Do you see why I said you shouldn't be walking the dogs?

I see nothing in this long missive about creative ways to AVOID WALKING THE DOGS. But I see lots of bullcrap about why you have to continue doing something YOU KNOW triggers you.

And yes, I do have dogs. No one is holding a gun to my head making me walk them.

I am not going to do your thinking for you, brwmd, but I am not convinced of your willingness to recover when you look for EXCUSES to continue behavior that you know triggers you INSTEAD OF SOLUTIONS.

NO ONE HAS TO WALK DOGS IN AMERICA. Come back with some creative ways to AVOID it.

If you are not going to lift a finger to faciliatate your own recovery, then neither am I. I would rather paint my toenails.

"I understand your analogy with alcoholism, but I've seen it work both ways. Both my best friend from grade school and my brother are recovering alcoholics. My best friend wants nothing to do with alchohol and has bad memories of it that keep him away. My brother, on the other hand, fights his temptation daily. He is not sickened by the thought of alcohol. He wishes he could return to drinking at a moderate level."

Perhaps one of them hit bottom before quitting but the other didn't?

Or maybe one of them has set up boundaries to avoid being in situations, or with certain people, thereby not placing themselves in the path of temptation as much as the other person?

Or maybe one just has a more mature, responsible outlook and realizes the danger and yuckiness while the other still underestimates the negatives, overestimates the pleasure, and feels sorry for himself that he is 'deprived'?

I didn't think I'd ever get over my HS boyfriend... but I did.
He had his good points and his bad.
Of course I am still aware of some of his positive traits but I am in no way attracted to, or 'in love with' him anymore LOL.

My WXH destroyed our marriage and family for an OW.
I still think about him sometimes, both his negative and positive qualities. I have a much more objective persepctive of him now that I am not so 'in love' with him anymore.
And of course I was CERTAIN I would never stop feeling 'in love' with him too... but I really don't think of him that way anymore and have trouble even imagining getting back together with him now (and we were married 25 years!).

You can get over the OW.
You also can fall back in love with your wife again.

Your current feelings, no matter how strong they feel to you at the time, aren't really a valid indicator of what the future holds.

It is your choices and actions that are the main factor - not your feelings du jour (or even your feleings tomorrow or next week...month...)

Adultery gives you a chemical high that you get addicted to.
You will go through withdrawals - that is normal.
The withdrawal symptoms are in no way evidence that the thing (or person) who gave you the high was therefore a positive that should remain in your life!

And beware that while resuming contact with the OW will temporarily give you a quick fix and make you FEEL good, it will not make you a healthier, happier person in the long run.

In addition to snapping that rubber band on your wrist remind yourself that the OW is most definitely not perfect. And don't forget to think, say, do positive things regarding your wife. Part of why we 'fall in love' with somebody is because we like the things they say to and do for us... but it's just as true that we also fall in love with them BECAUSE of what we say to and do FOR them. Focus on your wife's positive qualities, compliment her, thank her, hug her, flirt with her, do things for and with her... and you WILL fall back in love with her and WILL start to wonder what you ever saw in that OW.

You used to love your wife so much that you believed that you never had, and never would, loev another woman as much, right?
But then you started saying/doing/sharing thigns with the OW that you had stopped saying/doing/sharing with your wife, right?
SO THEN you 'fell in love' with the OW and believed that you 'loved' the OW more than you ever loved your wife, and presumed that you would always love the OW that much, and never woudl love anyone else but the OW (not even your wife) as much as you love the OW, right?

But you already know that no matter how sure you feel about that, based on your current feeling about whom you are in love with, that COULD change, right? Because it DID change before, when you fell out of love with your wife and fell in love with the OW.

Love the feeling is affected by love the verb, not just the other way around.

Every morning when you get up, spend some quality time with your wife TALKING to her and listening to her. Get up earlier than your normal time and cook/eat breakfast together or go out to eat. And/or take a morning walk together. It doesn't matter what you talk about - the weather, a joke you heard, something you saw on tv or heard on the news... whatever - it does not have to be relationship stuff.

Make sure that your wife is the person that you talk to and listen to the most during a typical day. As much as is possible/practical discuss everything with your wife first before anyone else, even silly and mundane stuff.

Plan to spend time alone with your wife 15 hours per week, dates, walks, snuggling, drive in the country... just the two of you.

Plan to do some things that are exciting or maybe even a little scary (IF it's something she would not object to or feel offended or horrified by); maybe ride a roller coaster, watch a suspenseful movie, or ride in a hot air balloon, TOGETHER.

Good job on sending the NC letter, brw. Stick to it!

I understand all those thoughts that come at you about the OW...especially when you're doing something specific that triggers the habit of thinking of her (walking the dogs, etc.).
I had issues with that for a little while after NC was established, too. But, like Melody suggested, it really is as simple as training your brain to stop those thoughts. It's not exactly easy at first, because part of you wants to think about them. I think you'll be surprised to find how quickly it gets easier, tho.

As much as possible, when I had thoughts about OM I would pick up the phone and call my H. Or, if he wasn't available, I'd call my mom or sister. (Never anyone who an enabler of the A. I immediately cut ties with all those people anyway.) I used to be a lunch-time power walker....all that time alone left lots of time to think of the OM. So, I got a mini-cassette player and some self-help tapes to keep my mind occupied while I walked. Or I’d get someone to go with me. If I’d had a cell phone back then (1994), I would’ve called H while I walked.

My H has said he did similar things during his withdrawal from OW. He replaced his habits with new ones that included me...or positive influences. We didn’t have the benefit of MB during our dark days, but we both realized we needed to constantly reach out to each other to reconnect, especially when we were having trouble shaking those old thoughts and images. I don’t remember that either of us ever specifically said we were trying to not think of the OP, tho.

You can do this brw. I promise. It gets easier and easier. Eventually I bet you’ll be like me, my H, Melodylane’s H...almost every exWS I know...you’ll get to the place where you don’t think of the OW with love or affection. You’ll likely feel ashamed and grossed out. I know I do.

Good luck.

Lori

"so, anyways, I was walking the dogs, and sure enough, I started thinking about the OW."

Well the logical thing to do is what Melody suggests:

Don't walk the dogs.

That does NOT mean that therefore the dogs don't get their walk... that just means that you aren't the one taking them for their walk. Have somebody else take them for their walk (my daughter has a teen friend who does this for a very small fee - you could easily find somebody to pay to do this where you live).

Or you could try something to interfere with the dog-walking being something that keeps you thinking about and bonded to the OW:

Have somebody walk the dogs with you (preferably your wife) and talk to them while walking. (OR call your wife on your cellphone and talk to her while you're walkig the dogs.)

Walk the dogs someplace different than the place you normally walk them - someplace you have not walked the dogs while dwelling on the OW, where you're not used to the scenery/path so that will get more of your attention.

Listen to an audio book through a Walkman or I-Pod while walking the dogs.

Make mental lists while walking the dogs of things you need to do, your wife's positive traits, what you need to get at the grocery (or hardware) store, what you plan to get the kids for Christmas, what you have to do at work tomorrow, how many ties you have and what they look like... whatever.

Think about your kids instead.
Hey if I was so addicted to something or somebody that it made it difficult to keep my thoughts on my children instead it would REALLY motivate me to dump that addiction ASAP! Get angry at the addiction/OW for usurping so much of your thoughts away from those in your life who really matter.

Oh and every time you find yourself thinking about the OW at least think something negative about her.
Snap that rubber band on your wrist as you remind yourself that she was a threat to your family, somebody that it is YOUR JOB to protect your family from. Tell yourself, "NO - I do NOT 'love' the OW - I love my kids!"

BRW:

Your post about the dogs?

1. Have your wife walk with you. Take the kids as well. So what if it more effort. Your putting more effort into walking the dogs then recovering your marriage is sounds like.

