I agree with Pep.

Hug, pinch the butt, and bite the ear. Tell him thanks for doing the tough part of the recovery - protecting the family from the hits of triggers, the OW intrusions, the OW's eyes on your child and YOU.


Admiration for him stepping up to the plate on this tough job. I like that he practiced first! That should tell you that he listened to you, took it seriously, and that protecting your DD means something to him, protecting you means something to him.

He did this to do SOMETHING to fix it. You do see that, don't you?


Be specific - he saw this as something he coud DO. He WANTS to help, and isn't sure what that looks like to you.

Tell him.

Specifically.

"You know, it really felt good the other day when you did ______"


And I guarantee he will do it again, or something like it.

Because he needs to take action. It's a guy thing.

SB

SB and Pep

I know i should be able to touch him and encourage him..but that is why i started my thread- how do i let him into my heart again?? i am having a REALLY hard time with this.

i will admit- for the first time in over 30 years- i did feel slightly protected by him.

i did not give him any positives for doing it. i need to do that. i really have to force myself to do it.

WHY????

i felt that it was an entire year of me being upset by going to her house, seeing the OW X4 around town- and he never once worried about my feelings.

now - he did ONE positive thing and i should jump up and down??

OK- i hear myself- if i dont encourage the positive- how will i get more of it??

IDK!!!!

i dont feel safe that he will be "my safe place to fall" and that he will look out and protect my feelings and our children's. he has always been so interested in having OTHER people like him- that he didnt care about us and me.

He broke his vow today to not go in a car alone with a woman, when the woman down the block offered him a ride home from the train, and he didnt want to insult her.

so it was - protect MY feelings or insult HER feelings and HER feelings won.

so i feel disregarded again. and that his promises to me dont matter.

so i am afraid to trust that he will protect me.

i am afraid to let myself love him again because i never want to be hurt like i was before.

it was the deepest pain i ever felt.

the human body protects itself.

isnt this a natural reaction????????

sf

Pep-

YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT THIS-

(How do i bring over a quote? when i try i get the whole message.)

We were upside down and now we are right side up.

i didnt even know how upside down my life was.

unfortunately - i am a long way from feeling protected by my H.

while packing for our trip we are leaving on tomorrow- he was moping around, while everyone in my family is very excited.

so i couldnt stand it anymore- him feeling sorry for himself and being a downer for us.

we had an arguement- because i was/am so sick of him feeling sorry for himself.

i really dont know why i am staying in the marriage.

i think i would be much happier without him.

when i yelled at him -he lost his temper and yelled back.

now i wish i had kicked him out.

idk- one minute i want to work like hell on this and the next - i feel like i am drowning,

SF

You have developed some pretty bad habits in your marriage.

In the spirit of "THE FIRST STEP IS TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH" I can say to you the only person who's emotional content you can control is the lady in the mirror.





Is he not entitled to his feelings as you are entitled to yours?
What can you do when someone you love is feeling sad or down?
Why argue with him that he has no right to feel sad or down?

His feelings do not need to make intellectual sense to you !!!

I do understand your dilemma.
When we first went into recovery my H was a dry drunk. And dry drunks win Olympic Gold Metals in the following events:

feeling sorry for myself
moping
deep sighing
poor me-ism
rescue me-ism
victim victim victim

I imagine that you have been the family manager of allowable emotions.... for years.

Time to pass the baton.

Give him SPACE to feel sad or mope or whatever.
If you don't like being around him - try giving him a reasonable alternative:

"I can tell you are going through something. Is there anything you want to talk about? No? OK. I'm going to go out to the library I'll be back in an hour." *kiss cheek*

When H is in a mood - talk to him to let him know you notice - ask if he wants to talk - and then excuse yourself if he wants to be alone in his misery.

H is allowed his own emotions and you have no executive directorial ownership to his mood.

If in a confined space with little chance for escape (like a car trip) listen to music - sing - sleep - do a puzzle - write in your diary - occupy your mind elsewhere.

The important thing is: DO NOT BORROW your husband's mood.

The other important thing is: do not teach your husband to close you off because you are critical of his emotions.

He has emotions. Do you want him to HIDE them from you?

