No, I am not suggesting that you do that. I really am in no position to give you any advice on what to do, except that I think you should do whatever you feel is the right thing. And it sounds as though at this point, that is that you keep fighting for your marriage. So in that case, I'd advise you to stock your arsenal with every tool available from this site, the members here, other books, seminars, etc.

I was just offering you my perspective as a wife near the end of her rope. Our feelings of despair and hopelessness seem simlar to me. But the reasons I am at the end are obviously not the same as the reasons your wife states.

My H has not indicated any interest in Marriage Builders so that alone makes him much different than you.

Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. I don't know if it's accurate to say I'm fighting for my marriage. I don't want a divorce either, but like you said, I'm just trying to do what seems right. At this point I'm more concerned about fixing myself and being O&H about who I am and how I feel. Maybe that's all the same thing, don't know.

Ok, so here's an update. Things are actually going pretty well. My W and I communicate almost daily, mostly about parenting or financial issues, but occasionally beyond that. I feel is as if the Love Bank is starting to approach 'the black' on both of our accounts. She seems to be trusting and opening up a little more, and for the first time in a long she expressed that she cared without any obligation or reason to be polite. That felt great.

That being said, it feels like there is a ceiling on far this can all go. I don't believe she is anywhere near considering working on our relationship again. I'm sure she still has deep wounds, and does not want to go through 'all that' again. She is typically a very stubborn person who doesn't like to change her mind. As well, she has a very good safety net. Her parents are close by to help her out financially or otherwise, and she knows I'd be there for her as well.

On my side, I know that there is a lot more to be worked on then just cleaning up my account with her. Getting a point where we like each other again does not mean that issues are resolved. There are several things that I would need to change that I don't have control over. I wouldn't say that it's all her LBs or not meeting ENs, though that is a huge portion of it.

I feel like I need to go through the LB and EN questionaire's again, as I'm sure they've changed since I did them last. I don't know if I should make an attempt to communicate those to her. I really feel like I should communicate that there are issues beyond my control without being specific, just to be honest about where I stand. I also want to explain to her what I mean when I say she's beautiful (she doubts my sincerity a bit), so I think it could be good to communicate both at the same time.

Just to give an idea of thhe issues, here's a relatively minor example. The house is rarely ever clean, and even it is, it is surface only. Things are very disorganized unless I take the time to organize them, but I can only do that so much. I see this as an AH, that could easily be a DJ, and thus it just wasn't talked about much. I understand that things can't be perfect all the time, and that you can only do so much, but to be honest, a cluttered world makes me feel cluttered overall. And I hate the idea of spending money to get nice things only to see them not taken care of. I know she doesn't like it as well, and understands that I don't like it to a point, but I don't think she understands that it's not about judging her, it's about what it does to me personally to live in a cluttered home.

But am I being unreasonable? Should I learn to adjust? I can to an extent, but that is more like pretending the AH isn't there then actual adjusting. Perhaps I just don't know how to adjust properly. Maybe I need to learn to uncluttered my world and ignore the rest (like her side of the closet) Or maybe that's just a true incompatability that can't be resolved.

Clutter is my number one LB and EN (lack of). I think of it every single day. It's complicated. Anyway, I have done two things about it. I finally (after 30 years!) told my H how much the lack of attention to clutter is killing my love for him, as he is responsible for 90% of it and he makes no attempt to address it. We can go 5 years without him touching a single thing in the house or garage to address it. This weekend, after my telling him last weekend, he hung up 5 shelves for me! He even fixed my record player, which hasn't worked in 15 years! These are things I've asked for, many times, and he simply didn't hear it. But to hear me tell him it's so disrupting that I'd consider leaving him over it...well, he's getting things done (at least for now).

The other thing I have started doing is purging my house. Face it, how many magazines do we really need? How many extra pillows? Old blankets? Childhood games? Stuffed animals?

Look around at your house. Imagine a wildfire approaching. What things would you absolutely have to save? Then consider what you can get rid of that wasn't included in that list. You'll be glad you did.

Ok, one more thing. Storage. I've been buying those Cubicle things at Target one at a time, and adding to my storage space so I can find everything I need, I can see everything easily, and it gives a sense of order I imagine you are sorely lacking.

DKD, clutter's a big trigger for my H, too. He'll say, I'm emptying this room tomorrow, so whatever you want to keep, put it away before then. There may be 5 things in the whole room that I want, and I know where they are, so I get them and put them away. Worked great for us. He can pile in the car and deliver to Goodwill with 30 minutes of effort what would have taken me a day or more to sort through.

