What is the appropriateness of H's and W's having friends of the opposite sex?

Suppose W is in school and has some time between classes. Is it ok for her to have coffee with a male classmate in a coffee shop in the area?

Suppose H is interested in jogging but W has no interest. Is it ok for H to go jogging with a female acquaintance?

W and I had a discussion about this topic tonight and we have very differing opinions.

JMHO but I have always had boundaries with men. I work with 15 engineers. We laugh and have fun at work, but I would never have coffee with just one. We occasionally have lunch together, but that is the whole group.

If my husband didn't want to jog with me, I would jog with a female friend.

Basically, when you are married, your best friend should be your spouse.

I think a couple can still have friends of the opposite sex, but nothing personal should be discussed, they should not take time away from the marriage. Their spouse should be in enthusiastic agreement about the time the friends spend together.

I agree with everything believer said. Well, I have had coffee with just one guy, but it's never in a personal way at all... and if it started getting personal, I would stop. It's usually to discuss a project or something. Business.

I am in a male-dominated field. If I couldn't be friends (not close, best friends, but just work-related friends) with guys, then a lot of the time there would be no one I could talk to. I'm used to going out with the guys for lunch, or being "one of the guys". But if any of my friends are married, I make sure that it's obvious that I consider their wife also a friend and that my, um, "allegiance" is with her.

If I start feeling like we're getting too friendly, I back off. If the guy starts talking about personal stuff, especially if he starts complaining about his wife, first I defend her and then I don't stay around when that talk starts up. I've been the BW and I just have no tolerance for that. I think the women who know me realize that I am a "friend" to their M, that if anything I will be an advocate in their favor when they aren't around. This has actually happened a couple times when I think their M may have been having problems; I would overhear the guys talking, but I refused to to hang around when they started complaining about their wife. And when I found an opportunity, I would say something in defense of the wife. It was the other guys who would encourage griping about their wives.

I don't go anywhere or do anything that my H wouldn't be welcome to join. We're in the same field, so it's natural that his name come up, and that he will meet anyone I associate with, and vice versa.

From what I've read here, I think a lot of people would not be able to maintain appropriate boundaries. I think my H and I can... but I recognize there's no guarantee. Just today I felt bad that my H was talking to a young woman who looks a little like I may have looked years ago... and I realized that I shouldn't take it for granted that our M is affair-proof. (And we talked about it tonight... yes, my H actually talked to me when I said 'Can we talk?' For those who don't know, that's my biggest EN that he meets the least.)

It isn't easy maintaining boundaries... and the thing is, if you start to cross the boundary, then you start thinking that you don't care, you're ok with crossing that boundary. Which is not the state of mind that will promote maintaining healthy boundaries.

In my experience you are on a very slippery slope with this. It can be totally innocent at first but then the relationship can start to develop and then one party can be vulnerable to an EA.

Why take the chance of introducing problems into the marriage?

I agree with bcboy. My answer is no friends of opposite sex that you spend time alone with. Of course you have friends of the opposite sex when you are friends with a couple. But one-on-one should be off limits, period.

Not to hijack this thread, but what about when same sex friends (girls/guys nights out) start to fulfill the need for intimacy and communication instead of the spouse? Should you back off from that as well?

I think we've had threads where this very thing was a major problem.

Not just with them meeting the need for intimacy and communication, but any time you are with others when you are having a good time more than you are with your spouse, is putting your intimacy with your spouse in jeopardy.

To build intimacy, you want your spouse to be your *best* friend. You want them to meet the great majority of your ENs. You want your spouse to associate good times with being with *you*, not out with "the girls" or "the guys". Like I said, it was the guys who I overheard encouraging another guy to stand around complaining about their spouse.

I hope what I posted wasn't interpreted as saying it is ok to form close personal friends with members of the opposite sex. My point was the opposite, but it may have gotten buried.

No one on one opposite sex interaction. Too much at risk. What can't be said/done with that person that can't be said or done in front of a group of people? One spouse may think it's silly, but if it does bother the other, the spouse should be willing to make their partner feel secure and be considerate of their feelings. If it's all innocent then it shouldn't be a big deal to limit interaction like that.


In this instance the same applies. No one should be fulfilling intimacy and communication in lieu of your spouse. That doesn't mean you have to have sterile relationship with your same sex friends. If some one doesn't get those things from their spouse they should work on those issues instead of accepting a surrogate.

