Had to find out through my oldest daughter the WW has contacted the OM again. This time she used my daughter's MySpace account to do it. This is not going to end with this OM. So then I guess I broke my streak of no AO's. I asked her to leave. So she calls some other guy that lives in town that she has known since childhood to come get her. But she never leaves. So I kept hounding her to call him to come get her. I even packed her bags for her. She then calls the police on me. No I did not touch her. Harassing her to leave YES. I am tired of hearing about this OM for my whole marriage and it needs to come to an end. My boundaries have been crossed and now I am enforcing them. I want her to go but the police said she has every right to stay here its her house also.

LA you asked if I could see the manipulation in what I did to my employer. YES. Of course I knew what I was doing. Did I learn a lesson? There is no lesson when I already had known what to expect and the final outcome. You are correct in saying I have full responsibility for my own actions whether they are failures or successes. This business venture was a failure to begin with. I very much wanted my friend or what I thought was a friend to have something good in his life. He wanted to better himself also. I tried to keep him motivated and focused on the goal. It did go well for the first couple months but that was all it lasted. He just seemed to lose all sight of the objective and withdrew. There are many other factors in why my decision not to eventually legally sign to form a partnership with him. He was expecting a lot from the business venture also and had his own motivation.

LA I run through the 50 different other ways to go about things. It may very well appear to you that it was an all or nothing venture. I probably have tried at least half of those. Some worked some didn't.

Why did I hang in with him so long? Good question. It was not out of fear though. I really have no good answer for you or myself. I have sat here and thought about it and really there is no rhyme or reason for it. Other than I chose to do nothing.

Your right I am focused on him because I carry resentment and anger towards him now. I have busted my rear end and I am not being justly compensated for it. Your right I could have taken care of all of it. Sat down with the accountant, hired the payroll service and any other tasks that needed done. Again though working on the policy of mutual agreement with him was what I based my in action on. He wasn't in agreement with me to do these things. Really its boiling down to if I have to do it all myself then why do I need him. So now I choose not to need him any longer. He has crossed some of my more important boundaries way to often.

The A's I had. One in 2001 and one in 2003. Both one nighters . I told her of them 3 months ago.

Well I ended my employment with my former friend this morning. I was going to go in and finish this job we had almost complete. We would have finished the job today. He is going to sign the title over to the company van to me. I have not conveyed my discontent with him in a manner that is forthright. He asked this morning if this has to do with him and I told him yes it does. But this morning I told him I was unwilling to go into details due to the problems I now have with my wife. I told him I would sit down with him over the phone and finalize my last payment and the van. At that time I would discuss what the problem was. Now I am unemployed at the moment. I have also promised to do a job for another person. I am going to use this new job as a springboard for a new start-up. I have a strong feeling deep inside to start this new company. Something is telling me to do this.

As far as my marriage goes I feel the relationship is now over. I do not foresee the damage I created last night being repaired. I was really hurt by the fact she contacted the OM again even if it was to tell him she was ok. Each time I have caught her at this she completely blows up. I tried to stay calm at first when I began discussing the contact with her. But then she again started attacking me and telling me how worthless I was. That is when I began to ask her to leave and my anger poured out. I created no violence but just wanter her to leave. I had two versions of the story one my oldest daughter gave and one my wife gave. I don't believe it matters what the contact was even if my wife saw it as harmless.

She tells me this morning that I have never trusted her and that I never will. She is almost correct. I felt we had been building our relationship back up. I began to feel that I could trust her. I was trusting her. I hadn't been checking up on her. I had her phone bill in my hands a few days ago and gave it to her when I could have easily opened it and seen what activity she had been doing. But I did not feel that need because like I said I felt our relationship had been getting stronger. Come to find out everyone in the family knew she had contacted OM except for me and my son. I now understand why two of my daughters left the house again to go back to bad situations of their own. Why my third daughter had been angry with my wife. Why my BIL had been aloof the last few days. I guess they felt they were trying to protect me in some way. Or at least that is what they have told me.

I feel now that my wife had contacted OM through my daughters MySpace because she knew my daughter would eventually tell me. I feel she did this on purpose to find my threshold on the anger. Like I told her it really just hurt me. I felt I had come a long way in rebuilding my character and our marriage. She had even told me she loved me a couple of times recently. That alone gave me great hope. But it was shattered in one phone call. I knew there were still unresolved issues especially with the finances and my former employer/friend. Right now though I am going to try to reconnect again with my inner self. Its going to be difficult because I really feel I am at a low now. I have tried to use the coping skills I have learned but it is only helping marginally at best. Even church this morning did not alleviate the pain I feel. Usually I find comfort while in church and an inner peace. This morning it took all my effort to focus on the service. I still love my W. I still want nothing more than for our marriage to work.

MrE,

Thank you for the info on your A's. I think the EA you realized was more like MrsE's and her brother...some ENs were met and it added conflict into your marriage. That's my opinion, not fact, 'k?

It's tough to partner someone who has had a fantasy figure in their head throughout your marriage. Easy for her to disconnect from the OM in her thoughts when her resentment lowered towards you; easy to reconnect with it when she disconnected from you.

I'm sorry you heard me saying you did it wrong in my previous post. Difficult for me to ask you to look not at your choices per se, actions; to look underneath at the pattern as it presents. We can't wish others into acting better than they do. Our very wishfulness is what feeds our fear and anger...mostly self-directed. I hope you'll look at my post again, down the road, and consider what I asked...I wasn't saying any "you should haves" or "shouldn't haves"...that's more wishfulness.

Is it true that you often suspected MrsE of an affair throughout your marriage? I would understand if your fear spiked in 2001 and 2003--it does when we are doing that which we fear our partner doing. Was her belief you had been checking up on her a decade before that correct?

I hope you address the honesty issue within your family, state clearly how important it is to you, that what harms your relationships with them is protecting you from information. It can add to an unspoken put down--you're too weak, volatile to know the truth. Hurts a lot on its own, separate from MrsE's choices. Separate that pain out and speak of it to your family. It's a valuable lesson.

God is working in your life, MrE. He doesn't stop...he doesn't fatigue, wear down, cut out...he keeps bringing you his love...focus on your breathing, pull yourself firmly into the present (where God is), and do not declare whether your relationship is over with MrsE or not...you can decide your half, not the whole...you add to your fear, to kick in more anger, feel more powerful, when you do this...let that old habit go. Right now, MrsE is out of the family home, is that correct? Right now, you know the truth of contact. Right now, you are married and separated.

Re-center yourself. You can even go back in your mind if it begins replaying last night again, and change it...when she stated that you never trusted her and never would...then you do the listen and repeat (it's a good exercise), "I hear right now that you choose to believe I have never trusted your fidelity and never will." Changes in your own mind her stuff (you statements are inflamers...up to you to know they cannot be real...so listen and repeat is essential) to her stuff, keeps yours for yours.

Same for the DJs...would be a great exercise for you, to hear her opinion as being more about herself...she didn't trust herself, she believed she was worthless, and felt blame like a physical stab to her heart...even the tiniest ones...so fearing blame was behind every DJ...to shove it onto you, to be right rather than married.

