Most of you know I'm engaged to get married.

Well, I just got totally nailed on my independent behavior. I didn't think I was making decisions all by myself. I feel just awful. Part of the problem is I'm not sure which decisions I can make on my own, and which I need his input for. Some are obvious, like where we live, jobs, ect. Others are less obvious. In the fall, my furnace was on the blink. After the repair man had been out for the second time in December we talked about getting a furnace in the spring. After another service call, I changed my mind, and got a new one right away. According to M, this was independent behavior, although he admitted it was my house and my money.

The most recent event was when I announced yesterday that I had ordered the party favors for the wedding. Now, I know we had talked about them briefly, and I thought we had an agreement. I was obviously wrong.

So I'm wondering if anyone has spelled out what stuff is okay to decide on one's own and what stuff needs the spouse's enthusiastic agreement to forge ahead.

I'm painting the girls' rooms now. They chose the colors with my input. Should I have asked him for his agreement?

I'm getting a little sick over this. What if I can't do marriage???

We have this problem in my family. Often, when a topic is discussed once or mentioned in passing, one person will think the issue was resolved and the other can't even remember the discussion.

My x is terrible at remembering we even discussed something. His wife has called him on this - in front of the children - when he flat out refused to hear what I was saying in response to a question I asked him.

And my teenagers, well, like they understand good communication. Sometimes, I think they must have mentioned it to me while I was listening for funny rattles in the car or something....I know I heard this topic mentioned but I KNOW I never agreed to do whatever they proposed.

So, there could be a difference in what you consider discussing it and what your fiance considers discussion to a resolution.

Therefore, I think the situation bears further discussion between the two of you. What is 'not listening'? What is 'an agreement'? What is good communication? What is independent behavior?

Am I being clear?

I agree. I'm not sure if we can discuss "not listening." That may tread a little close to a DJ. it's also difficult to know whent to talk about stuff. M's pretty stressed at the end of the day, so weekends are better. I know he doesn't like dinner time for relationship discussions. LOL. He'll have to figure out a time he does like to talk.

What do you think about ending a discussion by saying "So, it sounds like we agree that we'll do x,y,z." I do this via email with my X. X and I often talk at cross-purposes, and we're getting older, so it's good to have it in writing. Gosh, X is turning 59 this year!

GG, don't sweat it! If I can overcome my lifelong habit of IB, anyone can!! And believe me, it was hard. Some of the things you mentioned are your decisions to make, ie: painting your girls room, but when you are married, you would want to POJA such things.

I was the head of the household and made every decision in my last marriage. My H could not have cared less what color the walls were. But my new H is the exact opposite. He thinks he is entitled to have an opinion on every thing! I couldn't believe it! I could spend all day here telling about our trials and tribulations involving my IB, which resulted in his AO. But I will just tell you that I had to learn to stop it and once you get in the habit, it just comes naturally.

Dr. Harley told us to learn POJA in the grocery store. We had to enthusiastically agree about everything that went into our shopping cart. The first time was a disaster which led to me storming out of the store in a rage, but we just did it all over again until we got it right.

Dr. Harley told my H that "she thinks she is entitled to get her way and has been this way for a long time." UGH! Very true. Accepting that I have no such entitlement, EVEN ABOUT DECORATING, was a hard pill to swallow. But it led to marital peace in our home and I am glad we learned this lesson.

So, don't sweat it. Print out the article on POJA and just start practicing!

We've practiced it about the gardening. M has moved in now so that we can sell his house in Chesapeake City. Anyway, we both like to garden, but have radically different philosphies. M's sort of an instant gratification guy. So, I think we came to a compromise, but because it wasn't his way, he may have thought it was mine. It wasn't mine either. The next time we planted stuff, we did it a little bit better. More POJA. We placed all the stuff where we agreed, then I planted it when he was at work. I think he likes it.

My X wouldn't POJA anything, and I had to engage in some IB in order to survive. If I tried to negotiate, he had to "win." B still doesn't get the win/win negotiating. I have to ask for the moon in order to get something reasonable. Now that I know this, I'm very unreasonable in my demands, then we come to an agreement and it's usually fair. B just likes to win arguments, negotiations, everything.

