Here's where I'm puzzled. Both are supposed to agree enthusiastically. And the H and/or W is not supposed to do something that the other person doesn't enthusiastically agree with.

How far does this extend?

I play soccer. What if my W were to say, "I don't want you to play soccer?" Do I just go "Okay, honey...since that's what makes you happy, I'll quit playing soccer."

I'm asking because it just seems strange that one would just be happy that the other person is happy even if they have to give up something that is important to them.

POJA isn't about losing to let someone else win, it is about both winning. It has to do with brainstorming to find a solution that both can agree to enthusiastically.

Imagine two older women, sisters, that share a house after the death of both of their husbands.

They have but one orange in the house and both of them want it. Neither is willing to give up the orange and so they seek a solution. They negotiate to what seems on its face a fair and equitable solution. They come to the same solution almost everyone would find so easily. It's the very same solution we are taught almost from birth...

They cut the orange in half...

The one sister begins to eat her half of the orange and when she is done throws the peel away. They other drops her entire half into the trash and walks away in disgust. Neither is happy and yet both are equally unhappy. They agreed to the solution to their problem. They ended the conflict and each got a fair share of the orange. So what was the problem and how could they have reached a better solution, one which would make them both happy instead of both unhappy?

The problem was they went for the easy, quick fix to end the conflict. They sought an end to the conflict rather than a solution to their problem. Neither one knew what the other knew and so they disagreed from different perspectives without ever really asking the right questions. To avoid fighting, they both gave up what they desired and both were unhappy.

But if they had discussed the problem they would have both learned that they could both have exactly what it was they wanted. Because one sister wanted the orange so she could peel it and eat the sweet fruit inside...

But the other wanted to peel the orange and use the peel for baking a cake. She didn't even want the fruit. They both could have had 100% of the orange!

But they sought an end to the conflict rather than information about the other's position and the result was that one got half of what she wanted and the second had too little to do what she wanted it for and just threw it all away.

POJA only works when we work together until we both agree. It is NOT intended to give either one veto power over the other's life. It isn't about asking for one person to give up something, but about asking each other "what can I give you that would make you happy?"

Dr Harley says that when we negotiate we should brainstorm with abandon. This is really the key. It gives us information about each other's position and once enough information is known, a solution can be discovered that is a real win-win. But it can only be arrived at by seeking an answer rather than the end of the dispute.

It also requires patience. Frustration only adds to the problem and it must be agreed before negotiation begins that enthusiastic agreement is a requirement rather than compromise.

We usually think of negotiating as giving and getting. Taking and sharing. I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine...

But what if what I really want is to have you rub my neck instead of scratching my back?

What it might take is for neither to happen, but something completely different, say going together to get a massage or I get a massage and you get a new back scratcher...

That is a POJA solution to a disagreement, not "what you do makes me unhappy so I want you to be unhappy too."

The real question is why would she ask you to stop playing soccer? Could it be that you are neglecting her and the kids or maybe the house is falling down from lack of repair. Or could it be that there is a new single girl that has been coming to the games that was once your girlfriend and so your wife doesn't want you to spend so much time without her and with this other women heaping praise and admiration on you.

Or maybe what she means is that she doesn't want you to play soccer this weekend because she has a birthday party planned for one of the kids.

Your argument against POJA fails because you don't have an issue with agreeing. You just have an issue with not getting exactly what you want.

In a marriage there would be no reason to simply ask someone to give up what they enjoy so much unless there is some valid reason. Discover that reason and you can find a solution.

And maybe you'd both enjoy mountain climbing and you wouldn't miss soccer at all if the two of you went to climb in the Alps all summer.

Look for the answer and not an end to the conflict. You don't have to avoid disagreement. You have to resolve disagreement. And either one giving at their own expense will not give you resolution but simply more conflict and disagreement and a silo full of resentment.

It really boils down to how really committed to being married are you, each of you. Do you really want to make each other happy or do you just want the other to make you happy?

Or put another way, what WOULD you give up for your wife if she had a valid reason?

Would she really ask you to give up something that gave you so much joy just to make you miserable.?

If you can't answer the first "anything" and the answer to the second is "yes" then you have much bigger problems than POJA.

Mark

That was a great explanation. I appreciate the response. I'm not really in a situation where she wants me to give up anything; I was just trying to wrap my head around the concept.

I understood that.

Have you considered the question "What would I give up for her?"

or

"What would I never give up for her?"

