Not,

Sorry I was gone so long from your thread. I've been working with a couple of other folks and forgot to come back here!

Regarding the letter to your daughter - if you have written it, then to get it to her you can have someone else email it for you. That would be one way to get it to her.

Regarding how the rest of the family feels about her, I would talk to them, and tell them that you recognize she is doing a sort of Plan B with you, and that you could not be more proud of her. That what she is doing is trying to protect her mom and her love for everyone - and her way of doing that right now is to not contact you, and for now that is her right and that you honor it. You should probably state that in your apology letter, too - that you recognize her right to not talk to you until she is ready, and that you honor it.

And you should tell the family members who are upset with her that YOU are the one they should be upset with, and that if anyone has anything to say about her reaction to your affair

then they can come and discuss it with you

And that they should give her every ounce of love and respect they have to offer in her time of need. And that you will dial the phone for them if they need your help in calling her to apologize to her and offer their help.

Stand tall for your daughter, and defend her position, because she is doing what she needs to do, and you saw that and you know she did the right thing for herself and her mom.

You will also go a very long way in regaining some respect for yourself in the process.




With regard to the issue of withdrawing from your OW. I do have something to say to you about this issue. You are carrying this fantasy about this OW in your head like it is a perfect and real thing. It never was. Never.

The truth of the matter is that you had a fantasy built up and that is what you were in love with - the fantasy. There was no reality behind the cardboard. Had anything progressed, you would have discovered that.



How do you get past it? I have a pretty good idea. MB works.

I will go and find a little post about recovered marriage that might help. BRB

SB

Here is an older post of mine. I resurrect it for you, so that you can kind of understand how you got to where you are now, how all of us sort of got to where we are now, in a general sense, if you've been married awhile. This is what MB did for my marriage, because we CHOSE to work at investing in the marriage. Instead of whining about what we wanted, we decided to put the taker into the box and seal it up for awhile.

Funny, that taker is completely satisfied now, because the giver has been unleashed to its fullest extent.


Here's the post:


I live in a recovered marriage. It is sort of like being a recovering alcoholic I suppose - it is more of a process as opposed to a finished product.

Our marriage, like all others, is continuously evolving. It was evolving before the affair, and continued to evolve after the affair, and will evolve until one of us dies.

Yours is the same. All marriages are the same in the sense of changing every day, and over time.

It is the very reason that affairs happen, in a sense. Because we live closely together and the changes happen slowly over time, we become enured to some things, unaware of others, used to this or that, ignore little things, enjoy lots of things, and neglect many. Time does that to relationships. We get so that our relationship becomes a pattern of sorts, but over the long term, the patterns ebb and flow, and ultimately even the patterns change. We start seeing things as "the same" or "boring", or "settled". Even though the long term reality is that the patterns are changing - evolving - very, very slowly.

So we can fall into the trap of not meeting the needs of the spouse, actually fall into being "too comfortable" with the other. We take it for granted that the other person is happy or comfortable. Or we get too distant, because our habits and patterns just take us so far out of the life of the other that we become very separate from one another.

That's when affairs become possible, because another person can step in and become able to meet our needs - become part of the life of one or the other, because we are too separated and too needy. The OP fills the gap, or the boredom, or the need for change from the day-to-day sameness.

So what does a "recovered" marriage look like?

We alter that tendency to "sameness". We learn to recognize when we are working into complacency, and we actively do things in our lives and relationship to combat that tendency.

For example, we make sure that we have recreational companionship activities within our lives at intervals sufficient to break up the doldrums. We go fishing, ride motorcycles, go out for dinner, go for a walk with the wolf we own, swim together, build things with wood, or play practical jokes on the neighbors. My FWH actually took dancing lessons - that HE scheduled - and he has always sworn he never wanted to learn to dance. Turns out he enjoyed it.

We make sure to meet the needs for sexual fulfillment, and are sure that both of us are satisified in ways that are mutually enjoyable. We also make sure that variety and excitement is added in to ensure that patterns are avoided.

Needs for conversation are met - and we look to movies and books to share together so that we have things to discuss in depth. We might attend a cooking class together (RC) and then subscribe to a magazine for gourmets and talk about the articles in it, for example.

Take a look at the EN's list, and figure out what you can do for YOUR WIFE that might build her up. I'm sure you can figure it out. It will involve you doing some things you don't like - but you will find that you might actually enjoy doing them because you are doing them with someone you love.


We do things every single day to be sure that we are AWARE of the marriage.

This means you THINK ABOUT BEING MARRIED, and what it means to you. And you do it every day.