Back to fiance... I think we'll come to blows if we have to POJA the food store. I'm not going to be enthusiastic about potato chips. He's not going to be enthusiastic about my musculean greens. I can see how you would tear out of the store in a rage.

just say i'll let you have your chips without making you feel guilty if you let me have my greens without calling me a health freak... agreement made

Ok, I am enthusiastic about my H getting to eat what he wants even though I might not choose it. [I am a health nut, he is not] He is a grown man, so I am enthusiastic about him having the right to make that choice and am not his momma. So, it makes me happy to see him happy throwing Twinkies in the cart. See, your partner doesn't have to EAT what you like, he just has to agree to purchase it. My H says nothing when I pick sugar free yogurt as long as it is not the most expensive kind even though he thinks it tastes nasty.

Our problem is that I just throw what I want in the cart and he is extremely FRUGAL.[he is a tightwad ] The notion of buying pre bagged lettuce at $2.99 when you can buy a head of [nutritionally void] lettuce for $.89 is a SIN to him. He is horrified and I am equally horrified at having to eat HEAD LETTUCE! That was our first fight. So we eventually found something that made us both happy: store brand bagged romaine that is only $1.59! That is how we POJAed that. Now, when we buy lettuce, we automatically go to that. So it gets easier and easier. Once you get through the first few months of this, you automatically know what the other will agree to.

Ha Ha Melody, you remind me of an ongoing "difference of opinion" Wstbx and I had over the course of our marriage. He was the cheapskate and insisted we buy in bulk. I was fine with that for most things but there were some exceptions. One was mayonaisse - I was the only one in the family who used it and very infrequently. Even a small jar would expire before it was finished. But for 50 cents more, you can get a honkin' giant jar so guess what we usually had. The worst thing about the giant jar was that it was too big for my hands. Twice I dropped it smashing it over the floor. Both times we had a HUGE argument over it - wouldn't have happened with the small jar. And not to mention, it took up so much room in the fridge - wouldn't fit on the door.

Anyway, it wasn't what broke us up (or was it?) but it's funny how food fuels these kinds of fights.

Wow, this is a hard topic. I guess one thing to do is to agree on a price limit where one of you can buy something without approval of the other. Above that line, it has to be POJA.

Food is always an issue. My wife would go to the store and never consider getting the store brand. She grab the apples that looked the best and never even look at the price. She has compromised some, and I've gotten less stingy, but we still differ.

Is it possible to separate some responsiblities, and allow for some IB? I mean, can the husband have one room the way he want's it while the wife has her own? Can you have two separate gardens? Obviously, you need to have most things joint, but is it ok to have some things separate?

As for decorating, I learned that my wife is better at it then I am. I've learned some from her, but she has better style and a better sense of color then I do. So when we paint a room, she picks the color and I do the painting.

Specifically about the furnance, that probably would have bothered me a little. Since he is coming in to your established family, I would imagine he's trying to figure out where he fits in. Does he get to do the traditional men's work, that you've been taking care of? The girls rooms probably not a big deal, but I would imagine he wants to be a part of parenting. One issue I had a big problem with was eating in the car. I was against the kids eating in the car, but I had no say in it because eating in the car was already established before I even was in the picture.

I guess I'm saying that separate from IB, your finance may need to know that you have a useful place for him in your already established family.

I'm gonna follow this closely. I think IB was the single largest contributing factor to the demise of my M. A lot of the issues that the XW and I ended up happening came as a result, I think, of our IB.

I take responsibility for cultivating and encouraging that behavior. My FOO issues I guess. My mom and dad split was I was little and dad contributing almost nothing to my upbringing. My mom went from a SAH, to working in a grocery store. She spent 20 years there before retiring and I don't think that she ever made more than $24K in a year. Money was always tight and I determined when I was still young that if/when I got married, it would be to an independent woman who didn't need to rely on me. That should something ever happen to me, she'd be able to take care of the family without letting the children sacrifice.

It never occurred to me that by encouraging her to do her own thing, while I did mine, I was hastening the failure of the M.

Green - I don't think that you can use specific tactics to overcome this potential issue. Stuff like ending conversations in a very specific manner, or setting hard limits on independent expenditures won't address the underlying issue.

Something I read here a long time ago made sense to me, though it might be easier said than done:
"For every decision I make, I need to ask one additional question: 'Does this benefit or harm the marriage?'".

I wonder if we can remain mindful of that question and apply it to every circumstance where a choice is made. Even if it conflicts with our more immediate wants or needs.

How ridiculous!! Course, Harley's answer to this would be that the big jar should not have been purchased because you don't enthusiastically agree.

But I suspect your XH is alot like mine and I told Dr Harley it was RIDICULOUS to fuss over a $2.99 bag of lettuce when we could well afford it and he said that didn't matter! He said my H's objection was probably "emotional" but that his wishes should be respected. okokok..

