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#2109756 08/14/08 07:15 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
OP Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,015
brief t/j in response to a direct question. Disclaimer: (Not intended to provide any advice to Mike and is solely intended as a response to a question put to me by another posting member who chose to post the question on this thread.)

Originally Posted by catperson
brief t/j
Hmmm...I hardly think he considers ANYTHING religious as a bible thumper, since he himself refers to the Koran; therefore, he'd want to kick himself off his own thread. More likely, he wants people off his thread who show their own disdain for anyone who doesn't follow their agenda.

From Wikipedia:
Bible thumper (also Bible beater, Bible basher, Bible humper) is a term used to describe Christian fundamentalists, or anyone perceived as aggressively pushing their Christian beliefs upon those who do not share them. Its target domain is broad and can often extend to anyone engaged in a public show of religion, fundamentalist or not.

See also:
Anti-Christian discrimination
Holy roller
Jesus freak

I hardly see someone who is concerned for his wife's religious well-being who contacts her minister as using God. I see him as someone with compassion for his wife, despite what she has done to him. Pretty much the opposite, kwim?

"More likely, he wants people off his thread who show their own disdain for anyone who doesn't follow their agenda."

And what agenda might that be?

Catperson - To refresh your memory and to address your "mindreading" ability I NEVER said one word about HIM converting to Christianity, nor did anyone else who may have "mentioned" religion.

What I DID was to ASK him for information (i.e. was his wife a Christian and was he a Christian). I asked specifically to KNOW whether or not to offer any biblically based advice, especially since his wife is not here and he is.

He ignored and/or refused to even answer the questions and then started in on "bible thumpers" AFTER finally revealing that he is a "closet atheist," whatever "closet" means.

In the meantime, he is trashing his wife and venting his anger all over the board while simultaneously USING HER pastor to ostensibly "bible thump" her. He seems perfectly fine with USING religion when it suits his purposes and very defensive if anyone asks about it or mentions it TO him.

What is an "unknown" in all of this is how that same sort of attitude might be some sort of "contributor" to the "marital atmosphere" that existed, given his self admitted prior use of "MB methods and counseling" to help with previous problems in his marriage. Not having been here while he was doing that "program" many years ago, I don't know WHY he sought counseling "back then," nor do I know if might have been based in the same sort of "use MB" to get him what he wanted sort of way.

"I hardly see someone who is concerned for his wife's religious well-being who contacts her minister as using God. I see him as someone with compassion for his wife, despite what she has done to him. Pretty much the opposite, kwim?"

No, I don't know what you mean. I see absolutely NO "concern for his wife's religious well-being."

What I "see" is from HIS postings (and to a lesser degree from the unresponded to by him postings of other members slamming his wife). He is angry, hurt, furious, lashing out, uncertain, conflicted, etc., etc., etc., about the whole affair and the "unfairness" of forgiveness and recovery of his marriage. THAT is understandable for ANYONE who has been a Betrayed Spouse.

But you are giving an opinion here that is an "apologist opinion" for USING others to get what he wants when he does not believe in it and refuses to have it be any part of his life. Remember, an "atheist" is one who DOES NOT believe in ANY God, whether it is Hindu, Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or ANY religion that HAS a "god" or "gods" as part of their belief system.

Personally, I think someone SHOULD be talking to his wife about her accountability to GOD for her actions as a person who professes a belief in Jesus Christ. But I base that AS a fellow believer concerned about a fellow believer, not as a means to "manipulate" a desired response from her, as he seems to be doing by using her pastor to tell her what a "bad girl" she is.

Since you cited Wikipedia as your means to try to make "Bible Thumper" somehow less of a pejorative term than the way that Mike was using it, allow me to also quote from Wikipedia as the "source you recognize" for "definitions of terms."

I was NOT, nor was anyone else, "Bible Thumping" Mike.
But he did use that term, and used his reference to the Koran, to "Bible Bash" anyone who mentioned God, especially as religions might relate to his marriage and marital situation.

Anti-Christian sentiment
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anti-christian sentiment is a negative bias against Christians or the religion of Christianity. Anti-Christian bias can be held by individuals or groups, and may be the result of fanaticism or bigotry leading to prejudice or discrimination.

Accusations of anti-Christian sentiment can also accompany valid political and social opposition by individuals or groups to social and political movements motivated by a specific Christian sect's doctrines, and attempts at secularism or cosmopolitanism in Christian-dominated societies.

