Somehow, I keep finding my way back here…. I found MB back in 2002.

Unfortunately, my life has never been the same.

I am back today because I feel the depression kicking in again and I am going to fight it every step of the way. Time is too precious to waste any more of it. So, I am back at a place that has comforted me in the past.

Quick overview…. Married in 1991. The first 10 years were GREAT! Had two beautiful sons.  Discovered WH’s A 5/2002 and the rollercoaster began. It was living h*ll. WH supposedly ended the A, but never really committed to our marriage. I spent over 2 years in IC and put everything I had into saving the relationship. Didn’t really get anywhere, but I hung on.

1/06 – discovered that A was still ongoing. Consulted lawyer and ready to file for divorce. WH ended A, insisted that he wanted to save our marriage, went to joint counseling. I was a total wreck and waivered for months about what to do. Finally decided to commit to marriage as WH was showing daily that he wanted the same. Felt good after so many years.

7/06 – found out we were expecting another baby – HUGE surprise. A little girl. Very hard to adjust to this wonderful gift (but SO worth it!) I remember having some physical reactions in the months after dealing with the second D-Day, and I must have gotten pregnant then. We struggled with infertility with our first two children, and were still using protection, so this little angel was determined to get here. She is beautiful!

However, things turned sour again as WH never really adjusted to having another child. Our boys were 10 and 6 years old, so we were well past the ‘infant stage.’

6/07 – discovered that WH had a second cell phone registered to the same woman from the A. I asked him to leave but he did not. Insisted the phone was for work related business. I was still struggling a bit with post-partum depression and was not strong enough to end the marriage – still believing that he wanted to make it work.

Recently, I found a list that I wrote several years ago titled “Things I want in a relationship”:

Go out to dinner/movie/something as a couple (no kids) once a month or so
Hold hands sometimes
Say “I love you” once a day
Sleep in same bed
Wear wedding rings
Attend church together sometimes
Become involved in activities or group of adult couples/friends
Spontaneous kisses
Work together on ‘projects’ – house, yard, etc.
Kind, thoughtful gestures – notes, cards, flowers, gifts, extra help, etc.
Consideration of each others feelings
No name calling/belittling/judging, etc.

These are not unreasonable requests….. they are things that people in a loving relationship WANT to do for each other. However, I still have none of them. None.

WH continues to sleep in another room. Since the baby was born, our intimate relations have also pretty much ceased to exist. We basically live separate lives and only parent our children together. He is a great dad. The boys love him, and by this time, our daughter even has him totally wrapped around his finger. However, we really have nothing in common any more – his priority is himself and the kids. I don’t believe he is having an A, and believe me, I snoop. But, I am so very tired of living this way.

A few weeks ago, I took the kids to a family gathering for a week at the lake – my siblings, parents, nephews, etc were all there. It is a trip we do every year. WH doesn’t love time at the lake, but promised that he would come up for a day or two. Didn’t end up making an appearance. I halfway expected that, so I was surprised at how disappointed I was that he did not show. Spent lots of time evaluating the state of my marriage instead.

I believe it is time for divorce. I feel like I am passing time alongside a person with whom I have no future. I want love. I want respect. I want a partner to share my life with. I don’t have those things. I’ve tried and I just have nothing left to give.

WH has family coming into town for a visit in a few weeks. I have decided to bow out of those gatherings, although I have yet to tell WH. He has not attended dinners, gatherings, parties, etc. with my family for quite some time now – I have gotten used to attending those things by myself with the kids. Actually, he has missed many of those events with his OWN family of origin – I have been the one to take the kids to visit with his parents, go to birthday parties, etc. I get so tired of explaining that he won’t be there – people are kind enough that they have just stopped asking. However, it always hurts when he bails on me at the last minute.

Anyway, I am expecting a blowup when I mention that I want out of the loop for making plans and that I want him to take the kids, but I won’t be participating. I feel guilty for not wanting to go, but something has to change. He should be the one responsible for his family – not me. It is time for me to take charge of my own life.

Why am I here? I don’t exactly know. I am struggling emotionally. I need a change in my life, but it is SO hard to make the choice to divorce. I just don’t know what else to do at this point. I know I could stay status quo, but I am dying inside. I want better for myself – I want better for my children. I want to be happy. I deserve it and I have worked for it. I am so sad that I can’t see another way to get it

Welcome back.