Once it's clear, it only takes me at most 15 minutes to keep it that way.

Then when I see the same things in the store again, I wait to buy them until I figure out where they would go. A lot of things I don't where they would go in my house, and that's cool with me. Like a polaroid camera. It sounds like fun, and if it was something I really wanted, I'd find a place for it, but I don't want it that badly, so the place for it to stay is at the store. If I ever need it, I know where it is

I should add, dkd, that the only room that gets cluttered anymore is the kids' toy room. And if that became an issue, they wouldn't need a toy room. As is, my H clears it out almost bare before birthdays and holidays. The kids had already put away what they wanted to keep. The rest of the whole house has stayed clean and uncluttered.

Since I have moved out, I have realized just how much peace of mind organization gave me, and stick with it pretty well. When we were still living together, it was well know that I loved getting new bins so I could organize and store things. She appreciated the organization, but did not make a big effort on her part and resented it when it became a project for me, away from the family.

Is it fair to ask your spouse to clean up their side of the closet? It seems reasonable to expect the common areas to be relatively clean, but personal spaces as well? Also, how do you do this without it turning into a DJ?

I don't know that I could just clean out a room like you guys are talking about.


...and I think I'm going to do those questionaires and let you guys know about the ones that seem the most controversal. The validation helps.

I can handle toys in the toy room to an extent, however, it drives me nuts to see DVDs and video game discs on the floor, or just not put back in the case. Tells me they don't appreciate what they have.

I'm the neat one in my house. I don't expect everyone to have the same standards as mine. In fact, I've learned to relax a LOT since I married H (a whole lot messier than me!). And he's a pack rat too, while I'm a purger.

But his refusal to even put much effort into meeting me 1/4 of the way when he knows how important it is to me is something I take as personal rejection.

It also tells you, dkd, that they may not need or even want them. I read about this also in Pam and Peggy's Slob Sister books. You can take the stuff, and hold it for a week, or let them pay to get it back. Or not. They made a fun game of it, and have a lot of other fun clutter solutions in there. For us, though, we didn't think our kids wanted that much stuff, and they agreed, so we got rid of it for good.

Another thing I do, which goes along with the DVDs on the floor, is every 6 months, my D18 and I go through her room and divide and conquer. If she has 20 or 25 stuffed animals, I'll tell her she can keep 12; she gets to pick out the 12 she wants most to keep; the rest are given away. Same with books, movies, CDs, etc. Pick a number less than what you have and give that person the option to choose what gets kept; teaches charity.

I think the closet issue needs to be discussed honestly. That it's a psychological drag on your conscience to see the disorder every morning, and you'd like to know whether she'd be willing to address it.

In the past we have done a modified version of removing un-needed toys. Basically toss it out when they aren't looking. However, I don't want to throw away DVDs, I just want them taken care. For awhile, I went with grounding him from playing video games if my son (8 year old) doesn't put the discs away properly. But it felt like it was just me...I didn't feel like W was with me on that. And since DS is not mine by birth, I often feel like I have limited parenting authority. The plan lasted about 2 weeks.

Add to that that DS8 has 3 sets of grandparents and 2 dads, he often can get what he wants with little effort and honestly doesn't know the value of it. I really dislike that I have so little control over things in that regard.

That really ties into another issue I have...the role of her parents in our relationship. Her parents are well off, and will help out wherever they can. It's difficult knowing that while on vacation, her parents can and would show her a better time then I can afford to...and she has been unsatisfied with what I can provide in the past. I don't want to compete with her parents in that regard. It would be one thing if I couldn't provide a decent vacation, but I do pretty well. Even now, the home is filled with furniture and things that her parents have gotten for her since the separation...and I dread, if I ever move back, having to ask for these things to be removed.

One example was the kitchen table. When it came time to get a bigger table years ago, her parents were going to give us thier old one. She wanted it, but I was hesitant because I'm not fond of glass tables, it wasn't in great condition, and I wanted our own table. It was my fault that I was being picky...it was generous of her parents, and other husbands wouldn't care. Am I not suppossed to have a opinion about the home I live in?

She is aware of all this, and doesn't want to be dependent on her parents. However, she will pick her battles and totally cave in on other areas. She will hold her ground on the things that are needed, but will accept anything she can justify as a gift.

I like her parents. They are fun people. It's not personal, I just want to be our own family.