I'm not saying this to change how you see her in your eyes--I'm not that powerful. I am sharing because both of you have feared blame...created and held resentments...your patterns mirror each other exquisitely...as humans do over 25 years married...you can use it as a tool to see better into your own patterns when hers pop out at you...still a signal for you, about you.

As you do this, you'll then hear her opinion, her statements, to be a twisted way of telling you her stuff, about her. Her choices were about her...yours are about you.

One thing I see in your post is how you look at the outcome to judge the actions taken to get there...still backwards living...because then you don't see that the foundation for rebuilding to be NC, commitment from her to transparency, even where she informs you when her thoughts go into that fantasy again...where you fight together, don't drop the diligence, at this time, even when she says it hurts in her that you don't trust her. She can hurt and your marriage can recover. You supporting her in her struggle to stop a lifelong habit is an act of love...not shame. Supportive, not enabling.

Did you hear in her statements of who you were (the DJs) that she was blaming you for her choices? You made her contact again? In your head, do you do the same to her? I'm asking, not telling.

Focus on your breathing anytime you feel your anger rise up...and then ask the anger where it's coming from, what belief in you...see if there isn't a repeated statement going on "It shouldn't be this way" or something similar...any "but I've changed" "things were better" "what did I do to make...?" These are anger-generating from fear...trying to have control over what you do not have...and often they swing around to a straight shot of resentment..."Well, I didn't...she did" and you build a wall of entitlement...which is why I was asking about your ex-business partner...very much paralleled your marital experience both from MrsE and your own experience...safer, actually, to see it over there, outside your marriage, to see within your marriage better.

Would you consider getting a book from the library today? "Healing the shame that binds us" by John Bradshaw. A great way to reconnect to your inner self, IME.

Are you now in Plan B? Can you write a Plan B letter and pick an intermediary? Did you see my suggestion of looking up Eagle15's posts here on MB?

With all these questions to you, I suddenly had an image of a bright lamp point at your face.

LA

LA yes I understand your post about looking at my underlying patterns. I have a constant pattern of expecting people to perform at a higher level than what they do. When they do not yes anger is projected from me. I expect a lot from myself so I expect a lot from others. I have known it was wrong but can't seem to break the pattern. Yes it is a self image and self serving trait I have. It is destructive. Its blown up on me several times.

Yes I have suspected my WW of previous affairs. I had checked some of her emails before when the internet was new to us. I found an email where she had been talking to another man sexually. I found another email where a friend of hers was asking about a boyfriend at work. I intercepted another email from the man friend here in our town she has known since childhood. Where she was wanting to ride with him to their class reunion in another state without me. One other time at a job she held where there was strange signs of a possible affair. She has accused me of putting in cameras, recording devices, tapping phones and now with the key logger. None of which I have done. I believe she has had several emotional affairs throughout our marriage. I do not know whether she has had any physical affairs. There does not appear to be evidence to make that conclusion. I can see my WW's perception that I have never trusted her. Yes I guess I have had wishful thinking about not checking on her NC with this current affair.

I did talk to each one of the people that were in the house about telling me things they knew about the contact with OM. Once that was said to each one more info flowed from their mouths about my WW's behavior while I am at work. They all repeated pretty much the same thing. My WW is bashing me while I am not there to them. But then was being civil to me when I was at home. They chose two-faced as the words to use. They can see I really care for my WW and it hurts them also to know what she is doing behind my back and in front of them. They can see the changes I have made and how I was handling my WW in a much better manner.

I know God is with me LA. I can feel his presence around me all the time now. My faith continues to grow every day with God. I feel his love. When I focus on prayer I do get feelings of inner peace.

Right now MrsE is loading the car as I type. She has not left yet. Yes we are married but as of yet not separate.



I have come to realize this very fact LA over the past 3 months. The DJ's have been a constant throughout our M. When she would start them I would fire right back. I may have last night even fired some at her I don't remember.



How do I broach this with her when she blows up at me because of it and says I don't trust her? Enforcing NC with OM? I need guidance here.

My anger rises most when she attacks me at the very core of my values. Those are the ones that hurt the most. That's why my anger rose last night. The contact was the least important aspect of the argument. She kept asking if this was all about her contacting the OM. In a way it is all about the A. It goes against all that I believe in. Even my A's went against everything I believed in and crossed the very boundary I had sworn not to cross. The two A's I had were self-serving. Pure sex. No emotional attachments were ever formed with these OW. I feel if I ever did have a long term affair with all EN's being met I would have left my WW. It has been a long time since my WW met all of my EN's.

She has drove away now with a loaded car of luggage and a six pack of beer.

LA I read some of Eagle15's posts. Were there some posts you specifically would like for me to read? Eagle15 has almost a thousand posts. As far as reading the book you mentioned I will try to read it after I read the book my W left for me to read before she left. Its called "In The Eye Of The Storm: A Day In The Life Of Jesus" by Max Lucado. It is a very good book I have read half of it since she left. But it left a very important question in my mind. How can my W read these books and act the way she does towards me? The book is about the most stressful day in Jesus' life. It is the one day in Jesus' life that is written about in all four gospels. Too bad I hadn't read it before Saturday night when I blew a gasket asking my W to leave.

Like I said previously I believe my W contacted the OM on my daughters MySpace because my W knew our daughter would tell me. If you will a test of my commitment to not have AO's. I find it to be abusive in nature. I do know that the OM contacted one of my W's friends through MySpace to check on my W's well-being. This was the trigger that caused her to contact him thinking he cares about her. This is why in the last few days it appeared we were going back to our old ways. I knew something was wrong. It completely muddled my W's thinking process again. I am not the only one being hurt by her EA. It is affecting our entire household.

As far as writing a plan B letter I have not. I suppose this is the next step with her. She has asked that I not contact her which I plan not to. I know that she will read these boards though to find out what I am thinking. Well if she is, MrsE I still love you and I want to reconcile our M.

Two posts and two responses, 'k?


I want to ask you further, that you have a reliable pattern of expecting people to perform at a higher level than what they have done in the past. Would that be true, also?

Do you believe that if you didn't expect from yourself...you wouldn't do as you do now? As much, to a certain level?

To want is not to expect. They are different. Expectations are premeditated resentments. We often confuse one for the other...use them as emotional managers, motivators (and fear of failure as our motivation rather than our want to succeed); which secretly tells self "You would be lazy, worthless and useless if I didn't make you expect, strive and yearn."

We yearn, anyway. We do what we want...and we choose our reasons. One of them truly can be, "Because this is what I want." We can perform at levels which shock ourselves when we stand in this reality---humans do what they want and don't do what they don't want.

When we've experienced our expectations blowing up on us repeatedly and we don't change our pattern, then there is a false payoff at work...a habit involved. It may be that these failed expectations continually affirm you're right--you are indeed lazy, worthless and useless." Our fear of the unknown often exceeds our misery of the known...when we confirm our own failures (acting insane by doing the same thing over and over again and EXPECTING (keyword) different outcomes). o

Confirmation can be really gratifying in a terribly destructive way. I think you've seen that with MrsE wanting to confirm you HAD NOT changed by any means necessary...because it is essential for you to be who she believed you to be in order for her to be who she thinks she is.

Provocation to justify and at a deeper level, to survive. We do extreme actions when we resist change. We resist change from our fear of the unknown.

What a loop, eh?