2. When you think about OW while walking, you can look at your W and ask her about her day. Now your not thinking about OW.

3. Changing behaviors leads to changed outcomes. Spending more time with your W results in better outcomes.

You can do this.

It takes time.

LG

What if I said brushing my teeth reminds of the OW? Would you tell me to stop brushing my teeth? Or have someone else brush them for me? I think you guys are being a little dogmatic. Or maybe DOGmatic, I should say!

Thanks atpeace, your words are encouraging. Same with yours lousygolfer. I will work on the things you suggest.

OK, what if I rob banks, I mean I really love robbing banks, I cannot get enough of it.

Ohh, what could ever help me QUIT robbing banks! Heck, whenever I drive by a bank, I get the terrible desire to ROB it! This desire CONSUMES me! What should I do to lose the desire to rob banks! It is EATING ME UP driving by banks and wanting to ROB them! People WANT me to quit robbing banks! Help!!!!

Hey, if you do crappy things in life for so many years...like maybe chain smoking, getting drunk, eating 10,000,00 calories each day, or having affairs, they become bad destructive habits. You become a crappy person. Once you are a crappy person it would be like climbing a hill trying to get back to normal.

Is the PAIN of being a good person worth the PAIN of giving up the crappy habits? Yes, or no.

BRW:

Don't get defensive about it.

If brushing your teeth WAS reminding you of OW, you WOULD have to do something else.

1. WHY did brushing your teeth remind you of OW? Did she:
A. Buy you the toothbrush?
B. Compliment you on your great teeth?
C. Was a dental hygenist?

2. Yes, you HAVE to brush your teeth, but you have to change the memory triggers in yourself. For instance, I DID by OW a toothbrush, that she could use in my office. I open that drawer, and see her toothbrush, it would make me think of her. Dday comes. I don't open that drawer much. I open it one day and there is the toothbrush. I clean the toilet with it. Then threw it away.

I didn't want the POSITIVE memories of that toothbrush. I WANTED the negative ones.

So yes. If walking the dogs triggers thoughts of OW, then you have to understand WHY they do, and then make changes to them. Take the W. Talk to W. If she won't walk, take cellphone, call W. If she won't talk to you that way, call your mother. It's been awhile.

LG

What if I said reading your inane posts makes my [censored] hurt?? Would you tell me to STOP reading them?? I hope so! I have no intention of taking your recovery more seriously THAN YOU DO!

Instead I am going to do something useful like get a pedicure. Which color do you think is nicer, Shanghai Shimmer or Royal Flush Blush?

Ah, you're too funny, Melody!! You make me chuckle.

I wish I could meet you in person -- I bet we could have fun together!!

I'd love to give you a pedicure .... any color you like, darling

OH NO!!

"She was not trying to destroy my marriage, never wanted me to leave my wife, and felt responsible for the emotional trauma my wife and I have been going through. I respect her for that."

LOL You really do believe that don't you?

MOST OW emply the same tactic - pretended innocence, assuring the WH that they don't have destroying his marriage to his BW as their agenda... but then 'oops - it wasn't planned but we fell in love'... and by then they've got their claws in deep.

Wanna know why she told you that she didn't intend to hurt anyone or to destroy your marriage? So you'd let your guard down and wouldn't RECOGNIZE the danger she was to your marriage and family. And if you succomb to your cravings for her, divorce your wife to be with the OW, she knows you won't blame or resent her for it, just because she was smart enough to claim she didn't intend for that to happen. If you end up dumping your wife for her I bet she'll put on a pretty good act of how sad she is that somebody got hurt too...

I am a woman with 5 sisters and I ASSURE YOU that what she told you is NOT what she's bragged to her girlfriends! My WXH's OW had him convinced too... while she was bragging all over town how she had him "so wrapped around her pinky"! I'm not a fan of them myself but maybe you should watch a soap opera or two to rid yourself of your dangeously naive trust of OW.

OW PREFER to have the WH not be aware of their agenda - it works in their favor in so many ways.

You are sruggling with withdrawals from a very strong addiction and you're still defending the drug dealer dude. Whatever the OW claims, or has convinced you of, the fact is she HAS threatened your marriage. Heck it doesn't even matter if the OW really did think it was possible to get involved with a married man without harming his marriage (but my bet is like MOST females she's known otherwise since a very early age), she still is infact a threat to your marriage.

Your wife and children NEED you to recognize and neutralize that danger - to protect THEM - to be THEIR hero. It is not in any way noble for you to want to protect or defend the OW!

I don't know if you're being niave, think you're being 'noble', or are just still too addicted to see straight, but I seriously doubt that she didn't realize she was hurting your BW and threatening your marriage.

It is YOUR JOB to protect your wife/marriage, childen/family from OW. And you don't even realize the enemy IS the enemy?!?

Wow - that OW must be pretty darn good at her game!
She got her drugged barb into you pretty deep and you are defending her supposed honor?

Melody, sorry I did that. Just got carried away. I WAS humored by your response, and I don't know what came over me, but I just couldn't resist. Sometimes I think we all need to lighten up a bit. Hope I didn't offend you. Seriously, I do appreciate the time you take to think about my problems. I AM a problem-child, I'll admit it

...... and your response? ...... Perfect!!!! I loved it!!

____________________________

Meremortal, I understand your concern, I really do. At first, when I posted my story, I didn't read much else on this forum, but I have been reading more lately, and I can see how serious these affairs are. It looks like the typical OW/OM wants to pull the married spouse away from their marriage. In fact, I had a meeting w/ my counselor today and she said exactly that -- that there a lot of single women who would like to be in a relationship and they don't care if they wreck a home and get a married man to leave his family.

But really, the OW in my case IS different. I tried many times to meet her. Early on in my affair, I pressed her very hard to meet in person. I can't tell you how many times I begged to meet her. But she would never let me. She said that a face-to-face meeting would escalate our relationship way too much, and she didn't want me to have to deal with that. If she HAS been playing me as you suggest, I would be shocked. And I guess if it was true, then I would deserve every bit of misery that I'd have coming to me. But I really believe her. And I DO respect her. At the time, I thought she was being unreasonable by not letting me visit her. But now, I'm soooo glad she stuck to her guns. I can see now that if I had met her in person, I most likely would've been hopelessly addicted to her.

Besides, do I really think I would abandon my wife to pursue a porn star? C'mon, I might be dumb, as they say, but I'm not stupid!! She has online relationships with several other guys. I'm not that special to her. I know that. For a while, I got caught up in the fantasy that she and I were "soul mates," but I know now it was just a diversion from the boredom I had in my own marriage.

Meremortal, I do appreciate you being concerned about me and my family, but really, I will be ok, and I'm pretty sure my wife and I will be ok too. She's an amazing woman and has lots of patience. I've said this before on this thread, and I'll say it again, I am VERY lucky to have her.

You mention that I'm struggling with a very strong addiction. You know, I really don't think so. I haven't contacted the OW in a week and a half, and I don't have any urges to. I do miss her from time to time, but I think that will fade. I'm ok with the no contact, and I'm glad that she has respected it. ...... well, actually, I do sometimes wish she would try to contact me, but the longer I go without hearing from her, the more I realize that what we had really WAS just a fantasy on my part and nothing special on her part. I'm ok with that. I'm ready to move on.

One thing I've learned through this is that I think men have a need they don't often admit, or maybe don't know they have, and that's the need for an emotional bond. I had lost that with my wife and figured I could ride out life in a dull marriage and simply find happiness on my own. When I met the OW and formed an emotional bond with her, I realized that I had a need for something missing in my marriage. My main goal now is to rebuild that bond with my wife. I think we can do it, but it will take time and work. Amazingly, today is the first day that I actually started believing what a few counselors and a few people on this forum have said all along, ..... that we could rebuild our marriage to a truly wonderful state. I told my wife that when she got home and she was so happy to hear me say that. She has believed that for a while, but I was having trouble seeing how it could happen.