The answer to these is an indicator of your own commitment to the marriage and to her.

What if you had a favorite shirt and she hated that shirt. Would you stop wearing the shirt?

Or would you insist wearing it because it means so much to you?

When we do things that make our spouse unhappy, we are killing their love for us, since Independent Behavior is a Love Buster. If we can avoid these things, they will be more in love with us and more likely to want to make us happy as well.

Not give and take, but give and get is the goal of POJA.

Mark

Hi Mark,
That was a great explanation of POJA. I'm a new member and originally posted on the Resolving Conflict board re:an evil stepsister and my inlaws killing us.

Your explanation clarified everything about the POJA concept for me, but I just don't know how to apply it. Unlike "kilted," I do have a situation.

It's complicated, but I'll try to be brief....

My H has a step sister. She's 33 and her dad married my MIL after my FIL died; we're not dealing with a mixed family situation since childhood. It's only been 10 years.

The SS and my H had a tryst of some sort (not an A, but a single event) about 8 years ago and it's still haunting me. I try to let it go, but when she's at family functions and her name's constantly brought up, it's hard for me to let it go.Constant reminder, you know, and she makes it a point to seek him out and slather herself on him.

I need to digress back to Feb. 08 a bit here for background info. We are amateur winemakers as are our best friends. THe 4 of us talked about a vacation to CA wine country and after much discussion and calendar comparing, we picked the last week of Sept. No reservations were made in Feb., however, our friends had to put in vacation requests at their jobs for that time, which was granted to them.

Move up to April, when it's announced to the family that the SS is getting married -- yup, you guessed it -- the last week of Sept. I am left out of H's family communications; they deal directly with him at work on phone, no calls to our house for fear that I might answer. As a result of that, I learn of the nuptials through another 'outlaw' in the family who puts up with the same crap I do. (a whole other story). I mention to H about SS's wedding, and he says "oh yeah, it's set for Sept. 27 in VT." I point out to himi that that's when we're on vacation in CA. He insisted it was not. Every time the trip was brought up by friends and visitors to our house, he changed the subject and refused to talk about it with me or anyone else.

Then he gets a "save the date" marriage notice in the mail the first week of June. I find it buried deep in his mail pile, face down. It's addressed to him only, not Mr. and Mrs. and he doesn't tell me about it. At least not until I bring it up to him three weeks later. What started as a calm, normal conversation ended up in a huge fight -- on July 4th weekend.

This is where the POJA comes in, however, too late, but I'd still like to know what to do because there will be many more instances of this popping up in his family.

First off, I was pissed taht I was excluded from the notice. I think that my H should have called someone in his family to find out why it was addressed only to him. I confirmed that his two brothers' notices came addressed Mr. and Mrs. WHen I suggested he find out about it, he refused.

Then I reminded him of our vacation and he still insisted I had the dates wrong. I believed, at this point, that he was in denial of the conflict for that very reason: he hates conflict and having to resolve things, especially where me and his family are concerned. A few weeks ago we had a meeting with our friends to iron out the details of our trip. That's when he claims to have certain knowledge of the dates crossing and announced to our friends that he has a family wedding that he "has"to go to because it's "his mother's husband's daughter getting married on 9/27 and he has every intention of going so as not to disrespect his mother."

I feel that since we made these plans with our friends and they already secured the time off from work, and we found out about the wedding threemonths later, that he should not go to the wedding continue with our vacation plans, "out of respect for me."

Here's what's really happening: we altered our travel plans to stay on the East Coast and will be driving so we are not locked in to prepaid travel arrangements, and we will be coming back the day before the wedding so that he can turn around, repack, and run off to VT without me (we live in CT) the night we come back so he can please his mother. Yup, guessed that one too: there is a definite power struggle between mommy dearest and me with H in the middle.

Side note: H is one of six kids...2 bros (whom I get along with fine and their wives) and 3 sisses (oldest I get on with okay, middle one pretty good, youngest one -- who is my age -- can't stand her. She acts like the up and coming matriarch of FOO.) The SS is not included in the sib count since I don't consider her family, just excess baggage.

Because there's strong bonds between mommy and girls, my situation is exacerbated three-fold seeing as they all enjoy having a hand in telling the boys in the family what to do. They call the shots, bros are supposed to obey, and us outlaw wives are supposed to go along with all that they dictate. Not fun.

