I'm going to definitely bring that up.

Her first BF was a co-worker
I was one of her co-workers
Her first OM was a co-student (same classes)
Her second OM was a co-worker, who also reported to her

Doesn't take much to see the bigger pattern. She got hit - several times.

I think there might have been two other places that brought her into contact with male co-workers. It could be more a simple lack of opportunity or maybe a simple lack of interest from those males that prevented any more "hits" from taking place. But a co-worker that's also putting on his best behaviour to impress the boss? Or one willing to turn on the admiration for the boss in order to move up the ladder? (the last OM now has her job!). That might be part of the recipe for disaster.

I'm going to ask her what makes her believe that she can now safely have a male worker reporting to her, considering the huge amount of damage that was caused the last time that happened.

MiM


As opposed to what? I am curious. It has been a looooong time my friend. And the core issue still remains in limbo. See, if I were there, I would look her in the eye and in the best hypnotic voice I could muster, would say, "When are you going to take control of you? When are you going to look deep within yourself and flip the switch to devotion to family, self, husband and life lived with honor and integrity."

A fantasy.

Larry

LOL, yes, Larry, there are those "fringe benefits". I just want to see if I can do without the ED pills for those "spur of the moment" times when I can't sit around waiting for an hour for the damned things to kick in.

Are you a "Dune" fan, Larry? Think of the personal force-fields, and the way to get through them. I think a slow and determined approach rather than quick 2x4s are going to get through to her. The latter trigger that "force-field" of hers and she shuts out EVERYTHING. What I'm learning slowly is how NOT to trigger it.

I think that is precisely what Mel is trying to convey. If this is her prevailing attitude, then your WW is only taking HALF MEASURES to protect you and her in the marriage.

Nothing less than full measures of POJA and O&H agreements between the two of you will suffice. Your W needs to come completely on board with this. anything else will result in false recovery.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Course I am. Got it that you believe this is the best approach. Frank Hebert was raised in Louisiana where I lived for a while and absorbed the culture. Personal ethics down there mean "Don't get caught." My personal best story from that neck of the woods was when I noted to a friend of mine that some of the Union guys were shooting across the Mississippi at him when he was at work. He said he knew who it was and since he went hunting with him all the time, knew he couldn't hit an alligator from three feet. "Abear" put a lot of Southern Louisiana trials and tribulations into his stories.

Larry

Larry

Hmm... I'll have to ask my MIL if she ever stayed there for awhile...

MIM,

I am catching up on your (very active) thread and the following caught my attention;

"""if you don't trust me to the point that you think I need to take a lie-detector test, then perhaps we should end it",""

And so this is where you backed off and rationalized the "public disclosure" side of it?

You can always "vacation" to another city and while there take the test. Maybe you have to call her bluff instead of throwing in your hand or the towel or the cards all the time.

Also on the tangled thread she stated "You were her life, but not now." And indicated some other mystery reasons. Could folding the hand all the time be one of them? Does she want you to stand up for yourself?

Lastly, when you both went to the different colleges for "higher learning" and she learned much more...Dude,that broke my heart!!

And way back then you took her back...seems to have set the pattern of your total conflict avoidance.

But, in your mind, what you have now has got to be better than whatever else could be out there for you.

Kind of like the beer is warm and flat, but the glass is still half full rather than half empty.

IMHO

kirk

For the record:


My wife said the same thing early on. I said ok, I will see the lawyers tomorrow. She backed down after a couple of hours to think about it and redoubled her efforts toward recovery. She also revealed a couple of more details she was trying to hide.

And yea, the college deal make me want to barf as well. I had the exact same thing happen to me. And when the young lady in question wanted to restart our relationship again, I dodged the bullet.

MiM has to do the best he can to defend his family as I said, from the internal rot that is attacking it. He is in the best position to judge what and how he wants to do that. I have a hard time calling him a wimp or conflict avoider given his devotion to his family that is so obvious AND his conflicts with Tangled's issues.

Larry

That "rationalization" was based on a lot of other factors surrounding our A, not just on the lie-detector test.



I don't think it was a bluff, and at this point I don't think the test is necessary. Of course my feelings on that can change..



I think she's out of the "infatuation" stage, and doesn't see me as meeting her ENs.



It affected me more than that. I was completely blindsided. There was absolutely nothing from her before that that suggested she would even consider doing something like that. Quite the reverse. We were basically like two peas in a pod for those two years. Or so I thought. When I asked her a few months ago for her thoughts about that time, her response completely flabbergasted me. We talk about WSs re-writing history - well, she wrote a whole NEW history, I think all done to rationalize her choices back then, perhaps to portray them in a way that she could find it easier to accept that that she made them. And I found out fairly recently that she had sex with him the NIGHT BEFORE returning to me, where she greeted me at her door with a big hug and kiss, told me she was looking forward to SF with me ASAP, and then only afterward, when I got curious, telling me about her experience and telling me that it didn't mean that she loved me any less. I remember staring at her open-mouthed and asked myself if I was really hearing what I was hearing. I think almost every minute of that night is still a permanent memory for me.