It sounds weird, and my wife was the one who actually said this, but it's almost as if the affair was necessary for us to get to the point of really working on our marriage. Before the affair, we were lazy and content with the status quo. The affair really shook us up and got us out of our complacency. My wife said it's too bad that it took something as traumatic as an affair to get us off our butts and into action, but if that's what it took, then in a way, the affair was a good thing. I know, I know, that sounds like such a bad thing to say, but do you see what I'm getting at?

A really ironic thought I had tonight as I was preparing dinner for my son and I (my wife works late), is that it would be so cool if my wife and I could get over this, get this thing so far behind us, that we could laugh at it, and, God forbid, even meet the other woman in person some day, TOGETHER, and laugh about it with her too! (Oh no, I can feel the 2x4's already.) Seriously, I even mentioned this to my wife after she got home, and although she didn't think it was as cool as I did, she wasn't upset by the thought. She has even wanted to call the OW at times just out of curiosity. She doesn't feel threatened by the OW and would like to understand the nature of the emotional bond I formed with her so that she (my wife) can better meet my need for it. I know most don't recommend the BS contacting the OW, but in the case of my wife and I, we're not afraid to try if for no other reason than to see what happens.

Bottomline -- I think we'll be ok. It'll take time, but I think we'll be ok. Thanks for your concern.

(Aw, Melody, I did it again, didn't I? I just proofread this and realized it's too long, isn't it? Sorry. I had a couple glasses of wine for dinner and got carried away. I'll do better next time.

dang, that boy went and wrote another novel!! ok, meremortal, its all yours!

p.s. no offense at all, glad you have a sense of humor!

~emphasis mine



Surely you can't be serious!!! Get a grip man!!! Seriously, those are DELUSIONAL thoughts...

Mrs. W

That is lunacy that is not helpful to your recovery. I wonder if you smoked some hoochie weed before you posted this? Truly. That is how wacked out this sounds. Either that or you are trying to get some attention by sounding nuts.

The OW is a danger to your marriage, so of course she is a THREAT; your wife would be insane to NOT feel threatened by someone who *IS* a true threat to your marriage. Not feeling threatened by a REAL THREAT is not a sign of emotional security, but a sign of emotional INSTABILITY or extreme foolishness. You would both be stupid to not recognize this threat.

I wonder if you say loony things like this in order to shock people? Either that, or you really are high on something. What gives? I just don't believe you are that messed up.

Seriously, I am still sitting here with my mouth agape in stunned amazement that anyone could be this foggy...

I agree with Mel, you are either on something, looking for a way to bring EVEN MORE shock value to your thread OR you need electro shock therapy...

Honestly if I was your wife and you had said this to me, you'd have "summer teeth"...As in: Some are on the floor...Some are on the counter...etc...

Wake up man!!!

Mrs. W

I recomend some electro-shock therapy to help you wake up and get a clue. You are seriously delusional.

Well, my intention was NOT to shock anyone, and, no, I'm not a drug user, so I guess the only thing left is I'm delusional. At least since my wife agrees with me, maybe we can be happily delusional together!

I can see by the responses that I DID shock people, but the responses don't say why. I need to know why you think my wife contacting the OW is a bad idea. If the OW is the enemy, what's wrong with getting to know your enemy? In warfare, that's always a good idea. What's wrong with it in this case? Melody, you said the OW is a threat to our marriage. What's wrong with trying understand that threat? Telling me it's delusional lunacy and that I need shock therapy is one thing, but tell me why. I need to know why.

My wife and I talked about this some more after I posted yesterday but before I read the replies. One thing my wife wants to know is the details of the emotional bond I formed with the OW. If the OW was meeting emotional needs, then my wife wants to better understand how we connected emotionally so that my wife can be that connection for me. When my wife asks me, I don't know how to describe the emotional connection. All I can say is that it was something intangible. My wife feels that if she talked with the OW, she might learn something that will help us. Maybe you guys think that is extremely naive and that we're playing with fire. I don't know. Give me some specific reasons why this is a bad idea. Also, if you disagree with my wife's reasoning for wanting to contact the OW, tell me what's wrong with her reasoning; why would understanding the emotional bond I formed with the OW, from the OW's point of view not help?

I'm not trying to shock anyone here. If anything, I'm a little shocked by the responses. ....... well, not really anymore, I've come to expect it by now.

Here's a new wrinkle in our situation that I was wondering if you guys can help me with. Much earlier in this thread I described a situation in our past in which my wife had planned a couple business trips with a male colleague including flying out of town together, staying at the same hotel, attending conference sessions together, etc. Even though I believe her that nothing affair-wise happened on those trips, I wasn't comfortable with the appearance of it. It was a major issue for us that we eventually got over but never completely settled. Well, just this morning, my wife said she was going up to a shopping center near where this guy works and wanted to know if she could have lunch with him.

I sort of sighed, not really wanting to answer the question. (I'm a conflict avoider, in case you don't know.) Deep down, I would prefer that she didn't, but I don't want to appear like I don't trust her. I don't want to constrain her. She's an adult, and I trust that she can make intelligent choices. And especially after MY infidelity that we're recovering from, who am I to be untrusting? I never really answered her, but she could tell that I was in conflict. I think she knows that I'd prefer she didn't meet him but that I wanted to leave the final choice up to her.

What do you guys think? Should I be concerned? After what I've done, do I have a right to be concerned? Her previous interactions with this guy were a big reason that led me to emotional withdrawal from our marriage, and somehow I hate to see this come up again. I'm positive she's not doing this in a revenge sort of way to get back at me; she's not the type. And her business reasons for wanting to meet him are reasonable. I should be able to accept that and not think twice about it. Is it MY unfaithfulness that taints me with suspicion? What do you think?

I wonder if she really is that delusional. I have my doubts and suspect she might be simply ignoring your fogbabble until your mind is restored. I understand that you might be that delusional, and perhaps you are a sociopath, I don't know. [your lack of remorse seems to indicate that]

But I doubt that she is this messed up that she would come on a board and express absolute ignorance about why the OW is a threat to the marriage. That is not the reaction of a NORMAL person, anyway.

I think if one does not understand WHY an affair would be a threat to a marriage and needs it explained to them, they are probably not RIGHT and no amount of explanation would suffice.

So, no. I don't believe she is this messed up that she needs it explained to her.

You know, I think it might be good for her to see him at such a critical time in your marriage when she needs the MOST support. It seems he was able to meet some needs in the past, so maybe he can now. It wouldn't be fair of you, IMO, to deny her that experience. And besides, she might come to RESENT your interference. And resentment is very bad for marriages, wouldn't you agree?

p.s. I think it would also be a very kind gesture to rent them a motel room so they can conduct their business in complete privacy. I think she would appreciate that and it would show your willingness to SUPPORT her in this trying time.

It is intangible because it wasn't REAL.
You can't describe it because it wasn't REAL.
Your connection was based on lies and secrets... of betrayal. Your wife doesn't need to have a connection with you that is anything like the OW!
She needs to have a real, true, open and honest connection with you that is build with love and committment.

You missed the point. The question wasn't "why is an affair a threat to a marriage?"

The question was, "why is it a bad idea for my wife to contact the OW?"

The answer is not "because an affair is a threat to a marriage."

Very good point. Thanks.

The question should be "How would you feel about chatting with the man who your wife was riding last night'?

You know, you might be onto something here. I would invite her over for dinner so your wife can get to know her better. They can compare notes! They might even find they have alot more in common than just you.

Try and be open minded, IAM! sheesh.. :RollieEyes:

Maybe it is time to go to an "open marriage" where you both can bang others or have emotional affairs with other people. I get it you actually never met your PORN OW in person....