Pep

yes - if you want to stay married - yes

are you his safe place to fall where his feelings can be expressed?

he has feelings - and some of his feelings about you are negative
and some are positive
and some are guilt ridden


do you want to know what your husband's feeling are?

or is he only allowed to express positive feelings that won't hurt you?

Pep

This was a teachable moment for your husband - how did you handle this?

Pep

Hi Pep-

Thanks for all of your wonderful insights. You are soo right about everything and i have much to say about it all.

i am working very hard to learn your first comment- that the only person i can change is MYSELF AND MY EMOTIONS!

here is how i feel when he acts upset or pities HIMSELF or feels bad for himself or for how much he hurt me-

WHY DOES HE HAVE A RIGHT TO FEEL BAD WHEN HE IS THE ONE WHO BETRAYED ME???

i hit the submit button by accident=

why does he get to feel bad and be upset when I am the ONE who should be moping as I AM THE INJURED PARTY???

SHOULDNT HE CARE ABOUT REPAIRING THE MARRIAGE WITH ME INSTEAD OF INDULGING HIS OWN EMOTIONS AND FEELING SORRY FOR HIMSELF??

when he acts like this i feel disgusted by him- i feel that he is childlike and not adultlike. why doesnt he just DO things to fix this mess- instead of wallowing??

i know- our therapist called him a dry drunk too.

and i know that i have a past problem with moodiness, depression and self-pity.

My mother was clinically depressed and as a child- i felt that it was MY fault. i constantly tried to get her out of her moods and cheer her up- but it never worked.

then i just felt worthless and not good enough and why didnt she love me??

so i know that when he starts his mood- i feel as if i am drowning- that his mood will SPREAD to me- and suck me down with him.

so i try to get him out of it- and if he wont get out of it- i just get mad and disgusted.

i have learned to DO things when i am upset- but he just wallows.

he does all of it - sighing, moaning, fast breathing, head shaking, why why why???

here's the problem - if i ask him if there is anything he wants to talk about - he will say YES- and then go on and on about how disgusted he is with himself or something like that.

how do i listen without reacting??? i am BURNT up by you!!!

feel bad for me- not for yourself!!!

BUT - i dont want him to hide them from me either......

so i have a new perspective....

i must learn to let him express it and not let myself get sucked in.

i have tried the radio thing in the car- that works sometime.

i have tried going out for a ride in the car when he is moping at home- and that helps- but then i just feel more distant.

does any of this make sense to you???

SF

ok- i need to jump up and down. why do i have such a hard time giving him any positives???

is it that i am letting him in to my heart again?? i am really struggling here, SF

Pep

this situation with the car- i was so hurt that he broke a promist to me again- i cried and ignored him for days.

that night - he called her and told her that he doesnt ride alone in the car with women other than his wife.

she thought it was a little strange - but accepted it.

he only did this after seeing my upset.

i want HIM to think of setting these boundaried - not me telling him to.

when he doesnt - i feel that the change is not happening fast enough.

SF

Feelings are feelings -
Often there is no logic there.

It is the same with you. Your posts cry out with the pain, and you talk of how unfair this is, and how it hurts.

Your feelings are valid. You have a right to be hurt.

The thing is, what will you DO with your feelings?

The really important question here is not what is fair, but what will the outcome be?

It looks as though he does not have what is needed (right now) to make the marriage work.

So, you can do what is needed, or not. It's your choice. You don't have to put up with him, or with his feelings if you don't want to.

I am not trying to be funny, or cute.
Not trying to discount your feelings or say they are not important, because they are, and we hurt for you.

The bottom line is still the bottom line.

What do you want?
Are you willing to do what it takes to get there?

- Time out - please think on this for a minute or two before going on.


The difficulties we go through can be(and often are) defining moments in our lives. Perhaps these lines from a song by Brad Paisley will help here. Especially the last verse.


When you find yourself
In some far off place,
And it causes you
To rethink some things.
You start to sense
That slowly you’re becoming someone else
And then you find yourself.

When you make new friends
In a brand new town,
And you start to think
About settling down,
The things that would have been lost on you
Are now clear as a bell.
And you find yourself
That’s when you find yourself.