W and I are 4 weeks into R and this topic came up last night. She thinks I am unreasonable in not wanting her to have opposite sex friends. She doesn't like the way women often act (backstabbers, gossips, etc). I didn't want to turn the talk into an LB so I didn't mentioned her A which started as "just friends". Our R has been going well; holding, cuddling, kissing, etc. After this discussion last night, she was kind of cold. I felt like we took a step backwards. She is a very attractive women but does not see herself as such. She has no clue about how men will say or do almost anything to get sex. In this fragile state of our relationship, her starting to befriend male classmates could be a nightmare for our R.

Sounds like excuses for her to seek out guys for attention IMO. Her need for admiration is not feed by the women, but by the men who pursue her.

Yes, there are women that are back-stabbers and gossips. There are also men that do the same thing. There are also both men and women who do not indulge in that. If she seeks out women who don't act in that way, she will find them.

If a spouse,particularly a BS,objects to a S,especially a WS, having an opposite spouse as a friend,that should be all they need to know,honestly. They have already proved they can not be trusted and they have to work hard to build that trust back up,even after R has been long ongoing.

I can certainly agree that a FWS should NEVER be trusted to have friends of the opposite sex.

I will say though that I have maintained opposite sex friendships for almost 30 years now. Only once during that time did a friendship turn into something more. Both of us were free and clear of other relationships and decided to give dating a try. I have never crossed a line with a friend and nor have they done so with me.

I see nothing wrong with the jogging scenario. I would suggest avoiding things that are more intimate...dinners, movies, etc. I also would strongly suggest never using the osf to vent relationship issues.

Some people are capable of maintaining appropriate boundaries in life. Others need to be monitored more closely. If a person has shown themselves to be responsible with their friendships and boundaries, I think they are due a bit more latitude than those that have not. I liken it to be able to drink alcohol in a responsible fashion. Just because others cannot handle even one drink in a responsible fashion does not mean that others should be saddled with the same limitations.

Of note, I am not one that buys into the belief that every person is at risk for an affair.

It’s okay to have friends of the opposite sex, as long as they are friends of the marriage and friends of both spouses. Trouble and slippery slopes usually develop when 2 opposite sex friends start spending time alone regularly (by doing seemingly “innocent” things like coffee or share activities both are interested in like jogging) and in this way start excluding the spouses from the friendship.

I disagree for those that have had affairs. Not only shouldn't your own spouse trust that...but I would sincerely doubt that the wife of the friend would be very happy knowing that their husband is friends with a person that had an affair (especially if they didn't inform the OBS). I would wonder if I was the next person to be left in the dark.

I do agree that ANY friends should also be a friend of the marriage.

What about in a healthy M that has not been scarred by adultery? Someone brought up earlier about the male-dominated fields. My field is so male-dominated, it is an old boys club. I'm only "in it" (and that's actually a stretch - I'm really just on the fringes) because I'm good at what I do. I have to interact with men - sometimes one on one. Most men that I work with I consider colleagues, not friends. But some I consider friends as well and still keep in touch with former male colleagues. Not saying any were/are close friends, but friends nonetheless. Wstbx knew all of them, but was rarely there when I was around them (which was primarily at work or work-related functions). I wouldn't call them friends of the M.

I was the BS. I didn't have an A. I didn't come close to having an A. I have definitely been hit on at work, but believe me that disgusts me for reasons above and beyond the fact that I was married (in an old boys club, it is still considered necessary for women to "work" their way in and pardon me if that makes me sick).

My boundaries are what I make them. I never felt like I was ever close to crossing them. Creeps like above that tried to cross them soon learned their lesson. Honestly, I didn't find it difficult at all. I really don't understand how Wstbx DID because he was NOT in an opposite-sex field at all. In fact, I can't understand any WS's difficulty with this because I just never EVER felt any pressure at all.

So I find these threads hard to understand sometimes, though I can see it in the case of a FWS since they've demonstrated that they DO have difficulty. If I didn't interact with males, I would not be in the position I'm in now and I would have been financially screwed on d-day. And the position I'm in now, in the old boys club, had NO BEARING on what happened to my M.

I heard the same thing about women "being backstabbers and gossips".