"Meremortal, I understand your concern, I really do."

Um - NO you apparently do NOT.
But hey, some people just have to learn the hard way.

"At first, when I posted my story, I didn't read much else on this forum, but I have been reading more lately, and I can see how serious these affairs are."

Keep reading, and if you continue to take this so casually your story could end up being one of the worst ones here. Look in your son's eyes today and consider that unless you seriously shift your thinking you will be destroying his right to an intact family. My daughters were severely affected by their WF's (Wayward Father's) adultery. The youngest, 10 years old at the time starting cutting herself. The oldest totally shut down and had to be hospitalized for a couple of times for a few months (and is still, 7 years later, only a shadow of her former self), the middle daughter felt she had to take her WF's place and be the responsible, to grow up right away (at only 13).

"It looks like the typical OW/OM wants to pull the married spouse away from their marriage. In fact, I had a meeting w/ my counselor today and she said exactly that -- that there a lot of single women who would like to be in a relationship and they don't care if they wreck a home and get a married man to leave his family."

And this is some sort of surprise to you?
Did she also add that most of those women are clever enough to pretend otherwise?

"But really, the OW in my case IS different."

Oh PUH-LEASE! Do some more reading here dude - they're ALL suposedly 'different' LOL. IMHO the extent of your naive trust in this OW is matched only by the extent of her cunning ability to con you.

"I tried many times to meet her. Early on in my affair, I pressed her very hard to meet in person. I can't tell you how many times I begged to meet her. But she would never let me. She said that a face-to-face meeting would escalate our relationship way too much, and she didn't want me to have to deal with that."

So she plays the hard to get, tease the man along, until he is in an absolute frenzy of desire for her, until you "begged to meet her" game... and THAT is why you think she's innocent? LOL My guess is she is laughing harder than I am!

Maybe you don't know that many females, maybe you don't have 5 sisters like I do... but I ASSURE YOU she knew exactly what she was doing, exactly how to get you to beg.

Remember that scene from that 'Sandlot' movie where the kids were watching the lifegaurd put sunscreen on? One kids is going nuts and says "she doesn't know what she's doing"? The other (smarter) kid replied that yes she DID know exactly what she was doing. Dude this OW is an employee in the porn industry and you are so naive and trusting that you think she doesn't know what she's doing?

"If she HAS been playing me as you suggest, I would be shocked."

Well, then be shocked already because I assure you she has played you. BTW, how much did you have to charge to your credit card for this 'emotional bond' you had with her?

"And I guess if it was true, then I would deserve every bit of misery that I'd have coming to me."

Yup you would deserve it - BUT your wife and son most certainly do NOT. And it is YOUR JOB to protect them from OW like her.

"But I really believe her."

Why? Because it would be too embarrassing to admit you're wrong, that you've been duped by a porn industry employee?
Because pretending she's innocent and you are her knight in shining armor defending her honor, protects your own ego?
(Meanwhile in reality you are failing to protect your wife and son - failing to be the hero they need and deserve.)

"And I DO respect her."

Why in the world would you respect a porn worker who has lured you in and gotten you addicted to her product?

"At the time, I thought she was being unreasonable by not letting me visit her."

She's a porn worker dude - that's all.
Just like those 'dancers' at strip clubs you are nothing special to her, no matter how much money you shove down her g-string (or rack up on your credit card to see her online) she isn't going home with you at the end of the night (not for free anyway). You're just one of her many customers.

"But now, I'm soooo glad she stuck to her guns. I can see now that if I had met her in person, I most likely would've been hopelessly addicted to her."

You ARE addicted to her, pathetically IMHO.
And you are still hoping to meet her in person.

"Besides, do I really think I would abandon my wife to pursue a porn star?"

It's happened before. Even porn workers and prostitutes usually have the goal of meeting a man who will marry them someday.

"C'mon, I might be dumb, as they say, but I'm not stupid!!"

No comment...

"She has online relationships with several other guys. I'm not that special to her. I know that."

Then your marirage might be somewhat safe because she might have better targets than you. What did you tell her about yourself? She has access to lots of men and probably to their wallets too. You might be safe if she thinks you don't have as much money or earning potential as some of the other fellas she got hooked on her.

"For a while, I got caught up in the fantasy that she and I were "soul mates," but I know now it was just a diversion from the boredom I had in my own marriage."

Ah yes - the 'soulmate' delusion.

"Meremortal, I do appreciate you being concerned about me and my family, but really, I will be ok, and I'm pretty sure my wife and I will be ok too."

Whether or not your marriage is safe depends on your actions.
The sooner you get out of the fog the better.

"She's an amazing woman and has lots of patience. I've said this before on this thread, and I'll say it again, I am VERY lucky to have her."

Hmmm - looks like her planning to go meet her male friend for lunch may indicate that you've overestimated her 'patience' with you a tad, eh? No doubt your wife agrees that you are very lucky to have her; and maybe she thinks it's about time for your luck to run out?

"You mention that I'm struggling with a very strong addiction. You know, I really don't think so."

Of course you don't think so... you just think it's 'normal' to BEG a porno worker to meet with you in person. Yea that's it, you're not addicted, it's perfectly 'normal' to think you've become 'soulmates' with the person selling you pron. You can't even walk your dogs without obsessing over the OW. (You must subconsciously at least see the connection between 'dog' and the OW.)

"I haven't contacted the OW in a week and a half, and I don't have any urges to. I do miss her from time to time, but I think that will fade."

If you continue to resist the urge to contact her (you know that addictive urge, but hey let's pretend it's not an addiction) then yes, your will think less of her. You will think less of her as in less often AND you will think less of her as in you will let go of your delusion that she is in any way a respectable or innocent person.

"I'm ok with the no contact, and I'm glad that she has respected it. ...... well, actually, I do sometimes wish she would try to contact me, but the longer I go without hearing from her, the more I realize that what we had really WAS just a fantasy on my part and nothing special on her part. I'm ok with that. I'm ready to move on."

It will work in your favor that her only interest in you was that you were just one of her many customers. Also, the porn industry sometimes employs bouncer types to get rid of the guys who don't get it that the porn worker is not their 'soulmate'. So it would be very wise of you to not harrass her with any future contact.

"One thing I've learned through this is that I think men have a need they don't often admit, or maybe don't know they have, and that's the need for an emotional bond."

What you apparently have yet to learn is that OW are well aware of that need and how to go about subtly and slyly meeting that need in order to get married men to fall in loev with them.
Until you accept that fact you will be powerless, impotent, when it come to protecting yourself, your wife, and your son from OW who cross your path.

BTW, are you done with porn?
Do you understand now how those employed in the porn industry are highly skilled in how to get men to beg for more?

"I had lost that with my wife and figured I could ride out life in a dull marriage and simply find happiness on my own."

Because of apathy - yours too not just your wife's.
I once read that marriage is like bread - you have to get up and make it again every day.

"When I met the OW and formed an emotional bond with her, I realized that I had a need for something missing in my marriage."

And hopefully you will also soon realize that OW and porn workers know how to EXPLOIT that to suit their own agenda.

"My main goal now is to rebuild that bond with my wife. I think we can do it, but it will take time and work."

It will also take some humility and the death of some of your favorite self-deceptions on your part too. Repeat after me:
OW and/or porn workers know how to exploit male desires AND EVEN know how to do so without the males suspecting they are being played.

"Amazingly, today is the first day that I actually started believing what a few counselors and a few people on this forum have said all along, ..... that we could rebuild our marriage to a truly wonderful state."

That was an example of the fog temporarily lifting a little.
As you continue to reject contact with the OW you will defog more and more.

"I told my wife that when she got home and she was so happy to hear me say that. She has believed that for a while, but I was having trouble seeing how it could happen."