I believe you know all of this already...anything which resonates within you was already there...our ah-ha moments are the real confirmation that we're becoming aware of what we already knew. Which is why resistance lessens, the epiphanies seem simplistic (along with...why didn't I see that before), and we experience huge relief inside. We got it. We see it. Takes what it takes.

Drawing the parallels is not me pointing your focus to MrsE...it is to your similar patterns for greater understanding. The dance steps couldn't have continued being taken in the same way if one of you had stopped dancing. Which is why blame isn't relevant.

When you are still and know God, you know yourself, too. Your self...not your self-image. You know your self before you had recreated God's creation into self-image. Lovely, loving, whole and complete. You stop dancing. You can sit and meditate at why you choose to expect...find your false payoff (mine is a guess from my own experience), and reveal yourself to you.

Awareness begins changing our habits...gives rise to new choices, and stating what you really want and what you don't really want. You don't want to live in fantasy...expectations are...part of our common human insanity to expect others when we only control ourselves through our stuff and our choices.

Sharing with you what I see helps me to reveal myself to me. Everything is a two-way street. Mutuality is constant, too. God's design.

Your checking MrsE is okay by me. I think it came from knowing you guys didn't have well-defined and agreed upon marital boundaries, no radical honesty and openness. Again, we signal ourselves through our urges...up to us to trace those urges and say, "Wait a minute, what's underneath." And we've been raised that jealousy is love, there is privacy in marriage, and secrets are to protect our partners.

Backwards living. So we may feel shame from a belief we have we don't really believe...and when you checked, had you found nothing, been held and congratulated by MrsE for fighting for your marriage even back then, to obtain the truth...well, your intimacy would have deepened. You were not the cause of her choices...even if she chooses to believe that right now, 'k?

Easy to see how what we do to honor our marital boundaries can be seen as making us into enemies...we very easily slip into that mindset...not real.

Her belief was that physical adultery was adultery. Since MB, you both have learned otherwise...things resonated within you...and now, to her betrayal.

See, three months isn't much in recovery. She only has had three months to understand she was betrayed by you, that you committed adultery...and though understandable given her ongoing affair, not you now doing what is needed to help her heal. Very messy timing and brilliant honesty. Still follows that her betrayal, her DDay was three months ago.

Cannot justify...she was already in her EA prior to knowing she was betrayed...just want to offer to those WS's out there that think their betrayal is a secret and doesn't hurt their BS, even after they end their A and don't tell...you're living proof that's not true...it matters...has an affect...and can be crazymaking...reasoning ourselves out of knowing something is really off, wrong and not knowing what it is.

We very often act two-faced when we are adulterers...for we have our real face and our adulterous one. The one that's justifying is the adulterous one. We really do yearn, love and miss our partners...in parts of ourselves...even as we are actively attacking our marriages. Please explain this to your children. Hypocrisy is not the worse sin...it very much is a signal to ourselves we are in fantasy and others see it plainly.

Intentional hypocrisy is the sin of deceit...and it takes self-deceit to say you are committed to doing one thing and do the other. We say we are looking at ourselves, and often, we do it through focusing solely on our partners. In a way, we are looking at our selves...the mirror we placed in their hands, to define, soothe, make us happy and complete. Up to us to put down the mirror instead of define them back.

Keep talking to your kids...because they may feel they betrayed you by not confronting MrsE when they heard her bashing you. Openness and Honesty among your kids and yourself...for all hurts to air, anger to hear stated (not demonstrated) let's love flow, and you sorely need that experience...that you are love and so are they.

Kudo them on their bravery in honesty. Welcome it at any time respectfully. Listen and repeat to hear their truth separately from the truth, 'k?

Great practice.

Reality grabbing. Helps in all ways...self-discovery, not living through expectations, feeling at peace and sufficient. That's reality. Fantasy pales in all ways compared to reality.

You've seen the ways you harmed your marriage with DJs...I pray you'll also see how you've harmed yourself with them...DJs are in expectations...we often confuse them with boundaries...holding others to our expectations is not holding them to our boundaries...nor is our own self-expectations our own boundaries. Expectations have no amends, no reality and no way home.

Boundaries always do.

Guilt is often what we experience when we believe we've failed others' expectations; shame is when we have failed our own.

Self-punishment must end before punishing others does. You cannot do to yourself what you permit yourself to do to others...and vice versa. Constant two way street.

Your LBs aren't who you really are, either. You are not anger. You have felt deep anger. Know you are not your emotions, either, 'k?

Same for betrayal.

When anyone blows up, AO's or DJs...you have predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements...be them strangers, customers, children, siblings or your partner. You do not allow yourself to AO or DJ (or SD, lie or act out in independent behaviors). When you do so, you stop and name what boundary you crossed, why you crossed (spot your justification, permission) and why and how you won't do it again. Do the same for others out of respect. "MrsE, I hear you're really upset that I choose not to trust you right now and you believe I have not trusted you in our 25 years together. I'm hearing you yelling through your tone (or volume) and if you continue to do so, I'll remove myself for 20 minutes and then return to our discussion."

This very act of respect helps your anger and pain to ease off, dissapate the drugs in your head and body, and does not self-betray (which can escalate and aggravate those drugs).

She does it when you return, you restate and remove for two hours, stating what you're doing, why you're doing it and when you will return. Respects her choice to continue the discussion, her tone, her volume, her stuff...and respects your own choices. Not manipulation, punishment or parenting. Holding yourself to your boundaries...self-commitment and acting from love of self and partner.

Saturday night might have gone differently or not...you won't know. This is God's way...he wants you now, for today, to stop putting MrsE in a separate category of conduct...just as you put your business partner in one. Humans are humans...they do and don't do...and each is a choice. All equal, all the time. He wants you to know and be intimate with him through your choices of how you see and experience others.

He first respected...and our mandate is to live from respect.

As long as you choose to believe if either OW's had met all your ENs you would have abandoned your wife and family, then you will see her abandonment of her husband and family as justifiable or not justifiable.

There is no justification. It's a choice. Your ONS's were choices. You broke your vows to yourself, your wife and The Marriage (which never harmed you for a single second, never deprived you of an EN). You didn't do so because of unmet needs...just as you don't do the dance of expectations without KNOWING they will blow up in your face, recreating active, current betrayal by others...when it's you who is betraying yourself.

Please consider what I've said. When I go full force I am taking myself to task...triggering to my own justifications for decades...and that's mine, not yours. See what's yours, 'k?

I'll reply to your other post tomorrow.

Your family, including MrsE, is in my prayers and I have no doubt God is active in your life and life experiences right now.

(Don't dwell on her being able to read and recommend the book, believe in God and still attack the marriage, God's covenant...it's a distraction for you...a hidden expectation and justification...follow your own signals to your self...they are important.)

LA

Yes, LA that would be true.



Yes. When I lower expectations for myself though it makes me stagnant and I don't expect from others either. I strive to better myself in some facet of my life everyday. I expect that from myself. Now if my expectations of another person gets to the point that it is so low then again frustration with that person comes out. I do try to keep expectations in perspective also. Let's take my line of work for example. I deal in life safety. I have high expectations of those I work with because many lives depend on our systems to work. When our system does not work or performs poorly people can die. So then I WANT the best people on the job.


