I don't understand what LA said either and IMHO do not feel it applies in this situation. I'm sure that you feel letdown that the STBXW doesn't show more interest in fixing the marriage and herself and may not be good about acknowledging the changes that you've made. There is also the reminder of the things you miss in that person. Not everything in a marriage is bad and harmful and we do have some good memories.

But, the fact that we reminisce means that we're not quite whole yet and shoes some of our neediness and our issues with letting things go. You have two probable outcomes, reconciliation as the least probable and divorce as the most probable. Prepare fully for the most probable. I'll also throw this thought out to you, would you really want to go back to the same dysfunction that put you where you are now? Have you changed enough? Has she changed enough? What defines enough change for the both of you?

The past is dead. We have to let it go. We need to deal fully with the now and partially with the future. The best investment you can make now is in yourself for it will payoff for the rest of your life. Keep the focus of your energies there.

TTM,

No, I wasn't saying that...I was saying that your pattern in your marriage was to share a lot...that's what I remember and maybe I'm remembering wrong.

What I see is when you act from respect, enforce your boundaries, you feel great...new...and that can drive up your desire to share with STBXW how you feel, what you're experiencing now...

Makes sense because she was your go-to girl for years...the one you went to...and now, while divorcing, changing your stuff...who do you turn to and say, "Hey, this was cool"? So you miss her...the old her...your wife.

It's like connecting through conflict...when you don't react in the old ways, hold to your code...reap the reward of sowing something new...and feel more intimate because you did...ups the intimate connection...yet that very connection is with the person who is wanting the end of your marriage.

Gonna feel a bit inside out at times...I'm wondering if it's the reaction on the backend...the last part...the automatic coming in after the new...and wondered what you thought.

And it sounds like she listened to you for a short while, which was different, too, btw, than more recent history. Again, we connect through respect, which can feel closer...and the missing jumps in because you are not...you just acted from intimacy and experienced it, maybe?

LA

Booka,

At first I was not only disappointed but angry that STBXW didn't take more interest in fixing the M, or working on herself. However, I can understand that I may have come across as very pushy to her in that department. I can appreciate how that would keep her from embracing the things I've been working on.

In truth, in the past I was looking for acknowledgment from her of my changes, needing her validation even, now I'm at a place I don't need anyone's approval or acknowledgment of my changes and growth. I know who and what I am, and how I'm growing.

I don't expect her to want to reconcile, and as I've said before, I'm not interested in 'saving' our M. I won't go 'back' to the dysfunction we had.

Here's the real question: Can the same relationship exist, when one person has changed, grown and got solid with themselves? When one person no longer requires approval from the other to feel whole? When their boundary skills are good enough that when someone attempts to define them, they can respond from their own code, rather than react to the attempted pressures from the other?

I have asked myself these questions over and over again, and I continue to come back with the same answer. Not a chance. Can the same relationship exist? No way. Can't.

So can I be in the same M with her? Nope, I don't believe so. This does beckon the question can I be with her if she doesn't ever work on her stuff? Not sure, but I think if my boundaries were strong enough, I might be able to, yes. Would I want to, well that's a whole different question.

Our old M will be dead when I sign the D papers. What will our future R look like? Don't know, but I have some thoughts of what I'm hoping for. Can't control the outcome, but I'll do what I think is most likely to get me there.

This includes acting from my own self-respect, and honesty, facing my fears of 'rocking the boat' and 'asking for what I want'. In clear direct communication with stbxw. No games, no manipulation, honest. The real me.

The tough part to walk here is not doing any more damage to our relationship as we finish up this process. While maintaining my integrity. It's easy to slip into old routines, so I have to take more time and lots of pauses, as I make decisions and we have communication. I also have to be sure to let go of the outcomes, keep reminding myself of that.

I'm glad the past is dead. My missing some things is, I believe, a normal and healthy thing. Not wanting 'more of the same', but knowing what I want for my life, and remembering pieces that I had in the past.

The future is what I'm aiming for, and working toward. With a contingency plan or two...

