Thanks......I agree....without TRUST there is nothing. And his texting totally destroyed the TRUST. He doesn't get that...he thinks I am making a huge deal out of something that was just a stupid mistake on his part. I see it much more than that....I see it as part of his addiction as well as a testament of his inability to protect and care for me. Honestly, I feel psychologically RAPED over this...and I have told him so.

I think addicts have a very hard time with empathy...they are so use to thinking only of themselve.
Anyway...we shall see.
I will indeed draw tight boundaries and if we can't get a Joint AGreement in the next week or so...I will walk.

You guys have been such an incredible support....you just have no idea. To know that others feel the same way I do about this issue...that I am NOT 'crazy' or 'paranoid' means so very much. I am so much calmer and determined with respect to all of this.

Thanks again.....

Ok. I see your point here.

All I'm trying to offer you is that keeping you feeling safe, loved, etc, should not be a POJA. He should be doing that (keeping you feeling safe, loved) on his own, to begin to restore trust in the relationship. He shouldn't have agree to an alternate method of communication, he should just do it because he wants to make this relationship right.

I've found the only time my husband has had a hard time with empathy is when he was acting out. (FWIW, he's was acting out for 2/3rd of his life so far..)

Excellent point....you are right...it should NOT be an issue to agree upon. I can not feel safe if he continues texting with that woman.....and the last time I requested he TOTALLY STOP all texting he refused and was furious with me...told me he already told her to stop anything but texting for business purposes and that was enough.(I am beginning to think he is more concerned about hurting her than me.)

Maybe I am making a bigger deal out of this than it is....but it really bothers me that he would be texting with this woman AT ALL given what I found....I dont' think he can just take it back to a business level.....the texts turned sexual, he deleted them so I would not find them and then he lied about it when I asked.
I would think he would want to make certain there is NO QUESTION as to his behavior. He knows she is toxic and he also had to admit on his last polygraph that he finds her sexually attractive.
This woman is very manipulative and I fear that he will fall right back into the trap if he does not draw boundary lines that are very very tight....I don't feel they are tight enough......
Do you agree with me???

And.....the other day I learned that another woman......one that I KNOW he finds attractive has been coming to him about her marital problems!!! I was aghast and told him he had NO BUSINESS discussing marital issues with his employee...that he should simply recommend she find a good counselor to talk to as (1) he is not qualified and (2) it is disrespectful to that woman's husband for her to be discussing her personal issues with her boss.
Again...he told me I was paranoid and he would continue listening and giving advise when asked. Another Ego stroking!!!

So...again...boundary issues are a problem for me in this relationship......
I feel that I need to tackle the texting issue first because that will let me know how SERIOUS he is about protecting my feelings.......if he wont' agree to finding an alternative that works for both us....I have my answer as to his REAL level of COMMITTMENT.

I personally don't think your partner will ever be at a point where he has no sexual feelings, except for you. I think it's unrealistic for him to say I'm never going to notice/talk to an attractive woman again. What is realistic for him to say is "I'm not going to use women to further my addiction."

I found this on another board I look at:
Not just an addict but everyone if they start to bend their rules of life they are in deep doo doo. That is where "addictions" start. "A Rule Bent Is A Rule Borken." You either live with it or die with it.

I'm sure your SO has done the circle thing, (abstaining from inner circle behavior, avoiding middle circle behavior, etc.) I would think talking to married women intimately would be a middle circle behavior, no matter if they are attractive or not. So, yes, i would agree with you that his boundaries aren't working.

But it's up to him to live within his boundaries and decide what they are. It's then his doing to live with the consequences when boundaries are or are not crossed. It's up to you to take care of your own boundaries, not worry about his.

Well....his boundaries aren't working for me......he thinks that he can limit his texting with this employee to 'business only' and that is not going to give me any comfort. I want his contact with her to be through the office phones ONLY. So...maybe that's my boundary which, if it doesn't become his boundary, means we are just not going to be able to continue this relationship.
I thought through the Policy of Joint AGreement and Radical Honesty....BOTH contracts which he SIGNED just 2 weeks ago, we could get through this. Dr. Harley's book says that if the unfaithful partner is willing to sign those two documents, then there is HOPE for a better future.

So....I am trying to focus on THE FUTURE and let go of the past
If my SO can change HIS BOUNDARY LINES so that they are THE SAME as mine in this instance, then we can move on.

I am not asking him to NEVER find any woman sexually attractive, I am simply asking for him to NOT act inappropriately with ANY woman.