Divorce is hard to come to. At one point, I decided to continue my marriage exactly as it was since my then H had zero interest in changing it, and I had done MC alone for years. Almost instantly I could feel the depression decending on me. Since I've been prone to depression since I was 9, I kind of know when it hits me. I immediately changed my mind. A life on Prozac just because you can't stand the man you're with is not a life. Even after I decided to divorce him, it still took me a while before I moved.

Have you called OW and asked if your husband is still seeing her? He may just have gotten really good at hiding the evidence. It might be nice to have that information if/when you divorce him. It can give you an emotional advantage.

Divorce can be hard. It's tough on the children, but there is life at the other side. Do you really want your boys growing up to treat their wives the way their dad treats you? If not, you need to do something.

Good luck.

This may be a silly question but have you tried to have a heart to heart conversation and tell him that you are at the end of your rope?

It sounds like both of you are in "withdrawal."

ww, why haven't y'all ever counseled with Steve Harley and implemented a program of recovery? If you had a reasonable plan of recovery in place, with set goals, you could have both got out of this marriage by now when you need. It seems like he doesn't believe he can ever be happy in this marriage, which is a huge part of the problem. And as it is, he can't! You don't know how to meet his needs.

I congratulate you on your new DD, but you do realize how horrendous this was to your marriage?

I suspect your H has never really recovered from his affair and part of that problem is that he never fell back in love with you. That is CRITICAL to the recovery of a marriage after an affair.

Another thought is that he is likely still in an affair, but is just sneakier about it. Just because you can't catch him, doesn't mean he isn't.

If I were you, I would:

1. have this thread moved over to GQ11 where there are more infidelity experts [just hit notify at the bottom of your post and tell the mods to move it]

2. hire a PI to follow him

3. call Steve Harley and start counseling!

I probably am in some sort of withdrawal myself..... I feel like I have to close myself off emotionally or I will not be able to get thru this. If I don't harden my heart, I am afraid I will lose my resolve, I'll listen to his empty promises, and I'll fall right back into the place I am now.

It has been 6 years since my nightmare began..... I don't regret any of my fight for my marriage - I have a beautiful daughter that wouldn't be here if I hadn't stayed. This little girl has brought me a joy that has saved my life in some wierd way....

I don't regret my efforts. I can leave this relationship knowing that I did everything I could to salvage the relationship.

Greengables, how did you do it? How did you get the strength to make the break? How long did you wait to tell your husband and how did you do it? Did you move out, or did he?

It is so very hard dealing with all the emotions - let alone the logistical parts of making this work. Add to that the importance of helping my older children cope.... it is so overwhelming.

Melody -

Thanks for your insight.

We did have a plan for recovery and were going to MC. We had goals and seemed to be moving in the right direction. But, as always, WH eventually stopped going to MC and I ended up attending those appts alone - AGAIN. It did wonders for my personal recovery, and was a huge factor while dealing with the pregnancy.

Yes - I realize that the pregnancy was not what this marriage needed. It was not planned and was not a joyful time for us. As a mother, it is so very difficult to admit that to anyone. But, I am a christian person and I choose to believe that God put this child in our lives for a reason. I went to the dr. afraid that I had a tumor - instead I had a child. Please forgive me if I sound defensive about this subject - it has been a hard road. No, I didn't get pregnant on purpose; I was contemplating divorce from a cheating husband at the time! I basically went thru the pregnancy and delivery by myself. It was so very hard. But, I choose not to dwell on those things - I choose to focus on the joy that this child brings to my life, to my family, and to the world.

I know in my heart that this CAN be a fulfilling marriage. I have read all the books and tried everything reccomended to do my part. I can't meet his needs if he won't communicate to me what they are! Believe me, I have tried.

It has been 6 years. I have not had any of my needs met. I listed them above - they are not unreasonable. My love bank is drained. I don't intend to sound selfish.... but, is there not a point where I can expect something in return? What about HIS efforts to meet some of my needs?

I have learned that I am responsible for my behavior and that I can change myself. But, I have also learned that I cannot force WH to change his.... HE is responsible for that, isn't he? He continues to choose sleeping in another room, he continues to choose cards with the guys over anything with me, he continues to choose making himself a priority instead of nurturing our family.