Well you go through life
So sure of where you’re heading,
And you wind up lost
And it’s the best thing that could happen.
‘Cause sometimes when you lose your way
It’s really just as well.
‘Cause you find yourself;
That when you find yourself.

When you meet the one
You’ve been waiting for,
And she’s everything
That you want and more,
You look at her
And you finally start
To live for someone else.
And then you find yourself;
That’s when you find yourself.

We go though life
So sure of where we’re heading,
And then we wind up lost
And it’s the best thing that could happen.
Sometimes when you lose your way
It’s really just as well.
Because you find yourself;
Yeah that’s when you find yourself.


Think on it, and come back and tell us what you think.

SS

Dear SS-

wow- you have given me alot to think about.....

when you said that it looks as though my H doesnt have what it takes to make a marriage work- that hit me- that is the truth which i must learn to accept.

i DONT have to stay with him- even though my heart wants to- but i have to accept WHO he is.

you are sooooo right- i have to decide what I want and if i want to stay and work on the marriage.

the problem i still have is that i dont have a clear YES or NO in my head yet.

when things are going well between us- we are connecting and doing the MB exercises- i feel that i want to stay and do anything to work on the marriage.

But - when things are not going well- he reverts to his old behaviors- not following through on a promise- falling asleep on the coach when we didnt have our couple time- etc. - then i feel...that i DONT want to stay. those are the times i feel trapped.

i know that i still have feelings of love for him but they are covered with many layers of hurt and self-protection.

i decided today that i am ordering the MB home study course- i think that will give us the structure we need to repair our marriage.

actually not repair - i would rather say -RECREATE- because our old marriage is dead.

if i can just give it one more year of an open mind with this course- and then i know i have done everything. if i still feel unsure after that - i would have to face the truth that we cant create a loving marriage- and then i will have to leave.

do you think that's a good plan? have you done this course?

also - i SO agree that the difficult times are the times that open us up for growth. i would never have known how lousy our marriage was or how my self esteem was so low- if i had not had to face his infidelity.

i LOVED the words to this song- i have to find the CD. THANKS-

SF

the problem is - you are wanting to say "yes" to a marriage that does not exist
and
you are reluctant to say "no" to the marriage that does exist




I think this is a mistake (but who cares what I think? )

this is a decision I think you should POJA with your husband

and when you POJA with him - watch him carefully for outward signs of enthusiasm - this purchase, if made without his enthusiastic agreement is a view into what his effort level will be

you'll be writing on MB

"H is not doing his MB homework"

if we gave marriages grades , you know, like in school

you are working hard towards earning an "A" grade
and
your H is content with a "C-" .... good enough to pass


does it feel like most of the time you are trying to "create" something and you are dragging him behind you - a reluctant spouse?

why did your H put a woman in the car alone with him when he agreed not to?

.... because you are doing the work in the marriage
.... because the person who wants the relationship the most does the work
.... because he knows he can and you will be angry/hurt , but remain with him, and that is enough
.... because you will not leave him over broken promises

he's not stupid - he's aware you will pick up his slack in the marriage

try to step back - WAY BACK - and look at the bigger picture rather than focus on each offense as it comes along

try to imagine answering this question:

if you stopped putting all this effort into fixing repairing creating a new marriage - what would your H be doing to make the marriage work for both of you?



IF your husband gets ALL EXCITED and can't wait to begin the MB home study course -- whoopee!


what are your plans if H is putting in a "C effort" while you are busting your buns to get an "A in MB" ?

what are you plans if H cannot say "no" to the next woman who needs a ride home?

I am certain .......

Pep- good to hear from you again, but i am a little confused...