This isn't about women being backstabbers and gossips. It's about boundaries and about insecurity which leads to this need for male attention.

My ex made friends with a young kid at the base we were stationed in the UK. I didn't know about this friendship and found out about it by surprising her one day that i got out of work early and wandered over to the community center to see her since that's where she was "studying".

Well, her "studying" involved playing video games with this guy.

I was not pleased at all about this. She was meeting with another man and I didn't know about it. She didn't tell me this guy would be there and I found out that she had been texting him a bunch and talking to him all the time.

We had huge arguments over this. She kept saying to me that he was just a friend and that I was being unreasonable and jealous and that there was nothing going on. I told her it was inapporpriate and that I didn't trust him and his intentions.

I told her that I was only comfortable with her talking to him at the store he worked at but that I was not comfortable with him hanging out alone with her.

That's where we compromised, but the signs of poor boundaries were there when we were married. She also liked to go dancing at the base bar and to go salsa dancing with guys from the Puerto Rico Guard.

I wasn't comfortable with this. I think she got a kick out of me showing a little jealousy.

But it showed she had poor boundaries. And she did eventually stray.

So no, opposite sex friends are a dicey proposition.

I think that one on one meetings with opposite sex friends are ok if it's business related. How is that?

One of my squadronmates was a woman, an instructor, and a pilot.

She was a mentor to me and someone I deeply respected.

We were teamed up for the war. We lived together (same compound, different rooms) we ate together, we hung out together, and we spent tons of hours flying in and out of Iraq.

There's obviously a bond there that developed, but it was always more of a teacher-mentee bond. She's someone I very much admire and respect.

But she was married and I was married and we had unspoken boundaries which respected that. We didn't hang out one on one outside of the cockpit or if we did it was to study or prepare for the next mission.

There were strong boundaries there, but some people don't have any.

Same squadron/different woman:

The "Major Combat Operations" were over and we were having a beach party. We were sitting around and having a few and chatting. One of the other women in the squadron put her feet on me and said, "rub my feet".

I was pretty shocked by the gesture and simply ignored it. The thought in my head was, "the only feet I'm ever rubbing are my wife's feet".

The incident bugged me, but I let it go as something naive or in poor taste on her part.

I also have some very longtime female friends. I very much limited my contact with them to emails and an occasional phone call and it was always when my W was around or with her knowledge. Would have felt wrong otherwise.

So the answer is a big "no" to opposite sex friends, but interaction is sometimes inevitable.

medc has a good point.

When my WW was fresh out of dday, I called one of her friendships into question (with a male friend). She said "it's no big deal"...then I asked her if I were to ask his wife if it were a big deal , "what do you think she would say?" (her friends wife probably knew about my wife's new sl#tty hobby). My guess was that his wife would say to him "stay the f#ck away from the wh#re"...or something along those lines.

My point being that not only is it a dangerous line to cross for the WS and the OP (ahem...friend), but gauranteed the OM (ahem ...friends) wife would not condone him hanging out with a cheater.

JMO

I agree with no close friends of the opposite sex. As a BS the EA started as "just friends". I don't think it is possible for opposite sex to be good friends. My FWW says the same. Always remember, if you would not do it in front of your spouse, you don't need to be doing it!

I believe even if a married person would be “immune” to an A (which I don't believe but let's assume it's true) and be able to maintain a friendship on platonic level even if he/she would spend time alone with the opposite sex friend and filling each other's EN's for conversation and recreational companionship all the time, he/she must still not do it out of respect and consideration for his/her spouse and marriage. It’s inappropriate for a married person to spend time alone regularly with an opposite sex friend whether or not the friends are capable of maintaining the friendship on platonic level or not.

Personally I wouldn't see a problem with a spouse working with the opposite sex...who really has a choice with that? You going to just look for work with the same sex, then quit every time a male employee is hired? That's just silly.

The reason YOU can do it is because you aren't a cheater.

WS's have lost the right to be in that sort of situation, because they have already proven that they can't handle it.

As long as you have your EP's in place (regarding working with the opposite sex), and if something happens where your boundaries may have been "approached" you follow Radical Honesty with your spouse, then I think you will continue to do just fine.

If you find that you don't feel that Radical Honesty toward your spouse (regarding a co-workers potentially harmful behavior) is neccesary....then you are probably going to end up in an affair...at some point.

YEP!