But then you blew it with telling her you thought it would be a good idea to meet the OW. (BTW, if my WXH had ever suggested that the OW meet me I would have said yes too... it wouldn't have been pretty...)

"It sounds weird, and my wife was the one who actually said this, but it's almost as if the affair was necessary for us to get to the point of really working on our marriage."

I understand that and even said somthing similar tomy EXH once too. But I'm telling you from a BW perspective that does NOT translate to your BW will understand if you EVER contact the OW again, or ever get involved with another OW. What your BW IS telling you is that you'd better turn this around real quick like, make sure you've learned the right lessons, and treat this as your wake-up call to literally wear yoursefl out working to improive the marirage now.

"Before the affair, we were lazy and content with the status quo. The affair really shook us up and got us out of our complacency."

That is yet to be seen and depends on your ability to learn and do the work.

"My wife said it's too bad that it took something as traumatic as an affair to get us off our butts and into action, but if that's what it took, then in a way, the affair was a good thing. I know, I know, that sounds like such a bad thing to say, but do you see what I'm getting at?"

Yes I undersand that but I want to warn you that she also is very aware that if she had married a man who wasn't so trusting of OW, who didn't succomb to the temptation of porn, who had loved her enough to not even be interested in OW and porn.. then she'd not be in this situation today. And she is also very aware that some men are smart enough, or might love her enough, to not fall for OW or porn. If you're smart you will work your butt off showing her that you have changed and are putting all the effort you can into the marriage.

"A really ironic thought I had tonight as I was preparing dinner for my son and I (my wife works late), is that it would be so cool if my wife and I could get over this, get this thing so far behind us, that we could laugh at it, and, God forbid, even meet the other woman in person some day, TOGETHER, and laugh about it with her too! (Oh no, I can feel the 2x4's already.)"

That was not an "ironic thought" - that was a delusional fantasy CAUSED by an ADDICTIVE URGE.

"Seriously, I even mentioned this to my wife after she got home, and although she didn't think it was as cool as I did, she wasn't upset by the thought."

You are still SO addicted that you had to convince yourself that this might be a good idea, SO wanting to meet the OW in person (um because you ARE addicted) that you even didn't realize how stupid it was to blurt this out to your wife!!!
Dude - take that rubber band off your wrist, hold it in front of your mouth, stretch it as far as you can, then let the far end go.

"She has even wanted to call the OW at times just out of curiosity."

Yea I wanted to call the OW too... I did call her in fact... I was 'curious' too (hmmmph) I was SO curious the OW is very afraid of me now LOL.

"She doesn't feel threatened by the OW and would like to understand the nature of the emotional bond I formed with her so that she (my wife) can better meet my need for it."

I didn't feel "threatened by" the OW either (um other way around LOL). But hey, why don't you give your wife the OW's contact info so she can contact her? Why not let your wife satisfy her 'curiousity'? BTW, your wife doesn't need to learn anything from the OW about how to better meet your needs. That's an insulting notion. (Remember that BW who ran her WH over with the car, repeatedly, until he was dead? He had given her a list of ways she could improve herself to be able to meet his needs as well as the OW supposedly did...)

"I know most don't recommend the BS contacting the OW, but in the case of my wife and I, we're not afraid to try if for no other reason than to see what happens."

I say give your BW the OW's contact info but YOU stay should not have ANY contact with the OW.

"Bottomline -- I think we'll be ok. It'll take time, but I think we'll be ok. Thanks for your concern."

IF you get a clue you may be right.

mere, is the OW a porn worker? I missed that part. That is even better!

"Besides, do I really think I would abandon my wife to pursue a porn star? C'mon, I might be dumb, as they say, but I'm not stupid!! She has online relationships with several other guys. I'm not that special to her. I know that. For a while, I got caught up in the fantasy that she and I were "soul mates," but I know now it was just a diversion from the boredom I had in my own marriage."

And I went for the record for longest posts in my response to his long post LOL.

I probably should have broken it down into about a dozen separate responses LOL.

So she assured you she didn't intend to break up your marriage and get married to you? And you believe her?

Dude THAT is the most dangerous type!

My WXH was a smooth-talking serial adulterer, highly skilled con-artist, using OW and then tossing them aside. Our family counselor told me he is sociopathic even. But BECAUSE the latest OW had a REALLY CONVINCING 'good girl' game, told him no and made him jump through all kinds of hoops, BECAUSE she played him along and made him wait and do so much to 'catch' her (um her plan all along) by the time she finally said yes his cravings for her were out of control.

My WXH's 'good girl' style OW said she "didn't want to break up a marriage" so my husband tried picking fights with me so I'd maybe kick him out. When that didn't work he became physically violent. I got a restraining order and then she allowed him to start dating her. But she also said she wouldn't be "second place" to his daughters and needed to be assured that "his family was totally out of his life" too. So he pretended that I wouldn't allow him visitation with his daughters (he refused visitation unless I would let him violate the restraining order and come to my home AND go along with him and daughters for visitation). Since I wouldn't allow that he was then able to go to the OW and assure her that he was all alone, his wife kicked him out and his daughters were out of his life too. So then she started dating him (before that it was 'just' an EA and going out to lunch togehter).

She basically had him checking off things on her to-do list:
___dump wife
___dump daughters
then I'll have sex with you.
And she did it in a way that she maintained her 'innocence'...
the break-up of our marriage supposedly had nothing to do with her...

In your case instead of playing the 'good girl' version of the game the OW played the 'don't worry - talking to me won't harm your marriage and you can't have me anyway version'.

Both tactics play right into the male desire to pursue, and the more unattainable the prize the more the male chases. PLUS the male doesn't even realize the danger because the OW's assurances that she has no agenda puts him at ease. These clever OW know better than to chase after men and make demands of them. They clearly understand what makes males tick and play that knowledge to their advantage.

Also both my WXH's OW and your OW were smart enough to use some other men as competition, knowing that would spark the male competitive urge. The OW in our case would go out on dates with other men besides my husband. She kept his guard down, and his pursuit mode going by doing so.

My WXH fell so hard for her that he literally sobbed like a blubbering baby at the thought of ever losing her to one of the other men. She mattered much more to him than his own daughters did.

She also was smart enough to pretend she wasn't expecting him to divorce me and marry her. She didn't reveal her agenda until after he was good and hooked. Not only did she secretly plan to marry him but she also planned to have 3 babies with him! She kept this plot of hers secret from him for over years. Her plan was:
1) get him to pursue her and fall in love with her
2) do so in a way that his gaurd would be down and her 'honor' would be protected (so she could pretend she wasn't to blame whenhis marriage ended)
3) THEN she was going to get him to marry (or else she'd dump him for another man
4) she would of course then 'accidently' get pregnant

Of course since the divorce would already be final, and she supposedly didn't cause the divorce, and my WXH was so in love with her that she was hoping he would bring up marriage... he would never think of her as the OW who destroyed his marriage and family.

When I tried to warn him that she probably had such a plan he literally laughed in my face and assured me she wasn't planning on him marrying her. (But in her case instead of falsely assuring my WXH that she had no agenda she was careful to never discuss her agenda with him. The OW in your case used the assure the married man she was no threat to his marriage approach instead.) He was SO confident that she did NOT expect him to propose to her as soon as the divorce was final that he even agreed to cancel the divorce that was to be final in 6 weeks and sign a year-long separation agreement with me instead - believing she wouldn't care. He was wrong. She had been secretly shopping for her ring and they had a huge fight because he'd delayed the divorce and her wedding (and her biological tock was ticking and she wanted babies ASAP).