You were constantly advising me to give my H more encouragement and respond more positively when he acts loving ... to even "jump up and down" when he does a great thing- like telling my DD not to play at the Ow's house anymore... but now you are telling me to throw in the towel??

i know that taking a ride from another woman was breaking a promise- but he immediately admitted it, told me how wrong he was, how much he regretted it, how weak he was and too embaressed to say no, and then he called our neighbor and told her that he does not ride alone in the car with women. i thought that he had messed up, but i saw growth here. i did pull away emotionally for about a week.

just this week, i almost fell over! HE called our therapist to start up therapy again. (we had stopped over the summer.)he takes the MB books with him to work and reads them- and we sometimes argue because he takes them before i am finished.

i agree that he has a LONG way to go, and i am still not sure that he can/will do it.. but i feel in a whole lot better place today.

i WILL ask him what he thinks about the MB home study course and see what his reaction is.. (for the past 2 weeks, he has been bringing out the SAA book every night to read together.)

i DO agree that i have been the A student and he has been the F student throughout our whole marriage. now during this recovery - he has been the same F student for the first 8 months- wallowing and self-pity- but the last 5 months have shown me major growth.

i am willing to stay open minded to see where this change will take us. i am definitely NOT willing to stay with him if he is not putting in A work with me. i will walk away and i know it.

i no longer fear being divorced or on my own as i once did. i no longer look to him for approval. i enjoy the time i spend alone, or with my DD and DSs or with my friends. i know i can have a great life ... either with him or without him.

SF

my apologies - I am being confusing, I agree
I am in mourning and my communication skills are apparently away on vacation .... hopefully this will be less confusing (no guarantees tho LOL)


it's a behavioral approach I was trying to communicate to you
reward the desired behavior & there will be more of the same desired behavior
like dog training - but I know he's not a dog
like child-rearing - but I know he's not a child
we are human beings - and as humans we like to be reminded when we do something right - you and I and our spouses and our children (and dogs too)

if you do not reward the desired behavior, it will eventually extinguish
I hope this is clear now

if you don't choose to reward the desired behavior, you will see less and less of it




I am not
I have no opinion if you should keep the towel or throw it away
BUT, I am of the opinion that if you decide to keep the towel you ought to wash it and make it the towel you want

PS

Schoolbus is giving you a steady handed approach and I support her postings to you

Pep

Thanks, PEP!!!


I think you are helping lots, too. The vets are always needed, and I'm certainly not in your league!


S-55,

I see you are getting there - and I love the fact that your FWH is working on the reading. That is so important. I agree totally with Pep, that if you reward what you want to see, you will get more of it.

Working with people who have disabilities has taught me something very important that has carried over into relationships.

Here's what I mean:

Sometimes my job requires me to work with some people who have difficulty understanding what you and I never even consider having to think about. For example, let's say that you needed to go order french fries at McDonald's. Simple, right? You just ask for them, the kid at the counter rings them up, and you pay. You wait, the fries come, you go wherever it is you're going to eat, and yum-yum - LUNCH.

Well, there's a whole lot more going on that that, and my job consists of the linguistic, cognitive, social, and communicative analyses of each and every possible step along the way of that task. Furthermore, I would analyze the task into possible communicative interactions between you and the kid behind the counter - for example, what did HE think, what did he use as body language, what did he say/not say, what were you as a listener required to know that was not said but yet needed as implied knowledge??????? And there's lots more. That's what I do.

Then, I look at the client I have. What are his/her skills? What does this particular person bring to the table, and what is lacking?



From that example you can see that a "simple" task such as ordering fries isn't so simple from my perspective, and that communication within a marriage is frightening complex when I walk in the picture.

So, on to what I've learned.

I've learned that the most important thing I can do with a client is tell them what they NEED to do - not what they DON'T need to do.

Why?

Because when it comes to interactions, I have found that the problem seems to be a lack of options in one's repertoire that forms the difficulties in relationships and social situations.

This lack of repertoire means, essentially, that their approach to problems keeps them going into the same style or response every time they meet up with a particular problem or social situation. And that response has not worked in the past - and will not work in the future - but it is the only one in their repertoire, so they use it!

So, my advice and teaching includes instruction in alternative responses. Concrete alternatives - I tell them what they "should" do, instead of what they are doing wrong.

Increase the repertoire of possible "good, better, best" responses that your husband can give you.


This would include helping him with filling your ENs - right along the Harley plan.


Avoids LBs, DJs, and points everyone in the direction of building the marriage. Think in terms of good-better-best, all of which are at LEAST good.

Helps your husband help you. And helps him let you welcome him back.


SB

I'm just impressed you can spell repertoire :

Pep, doggone you!

I had to go and check myself. :crosseyedcrazy:

SB