ears, thanks. You know, when I say I don't feel safe, all it really means is that I'm afraid of a fight with him, plain and simple. Because I am SUCH a conflict avoider. Getting in an argument, to me, is probably worse than something worse, because I don't have faith in myself and take all criticism so poorly. So when I say fear, all I mean is getting in an argument. How sad is that?

It is not silly to fear conflict. Many of us fear conflict, and that feeling is quite serious. It can be very debilitating. Do not chide yourself for feeling fear. You feel what you feel.

The key is how you react to that feeling. You can still do what you know you need to do despite feeling fear. You can be brave. I know you can.

Thanks, Hold. Your success gives me hope. Are things good with you?

I don't think that's sad to want to avoid fighting and criticism. It's a big lovebuster. I think there are ways to work through conflict and find win-win solutions that do not have room for fighting and criticism. You remember the Four Guidelenes for Successful Negotiation? That's one of them, to keep it pleasant, and to stop when it's unpleasant.

"No one ever helps me." That sounds unrealistic to pressure yourself to try to talk someone through that. What about, "Ouch." LA told me to envision a hopper on my head, that would filter out all the bad stuff. They had a lot of support in their walk, going to MC and IC and Alanon. I don't think this is something that is fair to yourself take upon your shoulders without a lot of support.

I am 35... two of my grandparents were civil rights activists and I grew up in a very integrated area. I guess the concept of 'that's just the way it is' is hard for me to grasp in this case.

My H's parents were very NOT civil rights activists. I think you'd be surprised how rampant such attitudes still are. And it's not just white on black. It's black on hispanic, hispanic on black, hispanic on white, white on hispanic, even black on white. Those friends of ours on our street? Their next door neighbor (who is black) got on their case for socializing with us. And our friends said he said flat out 'why are you associating with white people?' No lie.

My H was one of maybe 50 white people in an all-black high school. He's always been integrated with black people. Like I said, it really isn't about race to him - it's about his anger at what he's lost out on in the world, how he is the ultimate victim and every single person out there is only there to take from him.

If you're intimating that I am the person saying 'that's just the way it is,' then you haven't read my whole thread.

Hi Cat,

Another thing: the book I mentioned also has a very nice approach to enabling people to see the illogic in their convictions. The method allows people to give their currently illogical partner 'just enough rope to hang themselves' (my words, not his!) - if you can stay current on being compassionate about their frustration and sadness, eventually they'll coax THEMSELVES out of their illogical stance, instead of getting more entrenched in it because they feel defensive, which often happens when someone else points out the illogical ideas.

If you have time for reading and you can get it from the library, please do! It's a fun read, at the very least.

Wolf

Hi cat,

I just thought of something I could offer.


You know, in some ways I sometimes feel I'm like your H, but I hope I'm not that bad and I hope I'm getting better. I want to thank you for everything you've shared, that's helped me to see ways I could improve myself.

There are times when I feel like H doesn't do enough. We've worked out a way of dealing with that though. I let him know how I'm feeling, and he lists off the things he is doing. It actually helps me not feel so bad!

He used to think I was complaining, and he would retreat, and we would both sulk. Now, I can express how I feel in such a way that he knows it's just my sharing how I'm feeling. And if he actually is doing things that I'm overlooking (which is usually the case) then he can list those things, in a simple informative way and not in a bitter way. When I see all the things he's contributing, I don't feel so bad.

And if he doesn't have anything to mention, then he jumps in and starts doing something to help!

Do you think that, when your H starts complaining that no one helps him, that you could thoughtfully mention the things you do? Not in an argumentative way. It may take quite a few tries before it starts to work, but maybe it will help him see that he isn't the only one doing things?

Thanks. I just added it to my book list.

I don't know, jayne. I've done that many times before. D17 actually brought that up with him, she said 'you act like we don't do anything, that you have to do it all, but you never pay attention to all the work we do do. Mom is always working, always washing clothes, picking up, picking up YOUR stuff too, cleaning, sweeping, going through stuff. And I'm always cleaning the kitchen and vacuuming and my rooms and the catbox and sweeping outside...lots of stuff, but it always gets done, so you don't see it when it's NOT getting done; you just assume we're not doing anything. You just need to stop playing the victim, cos it's not fair to us."

Bless her heart.

One time, per IC's request, when he knew I was seeing her for depression, I went over a long list of things I do regularly and told him that I'm just too stressed with so much to do, and that it would really help me mentally if he would just take one chore off my hands that he'd be responsible for, so I could mentally take a little load off in my mind. Could be as small as washing a load of towels once a week. He said no. Said he never knew his schedule, couldn't promise he'd be able to get to it.

