I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with my W while she drove to work. It was over something I did Sunday night. I had unplugged our freezer and ruined a lot of food. My W found it yesterday completely defrosted. She then became very upset with me. It wasn't this one incident that is the problem. She then begins to think about all the other mistakes I have made in the past and it causes her to feel indifferent towards me and our marriage. I knew she was thinking this way before I even talked to her this morning only confirming my thoughts once I told her how I thought she felt. Later that evening I tried to reconnect with her only to be spurned by her telling me she was to tired and wanted to go to sleep when I wanted to discuss the matter. Knowing full well she was upset with me. Instead of her telling me she didn't want to talk about it an excuse was given to get her out of it. I would have rather her tell me the truth. That she was upset with me and we could discuss it tomorrow. We did eventually discuss it this morning. She asked me to post this to get feedback.

The other problem I am having with her is that I am overly obsessing about her and how she feels towards me. I am loving my W to the point she feels smothered by it and she tells me it is pushing her away. I can't seem to not think about her all throughout the day to the point it interferes with my normal thinking process. I know I can't control how she feels about me but when she gets upset with me it only makes me want to try harder to show her how much I do love her. I also told her that I didn't feel that she is loving me back as I love her. That I am not her center of the world so to speak. I don't feel the affection that I desire out of our marriage. I don't feel the admiration for the things I do for her. Which in turn makes me obsess even more over her feelings towards me. I know I am relying on her to make me feel better. I just can't reach deep enough inside of me to stop it. I have tried many exercises from the books I have read and I can't find the feelings to make myself feel better. Its very frustrating and it makes me frustrated with her not giving me what I want out of our relationship.

She also mentioned the fact that I may have been jealous about the OM and that is why I am doing the things I am doing. I do feel jealousy towards her EA. She was spending time with him that she did not give me during years of our marriage. She woke up at odd hours so she would be on the same time schedule as him. She called him during her lunch hour when she very rarely called me at that time. She wrote things to him that she never ever wrote to me. She cared about his family when I felt she didn't care about ours. I felt very betrayed by her actions. How could she give this OM the things my family and I wanted so badly from her? How could she find the time to talk to him when she couldn't find the time to talk to me? Even now I feel she hasn't disconnected from him. I still hear talk about him if it is only to say I felt this way towards him. When I don't feel that way towards him but my feelings are toward her and how she perceives me.

Monday I began mowing the yard but ran out of gas and didn't get it done. Yesterday I was really tired from the long day at work. I wanted to finish the grass but couldn't find the energy to do it. That was until I was sitting outside and my W came out the back door and looked over in the area of the unfinished grass. She didn't say a thing. I immediately reacted to the fact by her looking over there I had unfinished business. I got up and went and finished the grass until it got dark last night. I told her this morning but she said she was only looking at the bird feeder and wasn't thinking about the grass. She was already upset about the freezer so I felt I couldn't let her down by not finishing the yard work. This is only an example of how I react towards her feelings towards me. In my mind I can do nothing right now that will regain the affection and admiration I so much want from her. I constantly tell myself what more can I do for her that will bring back those feelings I desire.

Her openess with me in the last few days is leaving me with more questions than answers. Some of what she is telling me does not make sense. She told me this morning that when we have sex she is just looking for it to get over with. But yet many times she is the one initiating the sex. She has told me that it is not my technique. What ever that means. I have told her that I didn't feel our lovemaking was that and it was just sex. I do not feel love in our sex. She doesn't fulfill my needs when we have sex. That makes me feel like I am not fulfilling her needs and that is why our sex feels like sex and not love. Now I feel like I can't have sex with her again. It is not an act of love for her when I feel totally opposite of how she feels. I want love in our sex.