Its viscous.


I am personally glad you are sharing your time with me. It helps me gain perspective on myself also. Yes I am aware of many of my faults. You pointing them out to me helps with the changes I am going through. Please keep posting.


This is what I am reaching for LA. I thought I would be able to grab it at any moment and bring it back. But I am finding out it is not that easy. I have allowed my W over the years to bring this inner peace back to me. As I believe I have done for her. I have told her this much. Neither one of us should be doing this for the other. Little by little I am getting there on my own.


I told her this today before reading your post. I must have tried to leave the argument 3-4 times on Saturday night. But I allowed myself to get drawn back in on each DJ she threw at me. It then got to the point where I couldn't get out of it until I got what I wanted from her. I can say I did recognize myself losing control. Where I may not have in the past. But I still failed to react to that recognition by leaving until I reestablished my self control.



Like I said earlier I respect your posts to me. They are very helpful. I read and reread them in order to respond back to you. I try to be as open and honest with you as I can be on an open forum like this. If you are seeing things in me that you once saw in yourself and you have healed then I could not ask for a better teacher. I really appreciate the time you spend replying to me. Thanks LA.

MrE,

Since you expect more from others than they've demonstrated they choose to do...then your own expectations are wishful, not real. Easy to confuse seeing the best in everyone and expecting the best. Don't confuse those.

When you don't see their choices as they are, then you aren't accepting the person as they are right now, either. Acceptance is not approval...it's the reality tool. They choose not to do and to do...just like you. What they've chosen to do before doesn't ensure that's what they'll choose to do again. We can't know.

And it's okay not to know...it's healthy to KNOW what you don't know right now and not give into the urge to fill it in with fantasy...including expectations.

YOUR expectations do not motivate others. They motivate themselves...in their own ways. If your expectations of others has been fantasy, are yours of yourself possibly the same?

And what expectations do you have of MrsE? Of marriage? Want to lay those down and have a look at them, too? We experience a lot of pain, rejection, anger and frustration from our choice of unreasonable expectations...we even rebel against our OWN expectations...all signals to us of where we are at in our heads, the perspective we're choosing, and really old, hidden, untrue beliefs.

We can sure repeat our patterns through repeating our expectations...calling them what they are not and cannot be. You're not alone.

What if you remove your expectations of yourself and instead, form and live from your code. You want to experience a respectful life...put respect in your code. Then act from it. Not expecting yourself to do it perfectly...getting in touch with your deepest desire...this is what I most want...same for honesty, consideration, acceptance...what do you hunger for the most, MrE? What flares you up the most when you see it in others?

With a code, there aren't expectations...you either choose to act from your code or act based on possible response...you've been doing the later for almost all your life...and I don't think you want that anymore. I really don't. I think you want to act from one source within yourself...

And it's faith, not expectations.

See, each time you act from your own code, you act in faith...you let go the outcome. It's how you experience God with you in each moment...by embracing your limits and owning your power.

I'm going to repeat for emphasis:

Expectations are premeditated resentments. (LostHusband)

Get to understand your fantasy ways and choices and you will understand better your business partners, employees, bosses, clients, spouse, children and humans.

You don't stagnant without expectations. You just lowered them and so you lowered your fear of failing them. Do you want to live from fear or love?

Do you strive to better your self or make better choices for your self and your family?

You end up frustrated with other people when you lower your expectations of them, is that correct? What if they're choices are theirs, not about you...and you see them choosing to do and not do, don't know what they will choose next, and instead, focus on sharing your choices, informing them of your stuff?

Know why we live from our expectations, btw? Because there are so many standard and reasonable ones...the sun will rise tomorrow (as if the always has and always will ENSURES it will...and it is a reasonable expectation...for it will continue to rise until it doesn't). Wheels use friction to traverse pavement...laws of physics, including gravity provides a bunch...if I drop a glass it falls. However, what we don't see is our role as observer even within facts like gravity.

I know the glass will fall down when I drop it because I've seen it do so many times. That's our brains. Our brain seeks shortcuts...fastest, most efficient way to provide its information, retrieve it from storage and deliver. It shortcuts gravity, a force outside ourselves, and relies on "Every time I've dropped a glass or seen one dropped, it falls down."

Okay, maybe not in the movies...not in Apollo 13...or sci-fi...

See the same shortcut that skips over expecting humans to react, act and choose based on past choices and reactions? Gravity isn't at work...and all of our reactions, actions and choices change based on what we're choosing from...every day, we can make different choices than before...totally based on us, and several variables.

Which is why we can keep blowing up our plots and plans, crashing, burning and rising again...until we don't. Until the pain of not changing finally exceeds our pain of changing.

It takes what it takes. Our job is to ensure that our changes "take."

Fake it til' you make only works long enough for your prior hidden beliefs and permissions become exposed, so you can see them...it keeps working, and real feelings begin flowing, once you change your beliefs and permissions.

Actions result in feelings. You can change yours by changing your actions and then aligning yourself internally with your new actions. You can choose NOT to stagnate by choosing not to...and by holding yourself accountable to your choices, all the way.

You choose to check and recheck for line safety even when you don't feel like it...you know the possible consequences and they are not what you want.

Same way with your own AO's...you check your line safety, your perspective and perception...you do what you need to keep from flooding with the drugs released from your fear and pain, resulting in a surge of anger. That way you keep yourself and others safe, within your power.

Your expectations for physical line safety, for the lines to hold, the material to perform as expected (to hold) aren't unreasonable. Expectations of humans, however, are...and there is equipment failure (usually with a human hand in it somewhere along the line).

Separate those two, so you can immerse yourself in reality.

Expectations of humans depend on outcome. Don't let them lure you into fantasy...we blame outcomes for our actions, even as we blame others for our feelings. Then we manipulate harder to get the outcome we want.

Even though you hold yourself (not expect) to doing everything possible to secure those safety lines and make sure the function, you don't really control people dying or not...you do your very best from highest awareness and acceptance of danger...and let the outcome go. Ponder this for a long time...because we have our best protocols possible with what we know right now, and when we know better (even as a society) we begin to do better, implement what we know. There are no guarantees for anything outside of our control...and there's always something outside of our control.

People who have high expectations of other humans are the ones you'll find most condemning, blame-shifting, and judgmental...full of "you should have" or "you shouldn't have"...no more closer to reality (which is you did or you didn't) than expectations are...and very damaging to relationships...all of them.

Not faults, choices. You have previous habits, habits of choosing...cumulatively, you can choose to seem them as faults within you, defects, weaknesses...they remain choices in my book. God didn't make no junk ever.

Jesus was not meek or weak when he said to turn the other cheek.

It was a fault of his to ask if someone wanted to be healed before healing them.

It was his choice.

Our loops and patterns (within the cycle) are vicious...great description. Do you want to experience the vicious repetition and the resulting feelings anymore?

Back to expectations...when you came home from work on Saturday, did you have a hidden expectation that you wouldn't AO'd? Do you believe your higher expectation of yourself to not physically damage anyone or any object protected you from doing so?

Or would you say you revoked your permission to act violently, and did not revoke your permission to act out verbally when you reached a higher LEVEL of anger, fear and/of pain?