HELP!

kt, I have a book I would like to recommend to you. It's called Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. by Wayne Levine (http://bettermen.org/better-men-store.asp), who has an organization designed to help men in their relationships. I love its premise, which basically is this:
Every man (and woman) should determine what his non-negotiable 'items' are - those things that he really feels are so important in his life that he would fight to keep it or even ruin a relationship to keep it. Soccer, for example. Or reading. Or volunteering. Or visiting Mom. Whatever it is. You and your wife sit down and work out those things that are that important to you. She agrees that she won't decide that you should no longer do these things, like telling you you can't play soccer any more. Because of that, you remain happy with the relationship, and your happiness spills over into everything else. In other words, if you both agree you'll play soccer every Saturday morning, you shouldn't have a problem with coming home and taking care of her list of honey-do's that afternoon. You're happy cos you get to do what you like, you don't resent her for trying to take it away, so the whole relationship is a win/win. It works for her, too. If she needs to go to the gym 3 times a week, you should be willing to watch the kids so that she can go, without her having to beg you. In return, she won't resent you or nag you about your soccer.

Basically, it's just a pre-arranged agreement on what the marriage looks like to both of you, so there aren't disagreements and resentments down the road. You respect each others' N.U.T.S.

Cool stuff.

What if the source of conflict really is unresolvable? Say (hypothetically), your elderly mother is a controlling, difficult tyrant that has badgered you and your spouse for years. She's insulting, demanding and steps on every last nerve. Eventually, your spouse says - that's it, I've had it. We will NOT expose ourselves to her poison any longer. Understandable? Sure. BUT, mom is elderly, you have no other family nearby, she needs care but is not ready to go into a home and neither she or you can afford it anyway. As difficult as she can be, she is your mother and some of what makes her behave this way is related to medical conditions (alzheimers maybe) and/or medication. Her health is failing enough that you doubt she has more than a few years left anyway. How could you live with yourself if you cut her off now? What do you do?

Outlaw, I'm currently separated, and living with my mother, and thus I get a lot of motherly advice against my wife. Since I live there and she's my mother, it's been hard to stand up to her. However, once my wife told me that it was chicken-sh*t for a man to allow his mother to disrespect his wife like that, it really hit home waht was going on. Since then, I do not tell my mother anything about our relationship. She can't be trusted.

Point is, I think your husband should know that he is not only disrespecting you by allowing these things to happen, but he is also losing your respect. Atleast for me that, hit home.

Also, I imagine he really doesn't like being controlled like this, and could probably use some help and encouragement in setting up the proper boundary. I don't know if you guys have other issues, or if he would be willing to go just to get this issue straightened out, but that would help I think. If not that, perhaps writing it all out showing how you feel about it and understanding his side as well could help clear things up.

Just curious, do you think you would be ok with all of the plans as long as your husband made it clear to his family that you deserved more respect..that he fought for you?

I really think men and women don't quite understand each other sometimes. I recently had a convo with my wife about when guys would come on to her, or same disrespectful things. I would always get upset, but she didn't want me to say or do anythigng because it didn't bother her, and it was easier to let it go. She didn't want me standing up for her when she didn't need it. What she didn't understand, and I didn't say till recently, was that when someone disrespect a man's wife, he is disrespect that man as well. Now she understands why I need to do something about it.

Actually, maybe that could be something you could use as well. His family isn't just showing a lack of respect for you, but for him as well.

Just my opinion, but I think the situation should definitely bewell discussed so that all thoughts are completely understood. I would make sure my wife knows that I don't consider the disrespect to be acceptable. As well, I would let the mother know that the disrespect is not acceptable, and although you will continue to take care of her, you will not talk to her if she is going to behave that way. I'd do this even if she is not capable of understanding.

My Dad spent the last few months of his life in a nursing home, and I saw that the caregivers took this attitude with the patients. As long as they behaved, they were treated with respect. If not, then they were treated like spoiled children.

I agree with mel. Also would add that the two of you should sit down and face facts about what your life will entail for the next 10-20 years. Be honest about having to deal with her, but agree that it has nothing to do with each other, so that you don't get frustrated and take it out on each other. Unified front and all. Oh, and be consistent when you interact with her.

Thanks for the response, guys. I will check out the N.U.T.S. book that was mentioned.

This site is really awesome. I would say, and my W would agree, that we have a healthy M. But no reason not ot make it even better.