In fact, if you had done this before your affair, the affair never would have happened - because your time and emotional investment would have been in your marriage. You build equity in what you invest in. You will be surprised at how your emotions turn around when you start putting your sweat into your marriage, and your effort into your wife's spirit.

We are going out tonight for dinner, probably. I can usually count on a Friday night date with my FWH.

I get to dress up for him, and he always tells me I look beautiful. I believe him when he says that now. Because he means it.

He has invested. He puts credit into my bank every day.

We think about our marriage every single day, and are sure to think about it tomorrow.
That is what it means to be in a recovered marriage.



*********************

Not2L8,

You can have this marriage. Stop looking for that fantasy, because you actually have that life right in your own home. You only have to GIVE to get it.

SB

Not2L8,

I need you to send an e-mail to JustUss and give permission to exchange our e-mails.

JustUss2@aol.com

tst I notified JustUss..

I am in a better frame of mind today, I will post an update shortly, after responding to SB.

My mind is in so many different directions. Filled with so much doubt, yet it is still better, I know that may sound crazy but true.

SB thanks for the posts.

I understand you beign away and appreciate any time you give to me and my wife.

I have not yet written the letter, just has seems that with the time we are suppose to spend on or recovery, and with it all not going well, when it seems I have the time I am in no where near the right frame of mind to do it. I will make it a goal to do by the end of the month.


that's a step I have not taken well not as strongly as I should. So when the subject comes up, I will continue to remind them her reaction was based on my poor choice. I stuggle communicating the whole thing to them, because they think she needs to forgive like they have blah blah.

Now on to the fantasy thing, I fully expect to get blasted here somewhat but here it goes. I am trying to wrap my brain around the fact it was all a fantasy. I get it to some degree. There are a couple of things from Dr. Harley's articles of which I can only find one.

Here is the first one "B.D. trusted her spouse with her friend of 21 years. That was a big mistake, as she later discovered. There is no emotion more powerful than romantic love, and people have abandoned their careers, their children, their religion, their security and their health because of it. Try talking to a man who is in love with his secretary about the suffering he is causing his wife and children. Try explaining to him how he will lose his job, his money, his self-respect. You find yourself talking to a man with half a brain, a man who seems possessed. What's going on that causes him to lose all of his perspective on life? It's nothing more than a feeling of love. But that feeling is one of the most important feelings we have, and we will do almost anything to get it and keep it"

The other one had to do with the importance of NC because he has seen men leave after 5 years of recovery, when contact has been broken and he believes it when the WH says they love them both. Something along those lines.

Anyways, my struggle in this part has been I Loved the OW. Still feel a strong pull that way. NC has been in place since 05/25 but I still struggle letting go completely. So when does it end. If it was just a fantasy why is it so hard to let go?
The pathetic thing for me is she ended it, and I can't seem to muster any hard feelings toward her for doing so. I still see her as someone who was there when I needed her.

So now I turn to my wife. She is the one who is there and is sticking by my side. So that is the true love I know. So why do I feel like I am now betraying the OW if I allow myself to fall in love with my wife? HE!! the OW does not even want me. What triggers the feeling of betrayal towards her? I don't owe her anything.

Sorry, I told you my mind was all over the place. I am going to start another post and try to organize my thoughts better.

That is so me still whining. TST has pointed out the same thing only he called it the pitty pot. Jennifer said to put the taker away. So I ask are there practical steps to seal up the taker?

Your post is dead on, we both neglected our marriage.

Now as we try recovery, here is an issue I am having besides the thoughts of OW. By the way, do you think I should take AD? That just crossed my mind so thought I would ask. Back to the issue. I have always struggled being open with my wife, as she has an issue reacting in anger or sarcasm etc. Well openess and honesty is on her EN list. Number 2 on her list. So every night we are to set aside time for open and honest time. In fairness, I want to say last night was much better.

I had told her the first time which was Monday night that it all seemed so foriegn to me to be doing this. It puts me way out of my comfort zone with her. I asked her to go first of which she insisted I go first. Anyways she told me I could share anything with her and all she was going to say was thankyou as she tossed her glasses on the table. Well that sent a message already that she was not really going to be thankful. And then of course after sharing I get a sarcastic thank you. Anyways to the struggle is that nothing is going to change mentality. Just give up. That is where I can see the fantasy part of the A, because I go mentally to how good it was and forget about all the heartache that went with it.

So I shared with her last night that when I am open if I get a lecture, because that is usually what happens, that I have no desire to share anything. As I type that I can hear Jennifer telling me it is still on me to share.