I think that day was the day I started turning off from him. I remember it so clearly, so it's obviously a traumatic event or I wouldn't remember it so well. The day I realized he really didn't care if he helped me get better.

Cat, how about the "seek to understand, then to be understood," but in ways that you are enthusiastic about. Maybe you need a timer. LA talks about the communicaion exercises, and it's like what your H is doing, only it's limited to 20 minutes, then you repeat for 5, then he clarifies for 5, and then you get a turn the next time. Am I right that you'd be A LOT more enthusiastic if it had a time limit, and you'd get a turn, too? I remember in the Friends of Good Conversation article, that copnversation needs to be 50-50, or it's going to be boring. What boundaries are you enthusiastic about setting around yourself here? Can you just tell him, you listened to him two hours a day for years, and you aren't built to withstand that (would drive most of us batty) and need to structure it better in a way that you can be enthusitic about it? Then, when time's up, just remind him, and go into your 5 minute repeat/validation. Then he gets 5 minutes to clarify, and that's it, time's up! What do you think?

I don't mean that he needs to be silent outside of that time. But outside of that time, what about making conversation 50-50, and giving him a gentle reminder when you are getting bored when it's not 50-50, or when he launches into things that you don't like, like the poor-me blame-game stuff and the hate speech? Would that make you enthusiastic?

And the drive home, you already said that drives you nuts. What about a short call, 5-10 minutes of 50-50 conversation, with no racial epithets? What would you be enthusiastic about, cat, when you envision what your life would be like?

Cat,

Couple of things...

I'm hearing "Darned if you do and darned if you don't"...I just read your last post about him not doing anything...and a few posts back, I read where he was doing and you were fearing he was doing only for SF.

Which do you want? Him doing (and he worked on the shelves, helped with the clean up and dishes...listened for two hours while DD and you said your piece) or not doing?

What's right now, really?

When he does more now, do you reach back and pick up what he said/didn't do before?

When you recounted this conversation:


You went head to head about him, his stuff...what he says...not about how you take or respond to it...how you feel. You got to it in the post, did you in real life?

As illustration only...you said "So how do you see that no one is helping you?" What if you chose to own your stuff and share, instead? "When I hear you say you see no one helping you, all I know is it makes me want to NOT help you; no matter what I do, help or not, forego my own work to keep from getting blamed, I feel blamed anyway." My own further: "I feel discounted, unappreciated, insignificant and belittled."

Bet he'd be interested in that instead of "You're wrong to say, think, feel, believe what you do, H. I'll prove you wrong."

You feel blamed...and I think it's because you are blaming...inside and out...and he can't stop you blaming yourself...he sure can share his experience of feeling abandoned, inside and out...not blaming you for it. He feels it--doesn't mean you do it. I don't see you or DD doing it...he can still feel it. His own issues. You have your own. Seems to me he isn't who he was...and he WANTS to share with you...not make you fix him, keep him from feeling abandoned...sure can be your experience.

What if...he worked on those shelves because you spoke directly to him...and he heard his most beloved humans share with him their own stuff...where they hurt and don't hurt, how they experience him...so he wanted to be close to you--to feel accepted by you, his ally, his lover, his best friend and partner?

You won't know until you ask...not assume. There are miracles in your house for the taking, Cat. You're one of them. There are more. Open, own and share...your experience as yours. Not to refute or change his experience.

Rewording for ownership and sharing:

DD17: "I see you as acting like we don't do anything, that you have to do it all. I don't feel appreciated, given attention to all the work we do. I see Mom always working, always washing clothes, picking up, picking up YOUR stuff too, cleaning, sweeping, going through stuff. And I'm always cleaning the kitchen and vacuuming and my rooms and the catbox and sweeping outside...lots of stuff, but it always gets done. I believe you you just assume we're not doing anything. I perceive you just playing the victim. I don't feel loved, appreciated, admired or valued by you."



Have you shared this with him, recalling just what you wrote? Your beliefs are worth sharing--not to get him to change...to do or not do...because knowing you is the greatest prize in life, Cat. Just is...and we learn how to hold what is most precious to us...doesn't stay that shining emerald in our palms...can seem a coiled snake striking us with venom. Up to us to know the truth (most prized) even when we don't feel like we are, or that we do.

LA

lol, I'd be enthusiastic about being alone!

I don't know. I can try to bring it up, if I can get the nerve. I just have to figure out how to bring it up without me actually saying that what he does bothers me. I guess I need actual words, normal words (no offense, lol, ears) that would sound like I wasn't repeating from a MC textbook, cos he won't go for that at all.

