I agree. That doesn't mean her years of abuse (physical and emotional) are not factored very heavily into the equation. Even if this guy is having and affair (which I suspect) I see this poster as causing the majority of the issues in her marriage. His failure or inability (he feared her) to effectively deal with the abuse is a problem...but hopefully we never reach a day where we start blaming those that are abused for the torments heaped on them by their abuser.

As for her showing effort...I congratulate her for doing that. Just because he isn't here doesn't mean he is doing the right thing. He appears to be showing effort as well.




Emoticons are available here for a reason. If you don't like their inclusion here, please email the moderators and make your feelings known. At times a picture is a more appropriate response...it gets the point across without too much banter. Bushleague...yep, I would agree.

Well, maybe seeing one of my H's emails will help see his side of it:

I don't have answers. I do know certain things. The good things we had motivated me to stay with you. The bad things between us motivated me to leave you. The bad things between us have motivated me not to come back. The way you make me feel when we talk motivates me to not want to talk to you. The way I feel when we talk motivates me to not want to meet with you face to face.

When I say that I'm not averse to talking to you, it means that I would like to talk to you if I didn't have to dread repeating things that I've already told you.

When I said that I had felt unimportant, I didn't mean that I always felt unimportant. You took that out of context. What I said was "I don't want to dwell on the things that occurred between us that made me so sad, that made me feel so unimportant, that made me feel so hopeless." As you can see, that's different than me saying that I always felt unimportant.

Maybe to you life is either "horrendous" or "jumping for joy." Maybe for you, snap decisions are a natural thing. Not for me. I don't react the same way to things that you do. Life with you was not horrendous - but it became unacceptable. You admit that you didn't make me and my feelings enough of a priority. But now you constantly impeach my right to not put up with that. Okay, so I cry. Okay, so I don't jump for joy. You must think I'm just this really hardened person. The way you put things, it's like you think I'm just this compassionless, selfish [censored] or something. I'm really HURT that things got to the point where I felt like I had to leave. You think I didn't have dreams of us? You think I didn't spend many sleepless nights wondering how I could get you to not say mean things to me? You think I didn't constantly struggle to think up ways of making you happy, of trying to be romantic, of trying to take more initiative, of trying to make you feel better about our life, our house, our marriage, of me? Then you don't know anything. And never will. I was so desparate to believe in your ability to become considerate of my feelings that I actually scripted your apologies for you. Who does that?

You feel like I'm stringing you along. Again, I don't make snap decisions. But the interaction we have had, including this e'mail, makes me feel much the same way I felt when I was with you and (metaphorically) banging my head against a wall trying to get you to listen to me, understand me, and care about what I'm trying to say. You need an answer now? Then my answer is that I'd rather be here than there. You need for me to jump for joy and go running to a lawyer? I won't do that, because I'm through trying to pattern my reactions around what I perceive you want them to be. I'm not going to do that any more. I tried being myself, then I tried being who you wanted me to be, then I didn't know what to try any more.

I know you're hurting. And I feel bad about that. It hurt me to hurt you. But I also know that I feel much worse for you than you ever felt for me.

I don't want to debate this any more. I am way beyond fed up having to defend myself to you. It seems like I've been doing that for way way way too long. You're right - communication, perceptions, and pride have long been our problem. The problem remains.

MMM,

FOO - family of origin
SF - Sexual Fulfillment (an EN)

Thank you for sharing H's email. Was this in reply to your so-called nasty one?

What are you hearing in his email?

LA

I never said that I don't like their inclusion. I use them myself. I didn't like the way you used that one, in that one instance, and I said so. I think it was a childish response.

I made a mistake by responding to derision with more derision. I should not have met you on that level. I will not do so again.

MMM - May we see the email that precipitated this response from him?

No, this was not in reply to the "nasty one" -- I sent that to him about a week later after I saw some stuff missing around the house that he obviously took enough time to pack up which really showed that he had been planning his departure for some time.