Since it was only 6 weeks until the divorce was final when I learned about and started Plan A, I honestly believed it was too late, that the divorce would happen on schedule and the OW would win. I worried that the OW would be able to keep her non-chalant act up for 6 more weeks until the divorce was final. But she started acting jealous because I was allowing WH to come over again and daughters started having visitation with him again. And THEN WH signed the separaton agreement instead of the divorce papers. THAT is when the OW revealed her true agenda to my WH, the agenda she had all along.

She used the depth she had gotten her claws into him to rip him to shreds for the remainder of their affair. She threw other men in his face and eventually dumped him for another man. At some points he was SO weak and addicted to her he actually considered marrying her but she supposedly felt so 'hurt' and 'betrayed' by his getting back in contact with me and his daughters during Plan A that she couldn't 'forgive'... that plus once we went to court he had to start paying me a LOT more in support than he had when they were dating and then he got laid off from his job so she lost ALL interest in him. Apparently her plan was not merely to get married and have babies but to marry a man with lots of money to spend on HER.

WHEN you get it that the OW is indeed a danger to your marriage,
your marriage will have a chance to recover.

But you might be the type that has to learn it firsthand and can't learn from somebody else's experience.

Look your son in the eyes and imagine him with permanent scars from cutting himself, or going to visit him in the psychiatric ward at the hospital, or calling you 'kitty whipped' (my middle daughter said this to her WF because he was so pathetically being yanked around by the OW), or refusing to have anything to do with you anymore. Start taking this seriously for your son's sake.

Hi meremortal, that was a LONG one, worth thinking about. Thanks. A couple of things.....

A lot of your comments show stereotypical thinking. You might be right about the specific OW in my case, then again, maybe not. I FEEL as though you are not right, but I can see the possibility that you are. I'm glad you shared the experiences you had with your ex. They make me think long and hard about what my involvement with the OW meant. Thank you for your thoughts.

I think your motive for calling the OW in your case is different than my wife's. My wife has the OW's contact info (phone, email, postal address) and can get in touch with her whenever she wants to. The main reason she hasn't so far is that she has heard, just like I have, that it is not a good idea. But neither one of us knows why. Can someone please give me some rational reasons why she shouldn't? She doesn't want to call the OW to yell and scream at her; she just wants to understand her.

As my wife and I go through the process of recovery, the OW is one area that it is a mystery to my wife. In order for her to have a more complete picture of the affair, she wants to uncover that mystery. It's related to the issue of how much information should a WS share with the BS about the affair. My feeling is that my wife is entitled to know as much about the affair as she wants to know. And if contacting the OW is part of her need to know, then why does everyone say it's a bad idea?

Melody, you're a genius! You gave me a great idea! I'm going to call up the OW and invite her to meet my wife and I and the other guy for lunch. We'll get a room as you suggest, and we'll have a wonderful foursome. You're brilliant! Thanks a ton!

I knew you'd eventually come through with some solid advice. I just had to be patient.

Thanks sweetie! XOXOXOXO

brwmb...

If, God forbid, your wife were RAPED, would you need to call the rapist and ask him about technique? THAT is who the OW is to your wife...A rapist...

Your "emotional bond" with OW was not created in a real world setting...You didn't share a mortgage with her, see her with a vomiting/diarhhea virus, smell her morning breath etc...It did NOT consist of all of the things that a real life relationship does...There is no way for your wife to learn how to be your "fantasy partner"...There was NOT a REAL "emotional bond" with the OW...Can you see this at all?

Mrs. W

I call BS. Pretty much on this whole thread.

If you're for real, and I highly doubt it... your wife has some of her own issues to deal with (IF this is what she's really thinking.)

It's as if you enjoy the debate and you're making it up as you go. If I sensed one iota of remorse or guilt in your writings, it would be different. It's just not there.

I just don't believe you're authentic and believe that you're just playing us.

Send your wife here. What are you afraid of?

I was a BS... I would have JUMPED on a resource like this. Most people would.

By the way... what exactly do the letters stand for in your user name?

Brilliant analogy, Mrs W!

I'm thinking you may be on to something. It's hard to believe someone could REALLY be this clueless. Perhaps it's just another goof-off getting his jollies by engaging us all in the drama.

I was so right many edited posts ago.

"She doesn't want to call the OW to yell and scream at her; she just wants to understand her."

Send your BW here, we'll explain all about the OW to her plus give her all the info she needs to protect her marriage from OW.

OW has NOTHING to teach your BW of any value.

In case you haven't figured it out yet your OW is a wh*re for hire.

When you are divorced and remarried to this uh... lady, woman, gal... wh*re, will you make your kids call her mommy or can they stick with wh*re?

EXCELLENT POINTS Mrs WonderFUL!!!

But I suspect this WH doesn't care at all about his marriage.
He thinks this is all so funny.
IMHO he deserves whatever outcome he gets now.
His wife and son don't however, so hopefully he will send his wife here so we can help her at least.

Probably so.
There's some seriously sick people out there... sad.

The genuine posters here are like sitting ducks for the pro-adultery trolls who think this is all so funny.
Ah but we have to be careful not to say something nasty to them.
This is the most tempted I've been here to post something that would be edited... but I won't. (At least I don't think what I'm typing is too harsh UNLESS taken totally out of the context of this WH's crude and casual attitude.)

It just goes to show that the internet is just a tool that can be used for good or evil.

My WXH is a seriously sick dude, but even he isn't as sick as some of the trolls we see here. My WXH's sickness and spiritual battle is a private one he may never overcome. But he's not online at a site for helping people recover from adultery just to toy with them. My WXH is nowhere near that far gone.

If this guy really is a WH, not just a troll, then IMHO we should pray for his wife and son. Hopefully they will see him for what he is ASAP and start a new life without him.

You are welcome, I am SLOW but I am sure!! A word to the wise, though, ask OW to bring her cootie papers and make sure she has cleared her cootie check. Them little buggers can ruin a good time!

I HAVE shown my wife this website and she thinks it's a waste of time. She thinks reading books, going to counseling, and discussing things together is a better use of our time. She even wishes I wouldn't spend time and energy here, ..... time and energy that I could be focusing on her. She may have a point.

I'm starting to wonder. Nobody seems to be able to answer the question of why my wife should not contact the OW if she wants to. All I get is personal attacks and doubts about my sincerity. Hmmmmmm, if no one can answer that question, then maybe you really don't know why you believe what you believe. Interesting, .......

I guess if there's no answer to that question, maybe we should end this thread. My original question has been answered. People seem to be getting frustrated here. Posts are becoming more unproductive. I've learned a lot in the process, especially how to laugh at the puking smilies. Is it time to call it quits? If no one else has anything worthwhile to say, I think we should.

__________________

MrsWondering, if my wife was raped and SHE wanted to call the rapist in order to reach closure, then I'd say ok. And yes, I do realize the "emotional bond" I had with the OW was not real, it was a fantasy.

Princess, I am for real. Yes my wife does have issues, don't we all? I'm not making this up as I go, I'm just living and learning. I'm not playing you. I tried to send my wife here, even tried to get her to post, but she said no.

iam, love those pukies You're such a sweetie!

meremortal, I do care about my marriage. I don't think this is funny, ...... except iam's posts, ...... and sparring w/ Melody is kinda fun too, ....... but other than that, apart from the personal attacks, there's a lot of useful information here.

Melody, you're probably targeting me, but I'm not pro-adultery. .......and really? you almost posted something worth editing? Now THAT would make me smile! To think I almost got under that thick skin of yours that you told me I had to grow. Mmm, mmm, mmm. Thank you for your prayers. BTW, OW gets blood tests once a month, she's clean, don't worry.

I personally think it is a very bad idea for you or your W to contact the OW because it breaks the NC agreement.

If your W talks to OW, how will you feel? You'll want to know what they said, how things went. Your W will tell you, sure. But you'll want to hear OW's side of the story, too. It would be tempting to contact her *just about this*. Even if you don't contact her, it will put her in your thoughts again, and you don't need that.

