Okay Mike, we all understand the feelings you are drowning in right now. For me, it's the old "been there, felt that, done that" sort of understanding.

Let me ask you about one small part of this post, as it may give me some direction in responses to you.

You mentioned "pastor" as one of the people in her life.

Can you tell me what role her pastor plays in her life?

Is a faith in Christ a part of her life, your life? Just how does faith impact the two of you and your attitudes toward sin and forgiveness?

You will be getting a lot of advice about the "MB way" of doing things, but I want to spend a little time on the spiritual side of what you are going through, IF you think that would be appropriate.

God bless.

God, I just had the all-time classic D-2 talk I've seen here a million times.

1. Always felt our lifestyles are different, wanted a simple life, not my upscale social life.

2. Went and saw OM this AM, he told her he is reconciling with his wife and they can't see each other anymore.

3. She is sad about it -- clearly would go with him. Has feelings, in a "perfect world would be together."

4. To JL (I think it was) Yes, she is very spiritual, works at the church as a volunteer, runs the food bank, etc.

5. She has been withdrawn fo9r many years, but it is hard to read because that is sort of her nature, very quiet. We still were having regular sex and she initiated it at times.

6. Says the affair sparked 4 months ago after a friendship. Claimed 3 times physical. That is what the OM said too and I bluffed him out of it by saying she told me 20. He settled on 10.

7. They work together....as we know that has to change, but since she has no interest in saving the marriage, she doesn't care what I say I guess.

8. Made one little comment about liking being alone, "but maybe that is not possible". So, gee, that's encouraging. :-(

So, she is in love with this guy "has feelings" her heart is broken that he is reconciling with his wife, she never felt we were a match, not a word of encouragement for the future, seemed a little bummed I was back.

That was fun !!!

Did you expose to her/their boss? They may say it's off, but it's always possible they won't be able to stay away from each other.

I just talked to the OM for almost an hour.

His wife is adamant no contact, they can't work together, so my wife says she is quitting her part time job.

He gave her the "no contact" call this AM (she called him)

I told him I had a computer log that would make his wife leave him forever (bluff), I was a computer expert, and if I saw a text or an email or a cell phone record or smoke signal I was going to nuke his marriage.

Effective, since he started bawling his eyes out.

Also said they were together 6 or 7 times and quit in June. Both of them had initially said 3 times, so it could be a cover story, but who cares, I guess.

Wow. Sorry, Mike. It is tough. All I can say is your wife must be in the fog or she's never lived "the simple life." I grew up fairly priviliged, and now am solidly middle class. It's takes a while to realize that you have to change your lifestyle.

So, how do you assess the health of the marriage based on the previous 5 or so years? How happy have you been?

One knee-jerk reaction is to divorce the witch. Another knee-jerk reaction is to fight for what's yours, whether you want it or not.

Avoid the knee-jerk reactions.

You will survive this. I believe either way, your life will be better after you get through this mess. It doesn't happen instantly, but it does happen. From what I remember, you're a pro-active, positive, man. In the end, I think you'll triumph.

Editted to add: I know I wasn't listed on the approved poster list, so just let me know if you don't want me to post.

Okay Mike, you have effectively exposed and nuked the affair and ended it. It is over...at least with THAT particular OM.

The responses from your wife are what I would have "expected" and "predicted" from a WS who ended the affair because it was exposed and the OP chose to "show the true colors" and stopped "using" your wife for "his needs." It was no longer "convenient."

Been there, Mike.

Now the question, and the "ball," remains in your court...hidden under the pile up of emotions and thoughts banging off of every corner of your mind....

Do you want to remain married to your wife if it is possible to overcome this monumental problem and rebuild and recover your marriage, making it something "better" than it was? Is it too early to answer that question? If it is too early, JL's earlier advice to make NO permanent decisions at this time would apply.

I also asked about your faith and you didn't give a direct answer, talking only about your wife's involvement in "church related activities." So let me be more direct before posting anything along the lines of "faith based advice."

Are you, and is your wife, a believer in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

If not, I do not wish to present any advice based upon Scripture.

If yes, then obviously what God has to say about all of this IS important, as well as the MB "to do" lists of things.

God bless.