In his email, I get:


[list]
[*]he is REALLY hurt -- even now that he left [*]He loved me a whole lot and had dreams for our future (at one point anyway) [*]He isn't going to be pushed into any decisions or actions cause he's tired of answering to me [*]He didn't feel valued. [*]He is very angry at me.

I had a good man and I screwed up big time.

Here is the email I sent to him that preceded the other email:

The thing is . . you think you are being perfectly clear when we talk but things you say are sometimes confusing and contradictory -- I feel like I have to read between the lines:


"I am not adverse to talking to you" -- does that mean you tolerate me or you enjoy talking to me or you couldn't care less but don't want to be rude? So I don't know whether to call or not.
"you felt unimportant" -- okay, a couple of weeks ago you said that you were my rock and only support system -- if that is true (which is true -- you were my rock), how would that make you feel unimportant? that would make you feel essential -- which you are.
You cry -- I would think that if life with me was that horrendous, then you would be jumping for joy now that you are out of here AND that you would have been in a lawyer's office the next week. That's what I expected which is why I saw a lawyer.
"I don't know what the future holds" versus "I think we should get on with our lives" : So which is it -- is there hope for our marriage or not? Do you just need some space and then we can take some baby steps to rebuild our marraige? I feel like I am on an emotional seesaw.
"I love certain things about you": Do you love me -- yes or no? Are you in love with me -- yes or no? You have hurt me deeply and my trust in you is broken but believe it or not, I love you and I am in love with you and I can find it in my heart to forgive you for walking out and abandoning me so secretively. Can you forgive me for my transgressions?

So, yes, I have heard everything you have said, I'm listening but I am having a hard time piecing it all together. Like you said, love has never been our problem -- but communication and perceptions and pride have been big barriers.

Unfortunately, sometimes you have to face the past in order to move into the future. If you don't analyze past hurts and mistakes, how can you avoid them? That was my problem -- I never really meditated on what I was doing so I kept making the same mistakes over and over. So that is why I keep trying to talk to you about this -- not to make you feel bad -- I don't like to hear you cry -- it breaks my heart.

I really feel like we should talk face to face -- calmly and rationally. I could come out your way . . . I know you didn't want me to have it but I have your address. . .it was on the new mortagage insurance information. I won't show up unannounced or anything so you don't have to worry about me stalking you.

Anyway, maybe I'm just an idiot to keep trying and not giving up on us. Some folks say to just face reality: you've checked out and don't love me anymore. Others say to hold onto hope even it is just a thread. I don't know what approach to take anymore.. . . .only you have the answers.

Yes, believer, I would say that my family background is certainly the cause:

father: alcoholic, physically and emotionally abusive to mother
mother: was a bulimic and as a result has been ill most of life in one way or another; says she is going to leave -- never does. Been married 33 years.
No siblings
Went to live with maternal grandparents at age 11 -- the day my dad punched me. Grandparents cared for me and put me through college.

Basically, my relationship with my dad is superficial. He says he missed out on being a dad when I was little and that it is too late now so I don't get any support from him whatsoever. My Mom had spinal cord surgery two weeks after my husband left -- so she has her own set of issues. Basically, my maternal grandma is my only support system and friends, of course. My husband and his family were my true family -- he taught me so much about life -- how to have fun, how to love, that I was beautiful and special -- and how did I repay that? By being a jerk.

Still, family background is no excuse for continuing the behavior; sometimes it takes a paradigm shift to have it smack you in the face. I didn't think I was patterning my behavior after my dad but to some much lesser degree, I was. Trust me, he is downright evil -- the things I've done pale in comparison.