I have often felt like it's her established life and it's been my job to fit into it.

and I think it's getting buried, so I'll ask again. In a situation where you are separated and the spouse is sold on divorce, is it appropriate to let them know that you have unmet ENs and met LBs without being specific. I don't expect W to work on anything since she has expressed that she won't, but to also understand that they are there. In a way, I want to set a boundary. If she ever wanted to get back, I wouldn't just accept her back without questions, I would need to know that certain issues (my own and others) would be addressed.

Dkd, how would you feel aout saying "No thanks, we're planning to find a table that we both like." Or, "Thanks for the table, but we're redecorating, want first dibs before we put it on craigslist?"

Dkd, in general, the same way you give others here good advice about respecting that their spouses are rational people capable of working through issues together, how about "acting as if" your W is a rational person and you two can find solutions you both like?

You are absolutely right. This is an example from years ago, and although I knew this then, I probably made two mistakes. I'm sure I DJ'd, and I caved in. And I probably wasn't honest about how I felt either. Guess that's 3.

It's not so much that I don't think she's rational, it's that I am afraid that I'm not rational, or that she wouldn't care anyway. That's why I need validation that clutter is an actual AH, and not just my problem. My confidence is not what it needs to be.

Honesty is always the best answer, IMO. If you're married, you're supposed to be best friends. If you're not best friends, you shouldn't be married.

Clutter is a very real need. Any you feel is worth feeling. Unless you're being vindictive, of course. Jayne can tell you more about it.

hmmmm, I definitely see your point and it makes think I need to reread Boundaries. As I think about, I understand that a boundary is in the general vicinity, but I haven't clearly marked it or enforced. As you stated, done anything about it. I also have opted to redraw a boundary further in, in hopes that that new line won't be crossed. I convince myself that the boundary wasn't in the right place to begin with.

For example, when it comes to clutter, I convince myself that it's not a problem, only perception of it is, or that I just shouldn't care. So the next time the border is crossed, I say that I'm doing the right thing and giving my wife some freedom, when I'm really allowing her to LB me with an AH and not giving her a chance to even address it. It's not good for either of us.

I guess that's what I mean when I say that avoiding a boundary prevents a DJ. If I redraw my boundary, then no judgment needs to be made at all. A cope out for sure.

As for having DJ thoughts, I absolutely do. Not as much as I used to as I am practicing anti-DJ in my head. But in many cases, I'm not thinking "She's so lazy for not cleaning up the house". I'm also not thinking that "A clean uncluttered house really gives me peace of mind, and I really need that". What I'm thinking is "What's wrong with me? Why do I care? If I say anything, she'll just be mad at me. Why can't I just change."

Both the first and last options get me in trouble...

And both of which are disrespectful and harmful to BOTH of you. Not a marriage. Neither of you should be living in an environment in which you feel unheard, disrespected, or unwanted.

Honest conversation about your feelings is paramount. Even something you are afraid she will take wrong. It is YOUR feeling; therefore it is a VALID feeling. Not wrong, not right, just yours. Just as she has her own.

LA said it best when she told me that NOT telling my H how I feel about something is me disrespecting him, by not letting him know how I feel and giving him the opportunity to please me if he wishes.

Hi dkd,

Found you again. Thanks for moving the discussion. I don't have a thread to call home, so it's nice to meet at yours.

The longer I've been thinking and learning about DJs, the more I come to the conclusion that it's not simply the DISRESPECTFUL judgements that cause distance and stress, but also the OVER-respectful ones. That, to me, is the continuum, which seems quite independent of boundary enforcement: if you're hot then you tell yourself you're better than the other, if you're cold you tell yourself the other is better than you.

If I feel better than you, I'll see me as important and virtuous, you as irrelevant, weak or wrong, and feel impatient when you tell me your needs and disdainful when you try to meet mine.

If I feel worse than you, I'll see me as broken, useless and probably destined for misery, you as advantaged and privileged, and feel helpless and jealous and depressed because that means I think nobody would ever deign to meet my needs, nor can I really contribute to your happiness because what could a wretch like me probably give to you?

In both cases, I don't see you for what you are anymore. In that case, we can't really communicate, POJA, or meet the other's needs. Like your example, your wife is blissfully unaware that she's doing something that annoys the living daylights out of you, all because you think there's something wrong with you because you're bothered by clutter.

I agree with you, the anti-other-directed DJ-thoughts are easiest to implement. However, I think many people (I sure tend to) do what you're also doing - judging your OWN needs disrespectfully and drawing some overly respectful (and therefore not truly respectful at all) conclusions about what you think her needs are.