Mike,

I remember you from when I first lurked around MB years ago. So I searched some of your old posts. You were pretty good, actually. Which makes me think this is where some of your initial fight and flight reaction came from. For example:

You were hornswaggled as well as betrayed… Made to look the fool, even on MB.

Anyway, your wife reminds me of mine. Remote, not so much cold and indifferent as just usually more or less elsewhere.

Is FS one of your wife’s top ENs too? I have found meeting this particular EN, even in the extreme as you and I have done, does not prevent adultery in the least. It’s like maybe it is not really a true EN. Marrying for the money maybe.

I wanted to second the thoughts of some here that perhaps you need to prepare yourself to discover the past 10 years are not what you thought they were. This happened to me. Those 10 years of distance were a low intensity VLTA.

Re something else JL said:

> “I think you have had a lot of good advice. I do want to reemphasize that you need to be there for the kids. They need your guidance, your strength, and your wisdom NOW. Having a kegger underage is NOT good.

What would have happened if one of the kids at the party ended up driving drunk and got injured or worse? It would be on your son's conscience for the rest of his life, not to mention a possible police record.”

You as in you personally, could be sued directly.

And what comes after beer with teens?

Your children really need you now. They may not want or need her right now, but they sure need you.

My wife left for almost six months after D-Day 2 of the VLTA and DS acted out quite a bit too. Then he went into a melancholy/situational depression from which he is only now coming out of. And he still does not trust his mother much. They have no true relationship.

> “But, someone that has no feelings, does not respond to a spouses effort to improve the marriage and then has an affair, would concern me more deeply. Something else is in the mix and that something may be so intrinsic to her nature that nothing can make it better.”

I think the same. Well, since I have lived it I probably would. She is not going to change any time soon, probably not ever, methinks. So be prepared.


I can’t help but chuckle at this. I heard the same things. OM almost crapped his pants and begged when I confronted him – and I was not bluffing in the least with anything I had or would do.

I’m sure you realize the half dozen times number is pure unadulterated adultery. They are saying whatever they think you will believe. They will continue to do so, for sure.

BTW, I recommend a hardcopy NC letter. With a registered copy to OM’s BW. Makes it much more tangible and real for all three of them. And you can keep a copy for later if you need it.


I will pray for you and your family,

PS: I applaud your massive exposure and for confronting OM. Less is not always more.

Let's see.....I'm at the office now, she calls and says "I'm making a big family dinner"

WTF? (What the fog?)

I'm like, "Thanks, but I'll be taking care of my own meals" then I called my son and he blew right by her to come down here for sinner.

Now....I know that is anti-Plan A. But after her little D-2 speech today I don't have it in me. I've been civil and even somewhat friendly at home today, but I also don't want to fall into some sort of "everything is fine except Daddy is sleeping upstairs and Mommy is sleeping downstairs" BS.

My chair can be empty at these family dinners for awhile...

LOL, Freudian, for sure.

Do you need to start a Plan B letter already? Do you know if you care yet?

Don't cut off your nose to spite her face.

With prayers,

Plan B?

Well, as best I can tell the affair is over. I talked to the OM for a long time and he wants nothing to do with it and I know his wife is very serious about it and will be watching him like a hawk. My wife is quitting the school where they work.

Mikey

It's OK for you to delay a decision right now.

You will probably change your mind more than a dozen times in the coming months.

Do you go to a gym?

Working out is a great way to offset the stress - take your son out with you and go punch some bags at a gym - together.

Pep

I got a bag at home I'd like to punch. Right in the teeth.

Mike,

A correction is needed here. You said
Nope, that would be "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot". Your at war my friend.

It seems to me ,given her talk, perhaps it would be best if SHE left for awhile, and you stayed in the house with the kids. Afterall, the life style you are providing doesn't suit her. Let her leave and select accomodations that please her more.


You are not in plan A for a simple reason. You haven't decided if you want to remain married. Right now the jist of what you are saying is that you don't. That's cool. But, as many have said you will probably yo-yo a fair amount on that one.

It is really HER chair that should be empty for dinner. It is really you and the kids that should be together.

I know most of what she said is typical fog, and most if not all of it will clear in time. But, you have not answered the questions.

Were you happy in this marriage before this affair?

Do you have it in you to fight for your marriage again?

Here is one you cannot answer: Is she willing to fight for the marriage?

You will receive the answers to these questions as time goes on.