Hi JL

I was just looking over past posts and I think you asked me some questions that I didn't answer:


As far as SF goes, well, neither one of us really complained about too much or too little. It was good when we made love; I wish we had done it more but it was nothing I ever nagged about. He never made an issue of it -- in the afterglow, we would always say "man, we need to do that more often." Of course, when he freaked out in December -- then the sex totally went away. I asked him about it a few times and he would say "i'll let you know when I'm ready" so I let it go. Since he left I asked him why we stopped and he said "I was afraid you were going to yell at me." Seemed kind of weird but who am I to argue?


I think I didn't have the pressures of marriage and a home. We had a lot of fun in the dating and early days-- lots of laughter and tenderness and love. I guess after we got married I felt this enormous responsibility and I felt like it was mine alone. It was worse after we bought the house and I had big buyer's remorse -- everything seemed to break in the dang house in the first year after we bought it. Needless to say, I didn't handle those problems very well.


My taker was in overdrive, I think and his giver was in overdrive. Which I see now was exhausting him. His love and tenderness seemed almost limitless. Then in December I think his Taker took over and now it is all about what makes him happy. The reverse happened to me -- when I saw how I was hurting him, my Giver stepped up to the plate. I took whatever he was dishing out -- just to make him happy.

He is saying he can't make a rash decision and yet you are pressing him on it. He tells you how he feels about talking to you and yet you want to make him talk and tell you if he loves you.

You are still trying to control him, and he can feel it.

I haven't had any contact with him since 7/28 -- I had apologized for my nasty email and had to send him a scanned image of a dental statement that came to the house.

He accepted my apology but neither of us has initiated contact since then. . .I've been too afraid.

I would actually think that is a good thing for the time being.

MsMade,

Part of me want to suggest that you simply leave the man alone. He has requested it. You continuing to try and contact, Yes I know you have not lately, is symptomatic of someone trying to control him. It may or may not be your intent.

But, taken what you have said and what he said, here is what I see as your problem.

He felt that you really did not care about him. Therefore, he left. Now you seem to care. Why? IN his mind, it could be one of two reasons. 1. You don't want to lose control of him and having him do things. 2. You want him back so that YOU can leave him.

My guess is his filter and experience does not allow for the solution that you actually do love him and have changed.

Given that you two led such independent lives, I doubt there is someone that he trusts that knows you well enough to convey information to him about your changes, your wanting him in your life, the fact that you actually do respect him.

Finally, the reality is likely to be that at this point he loves you far less than you love him. He has withdrawn, and you need to read up on how to deal with withdrawn spouses.

I have no idea if this marriage can or should make it. I have no idea if he is having an affair, although he is probably very vulnerable.

I will say that his email, conveys that whether he cares or not, it is of little moment to him. He doesn't need you like he once did.

I know this sounds harsh, but I have also noticed that you don't seem to be doing a lot of reading, or evaluating to come up with a plan. I am out of time, but I want to hear what your goal for your life really is.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Have you spoken with his parents or family and solicited their help and/or views?

Sorry c00per he just made me see RED this morning with that comment! I apologize to you and everyone else for stooping to his level!

Also sorry for this threadjack

HI JL:

I've read the basic concepts and just picked up a copy of His Needs, Her Needs from the library.

As far as a plan -- do you mean a plan to get my husband out of withdrawal or a plan to move on without him? I have no idea how to get him out of withdrawal -- anything I do seems to irritate him. I've read "How one spouse can lead the other back to intimacy."

I have talked to my mother-in-law several times -- she insists that he doesn't tell her very much. She said she isn't going to get in the middle of it and if it ends in divorce, then I'll have to deal with it. It won't be easy but it happens, she says. My MIL and FIL divorced and remarried 14 years later.

Ultimately she says that my H has to figure out what makes him happy and it clearly he is not happy in this relationship or the one he had with his former girlfriend. She said he's not depressed when she talks to him. She said that he will eventually make a decision but I have to decide how long I am willing to wait. My in-laws have not initiated any contact with me but they will talk to me if I call. The last I talked to her was July 8th, I think.