I almost drank myself to death that night.



Perhaps. I look back at that time and wonder - why didn't I just run for the hills and keep on running just as fast as I could?? I guess the answer lay in those two great years we had together - I didn't want to just throw those away, and she REALLY seemed remorseful at the time - after returning, she wrote me letters almost every day for the next two years of her course, talking about how sorry she was and how much she loved me, and how much she was looking forward to being with me permanently.



Unfortunate, but yup, that's what it is. What I have now is preferable to D, custody battles, emotionally-scarred kids, loneliness and the inevitable feeling of failure, of losing just over 20 years of my life. And yes, I still love her, even though it might end up being the death of me.

MIM,

Appreciate the frank reply.

I think many, many of we BSs are in the same boat, in varying extremes. Some sailing along, some in dead calm and some taking on water.

Like Popeye says, "I YAM WHAT I YAM".

Look inward and take care of you. YOU make yourself happy.

Oh yeah..

""I almost drank myself to death last night.""

I hope you meant to say "that" night!!

Respectfully,

kirk

Whoops! Corrected, thanks.

Which reminds me - haven't had a good glass of port in days...

I didn't have a chance to discuss this with her last night (was too tired to discuss anything by the time we had some time to be alone). But something just struck me this morning...

I think that she does believe she's "protecting her boundaries", but I think it's the *way* that she's doing it that might be the problem.

It seems to a "reactive" sort of protection, rather than an "active" sort - a bit like choosing to not go into the bar ("active") because of the danger of being tempted to drink, rather than going in, telling yourself you won't accept a drink in there if someone actually offers you one ("reactive").

We'll definitely discuss this as soon as we have the time to do so.

MiM


Are you thinking too much?

Boundaries don't require thinking, they just are. You are attempting to read her mind. That is impossible. You can only read what she does and how she acts.

Larry

I think your wife should read "Boundaries in Marriage"...it sure sounds like she doesn't -get it-.

She hasn't been considering the rule of protection. Her actions were definitely entitled as well as being disrespectful of you and your marriage.

She isn't acting recovered but she is acting like she will be open to, and vulnerable to, further infidelity down the road without extraordinary precautions in place. She needs to be proactive - and she isn't. Hiring the young man and forgetting to tell you are all red flags and a window into her wayward nature....however innocent she may have tried to spin all of this.

-From someone who has BTDT with a FWH who didn't get it a first.

JL, as per MB forum protocol, I'm staying out of my FWW's thread on the Recovery forum. However, you mentioned some things in your last post that I thought deserved some comment.



My FWW recognizes that there's a communication issue between us. She's reading a book now "Communication Miracles for Couples" by Jonathan Robinson that she says has been somewhat enlightening, and she's asked me to have a read as well. I'm a bit wary - I believe Harley's words when he said that we should focus on restoring the love first, but I will read it as requested



I've mentioned this on more than one occasion to her. Her writing seems almost lifeless at times. She says that her writing was always like that, but I still have all those letters she sent me back in the earlier days of our relationship that suggest entirely the opposite.

Perhaps this is related but, compared to back then, there's not much passion in our relationship at the moment, if any at all. Any interaction from her towards me that involves more than a hug seems to be an effort for her, and sometimes I sense that she might even be repulsed by me (like when I try to kiss her intimately). And our talk seems to be limited to basically practical matters.

The end result is that I've basically resigned myself for the moment to not seeing much passion in our M, but I do know that it's a situation that cannot continue. It really bothers me that she doesn't seem to have that happiness, that passion that she deserves in a good M.

MIM,


IMO that is a great book. It really helped my DH and I communicate in a more productive manner.

LC

Probably the hardest thing I have ever done was to convince my wife that an infatuation wasn't true love. It took a ton of convincing. See, it is that popular women's lore believes that infatuations ARE the test of real love. Those of us on this support group know better, or should.

I attempted to point this out to Tangled. I think she wouldn't believe that the sun comes up in the East if it came from me.

Larry

MiM - she's done precisely nothing to earn the "F"WW title you know. SHe is very much in a wayward mindset. Stopping her affair (that you know of) doesn't give her the right to append an "F" to her "WW" title.

MiM,

If you hadnt have found out about the new guy, until your wife was involved in yet another A. What would you do differently the next time?

I know my M has its problems with boundaries but...

Good God man!!!

If shes eaten all the carrots, its time to move onto the stick!!!

if my wife didnt consider me immediate family on equal footing with our kids then.... GTFO!!!

I had better be the first person on her life insurance policy!! The lunacy!!!