- TTM

LA,

You remember correctly, sharing a lot, even too much. I've discovered, at least as my stbxw is concerned, my sharing too much can feel very 'pushy' to her.

I would like to share some things with stbxw now, but only a little. I think in the past my sharing volumes of my data was really more about looking for her approval than anything. Like if I explained it enough, then she'd understand and agree. Not a healthy way to be.

I miss less the person who was 'my go-to girl' as you put it, and more the fun things we did together. Things we enjoyed as a couple.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head, inside out at times is a good way of describing how I feel sometimes. Like a fish out of water. I'm getting more and more comfortable feeling this way. I've decided that instead of running from that feeling, I'm going to embrace it, and see where it takes me. I tell myself, we'll if this feels uncomfortable, it might lead you to learn something new, let's check it out.

I love what you said about connecting, you again hit the nail on the head, at least for me, don't know what's going on for her. In my honesty, respect, somehow we have had more 'intimacy' in the past month or so than in years. Real, honest, at least from me.

Not reactive, not anger, compassion, empathy and in truth, love. I don't believe she has experienced this in the same way I am, she's still reacting from anger, from what I can see. But that doesn't matter, her stuff is hers, and hopefully she'll decide to deal with it at some point.

I'm going on a camping trip with my son for a week starting on Sunday, and I invited stbxw to come up for an evening.

I don't expect she will, but it was in the asking that I was being true to my code. I desire a friendship with her, on some level, in the future. I decided to ask her to join us, because I was afraid to. That's when I decided to do it.

We'll see what she says. I'd be willing to bet, my asking threw her for a loop.

Keeping you all posted.

- TTM

Some people never gain any objectivity about the state of their marriage, the effects of their divorces, and the state of themselves.

You my friend do get it. Welcome to a minority!

TTM,

I get the sharing too much as you said, not acting from intimacy, but from self-negation. I'll agree with you on the too much, then, 'k?

That inside out feeling is what we get when we truly break our patterns...choose differently...feel new...and it goes away as you either fall back into old patterns or practice new ones into new patterns. You might say, you just got hatched feeling.



I see you as really changing your entire life experience...from the old way you experienced intimacy. Real intimacy wasn't what you thought...nor did I...and it is stunning, connective...lots of joy in it, even when it hurts.

We've were used to feeling "bad" when we'd done "badly"...and this way of living isn't like that in the same way.

Sounds to me like you're really getting okay with her anger being hers...and asking and letting the outcome go (for real)...from practice. Does it feel a bit like free fall at times, how acting from love and respect, even of ourselves, is loving well?

LA

Thanks Dutch, your continued support is really appreciated.


LA,

Again, your insight is spot on. I did believe intimacy was some kind of 'feel good' state that my partner would be on all the time, and I attempted to protect and keep that 'feel good' state by being dishonest, manipulative and almost anything else I thought it might take.

Of course, I see intimacy in a whole different way now. I also see how, in truth, I ran from it so many times. My stbxw called me out on this, she understood the feelings, but neither of us understood how to create true intimacy between us.

I am more and more becoming comfortable with her anger, and my DD's too for that matter. The stronger and more comfortable I become with 'me', the easier it is to let them be themselves too, and that includes if they want to be angry with me.

Yup, free fall seems to be a good way of describing it, does feel a bit like that. I'm getting used to it.

What I'm working on is being able to hear, and embrace her emotional statements, without being concerned about the 'facts'. She often times will say things that to me used to sound crazy, and not related to the 'topic at hand' at all. What I'm coming to understand is that she lives in a 'feeling' world, and expresses things in that way. When I'm in a good place myself, I can listen to and embrace her feelings, without getting caught up in them myself. I'm safe behind my boundaries. I realized that when my boundaries were really weak, I was always afraid she would 'take' something from me.

Getting divorced might be the healthiest thing that happened to me. I've got to a whole 'nother level of life, and I'm not going back.



- TTM

LA

Boundaries and respect...