Thanks for your thoughts.

What are your boundaries? What are you going to do if he continues the texting?

If he won't stop the texting AND/or calling her cell phone to 'supposedly' discuss work(most of the contact was texting) then WE ARE DONE.
He told her to stop texting him unless it was business related and thus, in the past 8 months, she has texted only twice and he responded once. There is no texting now because she is on maternity leave.......
Still.....I want ALL texting to stop.....there are viable alternatives that are NOT of a personal nature and that do not allow secrecy or flirtation.
This may be overkill on my part but I can not continue without him totally blocking her from personal contact......he has destroyed my trust.

You want to make sure you are ready for that ultimatum...

Do you have any smaller steps to start with? Or a deadline? How will you know - are you also saying you want total transparency (recommended) such as you get all his passwords and get to check his cell phone?

I am ready. Coming to this board and getting assurance that I am NOT CRAZY...LOL....and that everyone here also believes that it was an Emotional Affair has strengthened me and I actually feel extremely CALM and AT PEACE for the first time in months!!!
I owe that all to YOU GUYS!!!

Yes...on the transparency. I thought we had that. I have access to his phone records....I just wasn't looking at them. I did so only because of a gift that effected his bill...I was going to straighten it out and happened to note the texts messages. When I started looking back over the past 6 - 7 months.....there were numerous ones.

As I mentioned before, this woman is TROUBLE and TOXIC. I have been uncomfortable for a very long time...

I will know both by the phone bills and by the polygraph he regularly takes.

Again....it is just ridiculous that I am at this place anyway.
He knew it was wrong...that is why he deleted the messages and LIED about their content.
I can not live with a LIAR...I thought he was serious about REcovery and building a life with me. He knows that I can not and will not tolerate Dishonesty and/or Sexual behavior outside of this relationship.....

I can accept this as a 'slip' ONLY if he shows me that he is SERIOUS about cutting off all possibilities for it happening again and is willing to make my EMOTIONAL SAFETY the most important thing.

Thanks for your comments......
I really appreciate them.
Please feel free to share any other pearls of wisdom ...I truly value the insight.

I don't know if I would consider his repeated texting a slip.
If he's slipping for 6-8 months, I'd be questioning his "recovery." Even at 8 months, that's what, a bit over half of how long he's been sober. If these were truly "slips" he should have learned something about what triggered him and how to avoid the triggers in the future. Has he shared with you what his triggers are and how he is to avoid them? If he can't, can his therapist? (In my case, my h's therapist shared my h's trigger with me.)

Do you get the sense he's snowballing his therapist? Have you met with his therapist-to share your concerns? My husband's therapist had an open door policy with me.

Then there's the issue of "slipping" with one woman, but two?

Have you considered that this behavior is simply a redirection of his addiction, even an escalation, if his MO previous to this was looking at porn?

Can you get some distance from this? I'm not trying to be rude, but I feel like you are looking at a few trees instead of the whole forest.

I'm not sure if I would consider this a slip. From my own experience, my exBF said he would stop his excessive texting but just got more secretive and went further underground. By the time I'd had enough, he was texting up to 6 women several times a day, not several times a month. One day it went pages and pages on the cell bill. That's when I told him "me or them." He said I was trying to control him and was overreacting to his "friends" so I walked.

My suggestion is to continue to keep your eyes wide open and to be confident in yourself and make the right choices. It may turn out to be the hardest choice in your life (it was for me), but in the long run, a worthwhile one.

Keep us posted on how you're doing. You have our support

That's a good point....it did go on FOR MONTHS.
He sees it as just 'joking around'...that it was nothing more.
I have tried to explain to him that IT WAS MUCH MORE THAN JOKING AROUND TO HER and that she knew EXACTLY what she was doing.

And yes...I believe he lied to his therapist and to me as he told us BOTH it was like joking around with 'one of the guys' but unless he is sexually attracted to men, that was a lie.
I honestly believe he is lying to himself. It was mostly jokes...but they were of a sexual nature and some of the remarks were totally inappropriate and could even appear to be asking for sexual favors.(It's really hard to tell)


He hasn't done anything regarding the other coworker......other than 'give her advice' when she comes into his office which has probably been no more than 2 or 3 times in 2 years.
So..it is really just this one coworker I have an issue with at this point.