I love and care for my husband very, very much -- I always have and always will. I let stupid, insignificant things get in the way. I want to have children with him and grow old together. I didn't think I was controlling him. . .but everyone else here, including him, thinks I was.

I did change and he saw it .. . he said he didn't believe it was real. You're option # 1 is probably spot on -- he said I was changing only to get him back and that once he said he was staying then it would all go back to the way it was before.

I don't call him to control him . . .I call to try and keep in contact and find out where this relationship is headed. But I just feel like I should give up . .. that it is hopeless. You said it yourself -- he doesn't need me and he likely doesn't love me.

I just don't understand why he hasn't filed the papers -- it seems like he is so done.

lol.

"I love and care for my husband very, very much "

I am sorry but I do not see any "real" love here on your part. Perhaps you have never learned what real love looks like. From you to him:

I see dependence
I see scrambling for control
I see demands
I see orders
I see pushing for answers
I see pushing for something
I see feeling sorry to have lost him
I see you really want to smash and control him some more
I see you are feeling lost without him to BULLY
I see you out of your comfort zone'
I see you needing help for your childhood issues
I see you not knowing how to love a person
I see you not realizing what it is like to love someone

You may be feeling that you are in love with your husband. But what I see, it may not be love. Or, you may not be ready to LOVE anyone at this time. A relationship to you,, a normal feeling relationship, might be full of you abusing someone. This may feel normal to you. If you want this type of relationship, then meet a dysfunctional man that loves to be dominated and abused. They are out there.

If you want to learn to really love and to be loving in any relationship, then get counseling and plan on going for years to discover why you don't treat people better. You can also discover how you can treat people well, and show ONLY love to others. It will be a learning experiance if you are not accustomed to it.

I feel it is not totally your fault that you are unable to love others. But it will be your fault if you don't get help in how to love. Professional help.

You deserve to learn how to love others. If you can truly learn to love other people,... All the time,... Then you will eventually meet a nice person again to have a relationship with and be able to love them without hurting them.

You gotta change from being destructive in your relationships. Are you mean in the other parts of your life and with other people? Or are you only mean and hostile behind closed doors.... with your own husband.

I hope you learn for good to stop being mean and aggressive and really heal from your childhood abuse and to permanently learn to LOVE.... softly, lovingly, nicely, and ALWAYS.

If you ever are able to learn to LOVE others, they will come running to be around you. If you do not learn this...then people will RUN away from you as fast as they can. Since they will see how destructive you are. No one wants thier heart, mind, emotions, and life damaged by a damager like you.

I believe you can CHANGE and really learn to LOVE others. And be a DIFFERENT person, a better woman. But you will have to get the help you need RIGHT NOW in order to change. And if you cannot recognize when you are hurting a person, your husband, then you will not be able to stop the hurting of him.

Are you getting counseling now!? Please get some now!

If it were me I would list everything I thought I did to hurt my husband on a piece of paper, and look it over.

See how much there is. If you come up with one or two things, then you are not seeing it yet.

If you come up with 8 pages of stuff, then you are starting to see how you are with others. And how and in what ways you hurt your husband and drove him away....

Also write out all the actions against those other people you have wronged besides your own husband. I am sure he is not the only one.

This will help you take some action and get some help. I believe you can heal and become loving with some deep psychological help. I am surprised your husband stayed as long as he did with you, a very difficult person to take. He must have really loved you to stay and try and work it out. Too bad you did not see what you were doing to him much sooner. But you can still change. If you really want to.

And do you see you may have done permanent damage to your husband? He may be ruined forever for any relationships now. Not only may he never come back again(to be damaged by you) but he may never be really normal again.

After enduring abuse and bullying and critisizing and insults, for years, from a spouse, a person is changed. They are not the same fun loving spouse they once were. They are defensive and have to watch out for hurting women now.

What a sick world it is that the spouse who claims to love you forever is the one to ruin, systematically, day by day, your inner heart and psyche.