The only way out that I've managed to determine is to try and stop judging altogether (so don't tell yourself "I should not judge" because even that's a judgement!), which is crazy hard, and try to get the information I want right from the source.

Which requires some trust and fancy communication skills and openness to suspend any judgements. And compassion for your own needs, even if you're not quite clear what they are and even if you have a ham-fisted way of trying to get them met. And compassion for others' needs, even if they don't seem like something you'd ever need, and even if THEY have a ham-fisted way of trying to get them met.

I love the radicalness of the policy of Radical Honesty in this. To truly figure out what you need, and not simply projecting the feeling you have on others.

My favorite radical honesty tool is Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication. It's dead simple (and wickedly difficult), and has only 4 steps.
1: Observation - There's magazines on the couch and toys everywhere (just guessing - of course you'll have some things that bother you way more).
2: Feeling - (always some variation of happy/angry/sad/afraid) I feel anxious, restless and frustrated
3: Need - I need a peaceful environment
4: Request - Most effectively something like 'How'd you feel about setting aside more time for decluttering,' 'Would you please tell me what you think about what I'm saying,' 'What would make it possible for you to be happy about cleaning more?' - things that open communication and don't feel like demands.

Ideally, you could try to figure out HER observations, feelings and needs as well, but this kind of give-and-take usually descends into escalating requests in my house, so we tend to give each other 15 minutes (in which one listens to observations, feelings and needs of the other without asking for requests too quickly, so they'll feel properly listened to) and then switch.

Tends to work.

I think I'll still be learning to the day I die, though, but the improvements have been remarkable.

And the fun thing is: this works wonders to shore up your boundaries as well! The minute you're respectful of your own needs, you can say to others: "Look, this is what I need right now. I would like it if you would help me meet this need, but it's OK if you don't. However, I'm going to take some time to meet my own needs and I'll come back to listen to yours the moment I feel up to it."

(Or something marginally less cheesy, if you can think of it!)

WD, I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I guess I hadn't. What you said makes a ton of sense, and I'm realizing that I need to reevaluate a lot of things.

Cat, your comments as well. I haven't really thought about how disrespectful it was to someone else when you are not enforcing your own boundaries.

So I know I need to figure out where on stand on things, where my boundaries really are, but then I need to figure out how to apply them. I know that they should be reinforced going forward, but is it right to restate boundaries on past decisions, or on areas that no longer apply?

For example, I understand that I shouldn't have moved out of the house, but I did. I have promised not to push her out and I have no problem keeping that promise. But is it wise to explain to her that I feel that the decision was wrong and why? That would be honest, but her response would not be good, and probably go over easier at a different time. I don't want to lie if the issue comes up again, but I don't know that I should make it an issue.

Other areas are not so tough, like the clutter issue I mentioned earlier. Even though it does not apply right now since we are not living together, it seems appropriate to communicate that. I believe right now that she sees the issue as a judgemental thing and therefore it would probably be somewhat as a relief if she can see it as something else. She has said in the past that she doesn't think she could make me happy. I imagine that there may be enough of these types of smaller things that I can't just spill them all at once.

A part of me thinks that it's all immaterial since she has stated that she is not interested in marriage anymore. However, we will have a relationship of some sort going forward, and it seems like communicating boundaries seems like a good way to help reconciliation occur.

And somewhat unrelated, I sent her an email last night, covering 3 topics. One is that I wanted to thank her for being supportive of me coaching our 4 year old with soccer.

Two requires some background. After I dropped off our 4 year old from soccer practice last night, our 4 year old took it pretty hard. He is fine most of the time, but sometimes it hits him hard. So in the email I said that when that happens, I feel for him and for her. I said that I used to feel guilty and get angry, but I don't anymore. I just try and think of how I can make things better for them. In hindsight, I suspect she might think my reference to being angry means I was angry at her, which is not really accurate.

Third also requires some background. About a week ago I told her that I thought she looked good, and she responded that I always say that, implying that I said it when she wasn't trying to look her best and doubted my sincerity in a way. So in the email I stated that I say it when I think it, and when I think it's the right time. I don't always say it when I think it, and I sometimes say it when it's not the right time. My only goal in saying it is that she might feel good, and that I might feel good for being honest. I wanted to say that it was sincere, and I wasn't trying to butter her up or anything, but I figure that would only have the reverse effect.

She hasn't responded, which is fine. I'm annoyed with myself a bit for wanting a response.