I do know some of his triggers...I am not sure I know them all.
As for his counselor...my SO is not very uncomfortable with me talking to him.....he says that I am trying to control his Recovery when I talk to his counselor. Of course...when he takes a polygraph I do talk to his counselor then.

I have spoken to his counselor AT LENGTH over this issue of the texting and his comment is that Recovery is gradual and there are slips and new ways of thinking about issues that will come over time. In essence, he doesn't change over night.
He has made tremendous change, I agree with that...still I can not put up with any sort of personal contact with this coworker in the future. It is too painful and I dont' trust his ability to judge her behavior......she is a total snake. I want him to CHOOSE..... by doing so...I feel he sends a strong signal that he will no longer jeopardize his committment to me.

What do you mean can I get some distance? I don't live with this man...he is roughly 1 hour from me so mostly I see him on the weekends. Are you suggesting that we take a break from each other?

Thanks for your comments......they give me some 'food for thought' on the definition of a 'slip'. To intentionally deceive me FOR MONTHS probably doens't need to be classified as a 'slip'.

Thank you SO MUCH for your support.
My SO did get very angry at me when I continued to PUSH as to the text messaging until I found out they were sexual in nature. Told me I had a REAL PROBLEM....LOL......but I knew something wasn't right.

It really bothers me that he deleted the messages FOR MONTHS and continued texting with her FOR MONTHS...knowing that I would find it unacceptable......that is what REALLY HURTS.

I could never do something like that to him...NEVER.
I truly believe it is part of the addiction....and it should be a WAKE UP CALL to him...it certainly was to me.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

I don't personally buy that slips are a necessary part of recovery. If he's constantly slipping, his recovery plan isn't working. If he's seeking the attention of other women, his recovery plan isn't working. If he's acting in a such a way that he has to hide his behavior from you, his recovery isn't working.

My husband has been sober from porn for 18 months. He stopped cold turkey. MBing took him a bit longer to stop (another month or so.) He's never done anything that can be remotely taken as sexually inapropriate since he's been sober.

His attitudes have changed. His actions have changed. This is how I judge his recovery. I don't judge his recovery by his words (or if it came to it, a polygraph test).

I've also been working hard to stop my co-dependant/not so good behavior. I'm learning what real intimacy means. I'm not the person I was 18 months ago.

I feel like you are concentrating on a small thing: whether or not he will cease contacting his co-worker.

If he agrees to stop contacting her, but your SO is not doing well in recovery, what difference does it make? He's still not recovering.

My SO was doing well in recovery in all areas(or so I thought) until I discovered this texting with this one coworker. All areas of his life were improving.

I don't feel that contact with the coworker is a small thing...it's a HUGE thing to me. If it REALLY bothers me and he won't completely stop, then I think that is a sign he is not serious about protecting me.

In looking back over your words....I think YOU ARE RIGHT. I am focusing on my SO stopping the personal CONTACT, which is important, but the point is still that he deleted text messages for 8 months so that I would not see them. Regardless of their contact...that was deceptive and shows he was not really in Recovery.......at least not for THAT ADDICTION or need for either sexual behavior or ego stroking.

My SO thinks there is nothing wrong with sexual jokes and/or banter.......but he knows that I do.
Maybe that just means that we are not compatible.......I see it as disrespectful to me and to his employer as well as a liablity....certainly in the work environment.

The thing is HE KNEW that I would be disappointed.......so perhaps his heart is just too black to change. It must have been pretty important to him to continue texting behind my back......even once or twice a month.

We are beginning to work on the Love Buster Dishonesty....which is to be followed by Independent Behavior. Perhaps this will all come out then. Granted, we may never get there because my first order of business is the personal contact request.......

His counselor offered to do an Intensive with us over a weekend.....do you think something like that makes sense? My SO did not want to do it.....his counselor isn't pushing it but I am sure he would not have offered unless he thought it would be of help.

Maybe I should just walk and stop trying. I am just not sure which way to move at this point........
I guess the more I think about it...the more depressed I am becoming.

Again...I really appreciate your insight........it's tough seeing anything but a few trees when you are standing right in the middle of the forest.

RE: The intensive therapy...I don't know. What do you think you could get out of it? What would you want to get out of it? Do you even want to spend a weekend dealing with it?

From my perspective, we've been able to improve our relationship just by working on our own behaviors (his recovery and my codependency.) We're able to slug through it well enough on our own.