See, new events give us the opportunity to revoke our permissions again...they aren't blanket, they are specific...just as our reactions are...if I'm this angry (have been this (level) harmed), then....

those if/then statements...ponder them. Each new level you reach will be new ground for your brain...unless you practice...going back in time, replaying exactly previous AO's and redoing them in your head in all the details...by smell, sight and sound, each step.

Wow...lots of thinking time to do that. So on Saturday, did you cross your boundary? Do you have the boundary that you will state your stuff, not demonstrate it? Not in tone, volume, mockery, sarcasm, body language or facial gestures?

If you do have and did cross...what are your predetermined and progressive amends?


You chose to not lean on your own safety line again and again...I hear you. You chose to put your desire to react to her stuff, her statements, ahead of your own safety and that of the marriage. Your expectation that you could just re-center by reminding yourself of your enforcements, intead of doing them, didn't help you, did it?

We don't leave the argument (stays in our heads)...we physically leave the room, and if necessary, the house/place...and hold ourselves to stating what we're doing, why we're doing it and when we are committed to returning. Nothing external can pull us back in...we rely on our feet and our predetermined permission to do this, to resettle ourselves, realign to our code.

Say "Ouch!" right now...then say it again. "Ouch." When she threw provocative statements at you, defining you as you walk out of the room, say "Ouch" and continue walking out. That's a reactive choice you can make which responds without escalating...and doesn't interfere with your boundary enforcements because it can be the first or second one...feet keep moving...and your focus stays in your power...on you.

Time limits weren't followed...five hours of conflict isn't healthy or connecting...limit any conflict discussion to one hour and take a break together...picking it back up in 20 minutes...each time you do, each of you will experience an unbroken promise, self-care and partner care, holding yourself to the boundary whether you feel like it or not.

Emotional and mental workouts to build your boundary enforcing muscles.

Commit to not responding when you feel ambushed. Provoked. State your stuff and remove until you can rejoin the discussion, listen and repeat, and hand back the ambushing person's anger as theirs...helps you then to take the next enforcement.

The option to say, "I am too reactive right now. I want to schedule a time 24 hours from now we can sit down and discuss this. What time is good for you?" You can choose to not address it right now except to acknowledge it's important, you want you to be at your best and you'll honor the appointment you both agree on.

Self-respect built from your acts of respect.

What number were you at in your boundary enforcements for another OM contact by MrsE? Was it separation?

I heard you say it didn't matter what she said (I'm okay) to OM...I heard you say it her knowingly contacting her adultery partner which was another attack on the marriage...each contact you came here and stated it as you found out. It mattered. Not the outcome from contact...the choice to contact.

See, as long as she has contact, the longer she will require you to meet her FS EN in the way she wants you to, when she wants you to and how she wants you to...she will continue to disrespect and control your choices...especially yours about your self-image...which is really important to her...not true selves. Don't make your choices dependent on those of an addict.

Want to have really healthy, intimate relationships that thrive? Enforce your boundaries around yourself. Install cyberpatrol on all of your computers to protect yourself and your kids from fantasy spinners. You'll thank yourself later...my DH has been porn-free for two full years in his entire life...and it's quite a burden lifted; he's seeing humans as equals, finally; his expectations are gone and he's thrilling to living in the present...porn was the concrete block on his leg and he didn't realize it before.

Coincidentally...others stopped failing his expectations after he stopped viewing them as two-dimensional beings. Again, your brain shortcuts...gives you the illusion of them being real people, yet not individuals, flattens them because you control them in your mind...so you're going to try to control others in real life, too.

Anything to an extreme is hazardous to your relationship with self, God and others. Just is...keeps us in shame spirals and blame-shifting confusion. Porn is extreme. Period. It's physical intimacy distorted and makes others not real...that's not really Sue (daughter, sister, mother)...that's a porn star doing her job. Her choice.

Yours is not to look...so you can be in touch with your own sacred, your marital sacred and your partner sacred. Makes yourself and your partner extraordinary and one of a kind...cleans your brain of those shortcuts so you can live in fullness and abundance.

You hate being compared, thought less of, judged...think of how you do this with porn and see if you can enforce a boundary you cross yourself many more times than you imagined.

Breathe more...when you crave something, stop and take three slow, deep breaths with slow exhales...and focus on your own breath, your spirit...then choose. We stop feeling like slaves when we stop reacting to our compulsions...we can feel them and not act on them.

Now, are you in Plan B for real, complete with letter and goal intact, are separated or not? If Plan B, then do not speak with MrsE at all. Only through an intermediary. If just separated and not Plan B, not enforcing a boundary, just sort of happening by her choice...half in and half out...hold your choices, your limits, up to your goal and see if you're lying to yourself, treating YOURSELF as weak, shameless, hopeless, less than...incapable or unable.

Good to know.

LA

LA it took me a day or two to understand about what you wee saying about expectations being a fantasy or wishful thinking. I get it. As far as expectations I had of our M I gave those up long, long ago.



Yes. I tried that Saturday evening to restrain myself from being verbally abusive. I began the conversation in a rational calm manner. I just couldn't overcome the verbal abuse I was getting from my W at the time.



Before we married my W found the porn on my closet door. She told me how she felt and I got rid of it immediately. Years later to be immersed in porn again. This time through my wife ordering a subscription to Penthouse for me. For a year I was given permission to look by my W. Looking at porn continued for years up until 4 months ago when I stopped and haven't looked since.

MrE,

Thank you for your effort to understand my beliefs. I believe it's really difficult to communicate perspectives and it takes both sides, listener and speaker, to reach understanding.


I thought restraining didn't work for you in the past. I thought what really changed was accepting that anger floods us with a real drug in our heads, throughout our body, as does fear. So you can't just use restraint to hold back...takes predetermined progressive promises to self as to what you'll do when you're flooded...which is how I see us getting to higher levels.

We revoke our permission to DJ and AO at level one. Then a deeper conflict occurs (fueled by our hidden expectations of response we aren't getting) and we AO at level two.

We name the boundary crossed, and when our partner continues to cross it, we remove for the time it takes those internal drugs to leave our system (which is why, IMO, alcohol and other drugs complicate conflict to uncontrollable levels...we have enough natural drugs in our body we cannot control...why add to the crud?).

Takes between 10 and 20 minutes of breathing and refocus for the drug(s) to dissapate. Then we're back to level one, aren't we? No restraint...pure commitment...respects reality within you. It's the real self-control we looked for all our lives...and yeah, we have it...not restraint...awareness. Then choosing from our new awareness.

I see Dr. Harley's definition of O&H and radical honesty as the brilliant answer to what has hounded us, within us, for our patterns. "Wow, I'm shaking right now from anger. I can really feel that drug in my body. I will be back in ten minutes." You can open your mouth to speak of your stuff, with ownership, and act from it...which removes the "she's making so mad right now" from our experience.

"I know you know how provocative your DJs are to me; how much I value what you think of me. I want to lash out at you and I'm not going to do that. That's not who I really am."

We stop attempting to overcome another's abuse...it's not about us...that's our half to know. When they choose to attack, abuse us, our choices remain...to remove...those drugs are released in us for fear, pain, anger, sadness...different mixtures which affect us greatly...our ability to listen and repeat...(really helps to repeat back DJs, btw...takes them OUT of you, where they don't belong)...and to report..."I'm really reactive right now." Say your stuff aloud. Affirm reality...cuts through the fantasy and internal DJs, "Oh, she's hitting my buttons. She knows when she says that I'm going to yell or stomp off." Our own DJs escalate conflict, impair reality and real communication.