That is what you did to your husband.

Now be alone for a while to reflect on your life, who you are, and get help to be a better person.

MMM,

I trust you read Stella's post to you. Sounds pretty harsh doesn't it? In ways it is. However, in another way it may be the most useful post you have ever gotten. Why do I say that?

I suspect that you are NOT as Stella mentions at least not totally. However, and here is the important part, what you just heard from her is what she "picked up" from your posts here. Is she right? Is she wrong? It doesn't matter. What matters is that somehow, someway you have left that impression.

What that means is really simple but not easy to sort out. Perhaps she is dead on, and that means if you want a happy and good marriage you really need to learn about what love is. If she is wrong, it means you really have to evaluate how you present things, this is crucial to do with regard to your H and men in general. If it is a mix, most likely case, then learning and evaluating will help you alot.

She stated among other things that your attempts to contact him were in fact attempts to manipulate him. Of course they were. So that isn't the issue. Well it is but I will get to that in a moment. Most if not all human interaction is about manipulation of another person. Men buy gifts for their W's because they want them happy. Why happy, well there are lots of reasons, but happy is better than depressed, angry, sad, crying, etc. So us guys try to manipulate our W's into being happy if we can. Now the reality is happy is mostly an internal state, but even us thick guys understand enough to know it doesn't hurt to do something to "help" the situation.

Men also know they get manipulated by women. We often enjoy being manipulated, because it is usually something we would do anyway, or we know it would make them happy. BUT, and here is the point most often the manipulation is a win-win. People don't mind being manipulated if the intent is a win-win. I don't think he receives your attempts to reestablish the relationship as a win-win. His perception may be right or wrong, but your job is to change his perception and that startes with evaluation. Take inventory, consider some counseling, talk honestly with some of your close friends and get their feedback. Look for consistencies in their feedback and your own self-assessment. I think you will learn some powerful things.

You really need to think about this very carefully. Yes, you have FOO issues, but you are not genetically imprinted with them. You can overcome them, you can use them to motivate you to become a woman any man would love to have as a W.

You also said something in our response to me that I thought interesting.
Now, I know one data point does not make a trend, but two data points starts to suggest a trend. What do you see? You MIL is right on one level, but this suggests that HE has some issues of his own. You cannot fix him or his issues. All you can do is evaluate yourself, your view of things, your actions and make changes that YOU will be proud of.

I cannot tell you this marriage is dead. I am trying to think of the lady's name right now, but cannot come up with it. I think you can find it on either Pepperbands success stories, or Ace's success stories. Anyway she had an affair, they divorced, and he was very very withdrawn from him. Eventually, they reconnected and remarried. It took at least a year and a half for this to occur, AFTER their divorce. You might find it interesting reading.

All any of us can tell you is to make the best of what has transpired...LEARN FROM IT. You do need a plan to address his withdrawal, and step one is simply to work on yourself. The steps that follow depend on the situation at the time. You are not ready yet for reconcilliation but you can be.

Must stop. I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

I don't think your H sees your efforts as you trying to achieve a win-win. Loving people most often focus on how to make it a win for the spouse and yes a win for themselves.

If ever a man is hurting, it is your husband. I can really identify with him to a point. At least in my case, the woman who was emotionally abusive was a girlfriend and not a wife. So, in that way I am better off than he is - no legal complications.

For some reason, we men are supposed to be able to take emotional abuse from women and just shrug it off and forget it. Why women think that is beyond me. My former girlfriend called me more names than I can remember. When I picked her up for a date, I never knew if we would be having a romantic evening together or I would just drop off an angry women and return home feeling like rubbish.

I finally ended it.

It will take time for him to feel emotionally safe with you. You have taught him well, and he has learned his lesson. Give him credit for that. Can you reverse it? If you apply what you have learned here, there is a chance. All you can do is your best, and learn from your past mistakes.

No, I don't think he is having an affair. He is simply hurting.