I have spent years in counseling (as well as thousands of dollars), and I am still just as lonely in this marriage as I was 6 years ago.

I may be reading too much into your response, but I feel like you believe I haven't done enough to salvage this marriage. Is that what you meant? I did not have the A, I stuck it out for years, I went to MC and IC, I read all the books and tried to meet WH's needs. What did I miss?

WTW

But did absolutely nothing for your marriage. And that is the problem with marriage counseling. It has the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines, at 84% FAILURE RATE. Marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have a higher divorce rate than the gen population. Nor do they understand the dynamics of adultery, which is critical to recovering a marriage after long term adultery.

My suggestion is to try something that REALLY WORKS: Marriage Builders marriage coaching. They know how to save marriages. They know how a successful marriage works. They know how to interest a reluctant spouse.

I am not saying there are any guarantees, but if your marriage can be saved, they would be the ones that could lead that recovery. I think the basic problem is that he is not in love and your MC doesn't know how to effect that in your marriage.

Were any of these events POJAed with him? What kind of events does he want to attend? If at all? It seems like you lead very separate, independent lives, which is a huge part of the problem.

Is MB not Marriage Counseling? What do they offer that is different from MC?

Our MC was very in tune with LTA's.... WH really engaged in recovery for a short time, but that, too, eventually fell off his priority list. He was well aware that I continued with the counseling, but chose to no longer participate.

My problem at this point is that I don't think I am in love with him any more..... my desire to salvage this relationship is at an all time low. I need something in return at this point - and WH is not willing to even try. Honestly, he thinks things are great right now!

He is happy - he comes and goes when he pleases, spends money without even looking at the checkbook, takes the kids to do things whenever he pleases but knows that I will take care of them when he wants to do something with his friends. I do the housecleaning and grocery shopping. If I don't have anything cooked for dinner (after working full time, and driving the baby to/from daycare every day), he just stops and eats out with the boys and leaves me to fend for myself. He took an 11 day vacation with the boys this summer and left me home with the baby. Spent tons of money that we didn't have set aside for vacation, but claimed that it was his right to take them and go because he is a teacher and he has this time off - it is HIS vacation. I don't know how he is getting his physical needs met - he is certianly not interested in me.

A divorce will honestly come as a suprise to him at this point.... he thinks life is good. I guess it is for him.

I have tried so hard to engage him in some sort of relationship repair - he is not interested. You mention that the problem is that he is not in love anymore.... what about me? Why is it STILL my responsibility to continually try and meet his needs when he has no interest in reciprocating those actions? I am not in love, either, at this point. Why is he off the hook and I continue to bear the responsibility?

Mel:

Her H does not attend these family functions because it got his W and kids out of the way so he could hook-up with the OW.

He did it last month while she was at the lake, and will do it again when HIS family is visiting.

I think i makes perfect sense for W2W to make herself scarce that week. Let HIM deal with the kids and his FOO.

Should she call the Harleys and get some MC going that works?

Definately.

But her WH is still Wayward, and liking it.

I see serious Plan B time now.

W2W:

Do you work? Is your H the sole-breadwinner? Your WH has a LONG road to travel to get to a point that you two WOULD have a M.

Please fill us in on some of those things.

What do you think is your H's top 3 EN's?

Your list for yourself WAS NOT unreasonable. MOF, I would say it could be the bare minimum for a marriage.

LG

Melody and others are giving you great advise. But don't forget, as a BW, you are entitled to divorce this man. It's your choice. Regardless of what you decide, MB can help you with recovering your marriage AND personal recovery. It's worth looking into either way. It gives you a plan to act on while your mind and emotions are still a blurr.

What do they offer that is different? EVERYTHING. They know how to save marriages, your MC doesn't. Marriages that follow the MB principles are successful. Whereas, your typical MC is a dismal FAILURE. [84% failure]


Oh, I just thought you wanted to have a marriage. I can see why he is not interested. He has no hope of falling in love. He gets alot of demands and sees alot of independent behavior [lovebusters], but no hope. I didnt realize you didn't think it was your responsibility.

Even so, if you want to try something that WORKS for a change, call up Steve Harley.

Yes, Melody - you hit the nail on the head. We lead separate, independent lives.

