Is this the trip he was not enthusiastic about?

It's obvious he's not enthusiastic about spending time in shops after paying the admission into a theme park.

While his response is way over the top, is it possible that he just doesn't feel heard, given that he really doesn't want to go, but folks drag him anyway?

Look, I'm not excusing his behavior. But it seems pretty easy to predict. If he's not enthused, he's not going to be fun to be around.

Why are you expecting different behavior if you are doing things that you know he will not be enthusiastic about?

I'm not saying anyone deserves abuse. What I'm saying is it seems insane since the outcome is easily predicted if he's not motivated to be there.

And if you say you are not critical of him, most of the post is critical of him.

So are you saying it's OK for you to go off to the interweb and write your criticisms of your husband here, but it's not OK for him to be critical right to your face when you mess up?

After all, isn't he messing up in the relationship realm, and aren't you being critical of his actions here.

Is it better because you are not yelling at him, or sighing, etc?

Because to me, it's just more of the same. Only yours is hidden from him.

At least have the courtesy to be critical to his face, and not behind his back.

He wants to go on trips with us. He always wants to go on vacations with us; in fact, he wants to spend every single day off of every year with me and D17. Once we had the vacation planned, and decided to drive to save money, and I said I had $500 saved up to spend, he was more than enthusiastic about it, all except for the part where he had to be away from work for a whole week. When you say he wasn't enthusiastic about going, that goes back to our problems stemming from him being unwilling to book vacations until the day before, and not willing to voice his opinion on where he wants to go if I try to book it myself (based on his fear that I can't handle anything properly - and that comes from his own mouth, not me projecting), and then him complaining that this isn't the trip he would have booked. One of the fundamental reasons we're so cash-strapped - instead of trying to save money through our 3 timeshares, he wants to just call up American Express the day before our scheduled vacation time and see what they can get us, no matter how uneconomical it is, because he says it makes him feel important that he can just call up AmEx and get treated like royalty for booking a great vacation through them; which we pay through the nose for. The problem is, he's been doing that for the last 30 years without paying attention to his bills, and he's now $91,000 in debt.

He wasn't unenthusiastic about going on this trip. He was unenthusiastic about me going ahead and booking something instead of letting him refuse to talk about it all the way up to the day before until he calls AmEx, like we have every year before. It's just that now, his credit cards are all maxed out and he can't do that any more. The last time he was in China, they closed off his account and he had no money to pay for anything. He had to call a bank and finagle some money to last him until he got back to the states.

And wasn't I doing exactly what you're saying, telling him to his face, by telling him I can't live with the negativity any more and that I want/need him to get professional help?

cat, if I had been DD17's friend, I woulda been feeling awfully uncomfortable and triggered, and wishing I were anywhere else. If I had been you, I woulda let him leave... h&ck once I realized what he was pulling, I woulda *stayed* in the store *until* he left.

Not saying that's a good idea. Just saying that's what I woulda done, or been tempted to do, for right or wrong.

I woulda made sure I had the car keys, seeing as how there were 3 of us and one of him. Why should the three of you be miserable because he chooses to be miserable?


I don't know about EE, but what I see is you working overtime to keep the peace. I say go on strike - quit keeping the peace, smoothing things over, for him. If he wants to be miserable, let him. His choice. Your attitude is your decision, and you can choose to have a good one.

I think it's good though that things came to a head enough for you to tell him what you told him.

Ok, you are NOT invited to visit us for Christmas! lol


Good for D17.


Have you read the book "Who Moved My Cheese?"


I would be majorly triggering by this point.


If *you* are gonna be mad at *him*??? I thought it was him who was showing all the signs of anger? Is he projecting? (Don't answer that - it's prolly a DJ - but is it, if you're trying to figure things out?)


Holy cow, I'd missed the part about D17 having a friend there too... with someone else there, I would be absolutely totally mortified by now, and ready to D. Not saying, just saying...


Fine, then why is he still in the store? He's there with three females for chrissake, whaddaya expect? He can go ride a gutsy ride, or play some uber-competitive game, or something, and meet up with y'all later.


... triggering here...


You don't!


Maybe you do!!


If you don't play by my rules I'm gonna take my ball and go home?
If you loved me you'd play my way?
or maybe... I expected this to be a chance for us to bond or I had all sorts of fun things in mind and things aren't going as I expected and I resent that?


ITA, just let him go if he's determined to be miserable.


and how was keeping him there better?


This boggles me. I'm not sure how a good time was salvaged from this... was it because you kissed up sufficiently? So, were you rewarding him for being p!ssy? Does he have any incentive for not acting like that the next time y'all aren't doing things the way he wants?


Because the Bad Giver eventually gives way to the Bad Taker.


I prolly would have too.


This is scary! Do you realize that? And *I* am not easliy scared of things getting physical.


Good for you.


Are you kidding me??? What he was *supposed* to do was simply stop being an @ss and realize that grown-ups know they can't have everything go exactly their way all the time, especially if someone else was invited to be their guest!