It is a very bad idea to bring OW into your M in any way, shape or form. She absolutely, positively, has no business in your M at all.

Besides, any questions your W has are best answered by you.

If your W asks OW "What did you do that made him feel so special?" the OW may think it was one thing while you really appreciated something else entirely. YOU, and you alone, are the best judge of what makes you feel loved and special. Really, that's what it boils down to. OW was attractive because she made you feel special, wanted, admired, cared about. It's up to you to figure out why she made you feel that way, and tell your W.

Yes, your W has a right to ask about and understand the A. That information should come from you, and you alone. The OWs perception of the A is completely irrelevant. Her perception of your M is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that you and your wife examine the A, the whys, and what it meant to YOU.


Regarding her lunch - you owe it to your wife to openly and honestly tell her that it DOES bother you when she is alone with another man. You can't make her not see him, but you can kindly ask that she not, and tell her how it makes you feel when she does. Use an "I" statement to do this. An "I" statement begins with only observable, certifiable, measurable facts. No descriptive phrases or interpretation. Then the statement of how you feel. A good example would be "When you meet another man for lunch, I feel..." Bad examples would be "When you hang around that panting lecherous loser, it makes me feel..." or "Knowing you're looking forward to spending time with him makes me feel..."

Just the facts. Then the "I feel".

Hey fellow posters on MB, why would any of us respond to this?

Moi?? Getting edited?? NO WAY, baby! I am an angel!

I am glad to hear she has been cleared for cooties. Can you buy cootie killer over the counter at Walgreens, I wonder?

Turtlehead, where have you been? It's so nice to hear from you -- a voice of stability in the midst of chaos. Once again, you came through. What you said makes complete sense. I will print your post and have my wife read it. I think it will help her with her desire to contact the OW. We'll have to work on the process of me delivering information that she needs about the affair. I try to be open with her when she has questions, but it's not easy because it's something I'm ashamed of. It's easier to talk about it here in the anonymity of the internet than it is face-to-face with her. I've been vague in answering some of her questions because of that, and that's one of the reasons she mentioned wanting to talk with the OW. Thanks for your advice.

Regarding the lunch, she called me just a few minutes ago and said she decided not to have lunch with the other guy. She sensed this morning that I was not comfortable with it, and since things have been getting better between us lately, she didn't want to upset that. Thanks for the "I feel" advice. I will try to tell her how I felt this morning when I get home later.

Have a great day, and again, it was nice to hear from you. Take care.

Your BW can and is entitled to do whatever she wants. I don't see her making contact the same as you breaking the NC rule - if she really wants to do it.

The question is, what purpose will it serve? She won't get any honest answers from her - and even if she does she'll never know. Perhaps she wants to see what OW looks like - see if she's younger or more beautiful? What good will that do? If OW is younger and more beautiful it could hurt your BW more. If not, it will still leave her wondering what OW has that she doesn't. If she wants to hurt her - do some kind of damage to her face that leaves a scar, she'll go to jail. Honestly, I don't see how this would help her.

I knew that! Such a sweet, sweet angel you are. Muahhh!


Ok, ok, you win. I give up. Not going to answer that one!

Let's not forget the SOURCE of said "chaos" being your sociopathic-like posts, okay brwmb?

Why don't you tell us what you think OW could tell your wife that would possibly be helpful to your wife or your marriage? Since you are the one that painted the picture of yourself that you wanted OW to see, it seems to me that it should be YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to tell your wife anything that she asks...Your shame is NOTHING in the face of the great PAIN that you have caused your wife, so you best just knock off that "vague" crap right now...

Mrs. W

It's now starting to look to me like you want your wife and OW to clean up your mess while you sit there hiding behind "your shame"...Grow up, be a man, take responsibility and clean up your own messes brwmb...

Mrs. W

WHOOT!!!
(actually, I think it's spelled "WOOT" but I like mine better)

Be sure and tell your W how much you appreciate her consideration and care. And in the future, don't expect her to be a mind reader. She might not pick up on your feelings, and you might resent her for it. It's lots easier just to say "When you get all hot and excited about seeing that lowlife scumball perv monster in a private little back corner booth at an intimate restaurant, I feel...."

DO thank your wife. She broke an established tendency and pattern out of a desire to make things change in the marriage.

(I think she likes you)

Great insight.
She's seeking the information from an alternative source because she's frustrated and/or doubtful about getting the full scoop from you.

You have two jobs:
First, suck it up and be totally honest no matter how ashamed you are. If it's really bad, write it down and let her read it. Sometimes it's easier to write something than to make your voice say it out loud where the words hang in the air and echo in the silence.

Second, IF your wife is doing anything that makes it hard for you to be completely honest (getting angry, being judgmental or disrespectful) then kindly call her attention to it with one of those "I feel" statements. I don't think she's doing this or you would have mentioned it, but I bring it up just in case.

Who in the world, aside from "working girls", get blood tests once a month to check for STDs????

brwmb,
This is very very sad. You are HOOKED (pun intended) and are risking your marriage (not to mention yours and your wife's health) on a prostitute?

Good grief.

BTW: MB Membership, the only reason brwmb is writing about OW and his wife meeting is because then he gets to THINK ABOUT OW, who he is addicted to. The discussion is feeding his addiction.

Jo

ITA Jo!!!

Mrs. W

Yup. If there's any truth at all here.

Hi Turtlehead, thanks for your support. I printed your post and have it ready should the topic of my wife contacting the OW come up. I don't think I'll bring up the subject unless she does. A quote from Surviving an Affair:


I agree with that. It seems like everytime we talk about the affair or the OW, it brings up hurt and sorrow and sets us back somewhat. Unless my wife has questions or issues specifically related to the affair and/or OW that she needs answered, I want to avoid the subject for now.

Last night, while I was doing the dishes and my wife took the dogs for a walk -- yes, that's right, SHE took them for a walk. See? I AM trying to avoid triggering thoughts of the OW. Anyways, I was thinking about you and wondering why I get such different vibes from your posts than I do from others. I sense warmth and caring from you. From many others, I sense judgmentalism and cynicism. I haven't been on this forum long, but I get the sense that you are respected here. I wonder if others on this thread, who've made claims that I'm not sincere and that I'm just trying to get a reaction, feel that you have been duped by me. I hope YOU don't. I value your input tremendously. In fact, a feeling came over me last night that I wanted to share with you. I feel such a depth of concern and caring from you that it provides me with one more reason to work hard on my marriage. I feel that if my marriage ended, I'd be disappointed to tell you because you've tried so much to help me and you'd be sad. The thought I had was something like "if Turtlehead cares enough to help me as much as she has, then I just HAVE to make my marriage work. I have to work hard and make it work. I must do it." There's no guarantee that it WILL work, but your input gives me extra motivation to work on it. Thank you, and I hope that gives you a smile and makes your day just a little bit better.

My wife and I are headed out of town for a short trip this weekend -- no kids, no pets. We've got some books to discuss during the drive, and for the first time in quite a while, I'm actually looking forward to spending time with her. I can feel a connection between us starting to return. It's still not much of one, but it's better than it has been in a long time, and it's a step in the right direction. Thank you is not enough, but it's all I can offer right now. You've helped me, us, more than you probably realize.

Have a nice weekend. Take care.

" I feel that if my marriage ended, I'd be disappointed to tell you because you've tried so much to help me and you'd be sad. The thought I had was something like "if Turtlehead cares enough to help me as much as she has, then I just HAVE to make my marriage work. I have to work hard and make it work. I must do it."

It seems like to me you are buttkissing Turtle here so as to hide the fact that all you say is just a big story and you are mentally unstable and are playing us, big time, on MB.

BR:

This MB stuff takes time.