A book she is reading has led her to believe she has a selfish heart. This may very well be true and I see some of this also. She feels she needs immediate counseling to get over these feelings. I don't disagree with that. I believe I need IC also to help me understand why I feel so obsessed in making her feel good. I know that right now I feel good when she does. But that doesn't help heal me. Like I said I feel dependent on her and her feelings towards me. She tells me now that she loves me but I don't feel that love. Words alone are not getting it done for me. Her actions are speaking volumes about our relationship right now. I know I make mistakes we all do but I feel she compounds my mistakes by thinking about all the past mistakes and not seeing the good things I have done for her and my family. I also realize I have caused some of her feelings with my many AO's. I am breaking that pattern more and more. I see others around me that get angry and it makes me want to get away from them. In the past I put up with that anger from someone and didn't think twice about it. But when she gets angry with me I put up with it and try to do anything humanly possible to alleviate her anger towards me. But it only seems to make matters worse for it. So yes I do think she has a selfish heart and have believed that for a long time with her actions towards me and the kids. I really understood it when I would be the manager for my kids during little league and she would never come to the games. I would say to myself how selfish can you be to not come watch your kids play ball. I so felt bad for my kids that their mother would not come watch them. But when she had activities that included children that were not her own she was more than willing to go above and beyond to meet these childrens needs. I would also help her in these activities because I wanted to spend time with her and give her help she needed. That shouldn't have been my job. Parents of these children should have stepped up and done for their kids. This has led my own kids to see their mother in a different light. My kids, parents and friends have all asked me why my W gives the attention to her students that she doesn't give to her children. If outsiders of our family see this then there is a problem. I believe this is her selfish way of showing other people that she is truly a caring person. See what I do for these kids even though they aren't mine kind of attitude. Now our kids are grown and I feel they missed out on having a mother that doted on them the way they needed. Where was the nurturing she gave others but neglected on her own children. My children should not have to feel the way they do about her. They should not feel she is showing more attention to other children then they get.

I have more but I am going to work.

How does it feel to have nothing hide, act radically honest, hold yourself to your code of transparency whether she requires it or not? Do you feel any different? Do you admire, appreciate, feel good about yourself, from your own choice? Freer, more connected, maybe more connectable?

Did you assume I was asking if you resented it? Had a problem with your choice? I'm wondering how to frame what I'm asking more clearly..."How do you experience transparency?" Help me out with any thoughts as to refining what I'm asking...doesn't sound so broadly wide open in my head...I can now see where it is...appreciate the help.


The DJ was you thinking initially when you offered your password, that she refused it because she didn't want to reciprocate.. That was the DJ. I point it out because it affects you inside and so it affects your half of the marriage. I'm going for showing you your power, where you don't see it, experience or exercise it...not to blame or daunt you...to free you from what isn't really your limit...so you can better see your real limits.

I don't agree, either, with her having her cell bill forwarded to her work address. That's not transparent and it's devious. You may worry about being seen as controlling because you are exposed to her attempts to control...this is one of them. She has no real control over you...nor you, her. These are acts of self-deception...to stop you from; make you start...I hope you see it clearly so you won't do the same to yourself.

You are guarding and enforcing your marital boundaries. She is not acting transparently in regards to her choice of whom she calls. Please know this...not about you--totally about her.

I'm reinforcing what you wrote. You're not crazy and I'm delighted you are not buying into her self-deception. Great job.

It is respectful to ask for what you want...as long as you let the outcome go. Same for her to ask...I'm glad you shared with her what you would like in case of contact...discuss what you would like, too, in case she makes the contact...both ways, bases covered...doesn't mean it will or won't be...doesn't mean you won't or will be seen as controlling--means YOU will know you acting from respect. And you did...and your feelings follow...and they are different. You actually experience yourself differently.


Tell me what boundary she crossed...you said up to a point...that's subjective...make it protective and solid...if you're okay with wifely rants to female best friends...then what crosses the line? Was it not letting you in on her stuff, the substance of the rant? Was it the extent, depth, breadth of what she shared? She can rant up to the point she degrades you to others? Or maybe she can't really rant...maybe she can share without LBs about you to others?

Boundary crossings are unacceptable by definition...check yourself first to see clearly what boundary was crossed, see if it is around you or just around her, or widely around her and others...see if the line moves...depending on vocabulary...or intent to deceive (lies by omission to you, to your marriage)...figure out which boundary your gut is telling you was really crossed...then do your predetermined progressive enforcements.

See, I think you crossed a marital boundary when you sat and listened to her GF for a couple of hours when she was sharing about her H, her marriage...her intimate stuff. I perceived MrsE admired you for doing it...saw no threat...just a way to understand HER more and to change how others view you.

Self-image not self. As if you could experience how she talked about you to others...and you cannot. She cut you out of that and can now, only describe...like an A, in a way. In another way, a working out what is really hers in order to share...I've experienced it both ways...clarifying what is bothering me, then sharing with DH.

I very much appreciate you seeing the little by little...not discounting or overlooking...my prayer for your marriage is awareness and ownership...because that IS intimacy...and now, you are giving gifts to each other of honesty, what was withheld, distorted, done...freeing yourselves. Isn't a cure or a cure-all.

Remains to me a miracle. For all that we go through, build our grime into mountains and long distances...in a breath, we can be close again, in a moment, such grace in God's design...I can see how no distance is too great for him...he made distance an illusion in relationships...it's a three-inch tilt of the head and life is totally different.