The big surprise to me is how ingenious POJA really is when it is applied to a marriage. It completely changed the tone of our marriage! For example, when I engaged in IB, it would bring out lovebusters from my H, like angry outbursts. His AO brought out DJs from me. Those have all gone away! He is much more relaxed and loving and no longer has resentments about my behavior.

I guess I don't see it as independent behavior when it's your house and your money and you aren't married.

Unless you are living together I don't see how he would have a dog in the fight.

I don't POJA things that have to do with MY house just like My Guy doesn't POJA things that has to do with HIS house.

We live independent....we act accordingly....independent in household matters.

I know best for my house, he knows best for his.

Just a differing opinion offered.

committed

I know I am WAYYY over on the independent side. But my husband LOVES it!

He likes it when i get things done around the house. I usually tELL him when I am going to make a big purchase or we decide furniture together or how big a deck we want, etc, but it is all my money paying for it usually so I have a lot of say and he lets me have that.

Vacations are another thing, we really have to POJA those since it is hard to get my husband to travel at all.

If he liked to travel, it would not be so difficult to POJA those trips. The few trips a year we do go on, like ONE trip a year.

I have no other information for you but I wonder why the man has the audacity to tell you what to do with YOUR furnace when YOU are paying for it.

I hope you are getting these things way before the wedding:

1. A prenup
2. Independent savings and checking accounts
3. A budget you both develop together
4. Independent investments
5. Independent credit and credit cards.
6. A good financial plan you both agree on.

This could be an early warning of things to come, if you tweak the things a bit now you could prevent further problems from even arising!

Even if you are deeply in love, and especially when you are in love, you do not want money and power issues to cloud the upcoming marriage.

That is why a wonderfully worded prenup is so extremely important. It cuts thru all the crap and lays it all out there. Then, after he signs it, you two can relax and enjoy your love and your marriage.

I see a few minor red flags that could be wiped out with the prenup and separate accounts. We have both and it has saved and enhanced our marriage. Also, the power balance in the relationship stays BALANCED and fair which is very very healthy.

Please protect yourself and your marriage here! (This time!)

I am definitely high on the IB scale too.

Well GG, did you do a prenup or not?

Another friend is getting married tonight (8/8/08) and they did not do a pre-nup. 2nd marriage each, 2 kids each. I think they are a great fit and I still think a pre-nup is a good idea.

First, the pre-nup. M and I have discussed it. I had a pre-nup before, and it stood me in good stead. However, it also prejudiced me against them. Instead of a pre-nup we are arranging life insurance and our wills in such a way that it will take care of my children without leaving him high-and-dry. It also helps that M will come into the marriage with more assets than me. In time, I will most likely inherit some assets, but that's in the future.

I think the furance was thrown into last night's arguement as an after thought to support his theory of a trend. M's in finance so he likes to see trends. So, we had furnace, tuition, invitation, and party favors as the trend. M even said last night that the furnace was my deal. And don't anyone ask what it was about the wedding invitation. I egregiously violated POJA on that one. I really can't afford to lose any more points. Actually, right now, we should probably turn our attention to how I can make this up to him. I need to deposit some points asap.

Oh, and we are keeping separate accounts although we're calling the money "ours." We also have a joint account. We've had full disclosure on financial matters at this point.

An interesting take on using insurance/wills and likely trusts instead of a pre-nup.

I wish you the best on the upcoming wedding and marriage. You've done the work to make it wonderful.

My friend worded the wedding invite:
Her kids names & his kids names invite you to the marriage of their parents . ..

It was very sweet. You've met this friend of mine, GG.
And the 3 D'd moms I know are all marrying guys with the same name. No kidding. So I'm out looking for M's.

Enjoy the weekend.

LOL, Newly. If I hear of one in your neck of the woods, I'll send him along.

Hi GG, I hope all is well.

I too have been accused of IB. My suggestion would be to talk with M. Ask him what he feels ought to be joint decisions. Ask him to help you set up parameters for what needs discussing before either of you act. You might find his involve certain areas while your concerns would involve others.

As for making this situation better, apologize and fix him a nice dinner, get him his favorite beer/wine/soda, and be your sweet self.

Good ideas, Nams. How are you, btw??? How's the pottery?

As for the dinner, I'll do that, but I'm thinking I need to shower because there may be some more active stuff. Wish I had time to run to Victoria's Secret.

Gosh! What if I have to POJA VS once I'm married?