It doesn't happen overnight. AND it works both ways.

Some of the harsh posts to you are the 2x4's that folks get for "stinkin' thinkin'" Surprisingly enough, even BS's get them when they don't respond as quickly either.

And your thread title is pretty offensive off the bat, so, that doesn't put some of the posters into a good mood.

If you want Turtlehead to be your accounatability partner, theres nothing wrong with that. If she has a way of posting to you that makes sense, and you get going down the road to were you really need to be, then that works well. Others who want you to RUN down that road, instead of you walking, well, that's thier issue to deal with.

Otherwise, you just scared Turtlehead silly and she will never post to you again. But I guess thats up to her.

Enjoy your weekend. All the Harley books are available on CD, and you can listen to them as you drive as well.

One last thing:

Answer your W's questions about the affair. Don't hold back. You want to get closer to your W? Then answer her questions. EVEN IF it makes you uncomfortable. Especially if it makes BS uncomfortable. Because she will not get COMFORTABLE until you have answered any questions that she might have. ANd that can take awhile. Months even.

LG

Hi lousygolfer, thanks for your thoughts. I tried changing the thread title but couldn't find a way. I see your point, and in hindsight, I shouldn't have used such an unrepentant title. Looks like it's too late to do anything about it now.

I don't know why you said I might have scared Turtlehead off. She's been a great help, and all I wanted to do was let her know that and express thanks to her.

"I don't know why you said I might have scared Turtlehead off"

1. You kissed her butt EXTREMELY

2. You made it sound like you had a personal relationship with her. This is only an anonomous message board.

3. You buttered her up EXTREMELY like a stalker would or an unstable person.

4. There is no reason that you would change your marriage so drastically or imediately merely by someone's posts on a message board. Or the fact a faceless poster appeared to care. So you are being quite phoney...

5. Your story is implausable. And now you are trying to act as if you actually KNOW Turtle. That is scary.

6. Turtle may not be bothered by any of this but I would be.

" I tried changing the thread title but couldn't find a way. "

You can change the title but the gist and meaning of your posts and your "interesting story" still comes thru.

A pig with lipstick is still a pig.....after all.

Show your wife what you said to turtlehead...As a wife myself, if I read that my husband had written anything like that to a female I would NOT like it...It felt creepy to me-inappropriately familiar and intimate...This is something that you should look at brwmb...You have inappropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex...I can see very clearly how you got into the affair with the OW...It is very important that you see this too...

Reading that stuff to turtlehead from you makes me suspect that you derive your own value through others and what they think of you (therefore you feel that you need to give others that you like that kind of admiration because you automatically assume that they need that as well - this is a NO NO with members of the opposite sex when you are married!)...I do understand this, as I was an "admiration junkie" for years myself...Soaring or plummeting based on the opinions of others...Does this make sense to you?

Don't get me wrong, admiration is a legitimate need, but it can't be what you use to determine your own self worth...You need healthy boundaries...

Mrs. W

Yup. My feeling as well.

See what I mean by cynicism and judgmentalism?

Your statements are full of false assumptions about my motives.

"Thanks" was my motive.

Turtlehead, sorry if I scared you off. Didn't mean to. Just meant to thank you. That's all.

Well alrighty then...Just keep doing what you have been doing, that has worked out so nicely for you thus far...sigh...

Mrs. W

Btw, just saying "THANKS" would have been an appropriate way to interact with turtlehead...

Mrs. W

Ok, let's concede and start from the assumption that your motive was to "Thank Turtlehead".

The way you went about it is creepy and too intimate. And too much buttkissing. Now, if you do not see that and see how you come across, and have insight into your own personality, then it is no wonder you have problems with people.

but then, you know that.... right?

You know what REALLY galls me here? That you'd like your wife to be in contact with OW to "teach" her how to have an "emotional bond" with you...You've even got your wife convinced that she needs to do this!!! Instead of seeing YOURSELF as the PROBLEM!!! Because brwmb, make no mistake about it, the problem lies with YOU...Sure, you and your wife share in the responsiblity for the state of the marriage PRE-AFFAIR but ONLY you, good sir, have any responsibility in this ridiculous [fake] "emotional bond" w/ OW that you keep harping about.

Then when anyone comes in and points out just what in YOU might be the problem you call it "judgmentalism" and "cynicism"...Which, you should note, that that, in and of itself, is you being JUDGMENTAL...

When you are ready to get serious about looking at yourself, let us know, we'll be here...

Mrs. W

Mrs W, don't get your panties in a bunch. My belief is that this posters whole story, the whole line of bull, is fake.


What man wants his woman to meet another man? No man! Everything seems fake to me.

I hear ya Stella ...Hopefully if he isn't fake something will get through and his poor BW won't have to endure more of what he is shoveling...If he IS fake, then perhaps other lurking WSs might just get something they need out of the posts on his thread, which may motivate them to do the right thing...

Mrs. W

Hi Stellakat, I guess you're right, .... sort of. I honestly did not think I was coming across too intimately.

Interestingly, I only seem to have problems with people on THIS forum. I get along great with most people in real life and people on other forums. It's puzzling to me that it is only THIS forum that I seem to rub people the wrong way. Many of the posters here make me feel the problem is ME. Maybe I got started off on the wrong foot with the original post and never recovered. It seems that it has been mostly downhill ever since. There have been a few people on here who genuinely seem to care, and Turtlehead was one of the most caring. I think it was the HUGE contrast I felt between her posts and many of the others that led me to want to express heartfelt thanks.

It just seems that no matter what I say here, it gets shot down. It's like I have a permanent case of "foot in mouth" whenever I'm here.

But thanks anyways for explaining it to me.

Well yes brwmb, the problem IS with you - surely you don't think the problem is your wife, right? You are the one that had the affair, so that makes it pretty obvious as to where the problem is...I know the problem lies within you, because I too am the one that had the affair in my marriage...I've walked that road, taken the 2x4s, learned and CHANGED...We are asking you to look at YOU...Are you ready to do that?

Mrs. W

What an interesting turn of events.

If StellaKat's posting style offends you, put her on Ignore.
(I picked her simply because your post was a reply to hers)

If everyone's take on this offends you, it's time to ask yourself why "everyone" is so hard on you. Re-read the posts line by line, without a defensive reaction, and asking yourself if there could be a kernel of truth in what they have said. Line by line. It's too easy to dismiss an entire paragraph. Consider the sentence. Why did the person take the time to write that to you?

You respond to men and women in very different styles here, and it's logical to assume that extrapolates into real life. I think you would benefit from examining carefully the language (verbal and non-verbal) you use with women vs. men.

Re-read what you wrote to me, since it's caused such a ruckus.

If you find yourself making ANY excuses, such as "But I only meant..." or "That was just innocent..." or "It's just a figure of speech..." or "She took that the wrong way" then it's time to practice new communication skills with women.

Whether or not you "mean something" with what you say is not the point. The point is how it could possibly be construed by others.

If you're serious about changing at this point, maybe it's time for you to make an entirely new thread. Personally, I would recommend linking the old thread both for honesty and convenience.

If you proceed with your own changes, and in one year go back and re-read what you originally wrote, you will be hard-pressed to believe you could have said something like that.

Bwhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa




Are you that used to being enabled? LMAO!!!!!!!!!

People on this forum are very difficult to fool aren't they. Guessed you picked the wrong forum to give up honesty eh?

You ARE the problem son - and you picked the wrong forum if you are looking for enablement of your foggy thinking.

You are the only one responsible for how you feel. Stop blaming everyone for YOUR feelings.

If you feel sad, who is responsible? Your wife?

If you feel happy, who is responsible? The OW?

Why is it how you feel everyone else's responsibility but your own?

Man up and start taking responsibility for yourself. Its what adult people do.

God Bless.

Jo