Jennifer did call me last night was quite surprised. I told her about this stuff, and told her how it seemed better when we were seperated and just started to date again. Now that we are together all the time it just seems like we are falling into the same rut we had before. Obviously Jennifer assured me being seperate was not the answer that only leads to more IB. I can see that I told her as I started to realise, or think anyways, that I don't need her take care of me. So I know being seperate is not the answer. To easy to run.

Also, why does she feel the need to ask questions about things that she really won't like the answers to? I understand the details of the A thing, as I have seen that here many times, and I have given her everything I can remember. Here is what I don't get though, I asked her to pray for me to give up country music, as that is another place I can run to at this time to live int the fantasy times to escape. Told her exactly that, and that even though we now have some country songs for us, that there is a new song out that definately causes me to think of her. Bottom line, I wanted to try to quit country music. Why was it necessary to ask what the new song was? I told her but what did it do but cause hurt. I know I am probably missing something major there that I just don't get at this point. But I know you can help set me straight.

To end on a positive note, she was so much better last night. That is what I am trying to remember. I so need her to listen to me. So I can work through it all. I just wonder alot of times if she can actually do that.

SB thanks again for your time, and TST I am looking forward to your input obviously on all of this as well.

IMNSHO, I hate AD's! They deaden the senses and sloooowww recovery down. The best way through problems is to go through them, feel the feelings associated and allow the feelings to pass in a timely fashion. Yes, often that means PAIN! But one must go through the pain regardless!
OR
Take AD's and prolong the process that you still MUST go through!

There are rare occasions that AD's may be necessary short term, but they are not a solution. They are a temporary patch!

Just my opinion!

This has been my point of view all along. It seems as though by not taking them that my wife thinks I am avoiding something that would help. My other thought has been, well how do you know when to stop taking them once you start.

Thanks for the input.

A different opinion on ADs...

I think that there are times when it can be beneficial to "take the edge off" of circumstances in your life for a temporary amount of time. There are SO many ADs out there that work on an immediate (daily) basis.

I think that if the depression and pain are a threat to your ability to function in life altogether, they can be of help. I disagree that they slow things down, but I do not have personal experience with ADs for depression. I also think that they need to be used in conjunction with therapy and cannot be relied on completely as they do only "mask" the underlying causes by lessening the burden temporarily. I take ADs (and have for almost 20 years) but I take them for OCD...something completely different than the temporary fix ADs can give a trauma victim.

Another option, although it may not be the right one and DEFINITELY should be discussed with a dr is anti-anxiety meds. These medications DO take the edge off of a situation. They are VERY temporary and are meant only for the moment. Because I cannot use ADs for my challenges, I have used (sparingly) anti-anxiety meds when my mind is out of control and I need to chill it out.

Just my opinion. I'm not a doctor and some would classify me as mentally unstable :crosseyedcrazy: , so take it with a grain or two of salt.

Mogi

I was prescribed the anti-axiety xanax, and I dont take it everyday (not Dr advice, I just dont feel I need it everyday) In 3 months I have not completed one script

Because a side effect is sleepyness, I take it when i go to bed. I dont take it on the nights I think SF may happen, and strangly, the next day is usually so nice I wouldnt have needed it anyway

Generally I am only taking them on the nights where it has been a bad day, fill of lots of triggers, or my mind wont get off the roller coaster... and I notice the days that happens tend to be the days I am very tired.

A precaution, xanax is addictive which is one of the reasons I have no qualms with only taking it once or twice a week.

You really need to see a Dr about it.

Lil

I do almost the exact thing...anti-anxiety at bedtime when I cannot let go of the day in my mind. It allows me to get to sleep so that I am not tired the next day and don't start the cycle again (I trigger more when I'm tired too).

Mogi

Pure speculation, but I think by taking them intermittantly rather than regulary, they wont build up in my system and make me zombie out like I did when I was taking the AD's.
I seem to be able to shake of the after effects by the end of the next day.

Anyway guess this is a bit of a T/J, but hope it gives Not2L8 some food for thought.

Not2L8,

what time tomorrow do you leave to take your daughter to college?

lil - mogi didn't mind the t/j at all. I was looking for perspectives on it.

TST - planning on leaving by 8:00 a.m. pacific time. It is about a 11 hr drive.

What time are you on? I just got the info for your e-mail does that mean you got mine? If so feel free to e-mail me. I will get it when I get home.

Sorry, I left work very early. Did not see the e-mail come through yet. Tomorrow is friday, so I will be at work early tomorrow. If you can, shoot me an e-mail from home and I will respond before you leave for your trip.