Anti-christian expressions

Hate crimes

The vandalism or defacement of Christian symbols or property is one form of the expression of anti-Christian sentiment. If the defaced or vandalized object is considered holy by Christians, such as the Bible or the Cross, the case becomes that of desecration. Such destruction may be illegal if it violates property rights or hate crime laws. Arson directed at Christian meeting places or churches, is one such hate crime.[1] Churches are a target for hate crimes for various motivations, including anti-Christian sentiment.[2] An aggravating factor in the burning of a church in Minnedosa, Manitoba was that two of the arsonists were fans of National Socialist black metal music with anti-Christian themes, according to the Crown.[3]

Some elements of the black metal scene declare open hatred of Christianity. Headliners of the black metal scene have claimed responsibility for inspiring (if not necessarily perpetrating) over 50 arsons directed at Christian churches in Norway from 1992 to 1996[4]. Many of the buildings were hundreds of years old, and widely regarded as important historical landmarks. The most notable church was Norway's Fantoft stave church, which the police believed was destroyed by the one-man band Burzum, Varg Vikernes, aka "Count Grishnackh"[4]. However, Varg would not be convicted of any arson offences, until his arrest for the murder of Mayhem guitarist Øystein Aarseth (Euronymous) in 1993. The death metal group Deicide, known for their anti-Christian sentiment, released "Once Upon the Cross," composed entirely of anti-Christian songs, including "Kill the Christian."
Anti-Christian bias in politics and culture

See also: Persecution of Christians

United States

Christians of various denominations, including Ann Coulter and Jerry Falwell, claim that American society and the United States government discriminate against Christians. Commentators and Christian activists speak out against the increasing secular nature of American society, and what they see as the minimizing of formerly dominant Christian traditions, e.g. the War on Christmas popularized by Bill O'Reilly. Christian news sources often report incidents of censorship of Christian messages or expressions.

Irreverent or, by some opinions, inappropriate depictions of Christian symbols in American art have received considerable attention and outrage, with works such as Andres Serrano's Piss Christ resulting in moves to cut public funding of art exhibitions that offend Christian symbols, and demands that offensive works be removed from private galleries, such as the Catholic League's 2007 campaign against Cosimo Cavallaro's My Sweet Lord, a 200 pound chocolate sculpture of Christ. The Lab Gallery where it being shown removed the work after it received anonymous death threats related to the sculpture's exhibition.
Accusations of anti-Christian bias in groups that have made no official statement denouncing Christianity is a common tactic associated with the Christian Right, in the United States and other countries with politically-active evangelical Christian populations. For example, members of the Democratic party introduced a bill to the House of Representatives in 2005, opposing "coercive and abusive religious proselytizing" at the Air Force Academy. Representative John Hostettler, a Republican closely associated with the Religious Right, was quoted as saying, "Like a moth to a flame, Democrats can't help themselves when it comes to denigrating and demonizing Christians."[5]

With the rise of conservative religious movements in U.S. politics, opposition to those movements has often been characterized by those movements as anti-Christian, since they oppose the imposition of that particular brand of rural revivalist Christianity into law.

Saudi Arabia

See also: Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is a state that purports to follow the precepts of Islam. They include a number of serious restrictions on Christians, including but not limited to, and in no particular order:

·prohibition on Bibles [6]
·prohibition on churches, and Christian services in general, even prayers conducted in private [7]

In Saudi Arabia, diyya, the compensation of victims of bodily harm, is practiced as part of Sharia law. Payment due depends on the religion and sex of the victim. The compensation due to Christians and their families is half of what is due to Muslims.[8] This means a murderer can buy off his crime, and avoid further punishment. Killing a Christian or a woman, according to Islamic law half as expensive as killing a Muslim male. The death penalty in Islam is only for murderers who cannot pay, and is likewise enforced on poor people who cause an accidental death (e.g. in a traffic accident).


Several Indian states have passed anti-conversion laws primarily to preventing people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003 Gujarat State, after religious riots in 2002 passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.
In July 2006 the Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.[9]

In August 2006 the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days' notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.[10]

In February 2007 Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[11]

The recent wave of such laws in Indian states has been described as a gradual and continuous institutionalization of Hindutva.[12] Some extremist Hindu groups accuse Christian missionaries of using inducements such as schooling to lure poor people to the faith, and have also launched movements to reconvert many tribal Christians back to Hinduism.