All this may look like restraint to you from the outside...essentially, revoking your permission for you to act out your experience instead of state your experience is like restraint...holding back...if you choose to see it that way, though, instead of stopping your old pattern which didn't communicate, really, what you wanted, in the way you really wanted it...(acting out is primal level communication), then where's the restraint?

Wasn't what you wanted all along, was it, really? And if you still have the belief that she won't take you seriously, won't understand or feel your pain if you DON'T zing her...then look at these assumptions closely and see if you truly believe in removing DJs or not. What we do ourselves tells us it's okay for others to do...and to react to them doing it, too.

That loop just won't end.

Removal for a stated period of time (and consistently reconnecting as promised) is not abusive. It's healthy. It's an act of love for the marriage, yourself and your partner.

It's not "time-out"...not punishing yourself or your partner...it's accepting our real physical, emotional, mental and spiritual reactions and choosing to NOT react from them.

Sure can seem the same from the outside. Not in your control.

You don't have to feel calm to speak calmly, btw. When I stopped abusing my partner, he noticed I had begun to speak much more slowly, from my focus on respect of myself, him and the marriage. Wasn't easy, natural or instanteous...took time, reinforcing my highest desire to hold myself to my own code (NOT his view of me) and practice, practice, practice.

Speaking calmly does bring some parts of calm. Not relying on feeling calm to act from it. Made it my standard for volume and tone, and when I feel really reactive, wounded and biting, speaking calmly anyway reinforces I don't live from my emotions...and different emotions immediately result from my actions.

Four months ago you chose to end another permission you'd had for several years. Was that about the same time you chose to really remove your permissions to AO, to change your life? Not too many things at once to do...one reinforcing your true desire to change, IMO.

Removing one helps the other...same when people remove alcohol and other daily drugs because each affects the other, interferes with the goal...not who we really are, anyway.

Are you experiencing new freedom, new love of self, MrE? When you choose to state, remove, re-engage as promised, then state and remove for longer, if necessary, as your progressive boundary enforcements, then you will not pursue, nor feel the need. You'll see her choices as hers, which in your very close partnership, will allow you in that instant to see your choices as truly yours. Awareness gets us there. Even in conflict.

My DH used to remove himself during conflict...without stating what for or when he would resume. He would beat himself up in his head for fleeing (the fight or flight thing) when the only element he was missing was stating and returning, progressively. In our last AO fest over three years ago, he did this again (reached a higher level in him than before) and I did yell to him upstairs, "Why and when?"

I have goosebumps right now remembering him, opening the door of the room he'd gone into, pausing at the top of the stairs and saying nothing, just looking at me. Then his descent and coming back into our livingroom. Tears of anger in his eyes, his stance screaming hurt, anger, frustration...and I didn't miss this amazing moment. Immediately, my gratitude for his choice rushed through me (we got those great drugs, too)...and I thanked him and took his hand.

That was his statement of who he really wasn't...the old pattern reasserted and he pushed it back. Didn't have to do it perfectly, wasn't wrong for doing it wrong in the first place...I got to seem him push back and that's when I saw a real hero, standing there.

He hasn't done it since. Doesn't mean he hasn't wanted to...we really do experience conflict differently now, without our old LBs (don't worry, we've created some sneaky new ones).



We rely on seeing each other very differently than before because we choose to believe we are different. Breaking that pushme/pullyou life-long dance was really tough. As tough as breaking our expectations that if I do this then you'll feel stuff.

We feel. We think. We believe. We perceive. We are. Right now. Clean slates...new every day...side by side. My gratitude doesn't stop, either, for his choice to return, speak, share, listen...the symbol of his commitment we're in this together. Even when we don't feel like it.

Did you read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship"?

Last Saturday night (a week ago already), you wanted to make her leave the home, maybe wanted to enforce your boundary...had you told her that any further contact would mean she would have to leave? You learned that night you can't make her leave, can't make her act decently or with ownership...she did choose to leave the next day, though. What does that tell you about your limits and power?

LA

Restraint didn't work in the past and it didn't work that night either. When we first got married I would walk away from the conflict. I said nothing and would get up and leave. My W would get even angrier when I would do that. I also would not get back with her and finish discussing what we were in conflict about. I could shut down for a couple days at a time. My W would have to initiate contact with me again. The old silent treatment worked well for me before our relationship.



Yes the changes all began at once. I could no longer accept the person I was. I didn't feel good about myself and knew this was also causing problems with our M.

I'll finish responding to your post LA once I get back from church. My W is accompanying me to church this morning. This will deposit love units into my bank.

MrE,

I'm just popping in to let you know I won't be on MB for the rest of today or this evening. No rush on your response, and I know you already know that.


I'm hearing you know restraint is a lie...it's like saying in your head, "She deserves me doing/saying this because she made me, but I will hold myself back." Breaking the restraint fantasy is important, and I think you're breaking it further.

Part of growth is changing your old beliefs...you USED to believe that the ol' silent treatment worked well for you before your relationship...would you consider it worked well for blocking intimacy, blame, living in fantasy? And we carry over our reactions for what we once wanted, even when that's not what we wanted anymore? When we don't realize our basic goals change, then our behavioral choices not changing creates conflict, within and without.

You wanted intimacy, responsibility and reality when you married MrsE. So those same things in her will trigger old habits in you...when she does not act from intimacy, ownership or reality (A's are fantasy), then you have your trigger points and why.

No restraint in the formula...just choice to see where you also may have stopped acting to your real goal...intimacy is knowing and sharing your own stuff with her...responsibility is inherent, so seeing others as the cause, control and cure for what is your own stuff makes responsibility seem like a blame fest...and check to see if you're dwelling in "What ifs" and "If onlys" for fantasy living...if only I could get this venture going, everything else would go smoothly...which makes it your top priority in your actions, directly thwarting what you wanted most of all...

Self-sabotage can be taken to an art-form in my own experience.



Seeing where "what worked well" before and why (what your real goals were) gives you better insight into what sets you off, where your fingers are grabbing what isn't yours, and how to realign, in a moment, breathing and refocusing back on your power.

You realized you no longer accepted the choices you made before...that wasn't who you really were...they were habits and routines which seemingly served you well, gave you a righteous feeling when you craved feeling loved.

You already were, are and will be. Give up and accept that as unchangeable. What you're working on right now is feeling how loved you already are...and how well you love based on your own choices. You really have been whole, complete, made of love all your life. I think you finally got sick of not living in reality fully...so you have changed your permissions, made new boundaries, and by enforcing them around you, the love is pouring in...and out.

When you do respond to my last post...would you consider sharing the facts of this past week were? When MrsE returned, if she did, what new agreements are in place or not...what's different or the same? I'm not clear on the facts.

Thanks,

LA

Church was long LA.


Yeah it worked well for those and many others that could be added to the list. I also gave up the long duration silent treatment for those reasons many years ago. I still do it today at a lesser degree. I can't last that long anymore without opening my mouth. Maybe a couple hours at best.