WH is not interested in POJA. Not interested in anything except what makes HIM happy. His exact words regarding why he didn't want to come and see my family at the lake was that "it's not fun for me." Never mind that it was something that was very important to me or that our kids take great joy in those activities. If it is not fun for him, he won't participate.

I used to work my life around what HE wanted, but a person can only do that for so long. I had lost my sense of self and was losing out on life. Out of necessity, I eventually started to engage in activities by myself because he was leaving me out of everything he did.

For instance, he plays poker on Friday nights with some other families. He has never invited me, even though there are other ladies that play. He takes the boys to play with the other families kids, but leaves me at home every time. Just me (and now the baby)- home alone on Friday nights. I have asked many times to come along, and he insists that I would not fit in because I am not a good enough player. Now, I do know some of the other families, so I know he is actually doing what he says. But, it is just so disappointing that he obviously does not want to include me in his recreational activities.

I don't know what else to do to stop this cycle - and still salvage some quality of my own life in the process.

This is one thing that my wife complained about, and I really don't know the exact circumstances with you, but I think there is often some misunderstandings about this. Yes, a husband should be involved with his family and extended family. However, being at family events with my family drives me crazy. They just are different from me now, and I keep it to a minimum as much as possible.

With her family, I feel like the 5th wheel. I can't keep up with conversations about golf and hunting, as I do neither. And I didn't grow up with them, so I can't go over old stories.

And then there is kid's birthday parties. Most husbands I know going to very few of these, but somehow wives seem to notice the one or two husbands at a party, and extrapolate it as if every husband was there.

Anyway, sorry I went off, but the point is, do you know why he doesn't want to go? Maybe if there was some understanding, he would be more willing to go, knowing that you might help him out when he feels out of place or something. As Melody said, POJA it.

Melody -
I can't continue to be a doormat here. I do want a fulfulling marriage. I didn't have the A. I have done everything I can to salvage this relationship. Why are you letting him off the hook and placing the blame for failure solely on me?

Me ears are open..... it hurts, but I'll listen.

In other words, you are only interested in what makes YOU HAPPY. *YOU* are not interested in POJA. You are interested in doing what you want to do. That is a huge lovebuster that has contributed to the conflict. POJA does not mean that he is supposed to comply with your wishes and vice versa.


That is NOT POJA. POJA does not mean you give in to his demands or he give into yours. It means you do things that you are both enthuisastically agreeable to.

Your marriage has never been in recovery, WW.

I am also a BS, and understand how you look at MB concepts as "letting the WS off the hook"...it is an issue with me as well. It seems if we as BS's start to try to meet EN's and all that, that we are giving the WS a free pass...doesn't it? It's a hard thing to get past, I know...but, if the MB way is tried and true, and you want to improve your marriage, what do you have to lose?

Please listen to me. Marriage Builders really does work. I am not blaming this on you! I am blaming it on BOTH OF YOU. I know you tried, but you have not been given good advice, my friend.

You cannot force your H into your marriage at the point of a gun, that is correct. BUT...you can attract the man into the marriage by stopping the lovebusters and by giving him HOPE of falling in love. He is not in love, you are not in love. And neither of you KNOW HOW to effect this.

YOU ARE GROPING AROUND IN THE DARK.

What I am telling you is that this is where Dr Harley excels. He is different from all the others. He knows that the KEY to recovery is being in love. And he knows how to effect this. I am not just saying this, I KNOW this is true because it happened to me and my H and many others here.

You have too much to lose to not try it out. If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know, I would go to a Marriage Builders weekend and get into coaching with Steve Harley. If your marriage can be saved, they can help you.

Don't forget..... it has been 6 years!! 6 years of me trying to meet his needs. Trying to find a place in WH's life.

I am the primary breadwinner in our household. However, WH has no respect for my career or my responsibility. He keeps part of his salary for himself while mine all goes to the family budget. He believes he is entitled to that for some reason.

His top needs are SF, physical attractiveness, and probably domestic support. However, he is not interested in SF with me since the baby. I do a good job of keeping my appearance up (lost the baby weight, stay current, and am reasonably attractive). I do everything I can to keep the house in shape, although it never seems to be good enough for him.

I feel like you believe I am giving up too easily.... maybe I am. I just don't have anything left to give right now so I am stuck in this horrible black hole..... I don't know how to get out, and I can't fathom a life like this forever. The only light at this point seems to point towards divorce. And, it hurts.