I'm sorry that your expectations are so low that you call this "decent". But I do hope and pray that it really was productive.


Good for you for trying... I know you know you aren't there yet, and that you know that buying something you didn't agree with is not H&O or POJA. Keep taking steps though, they add up...


I think you know the answer to that last question.

jayne, I hear you about not letting him get away with the childish acts, but it almost always seems to happen at the worst possible times, like on a trip where we'd be stranded, or right before some important event - often triggered by his stress over getting somewhere on time, even though he won't quit what he is doing in time to get there. I see where and why he gets stressed, but if I try to get things moving far enough ahead of time, he just ignores me and keeps doing what he's doing, or even starts another project. Or if I say something he says I'm nagging and gets mad. But if I don't say something, he gets mad cos I didn't give him enough warning. The only times we ever get somewhere on time is when I tell him something is going on 30 minutes before it really is, so when we get there 30 minutes late, we're on time.

I guess it all goes back to what IC said about taking ourselves out of the equation, i.e., having another way to get where we're going and let him suffer his own consequences. It's just that he usually controls the keys when we go somewhere, and he usually has to drive (car sickness if he doesn't drive), like a parent. So nearly everywhere we go, when, how, is under his control. I could fight him on that, try to negotiate, but this is old news at our house. He simply feels I have no common sense and he has to look out for us and make our decisions because I make bad decisions and he has to go up behind me and clean up my messes. That's what he says, anyway.

Just so complicated. Tired of dealing with it.

You make good points, and thanks for pointing them out. You, too, EE. I think so many people having trouble understanding why our situation is so dysfunctional cos they don't allow it to get that way in their own situation. So my kissing up simply is how we get by. And no, I don't expect more, cos I quit expecting more long ago. I see men interacting with their wives, and the wives are happy, even carefree, sure of themselves, happy in their lives, and it's just so alien to me. They would never rush to make sure they're 'busy' when their H comes in so he wouldn't comment about the mess or some other thing; they wouldn't hide writing on the laptop on a forum; they wouldn't turn down invitations to dinner cos they'd have to deal with their H asking why they have to go; they wouldn't think when told their mother and brother are going to visit family that they need to see if they can get their H to agree to let them go, or at least keep him from getting too upset, like he did the last time they visited family (15 years ago).

I've NEVER been like that, and I just don't know how to be that kind of person. So just trying to be honest with him is the first step I can do. It's coming slowly, and in spurts, but I'm getting out more O&H lately than I have in years, so I can only be hopeful at this point.

Yes... that's how my stepfather was. Not sure whether to or


This sounds like you are parenting him and protecting him. Why not just let him experience consequences? You aren't doing him any favors ya know by insulating him.


And *this* sounds like *he* is parenting *you*.

Puh-lease. Car sickness? When I was a kid I got that. So did lotsa kids, who supposedly "had" to ride in the front seat. Funny thing though, we got over it when we had to ride a bus - you can't sit in the bus driver's lap!

Another funny thing, now that there's air bags and it's illegal for kids to ride in the front seat, I don't ever heard of any kids getting car sick nowadays.

Yes, due to the finances and the debt, it is complicated.

But you know, you could've just taken a cab or a shuttle if there was one, back to your hotel.

Yes, once (before I came here and saw the light and started working on my contribution) once H drove off and left me and DS's in the parking lot in a different state far away from friends and family. I was hopping mad. I called my neighbor to cry and vent, I called my mom and tried to get her to call MIL ... not sure what I was thinking, I guess I wanted to "tell on him" or something. He did come back eventually, I think maybe half an hour or so. And then he spent the night in a hotel, that he walked to after driving us back to where we were staying.

If he hadn't come back I prolly woulda taken a cab. I was still on the phone venting to ppl so hadn't gotten to that point yet, when he came back.

I know you're entrenched in this behavior. I'm glad you're taking steps to get out of the trench. I wish it could be easier, or go faster. I'm sad that you don't see that this was so disrespectful and that you deserve respect.

*hugs*

Cat, from one Kat to another, your husband sounds insane. POlease have him locked up. Or at least lock up his money and credit cards. He is killing you financially.

What he is doing with money is about as smart as a welfare mother having more and more children to get a bigger cash grant amount!

Cat, wow, I'm so sorry. I can so relate. I am so sad that you don't have a clear plan to effectively protect you from this today. What do you think a plan to protect you would look like?

Cat, reading your post about the vacation, does it feel the same as before? Do you think that you reverted to some past behaviors? Do you see how you are enabling this? They say, the first time, you're a victim, after that, you're a volunteer. What do you think about that statement.

If YAL had come on here writing about a vacation like that, what would you tell her? Not to get into a car with him any more? To rent two cars? To call the management or the authorities when he broke the door down? To get into IC and stay there? To change her thinking pattern, to decide that she is worth protecting? That she is special and equal to everyone else, and worth protecting?