What's your next boundary enforcement for her contacting OM again in anyway, and as of when...the date of last contact through DD's MySpace?

LA

I understood after stating what happened, you saw where you have an issue of MrsE not staying present...where you believe she compounds, escalates through remembering other mistakes you made from the past...and it feels like an accumulated weight, not in proportion from what mistake you just made...is that correct?

I want to stop and go to something prior to that...you didn't state with fullness what you actually did and what the natural and logical consequences of your mistake. State your stuff...state what you did, why you did it, what your stuff was like as a result of what you did, and why and how you won't do it again.

I ask for this because this is a boundary enforcement you take...if you don't enforce them around you, you won't enforce them when others cross them...very important. Not about blame or wrong...about ownership...and making different choices than before...your mind went straight to your perception of what MrsE was choosing...not seeing your own. I want you to see your own first, then hear hers...balance in focus, not tipped over.

MrsE can feel tired, choose not to discuss and feel upset all at the same time. All valid and hers. Not dodging you...possibly not safe to discuss with you. What did you really want last night? Did you want her to not feel, think, believe, say, act the way she was?

Were you wanting to understand her stuff (discuss) or be understood?

Next, another great observation...you have obsessive thoughts and recognize them as such.

She can feel smothered...doesn't mean your acts of love are doing it. Feeling engulfed, taken over...consumed...can come from feeling as if she's the sole focus of your focus...your living, breathing reflection (which negates self...seems like you're consuming her self...you're not).

Your obsessive thoughts are living through her...making her a living, breathing reflection of you...feeling she loves means you are lovable; acceptance means you're acceptable; if she hopes then there is hope; if she is angry, then you made her...

Again, we feel taken over, consumed, engulfed (our fear of intimacy) when we detect the weight of intimacy to be heavy, pricey, a trap...in part because we actively are believing our selves can be consumed by someone else...which it can't...most likely because we are seeing OURSELVES through them...using our partners as our mirrors, too...can you see where focus can be experienced as a weapon?

Check to see if you're negating your self...abandoning yourself...kicking your fear into the stratosphere by doing this...and experiencing it as if she's abandoning you, shoving you away and justifying it because of your actions. Stand still.

Breathe.

Stop the pursuer/distancer dance...it's not real and it harms both ways, all the time. Stand still.

Think about your own expectations...which are your motivation, your experience...and see if you also pile on your past mistakes when you realize one you just made...what you hear in your head...what voice is speaking and what its saying...and how much you actually hear coming from MrsE that was already said in you...

"I can afford this screw up" "This is the last thing we need right now" (Fill in the blanks here..I'm sharing what was in my head, 'k?)

Also, if you breath and clear your head, see the events which led to the unplugging again objectively...see if you can detect any resentment, or a broken promise to yourself, or something that's a flash just before or after the actual mistake.

Not for blame...again, to know yourself better...be safe for you to know and understand.


I can't tell what is real or not in the above quote...please separate your assumptions from actions...fantasy from reality...and do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Seriously...that's the choice it comes down to...you may love DJs MORE than loving another human. They can make you feel safer, stronger, smarter, superior...and maybe human relationships don't provide that opportunity for you.

I'm not being mean here...I'm being realistic. Think about what your heart's desire really is...because the DJs will continue the entitlement, the AOs, the A's and the self-betrayal, too. They are the choice of fantasy, which has kicked you in your teeth so many times...it's your focus suck and an anti-love vacuum I didn't think you wanted to be in anymore. I hurt seeing you put yourself in there...please stop or accept you truly would rather be right than loved.


Feelings follow actions...where you put your focus, so there is where your experience will be...living through others riles our emotions...we live with others, experience others, not through them. Hold still...know you are real, whole, complete...see your partner as separate...she is not half of you...sure can feel like it...get your feelings as signals...signalling you about what you are giving to get in your marriage, instead of giving from love...and see where you're afraid to receive, where you may block, (through assumptions, expectations)...and where you perceive yourself as lacking, unworthy, valueless.

Add "right now" to sentences in your thoughts, statements you make...bring yourself current, in the present and then see how your feelings result...add it to your above statements.


Ask her about her choices...not yourself. You can't answer.

She hasn't disconnected from him...she has recently been in contact...takes time to disconnect from fantasy. What does she call OM? What do you call OM when you discuss the A?

Would you do me a favor when you have time and rewrite the above quote into just "I" statements...eliminate the "she" stuff...and own it. Share it with her.


right now.