Most of the anti-conversion laws are brief and leave ambiguity under which persecution can be justified. Legal experts believe that both conversion activities and willful trespass by missionaries upon the sacred spaces of other faiths can be prosecuted under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code, and as such there is no need for anti-conversion laws by individual states and they should be repealed. A consolidation of various anti-conversion or "Freedom of Religion" Laws has been made by the All Indian Christian Council.[13]

Hindu extremist attacks against Christians, especially in the states of Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, and Orissa, have occurred in recent years in response to missionary activity by evangelical Christians.[14] According to a report by the Center for Religious Freedom the attacks include the murder of missionaries and priests, the sexual assault of nuns, the ransacking of churches, convents and other Christian institutions.[15]

Graham Staines, an Australian missionary, and his 2 children were burned to death by a mob led by Dara Singh who had previously been involved in the cow protection movement and had earlier targeted Muslim cattle traders. He and his associates in the crime were active sympathisers of Hindu nationalist groups. The 2007 Orissa Violence again witnessed the persecution of Indian Christians by Hindu extremists. The attacks were targeted by Vishwa Hindu Parishad and other Hindutva groups at the Christian community in retaliation to the conversion of Hindus to Christianity. According to careful estimates, at least 70 churches and 600 houses were attacked and torched by Hindu extremists.[16]

Human rights groups consider the violence as the failure of the state government that did not address the problem before it became violent. The authorities failed to react quickly enough to save human lives and property.[17]


See also: Christianity in China

Christianity was banned for a century in China by Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty after the Pope forbade Chinese Catholics from venerating their relatives or Confucius.[18] Currently, the ruling Communist Party maintains tight control over all religions in China.

United Kingdom

In 2006 London Police Association placed an ad in a newspaper depicting a picture of a Bible beside a pool of blood along with the slogan 'In the name of the Father' together with details of an increase in homophobic violence. Over 50,000 complaints were made to the police but after an investigation by the Metropolitan Police, they announced there was insufficient evidence to bring any charges.[19]

A check-in counter worker for British Airways was put on unpaid leave after refusing to hide her cross necklace[20], although the airline had permitted the wearing of turbans and hijabs.[21] One Member of Parliament specifically complained of 'anti-christian discrimination' and over 100 MPs signed a House of Commons motion on the subject.[22] British Airways later lifted its ban on visible crosses.[23]


·For the 1998 multi-faith memorial for the Swissair disaster, the Canadian government allowed Jewish and Muslim religious leaders to quote from their Scriptures during their speeches, but mandated that a Christian pastor could not read from the Bible or mention Jesus. [24]

·Canadian Heritage Minister Sheila Copps issued a calendar of all days, weeks and months "important" to Canadian heritage. The calendar omitted Christmas and Easter. After complaints from Christians the government recalled the calendar. [24]


In Indonesia in 2006 Islamists beheaded three Christian girls, because of their faith. The perpetrators did not receive the death penalty but were punished with 13 years prison each for creating unrest. The murderer claimed that the beheaded girls were "Ramadam trophies" [25].

On going to jail, Hasanuddin said "It's not a problem (if I am being sentenced to prison) because this is a part of our struggle."[26] Hasanuddin was the leader of the regional Islamic terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) for the Poso district.[27]


Judaism traditionally has taken a very harsh view on proselytizing. Ever since the formation of the Jewish state, orthodox Jewish communities have come under scrutiny for the negative stereotyping and scapegoating of Christian minorities in the region, up to and including violent acts against Christian missionaries and communities.[28] Israeli liberal journalist Isak Letz has chronicled numerous instances of Orthodox Jewish groups becoming increasingly active in their opposition to Jews converting to Christianity, including violent acts against converts. These attacks often go unpunished by Israeli authorities.[28].

In general, Christian missionaries limit proselytism in Israel due to Christian Zionist beliefs. However, Orthodox Jewish groups have exaggerated claims of proselytism as a pretext to attack Christians in the region.[28]

More recently, Jewish fundamentalist groups in Israel have stepped up attacks against evangelical Christian movements. In May 2008, hundreds of New Testaments were burned in Or Yehuda, Israel after having been collected, according to Or-Yehuda's deputy mayor, in an effort to stop attempts to distribute Christian literature in the city.[1]

Further reading

·David Limbaugh. Persecution: How Liberals are Waging War Against Christianity, ISBN 0895261111
·Marvin Olasky. Prodigal Press: The Anti-Christian Bias of American News Media , ISBN 0891074767

Now please do NOT direct any further comments or questions to ME on Mike's thread. That can be done on another thread if so wished.

Mike, sorry for the t/j in order to respond to someone's question.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 387
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 387
This was moved on request.


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