I don't use "if onlys". I do use "what ifs" but only for present problems. I don't do much dwelling with those in past or future forms. But I have caught myself over the past couple days with the shoulda, coulda, woulda nonsense. No need I already made the choice or decision for the problem at that time of the situation.



She returned after two days of staying in a hotel. The rest of the facts should be another post. I'll try to get back to it soon. I may have also posted in her thread once since she came back LA. I am busy with work right now and also consumed with my missing 23 y/o daughter.

LOL! I guess it was!




The ability to remain silent instead of DJing, SDing, AOing...right there in the middle...excellent ability, MrE. Sounds healthy to me.

Could that be what feels like restraint to you?

I don't believe God gave us anything we could not use to our benefit...unless taken to an extreme (then harms us).

Again, no rush. Thank you for posting. I read MrsE's post where you guys did find your DD23.

Your marriage remains in prayers...

LA

My W left Sunday afternoon to a nearby hotel. By 8:30am Monday morning she was calling me. We had a nearly 45 minute conversation over the phone. I don't really even remember the details. I told her I was going to get our granddaughter to spend the day with. She then asked if she could come pick us up to go swimming at the hotel pool Monday afternoon. We swam and then went and had lunch. She brought us back home and spent some time here with granddaughter and I. She went back to the hotel for awhile and came back to the house later that evening. We then went back to the hotel together. We also came back to the house Tuesday morning together.


There are no new agreements that I am aware of between us. She did ask me what I would like for her to change that bothered me. It was through email. I realized after sending the email I was baited into demanding changes from her. I told her before she read it that I wanted it back but she could read it. I told her of things that hurt me in a demanding way. Instead of making demands on her changes I should have told her of my boundaries instead. That would have been the better way to approach it.

I have tried to become transparent for her. When I was meeting with a long time co-worker female and did not feel like I was in an EA and was told differently here then I rapidly made it clear to this OW that our friendship was over. I gave this email I sent the OW to my W to read. My W asked for several weeks if I had contacted her or been contacted by her. At that time I tried to give my W my email and password. Also full access to my phone records. There was nothing I would hide from my W at the time. My W refused to accept my password although she did go through my phone record. I believe she felt if I gave her my password she would have to reciprocate with hers. I did not put that demand on her. She could still have access today without giving up her info. She had my last phone bill in her hands and threw it away without looking at it.

My W now knows every move I make. I call her when I leave from work everyday so she knows I am on my way home. I tell her if I work late so she is prepared for that. She is free to go with me anywhere I go. I want it that way anyway. I now want her with me all the time. Not so I can keep tabs on her but because I enjoy spending the time with her. No ulterior motives here.

I have become completely open and honest with her. Obviously when I told her of past affairs she would have never known about that happened over 5 years ago. I told her of all my past misdeeds and how I would deceive her when I stayed away from the house. Even now when she asks the tough questions I give her truth.

I have asked that she not contact OM. How she chooses to show me that she is no longer in contact with him is up to her. I am waiting on that response. Yes she asked me what she should do if he contacted her. I immediately felt uncomfortable about telling her what to do. She thinks it angered me. It didn't. I did tell her I wanted to see any contact he attempted to make with her. That was it. She has read Dr. Harley's books and is here on the boards with people giving her advice on how to show me there is no contact. She must choose transparency or not.

I know right now she is worried about me getting paid from my former partner. She is going to be involved with this conversation so that there is no misunderstanding. I have speaker phone and she can listen as him and I speak. I know of no better way then her direct participation in the conversation.

Some things have changed for the better though. She went with me to church this past Sunday like I said it deposited major love units in my bank. She calls me more often at work. Even though they are short conversations it still makes me feel wanted. She is not getting hammered drunk everyday. That's real good because her father was an alcoholic and from what science tells us it can be inherent.

Some things have still stayed the same though. But I will say those same things are happening with less frequency.

I would like for her to open up some and be a lot more honest with me. I know she says she fears my reaction to things she may need to tell me. But she likes to tell me I am not going to like what I am about to hear. How does she know? Just telling me that one phrase gets me angry before she even tells me what she has to say. She told me this the other night when she wanted to talk about what her and the OM spent countless hours on the phone. She didn't tell me everything nor do I care to hear about everything. But if she has a need to tell me then I should listen with an open mind and not get angry about it or at least tell her lets talk later. When she told me the things about her and OM the other night I quietly sat there and listened without interruption, an AO or DJ's.

My W has said I hadn't been speaking much about our relationship here on the boards. I will admit I dodged the relationship talk for a few pages. Not because I didn't want to talk about it but LA was doing a really good job of helping me get a grip on reality. I felt helping myself would eventually lead to me helping our relationship. Now I am more willing to discuss my marriage.

That's enough typing right now I have things to do around the house.

I would like to add about my oldest daughter. This started Sunday night by me receiving a very disturbing phone call from her gangster boyfriend. No judgment here he is. He just got out of jail for drug possession. He had a 30 day stint. During this time our D stayed with us but under very strict guidelines. Basically she could have no contact with anyone. She appeared to remain drug free while she was here at our house. But once the BF got out of jail then she left telling us she was not going to use drugs again. If her BF used then she would be right back here. That didn't happen. Supposedly he has stopped using but she didn't. Anyway he calls me Sunday night in a panic telling me she is missing. They were staying at some sleazy hotel with active drug activity. I know I smelled it. He gave me the keycard to the room to see if she was there. I am still not completely clear on what went down but he wouldn't go to the room with me. I was approached by three gangsters coming out of a room where I could smell marijuana. Wanting me to buy some drugs but more then likely wanting to rob me. Would not have been good for them because I was already on a mission and very focused on finding my daughter. Three thugs smaller than I was not going to deter me. I then found her room and again was approached by another unsavory character and quickly dismissed him. By now I was worried about my D's safety. Once in the room it was pretty disgusting. I stayed in the room for a couple hours waiting to see if she would show. She didn't so I grabbed her clothes and left a note.

By Wednesday I still had not heard from her and was contemplating filing a missing persons report. Instead we had her password to her myspace and found someone that may know her whereabouts. This required me once again to venture off into the dregs of society. I went into the nudie club and the guy wants $15 to let me in. Nah. I'm looking for my D. He tells me he hasn't seen her. I then ask to see this other guy from her myspace. He looked like a freak but was actually a really nice guy. He told me she had been there recently. So I asked him to have her call me if he sees her again.

I learned other facts once I returned home from the club. I can say she is very near the bottom right now. Without going into details she is still in harms way. This is tough on me because my D is a sweet girl when she is not on dope. Its also tough on me on whether to save her from herself or not. I don't want to go to her funeral which the way she is headed could be in the near future. Either from overdose or at the hands of an evil person.

If anyone else has experienced this please comment and tell me what may have worked for you.

This AM our youngest child told us that friends have seen her sister begging at the nearest freeway underpass. I pray this is her, we have not been able to find her ourselves. I feel I am married to JOB from the bible and that our trials are just beginning.

MrE,

Thank you for posting.

Sounds to me like you fear appearing controlling even when you know you are not. Or do you know the difference?

When you are asked for your opinion, to share your stuff, in the past, it has been used against you. Share anyway. You are controlling when you don't share, not when you do.

How do you feel about your acting transparent?