I was taught to be quiet and make sure everyone else is taken care of; that I'm no better than anyone else; that it's my job to get married and be a good wife to someone; to not make waves.

Cat, you wrote this on the first page of your thread. What kind of help and support do you need to line up to help you change your behaviors?

Would you say this is your voluntary contribution to the dysfunction? Because you looked at and decided against other options? Or would you say that he has the power to make your decisions? I think actions are lining up with that old belief you described from childhood. Not from your beliefs today.




Wow, cat, you said it all.


I've heard that Time takes time. But I also hear that It Works if you Work It. Cat, you've been so helpful to me and to others here. Helping me break down that barrier between thought and action. Reminding me about staying in the moment, that mindfulness. To get past my old fears of things I'm not afraid of anymore, that I still put in charge of my life. What fears can you leave in the past?

jayne, you're right about the parenting. Like EE says, we both have our contribution in the dysfunction. I've read tons about this, I've started talking to IC about it, but at the bottom of it all, it's my fear that keeps me from standing up for myself. Fear of retaliation, fear of yelling, fear of not being able to defend myself in an argument.

And yet, he confounds my perceived opinion of him all the time. When we got home, he asked D17 if she had a memory chip that had been in the video camera, she said no, he said it had his work stuff on it, so I started worrying - about how mad he'd get if we don't find it. So I said I think I have it; I did have one, but didn't really think it was his; just wanted time to look for it so it wouldn't become an issue. Anyway, I couldn't find it when I got home, so I put down the one I did have. When he picked it up and asked if this was the one I said I had, I said yes, and all he said was 'no, this isn't the one.' So I had built up my own perception of him creating a scene, and he didn't. I believe I do create a lot of our issues by assuming what he will do, when he doesn't really always do it. I also think that me telling him I wanted him to go to therapy last week has had an impact on him, cos he's been a lot different since then. Actually haven't had a single instance of irritation from him ever since. In fact, when I had to stop several times on the drive home from Florida to go to the bathroom, he didn't even comment like he used to, lol.

The car sickness issue is part of his pity stance, to keep him as the perennial victim. If he smells something bad, he instantly has a headache. Stuff like that. I have been taking over a lot of the driving the past year or so, and he's starting to not balk at it, so that's part of my steps to regain my identity, kwim?

As far as letting him leave, I was really more worried about how big a stink we'd have to deal with if I 'let' him go, during the rest of the week, since we had D17's friend there. Because of our history with problems caused by other people, I'm always worried one of her friends will go back to their parents and describe him, and those parents will not allow them to be friends any more or, worse, call CPS. Now that she's older, it's not quite as dangerous, but I still worry, ever since that phone call I got from CPS 12 years ago.

I want you to know that I do absorb what you say, and I'm finding ways to incorporate it to make things better. Please don't give up on me, any of you.

Stella, I'm taking steps. I did get him to go to CCCS, and after that, he's turned over all his bill-paying to me, so I am working on reducing his debt. That's a big step, since he's always maintained that he's the only one with the common sense in our house. The past 5 years, with being laid off, not selling our old house for 4 years, me telling him many times how upset I am that I had to quit my job at NASA because of our money issues, and all the other stuff that's happened...it's been a huge wakeup call for him. So I have hope.

I know I'm enabling. I've acknowledged from the start that most of this is bourne from my inability to stand up for myself and my fear of conflict. The worth protecting thing is the hard part for me, though. I'm calling IC this week to get back to our appointments, so I think that'll make a big difference. I suppose I could go to my old friends and ask them for support, but I'm so ashamed of myself for getting this way, and don't have enough faith in myself to think that they'd want to deal with it. My problem, I guess, to take the chance that they'd care. I've been more honest with my mom this year than ever before, so that's been huge. I always tried to hide this from her out of shame that I've let her down. So I need to work on that, too.

Fear of judgment, self-imposed shame, conflict, lack of ability or competence - I think those would be most important. Thanks for making me look at it that concretely.

I didn't mean to say, "most of this". I meant, your 50%, the percent that YOU have the power to change, that no one can stop you from changing. Taking his part onto your shoulders makes it too much to carry. You each have 50%. I saw you focusing on his, where you don't have the power to change that. But I'm so glad to see you back to internal focus, where you have the ability to choose differently. That was pretty fast!

Have you ever read, "Healing the Shame that Binds Us" by John Bradshaw?

No, I'll add it to my list.

I'm always worried one of her friends will go back to their parents and describe him, and those parents will not allow them to be friends any more or, worse, call CPS.

What about making the decision to *not* expose other kids to this? LA says, "What we do to others, we do to ourselves." Choosing not to bring other kids into abusive situations may give you momentum in protecting yourself and DD17.

Cat, that one by John Bradshaw, JustJilly recommended for me, to understand my H, and I put it off for a long time, but it was so much more healing than many others I read. Helped me understand myself, too. And I'm only a little way in.