Something that I've had a real struggle with is enforcing my boundaries. Stbxw seems to think it's ok to slam me in a multitude of ways when we meet for various reasons.

I taught her well that this behavior was ok in the past, and never challenged her perceptions or told her I wouldn't listen to her verbal abuse of me.

So I guess I'm looking for some feedback on how I can respectfully enforce my boundary in this area? I understand I can always leave the room, or hang up the phone, but what about something before I end the conversation? A warning shot of some kind...

Looking for some thoughts..

Thanks,

- TTM

when you said warning, I immediatly thought of something like an air horn, everytime she crosses the line.

But realistically, can you send an email telling her that this isn't acceptable and you will end any conversation where she behaves this way?

My wife actually did that to me a couple weeks ago. In her case she didn't like that I was giving short answers to her, although she was way off on my reasons why. But regardless, I don't think I've really given her a short response since then...and I just realized that.

Boundary enforcements...

First, state the boundary crossed...AO, DJ, SD...

Then you say (on the phone or in person), if you choose to continue crossing this boundary, I will leave for 20 minutes (hang up and call back or physically return). The airhorn is doing so when/if she does it again in the conversation.

Period.

You hold yourself to your part...and let the outcome go.

You're predetermining your enforcements which is right on!!! Think through further...after doing this in one conversation, then apply it to the next. "I know you know you crossed the DJ boundary just now. I'm going to hang up and call you back to continue in two hours if you choose to cross it again." Gotta state and define...so you're not acting out (which is really all boundary crossings if ya think about it)...all calm and real. Next conversation, happens again...you go to 24 hours. Progressive. Real.

If she DJs right off the bat in any conversation, you'll know she's okay with acting out. So then you switch to emails only...no phone or in person. Still does it, then you go to intermediary. All progressive stuff...not to control...or prevent...to enforce your own boundaries.

Thing is...when you catch yourself DJing, you gotta call yourself on it right then, too...own and amend immediately. You don't do yelling, defining, name-calling, judging stuff (okay with actions)...know your boundaries...your feelings (like anger) will signal you to them being crossed...still gotta stop and identify, then share by identifying and enforcing, 'k?

You did it when you left the conversation. Adding words, simple statements..."That's a DJ" or "That's yelling" or "That's mockery" sarcasm...know your boundaries, what you hold yourself to, 'k?

Do it with everyone...great practice, act of love and respect.

LA

Got a meeting with her on Monday night, and I'm getting ready for enforcing my boundaries.

This will be the first time I've ever enforced a personal boundary with her, up till now I've just learned to listen to her AO, DJ's, ect.. without reacting. Or sometimes mirrored them.



La, please clarify for me what you said here, what do you mean 'ok with actions'? Are you referring to it being ok for me to judge by my actions? But not verbally?

Thanks for all the support.

I just got back from a week camping with my son, and wow did we have a great time. When I got home, I got an e-mail from stbxw asking if I had a nice vacation, twice in the e-mail. It was softer than what I've gotten from her recently. I sent just a small reply, saying it was great, and thanks for asking.

I'm eagerly anticipating out meeting on Monday.

-TTM

TM,

I'm glad you had a great time with your son. Do yourself a favor and write about it...put it away for him to read about ten years from now. And you.



For your Monday meeting...what I meant about anger as a signal...

When we feel anger, it's a signal to us that a boundary is being crossed...doesn't say whether you're the one crossing the boundary or the other person. So when you feel it. Instantly stop and trace it...might be obvious...you stopped listening and repeating. You are taking her words directly into you and reacting to them. That's you crossing your boundary.

Might be her words are a DJ...defining you. So two boundaries crossed at the same time. So you listen and repeat, stating the DJ, and in doing so, asking her to confirm or clarify. Slows down the process, and it's a boundary enforcement around you. You control it.

Even within the listen/repeat you can do your half..."I heard you just say that you think I'm lazy, is that correct?" The DJ would be the statement, "You're lazy." You can adjust back to reality by rephrasing into the opinion it is...doesn't stop her; stops you from taking in her defining/name calling you.