I did share that with him, a year or two later, that I felt him saying that was telling me that he didn't care. He didn't even remember saying it. But then he said 'but I don't have time to do anything. You'll just have to accept that.'

About him doing things, I'm sure you'll remember that, before I came to MB, we went about 3-4 years when he didn't touch the house, except to mow the yard. I think that my changing approach has opened him up somewhat so that he feels more like doing for me. So it's kind of accurate that, on the whole, he doesn't, but now he is starting to, if that makes any sense. Since I came here in October, he has fixed those shelves, put up Christmas lights, pressure washed the driveway, cleaned the carpets for a party, made dinner a few times, and started working on D17's car. So I'm seeing progress.

You're right, that I'm not sharing my feelings with him. I'm working on it, but my experience is that whenever I have, he gets mad (defensive) and then goes into a tirade about how picked on HE is, and why am I not feeling sorry for HIM instead of me, cos he's got it worse? So I just quit sharing.

I'll think about it.

Cat, I think it's not really about what he'll go for. I think it's about what you are willing and unwilling to choose to participate in. I think you're more a lot powerful to make an awesome life for yourself and your family, one you love, than you give yourself permission to.

I don't think you need to leave him to get out from under his thumb. He didn't react much to your changes so far. I think he loves you and wants you to be happy, and he can handle whatever that takes.

Thanks ears. I guess I need to hear that now and then, cos it doesn't feel like it from this side. But I am sure you're right.

I just have to give myself credit, just like I try to get H to give himself credit at his work.

So, we went to Orlando, got back 6am Sunday, spent the whole week waiting for Tropical Storm Fay to go away, which it finally did - the day we left. I swear, we should hire out our vacation plans to people so that they can make sure they DON'T go wherever we go, since we experience some natural disaster on every trip we take. Had a great time, though, despite the rain, short lines and all.

The only hassle aside from the weather was H's predisposition for negativity, about which D17 called him out this time - a lot. We only had two real issues, though, both having to do with H getting mad at me for messing up. First time, I plugged in the wrong address in the GPS and we drove 20 miles the wrong way the second day, and he pulled his typical slamming on the steering wheel, huffing and puffing, sighing, etc. We finally get to Universal, I'm trying to stop crying, he asks me if I'm going to be mad at him all day, I just say no and walk away, then D17's friend goes into a store - which caused our problems the first day, and escalated them the second day. In H's opinion, spending money for a park, and then wasting the time in the park in stores is a huge no-no, and he spent half the day Sunday griping about D17's friend having to stop in every store. Anyway, he decided we didn't need him, all we wanted to do was shop, we didn't care about him, yada yada, and he started leaving the park. I kept stopping him and talking to him, knowing all the while I should just let him go, but I was too fearful he'd ruin the rest of the week, so I basically kissed up to him enough to get him to turn around. Then we ended up having a good time.

Then Thursday something else happened, and we went through the same thing, but this time I lost it, and locked myself in the bathroom, crying. He broke open the door and came in and we talked, and I basically told him we couldn't live with it any more, something had to change, and he said he didn't want me to be upset and he needed to know what he was supposed to do, and I said "Honestly? You need to find a good therapist, and go to therapy until you can learn to stop seeing nothing but bad all around you, cos I can't handle it any more."

So I didn't tell him I was thinking of leaving, but at least I told him what I needed from him. He was really nice the next day, it didn't wear off until the day after that, but even then he wasn't totally griping 24/7. So all in all, it was a decent trip for once. Maybe even productive. I even voiced my opinion when he finally did want to go shopping and picked out a shirt (and baseball cap!) I know D17 will never wear. I ended up buying it for her, along with the shirt she really wanted, to please him, but at least I didn't just go along with him without saying anything. It's uncomfortable, but I'm trying.

The weird thing that happened, was that D17's friend, who is dating someone D17 and I think is abusive toward her (has all the signs), didn't see anything wrong with H blowing up in the car that first day we went the wrong way. So I had to ask myself if I had just been overreacting, that he's really not as abrasive as I think. I talked to D17 about it, and she thinks she just doesn't see the cumulative effect of living with it for years like we do. I also think she is predisposed to dating abusive guys - her last 2 boyfriends were pretty bad to her - so she just doesn't think it's wrong for a guy to act that way. What do you guys think?

Wow. Reading what you just wrote, I find myself feeling angry. That's my initial reaction.

I'm uncomfortable replying right now, cus I don't know if I'm right, or just projecting my own stuff, or if what I write won't be helpful, or what. Let me think about it ok? But just so you know, my initial reaction is that you shouldn't have to put up with that.