Have you gone to see a lawyer yet? What are the laws in your state?

I think you should continue to be civil, but resolute in seeking out what is best for you. Divorce is NOT best for the kids, but living with a parent they don't respect is no bowl of cherries either.

Hang in the Mike.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I have a sister that doesn't believe in spanking. So she would punish her children with a "timeout" and make them sit somewhere for a period of time (hour or so). But, to make sure they did this, she sat near them. Which always seemed to me like she was punishing herself and not so much the kids. She explained that sitting there was not much of a punishment because she read. And she made sure the kids read. The kids loved to read.

Are you seeing where I might have thought she missed the point of punishment?? :RollieEyes:

Not eating dinner punishes who? Make sure you endeavors to show her your disapproval don't punish yourself. The word is out. All agree including your kids that she is wrong very wrong. All realize that you are deeply hurt, so there is no need for actions that reinforce this. If the sight of her turns your stomach, then don't eat with her. If you are hungry, and there is food on YOUR TABLE PAID FOR BY YOU, then I would say eat it...Right after your taster OK's it.

Think about it.

As in your love for your wife is dissipating very fast. Do you want to protect what little is left.

Especially with the things she is saying to you now. Not that they all don't say that stuff more or less. But yours, like, mine, was this way for so long they have become who they really are. Takes a klieg light to help them see anything about the future.

I bet you a donut she will try to contact him soon. Be prepared. I keep saying that, don’t I.

With prayers,

Dude, thanks for the great post. Gives me something to chew on between crying jags.


Plan A would be assault right now.

Remind me here....she just broke off contact with OM this AM. Isn't she going to be in withdrawal for a while and basically be left alone? Didn't I read three weeks or something?


Again, if there is a way to do it, throw me ideas. She sat there glued to the couch while the entire family, including her 14 year old daughters, screamed at her. She got there an hour before the locksmith.


Well....I'd say yes, but after 20 years your standards fog. My top ENs are SF and AS, and she is a fox and had no problem with SF (maybe not the wildest lover, but hey, gorgeous body 5'"6, 108, model, looks 32-33 at 45). Unbelievable housewife and mother, never sat down all day. No conflict, no real arguments....and, I guess, no passion, no deep emotional ties...

So, yes, I was in love, even with the missing elements.


Dude, it's been 48 hours. I don't have it in me to keep lunch down.


I don't think so.


It's a no fault state. Aside from that, not sure about specifics.


YES! My son and I are snarling because she has paid no price, right back, Monday housewife, Tuesday adultress, Thursday housewife. The daughter's forgive and forget and its back to compuuters and TV. I don't think my son will ever even treat her civilly.

What do you suggest?? I outed her big time and the whole family went nuts. she is just very resolute. "I'm sorry, I haven't been happy for years, it went too far" said in a dry eyed monotone....


Well, this is a weird one. She gives love through acts of service (isn't that the Harley term?). Between that and her desire to return to normalcy, a "family dinner" makes sense. So not showing up is definitely a snub and a punishment.

About an hour ago she came to me and almost pleaded to have the family dinner tomorrow night. I told her I'm not ready for that and I'll handle my own meals. She continued to plead -- family, family, family...That's how important it is to her.

That said, should I being doing it "for the kids?" Obviously their world was rocked.

Hey, it occurs to me, JL, what have we know each other....nine years? That long?

What really caught my attention here in your post is getting her out of the house, and "punishment".

What are your thoughts, short of assault? Like I said, I had the locksmith scheduled and she slipped in an hour early.

One minor bit of punishment.....when WW went down to bed just now, I took my daughters and had them sleep on the floor in my bedroom, which we all did the night of DD.

You should give yourself as much time as you need. You can spend a lot of other time with the kids to reinforce 'family' when she's not around.

Are you saying the girls are ok now? That they've moved on and are back to normal activities? That's scary to me. One because they can't possibly be ok yet, which means they're internalizing it - bad thing to do. And two because if they're telling themselves it's not that big a deal, in order to be ok with their mom, it seems like it might be reinforcing to them that it's ok to have affairs, so they might follow in her footsteps when they grow up. Just something to consider.

My daughters are like the queens of internalization. And you are right, they are seeing no punishment or repercussions whatsoever for my wife.