Next enforcement, if she does it again...you listen/repeat with rephrase and add, "If you continue to state your opinion as fact, I'm going to have to remove myself for ten minutes. I feel degraded and attacked right now."

Third enforcement, you remove...stating the boundary crossing, how long you'll be gone and when you'll return to the conversation. And then you do it.

See all the opportunities for recentering yourself? You stop feeling the bullets because there's really no gun.

Same for AO's...you gotta know what yelling is to you--tone, volume, mockery, sarcasm...body language (thrusting a finger at you) and facial expressions. You are in charge of what you take in and what you hold outside of you. Get to know what sets off your anger (getting the signal) then state it. Do the same steps as above.

Mind your own DJs and AOs as well. Anger is a feeling, not a direction...we often say "I'm angry at you" and it's a lie. I feel anger right now is truth.

You're okay with judging actions...which are DJs, AOs and SDs. Not okay to judge her "I" statements "I think you're a loser and always have." Your anger doesn't tell you she's mean, bad or wrong. Your anger says you may be taking her opinion (right now) as fact...and want her to think differently. The "always" is the tip that what she's saying is right now...not even close to always...and it says more about her fear, her stuff, than you.

LA

Well,

Stbxw moved the meeting date up a day and we got together last night. We talked for a couple of hours, and I was open, honest and I think I did a really good job of mirroring and deflecting her attacks on me. She wasn't nasty at all, but there were a few moments where I felt attacked.

Then the unbelievable happened, I felt such a closeness and intimacy with her, I kissed her. Not some little peck on the cheek, but a full-blown passionate kiss. She responded in kind and we ended up making love for several hours. It was wonderful.

I didn't stay the night, I thought at this point it would be best if I didn't and she agreed.

I don't know if this means we are going to start working toward reconciliation, or if this was just a fling in a moment of weakness.

For my part, now I have to ask myself some tough questions. Can I be with this woman, if she's not working on her stuff? Would I want to?

No clarity today, I can still smell her on my skin, and I'm happy.

- TTM

Wow TTM, that is awesome! I hope things continue to work out for you in a positive way. Keep it up and stay strong.

I disagree. I don't think it is awesome at all. I think it was a mistake.

Seabird, I'm actually glad you disagree. There are both positive and negatives in this, and the future is far from certain.

Are you saying it was a mistake because he is now more emotionally involved then he was before?

I think it was a mistake for him to engage in an act as intimate as sex with her without any clear knowledge or understanding of where they are in relation to one another. Right now, he has no idea what her expectations are, and likely neither does she.

Did she feel as close and as intimate toward him as he felt toward her in that moment? Is she using sex as a weapon, inherently knowing that it's a EN for him, in order to secure a better deal for the divorce? Or has she now just confused herself even further?

I view this as a major boundary violation. TTM has been talking about the need and desire to practice boundary enforcement and in one fell swoop, completely dropped them.

Beyond the physical payoff, why would they choose to have sex before making a commitment to reconciliation? I do not believe that it's appropriate to use sex as a catalyst for reconciliation. It should be used as a tool to consummate it.

I totally and absolutely concur with Dr. Seabird that this was a huge mistake. I'm a little freaked out about it. My feeling at this juncture is that this action will only prolong the process of divorce by confusing many of the issues. Better to resist at this point.

Oh, TTM...

I can understand what you both chose to do...and I think you experienced the incredible power of eliminating LBs...and how deadly they were to your marriage.

I'm with Seabird and booka...this was you crossing your own boundary.

I hope these choices give you better insight into how much LBs drain your love bank, and how readily it can be filled...and how you still have the permission to react to your feelings in play, rather than from your beliefs.

Our own boundaries help our love banks...acting, as you did during the meeting, from respect, allowed you to experience being treated with respect, as well.

Intoxicating. Big reason why Harley says we can fall in love again and again with our spouses. You already knew this.

LA