Write down your passwords for voicemail, email, cell phone...whatever they are...and hand them to MrsE. That's your half. She can refuse to use or remember them. That's her half.

Don't DJ. When the thought entered your head that she was refusing your email password because then she'd have to reciprocate...toss it out. You don't know. You have no idea and to assume will mislead you, a step into fantasy. Fact: She refused. That's reality. Learn to stop there, 'k?

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

Rinse and repeat. Keep that close to your heart, committed to your mind to choose your actions from. Your commitment to transparency is also to self...to know what you do and why you do it...to really know yourself.

You know want her with you all the time because you love her presence...another consequence of being honest finally with what you hid from her for years. Honesty is part of intimacy...and lying by omission blocks intimacy, enjoying who we really are in each other's presence...blocks real love and respect, too, because lying is an act of disrespect, an act from fear, not love.

And lying was about control...so you may have felt very controlled and manipulated for those years you were lying. That is a really misunderstood signal, btw. When we feel controlled we're supposed to look inward, not outward, to see where we are trying to control others.

Break your own cycle...get that signal clearly. When she asked for your input on what actions to take if there was contact, POJA with her...say "I would love it if you would immediately call me, tell me of it, not look, forward it to me (if by email) without reading it, delete it and tell me you're choosing me and radical honesty over OM every time." Whatever is true for you, share. You still won't control her choices...you will have shared your desires, your fear--which is an ACT OF LOVE, MrE. NOT CONTROL.

There are no shoulds/musts...there is choosing to do or not do. She chooses real transparency or not...and her telling you of her hiding secrets outside your marriage, of tearing you down to others, was an act of transparency. Don't miss that in all the noise, 'k?

Great choice on including her in getting paid by your partner. Way to go!! I love how you are doing it...how do you feel for that commitment and action...and how does she?

See what is disrespectful and respectful...when another person defines you, tells you what you will feel, think, believe, how you will perceive...that's disrespectful. Which is why you feel anger...signals a crossed boundary.

Do not react to the anger...acknowledge it and state, "That's a DJ and harms our communication and my love bank. Are you saying you are fearful right now in being honest with me? Are you sharing your own fear with me?" See, not about you really...what we share isn't...it's about us. That's the paradox of human design...what others share with us really cannot define us...only we have that power...we sure can live as IF others have that power. They don't.

Embrace your limits. Seek first to understand (confirm or clarify what you're hearing), then be understood. Healthy, vibrant and connecting communication is based on this change in your beliefs, what you really want. Then the tangents (the anger-driven distractions) lessen and disappear. Until they are gone, don't follow them. They are old ways...meant to be stated, not demonstrated or reacted to, 'k?

I think your choice to not report actions for a few pages on the boards was terrific. I believe both you and MrsE have stayed married for this one reason...you both look at happenings, events, and unite to address them...until those are between the two of you, one attacking the marriage or the other...then you can't unite to address them.

So you feel unravelled and in free fall. Part of enmeshment...coping. Now you have broken a bit off of that by turning inward, addressing your own stuff, not actions solely, not events reactivity...see where you really act from, what you permit or don't...focus on you and where you act from.

Your choice to do this breaks your own old patterns. Life becomes new again...so you can see others' choices in the events, not just the events and "what are we gonna do in reaction to it?" Clarity, not reactivity.

Remember the old adage of "Stop. Look. Listen" we learned before crossing a street? That's what God wants us to do before we act, too. Stop assumptions (oh, the streets clear I'm sure). Check ourselves, become present, see things as they really are right now. Listen (again, don't assume...listen and look to know reality). When we do this, we are already safe, MrE.

Our power. And our limit.

LA

I have limited experience, MrE.

I have the experience of not knowing where my YS18 was or what he was doing, if he was alive or not, for 18 days recently. I didn't go out and search for him.

Last November, I had three days without knowing if my OS23 was alive or dead, nor did his wife. That was really rough, too.

You and MrsE are not alone...parenting is really tough...it's tough parenting babies, toddlers, children, young teens and adults...the parenting changes because the boundaries do when they reach adulthood.

Only way to learn how to be an adult is to be treated as such. Consistently. Very hard to do IME as now a parent of three adults.

Your DD's self is whole, complete and pure...as God made her from love. I have no doubt she is my equal and yours in every way. Thing is, you can't make her see any of it...you cannot define who she is to her...you cannot make her safe or know she's already safe in her power and limits. She hasn't experienced herself as God made her...only as she remade herself.

I think you know this for yourself, and MrsE knows it, too.

I don't know what resources are out there; I've been searching myself. My YS is going into Job Corp. Seemed the best way for him to get away from drugs, his friends (also addicted), and into a structure of self-sufficiency, accountability and opportunity. Means away from us, as well.

We are part of his old patterns, too. Our love and connection transform.

I will tell you not acting from honesty, discounting, dismissing and denying in our adult-child relationship really impacts our children...for then they do that within themselves. Becomes their life experience.

How we change and grow affects them...doesn't make them. Keep that in mind because what we did before we knew better affected them...did not make them.

She's choosing her life...she is not a victim. Speak of her power, her limits, equality and own your belief of her, how you know she's choosing, and highlight her choices. Both what she chooses to do and not do are both choices.

I believe the boundary work you're doing now is God providing you the way to lead by doing. Boundaries are love and how we know we truly are loved.

Your marriage and family are in prayers,

LA

I don't have a problem with it. I don't have anything to hide now. I have no problems telling my W what is going on. Even if she doesn't ask. I go to work call her when I leave and go home and spend the rest of the time with her. I have told her of what deception I had used in the past to stay away from the house and hang with the boys. She is more aware of those old tactics now also. I would much rather spend the time with her anyway she is more interesting than all my friends.



I didn't DJ in my head. She refused to give me hers and didn't want mine either. I left it at that. I never asked again. She did give them to me on Saturday though. I reciprocated with mine. She has told me she has had her cell phone bill forwarded to her work address. This is also a concern of mine. She tells me she doesn't want me calling numbers to maybe get the wrong idea and harass a person needlessly. I only harassed the OM. I may discuss particular numbers with her if there is a pattern. But really I don't have the time or inclination to go through all that trouble. I have no history of doing this even when we shared two phone lines with the same company on the same bill. I can also tell by my W's actions if she is hiding something. So no fantasy on my part about her revealing all of her communications.



She did ask me again and I told her to read what I quoted from you above LA. It appears sensible me. That's what I would like for her to do.



I know the occasional rant of your husband to a good friend is part of friendship. But I do believe there should be limits on how much of a relationship is revealed to outsiders. No matter how good of a friend they are. She has crossed this boundary to the point I find it unacceptable.
She has told me quite a bit about herself the last few days. Some of it I was not aware of but a lot of it I was. Maybe not the intricate details but I had the bigger picture. I'm glad she was able to tell me these things. I could see the pain in her face when she was telling me. I can see her trying to be transparent towards me but I also feel she is holding some things back. Over time when we can regain some trust in the relationship I would hope she would be a little more open with me.
I didn't miss the transparency in all of this either LA. These are things I needed to hear for a long time. We both needed to get it out in the open and discuss all of it. We have a lot of past history bottled up in both of us that needed to be unleashed. Little by little it is coming out.