Not,

Lots to answer.

First, the easy one. I hate AD's for the purposes of dealing with the results of real-life crises. Why? Because the angst and the sadness you are feeling are NORMAL RESPONSES TO DAILY LIFE. In my opinion, AD's should be reserved for the purposes of medicating clinical depression - which is an ABNORMAL condition, an abnormal response to normal conditions of life, sadness for NO REASON.

There are reasons in your life to be sad!

What you are feeling are normal emotional responses. You should feel upset - things in your life are a mess because you messed them up. Medication will not solve the problems you created, and I think it is ridiculous that doctors think that we should not feel the emotional results of normal everyday life.

Rant over.

************


I talk about your feelings regarding the OW being a fantasy for a reason. Consider something called the "mere exposure effect". This is the idea that people who work around each other, or people who spend a great deal of time together, and find one another mutually friendly and reasonably attractive to begin with are much more likely to become more and more sexually attracted to one another with an increase in time spent together. For example, you work with a woman who is friendly and nice-looking. Not necessarily someone you would ordinarily seek out as a date or sexual partner. But because you spend lots of time together on a project, you get closer and closer to each other. She starts looking pretty good to you, and vice-versa. The attraction grows because of the mere exposure to one another.

This mere exposure effect goes a long way toward explaining many office romances and many affairs in the workplace, especially those where the two people are completely mismatched otherwise.

The fantasy - yes. Your OW? Let's talk about her. Next post.

Not,

Okay, let's talk about the idea of fantasy and the OW.

Let's say you really did love the OW.

Fine.

So, that means you automatically "unlove" your wife?

I don't buy that.

Here's what I think happened.


You betrayed YOURSELF first.

I cannot state exactly WHEN or WHERE you betrayed yourself. But you did. It happens in EVERY DECISION TO HAVE AN AFFAIR. From that point of self-betrayal, from that exact point on, you began to betray your wife.

At some point, you had the thought of working your way closer to the OW. It crossed your mind, and you pushed that thought back as WRONG. You began to do things to keep yourself from thinking about her, and you knew that you were venturing into dangerous territory.

Right?

Had you stopped yourself at this point, and focused on the marriage, you would not have betrayed yourself.

But you made a choice to go ahead and move closer to the OW instead, to explore her as a possible love candidate, despite the fact that you had a wife.

AT THIS POINT, YOU BETRAYED THE DEEP, INNER VOICE INSIDE OF YOU THAT TOLD YOU THAT THIS BEHAVIOR WAS WRONG.

You self-betrayed.

Once you self-betrayed, you started thinking differently. You looked at your wife differently, and the OW differently. The OW became "better". She HAD to. Because the act of self-betrayal had to be

JUSTIFIED.

You had to justify your actions, do you see that?


You had to have some way in your mind, in your conscious, to justify what you were about to do.

You were about to cheat on your wife, to betray her. And you knew that.

The ONLY justification for that would be:

IF YOUR WIFE DESERVED IT, and you could BLAME HER FOR IT.


So mentally, the changes that occur are this: your wife's small faults become larger; your wife's sarcastic tones begin bothering you greatly; you begin to rewrite your marital history so that it works in favor of justifying what you are about to do; and any other perceived problems in the marriage become vastly magnified.



I will say that again, because you have to really live with this.

THE ONLY WAY FOR YOU TO LIVE WITH YOUR ACT OF SELF-BETRAYAL WAS IF YOU COULD BLAME YOUR WIFE FOR IT.

Now, tell me that you had NO conversations wtih your OW regarding how your wife was difficult to talk to, didn't meet your needs, etc.

You did.

Because it justified what you were doing. Blamed HER.


I'm not hitting you with a 2X4. I'm telling you how it works, really happens.

That self-betrayal initiated the blame-game. It allowed you to foist the blame elsewhere and at the same time pushed into place a second event............

The coronation of the OW.

Because this HAD to happen. The OW was the key partner in the game. She HAD to be better than your wife - do you see that?

Because if you were to commit this act of self-betrayal, and go against everything you knew to be right and good

then it had better be for something right and good.

You did it for the OW.

So you absolutely, positively, COULD NEVER ADMIT THAT THE OW WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN RIGHT OR GOOD.


Could you?


Next post, let's talk about that.........is the OW "right and good"?????

Is the OW "right and good"? Is she that perfect fantasy that you nuked your marriage for?

Nope.

Here's why.


That OW is someone who came into your life and made sure that she attracted you. You saw her as a love candidate, and you were married. She KNEW you were married.