My son says if she doesn't get out for a week I should tell her I'm filing for custody of the kids based on adultery and her bringing the guy around.

Rather than change the locks, I'm thinking of swiping her housekey, waiting until she goes out, and putting her luggage outside.

Mike,

I don't think you should punish her at all. That does not mean I don't think she should pay a price. I just don't know what it should be, do you???

I asked
You answered
That is the point isn't it? It has only been 48 hours. How the heck do you know if you have the strength yet. Given what you mentioned you found out on your newest post, I am sure you have less strength now.

You asked how to get her out of the house, I would suggest asking her to leave for awhile which is in fact what you have done.

I would definitely caution you to keep your son out of the middle of it. I know he is 17, and at such an age there is very little he doesn't know. But, he doesn't know what you know, nor has he learned what you have over the years. I also appreciate he is very angry. Is there someone outside of the family he can talk to? He really needs this stuff handled before school starts. It is really bad if he goes through life hating his mother. Kids need both of their parents for different reasons.

I suspect your girls are horrified, but naturally gravitate toward your W. At their age they will not appreciate what she has done, nor understand the depth of your pain. With any luck neither of them will ever have to live through this.

You also said and asked Yup, it has been awhile Mike.

You are worrying about punishing her, but you are beating a dead horse really. Her feelings are focused on herself and her "love" of OM. You are wasting your time. However, what she doesn't realize is that she has damaged the family very deeply whether you stay or go. I know it seems odd for me to be preaching to get your son to counseling or something so that he can have a relationship with his mother, when clearly she never worried about the repercussions of what she did. But, this is about your son not her.

I am not one for shows other none productive approaches. However, if you cannot eat with her, then don't. You need to be there for the kids to talk to. You need to be there to help them through this. You don't have to be there for dinner.

Do you get my meaning???

Is there someone there that you can talk to about all of this? Your pastor, a good counselor, perhaps the Harley's? This is tough stuff Mike, and it is better to go through it with real live people if you can.

Hang in there. I suspect things will become clear. Focus on the kids, getting them help, and focus on the things your can control: your actions, how you treat the kids, your job, and listening to the folks around you. I think now would be a good time to listen to the people you have exposed to and get their take on it. Their advice may be all over the map, but as you listen, as your W does whatever it is she does, you will gradually gather the information you need to make a decision.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL,

Mr son is already talking with our pastor, it was his initiative, too. He is an incredibly mature and wise kid, and also very conservative and Christian. He will not forgive his mother easily or soon. But I am certainly not ready to be an agent in that process, although I have given lip service to it with all the kids.

The pastor, by the way, is very, very close to her, she was a voluntary receptionist, etc. He asked me very seriously if she had developed a neurological condition, maybe a brain tumor.

God, this conversation with her was wrenching. I got a lot more information out of this because I played them off against each other, with the threat against the OM and the faking that I had info from her leading to some honest data there.

Like she initially said 3 times they were together. So did he. I told her he said 20. She was like, absolutely no, maybe 8. Since that was what he had said, (after first saying 3, must have been the agreed upon story)) probably about right.

The worst was when I said "How often has he been to this house?" just fishing, and got a "about five times. "Where did you have sex?" -- on the guest bedroom bed.

I was totally expecting "no" to both those questions. I think that is the moment my heart snapped close.

"Did you have unprotected sex?" No!no! How about unprotected oral? Sheepish look.

I ripped into her about destroying our family and disrespecting the house and everything else, and told her all she cared about right now was her BF. No! that's over. Really? Why? Because of him wanting to reconcile with his wife. So, not because of you wanting to commit to your family, only because his wife is c@ck-blocking you.

Sigh....there is a lot more, the seeming attempt to introduce him to everyone in her life and be ready to slide her into my place.

I must say, it was the first time I got some level of contrition out of her, she was terrified, but not over her marriage, over her kids.

Then she pleads she wants to work on the marriage and wants a hug (read sex). Basically flips on everything she said 6 hours ago in the talk I wrote about here. Seems to not remember -- genuinely -- is that a fog thing? Looked confused when I quoted her same words back to her, and she has a memory like an elephant.

I think my hand is played here. We are supposed to meet Friday with a divorce mediator to start figuring it out.

Damn, she is so f'ing cute. What's the policy on a grudge#$% on the way out the door?

:-) <-- very weak smile