Well your husband sounds like he is able and willing to really look within himself without defensiveness and take your feelings into consideration. I am not sure my SO can or would do that.....I mean.....if he is considering this texting incident as "just a stupid mistake" even though it went on FOR MONTHS.....I am not really sure he can resolve these issues without a counselors help. Then again, maybe my Angry Outbursts and Depression over this entire incident, make him so defensive, he can't or won't..

I am just not sure he is going to see his behavior as an addiction issue without someone else(other than me) discussing it with him. So...how do we ever get past this if he refuses to see it for what it is and consequently make the proper boundary lines that prevent it from happening again??

To be quite honest, this has happened before....in the first year of our relationship he was emailing and phoning a woman he met on the internet. I found out about it and he claimed they were just friends even though she sent him a naked picture. He finally admitted he was keeping her on the side 'just in case' we didn't work out.

As everyone has said, I see this as an Emotional Affair in that the context of many of those text messages was sexual and he hid the entire situation from me. So....this, in my mind, is the second time he has done this to me..

You must be very good at talking to your husband.......because it seems that you guys can work through this stuff without outside help. That would have never worked in my situation.....
Without outside counseling my SO would have never changed. He needed a man to play hardball with him.

Maybe my SO is just too far gone to ever change....or maybe he just doesn't really want to change...he just doesn't want to GET CAUGHT. At times he seems so Genuine and he has made some real progress in other areas and he is doing well and is happy. But then again, this fidelity issue just keeps coming up....and him hiding his behavior doesn't make me feel that he is really interested in meeting my needs or keeping me safe.

Again...he signed the Policy of Joint AGreement and the Radical Honesty Agreement last week and SAID that he was willing to live by those. I have not done anything more after that......maybe I will just continue to see where that leads us...i.e. whether or not he is really concerned about my feelings to the point of making bounary lines in his life that give me some comfort.

I assume that when you are uncomfortable with something in your husband's behavior, you let him know and you guys negotiate a solution that works for both of you?
What would you do if you found out your husband had been texting some woman at work and deleting the messages so that you did not see them? What action would you take?

Sorry for all of the questions.....but you seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge and I am really floundering at the moment.

Thanks

My husband can still be defensive. He isn't quite recovered fully. I can tell, because he reverted back to addict-speak when he got really stressed out recently. It triggered me in a huge way, and it took me two weeks to figure out he didn't slip, he just doesn't know how to handle stress in a healthy way yet. My angry outbursts aren't really outburts, more like typhoons coming through.

We've made it a priority to talk to each other. I'll admit, I've got miles to go. It has dawned on me that my husband does has feelings and he's entitled to them only when he entered recovery. So I'm not always good at asking what's in his heart. We are starting to understand what it means to be in an healthy intimate relationship (non-sexual intimacy.) He had no idea what that meant because of his addiction. I had no idea what real intimacy means because of my upbringing. We want to model a healthy marriage for our kids, to break the cycle.

We not good at communicating with each other all the time.. But going from literally no communication to at times, very bad communication, was HUGE for us. It helps, me at least, to remember that we are trying to change positively and we do want to make this work.

I don't negotiate with my husband when it comes to his addiction. If I'm uncomfortable with what's on the tv, I tell him and he changes the channel or looks in my eyes. If I feel uncomfortable with where he's looking, even though I know he isn't oogling, I tell him then and there. He's also helped me get through a small panic attack when we were on a date and the waitress was cute. SF is now completely on my terms, with regards to what acts we will/won't do. He knows that may never change, and it's a consequence of his addiction.

When I am triggered or uncomfortable, I am to the point now where I can ask myself, is this my issue or his. Usually, it is mine, and the trigger passes.

He married me without disclosing his addiction. He broke my trust as if he were having an affair. For me, there's no negotiating with him to earn my trust back. He either does or doesn't.

If my husband would have made contact with other women as part of this addiction, I would have left him. If he ever does anything again to betray my trust (not even in a sexual way-like lets say runs up cc debt without telling me) we're done.. If he relapses into daily use again, I'm done. I don't have it in me to go through this again.

I don't think I have a lot of experience. I'm just one of the luckier partners out there.

Thank you for your openness and honesty.
I truly appreciate your thoughts.
I am sitting down with my SO on Sunday morning to discuss...specifically to negotiate a behavior moving forward that I can live with. If we can get an agreement on that(i.e. the no contact by personal phone) then I will know that he is truly interested in caring for ME and we can move on to discuss the various Love Busters.

If we make no headway on the behavior..... because he minimizes my concerns and/or assessment of the situation, then we are simply done.

Thanks again.