Whoa, Mel, did you ever hit one of the nails on the head!!! I AM losing respect for his allowing this stuff to happen. Believe me, what I wrote before is only scratching the surface. I've dealt with this garbage for y-e-a-r-s, but never said anything until the last few years. I'm not taking it anymore.

You made me think of the two sides of this that started when my H and I were actually children. We didn't know each other way back then, but of course shared as adults what our childhoods were like.

In my house, my dad adored my mother. He would swallow glass and walk barefoot on flames for her; and she for him. I never saw two people so committed to each other and their children. They did everything together, for each other and for us.

My mom went through some rough times with her in-laws, too. Not like me, but upsetting nonetheless. Her MIL was old and ill and couldn't live alone, so her children decided that they would share the responsibility between themselves to care for her and did so by having her live with one, then move to another, etc. My mother went along with this because he knew how much her MIL meant to my dad.

Then once grandma moved in, she started getting mouthy and nasty to my mom, treating her like a slave, purposely making messes that my mom would dutifully clean up. When my dad found out what was going on, he threw his own mother out of his house, telling her that no one, not even his mother, would be allowed to treat his wife like that.

I heard that story over and over throughout childhood and thought, "I hope someday I'll find a prince like my daddy who feels the same way about me."

Hmmmm, well I'm finding out that life is no friggin' fairy tale and my prince can be a nightmare.

On the flip side, my H would tell stories of his dad's drunken rages toward their mother and his sharp tongue quick to criticize her. He was never physically abusive (not that my H knew of), but he was verbally and we all know that can hurt worse.

So, my point is, (yeah, I talk alot) we grew up with our parents' examples of how spouses treat each other. Do any of you think that that maybe has something to do with who we are today and what our expectations are in marriage, ourselves, and each other???

And Mel, you asked if I'd be okay with the plans if my H made it clear to his family that I deserved more respect. Probably. But it will never happen, I can guarantee it. Unless I do something drastic. He's already suspicious about me being on this forum. He doesn't know what I'm doing on my laptop; I think he thinks I've met someone online which makes me hysterical (with laughter). Striking up a romance, one-nighter, long-term affair -- whatever -- whether on line or in the flesh, is the LAST thing I want to get into. I have enough problems.

Another thing you said that I found curious was that you can't trust your mother so you don't tell her anything now. My H tells his mother EVERYTHNG; all her kids do. And if they don't tell, she asks them. She knows more about what we have done/will do that I do. In fact, when I see her to talk to, she tells me stuff from months prior that I never knew about. One time he told her about a week-long business trip he had to take. How did I find out? From her, when she called our house a week before he was supposed to go. He told her about the trip a month prior.

When we see each other and chat, she starts asking me about all kinds of stuff in my/our lives. I was so taken aback one time, I asked her point blank, "How the hell do you know THAT?"

He told her, she said. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I flat out told her, "well, since you already know everything there is to know, then I guess we have nothing further to talk about now, do we?" and I walked away. I thought for a split second she was maybe trying to make conversation, but, she's not stupid, I'm sure she could figure out that if she wanted to hear it from this horse's mouth then she should have simply said, "So, what's new with you?"

Next opportunity we have to discuss this respect thing, I will bring up your suggestion: that they're disrespecting him as well as me. And thanks for being at least one guy out there who knows that when you have a wife, all others come second. I feel that just as you should have a united front when you raise your children, there should be unity in all other aspects of your marriage, too. Or at 48 am I too old-fashioned?

No. You're right. In the early years of my M, my W had a bad habit of telling her mom everything. I don't think she realized how much it bugged me until I told her. She quit doing this. I think we all realize somethings are best not shared with others.

She also had a bad habit of letting her mom run me down and not saying anything. I never said anything even though it bugged me tremendously.

I remember one time when her mom started going behind me and criticizing me. She was getting particularly mouthy. I turned to my W and demanded to know why she allowed her mother to speak to me like she did and would never allow anyone to talk to her without saying anything like her mother did to me. At that point, I told her I would not come back to the house until her mother was gone or could keep her mouth shut. It finally clicked for her and she immediately became proactive at shutting her mom down in her belittling and judgement behavior towards me.

Sorry to TJ, but outlaw, do you realize it is NOT up to him to decide to respect you? It is up to YOU to create that boundary. As suggested, inform him that every instance of disrespect will be met with you leaving. And DO IT! It's up to you, not him. See the difference?

What is the difference between giving up something for someone at your expense, and giving up something for a valid reason? This confuses me.