I wonder - would you want a wife who has no regard for marital vows? Your OW has none. She lacked regard for YOURS. She did not care that you were married.

If you ended up with her, married her, she would bring that attitude into that marriage. Something to consider. Not "good".

Your OW, did she consider your children, and the impact her presence in your marriage might have on them? IMHO, any person who intrudes on a marriage that has children involved, has no moral standing. She was willing to put herself and her own selfish desires above YOUR CHILDREN and their needs, Not. ABOVE THEM. You should never choose anyone who would put themselves above your children - that alone tells you a great deal about her character. Neither "right" nor "good".

How often did your OW say negative things about your BW? About how much better a woman she is than your BW? She said those things in order to drive your wife out of your life, to help you push your wife away - make you hate your wife in your mind - drive a wedge into your marriage, in her selfish desire to "have" you, not to "love" you. There is a difference, you know. Not "right", and no, not "good".



And that fantasy...............

OW was always able to get herself ready for you, had time to shower and dress up. Your wife? She woke up in the real world with you, sometimes in work clothes, sometimes from painting the garage, sometimes from digging in the garden...

OW was always able to put on the candles before you got there, and clean the house. Your wife? She was doing great to have your dinner ready between getting the kids to dance class and catching the dog that got out the gate yet again, and oh, since you forgot to pick up milk on your way home she ran and got it, and "somebody" broke the toilet paper holder again so she fixed that...

OW gave you hand-made love cards every time you met for secret sex rendevous. Your wife?

She made love to you that first time you two were together - remember where and when that was? How you felt then? Make your mind go there - it's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She bought that sexy outfit once that didn't stay on long and ohhhh she looked great - remember that? And you two made love...that's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She wrote you love notes once and twice and three times, and more, and you read them and remember them, and probably have them stashed somewhere. She has given you gifts over the years for birthdays and Christmases and "just because", and you kept some and laughed at some and don't even know what happened to others. She lost your socks and stayed up with you when you were sick.

She raised your children.

She probably wrecked one of your cars.

Or you wrecked hers!

She shared more than one laugh with you, and a thousand tears.

And she has stood next to you in the best of times, and is standing right there now, in the very worst of them.

Your OW........gone. Because she was a fantasy, and for all the reasons you can see and more............

Your wife is reality.

Your wife is love.


You make a choice every day about love. You accept it or reject it. You give it or take it.

If there is one thing I have figured out about love, is that it is found where you GIVE it.

Odd little fact.

SB

SB-
wow- once again you hit the nail in the head!! this is exactly what my FWH did. he told all of his women that his "mean and controlling wife" ( i am just adding those adjectives myself because i'm sure his tone said it), didnt LOVE him!!

I also think that this is a way for the WS to get the OP to feel bad for them. It is pure manipulation.

And it is not TRUE.

If the BS really didnt LOVE the WS, WHY would the WS be out having affairs while the BS is home waiting for him/her?

It is exactly as you state - Self betrayal- the need to justify it in their own minds. They can only accept their own behavior if is it NOT THEIR FAULT- IT IS ALL THE BS'S FAULT.

How can something be our fault when we are IN the marriage trying to make it work- and they are running away OUTSIDE the marriage?

i think we make a consious decision to LOVE or not LOVE someone. If we never open ourselves up to another person, and there is no discussion of personal feelings or activities- at work or with couple friends- then there is no chance for LOVE to appear. We do not open the door for Love Deposits.

But if we do not maintain those boundaries- there is always a chance that we will LET ourselves love someone else.

the WS needs to make a conscious decision to LOVE their spouse- if they want to stay in the marriage.

i could never get through my FWH's impenatrable wall of hatred of me. No matter how kind, how accepting, how thoughtful i was, he had a suit of armour of dislike for me. whatever i did- he misconstrued as evil.

and he did this... so he wouldn't hate himself.

if i was kind and loving, how would he make sense of his life?

so he blamed me for EVERYTHING- MOSTLY FOR HIS OWN UNHAPPINESS.

i began to doubt my sanity.

So WH- Just DECIDE to love your wife.

take off your suit of armour against her.

if you are here on this thread, ( and i haven't read all of it) and you have put the effort forth to post- you must really LOVE her deep down.

Sunflower

PS- SB - please go to my thread for an answer- i am leaving on vacation tomorrow. thanks.

Schoolbus,

Your post on self-betrayal is one of the most insightful and powerful posts I have read here. Maybe it was just what I needed to hear today...incredible.

Thank-you,
Jean