First see what is and what isn't. She's more open. She's also deceiving you (cell bill). Know what is and what isn't. Not the why's right now...learn to separate actions from stuff; practice this.

When you get your signals, the emotions drop. You don't have to reach deep within you...up your awareness...feel an emotion and trace it to the belief in you it's coming from...then your emotion will drop. Practice and you'll understand your self, accept and love yourself well. Because this is an act of love and respect for self.

You can stop obsessing on her...that's a choice you are repeatedly making from fear. You are made of love, MrE. When you hear a "you" or a "MrsE" in your thoughts, stop right there. Breathe. Pray. And you'll be right back in your power, focus on you...apologize to self for running away, 'k?

You identified well the steps of your downward spiral...where it begins, how it continues...remove anyone one part and the spiral stops.

Work together on SF...I strongly recommend non-verbal exercise (no sexual touch) at least twice a week (takes 20 minutes)...and you can't talk!



Remember SF is a symbol, an EN...subject to interpretation even if part of it is physical fact. You resolving your stuff, knowing and getting your signals, may clear up a lot for you...as you pry your focus away from knowing you through her. Be open for upward spirals, too, 'k?

Why would God make someone with a selfish heart? Wouldn't that override his respect of freewill, our choice? How well has judging helped your relationships and your life, when understanding would have sufficed?

We don't get over feelings...we own that we have them, get what they are signalling. They help us see our own beliefs (they are like our flashlight...can't find them in the dark) and examine what we are really living from. If we choose to live reacting to them, they connect us and disconnect us from one another, whipping us to and fro, reactively. If we choose to identify, trace and understand them for the information they are delivering...then we know ourselves better and connect, period.

Are you feeling great from breaking your lifelong AO patterns? You've had some major opportunities to react...and you haven't...not in the same pattern. Are you rejoicing in your freedom from what held you down, had you marked, maybe with a cruel heart, made that way? You weren't...you aren't...you're choosing differently.

I believe a big part of LBs is the tit for tat side of giving to get (ENs)...do you relate to that in your last post? What if that was the fuel for a lot of your permissions to AO? What if your stuck-focus on her is an LB to yourself, upping the level of intensity of conflict and may up your urge to react...would you practice calling your focus home if it was adding to your urge?

I perceive you having a lot of resentment built up within you...when you choose to focus, zero in, on what MrsE does that hurts the most and repeatedly (her abandonment of family, putting others ahead of you and the kids, her bringing past mistakes to bear today) can you hear yourself doing these same things, too?

Again, similar challenges...both of you mirror the other...best possible partners in helping each other, side by side, to meet those challenges in yourselves, for change...realigning...understanding really well why you are mates...with God's blessing...

be good to one another. Be honest. Don't self-deceive and say "I'm focusing on me and the way she treats me"...for she does the same...her focus is glued to you, MrE...as yours is to hers. You share so much in common...what you permitted yourself, so you have permitted her...there's a lot of forgiveness for the past to be done...inside and out...you can do it together...pry her fingers of focus off your arm and yours off hers...so you can really see each other again.

"That shouldn't have been my job." Where does that statement come from within you? Same place "It's summer vacation and it shouldn't be raining."? Seriously...can you hear you own pain when it speaks? Where it resonates and what it means to you?

Be safe to work this out...how about those VERBAL communication exercises twice a week...1/2 hour twice a week only...last time I'm offering...where you can share and be shared with safely...and play the rest of the time.

LA

I told EWS this triggers that thinking and that I wanted to go to counseling because it is a learned behavior I want to break. EWS
please listen to what I say, I am saying what I think and feel. I have said to him, about my book, it indicates I have a selfish heart and I want to CHANGE that. I do not want to Blame EWS when mistakes are made, I want to see it as human error. How true Loving, I judge, but I judge myself much harder. I ALWAYS think "God, please don't let me make a mistake it would be the END of MY WORLD", I think that's a terrible load for me to carry and I want to put it down, but don't know how!



I had forgot to tell EWS I had taken Tylenol PM an hour before. I was asleep when he woke me to discuss this, I could barely wake up, but it ended up KEEPING me awake after I did wake up I do care about how EWS feels. Neither of us got any sleep!



I don't remember saying that I feel he's smothering me, but I am concerned that he felt so emotionally sad he could not go to work. This is happening too much. He can not eat, sleep, concentrate. On Monday I did not get angry with him. I had already yelled at my brother about the freezer being defrosted. The door is funny and to secure it, it must be locked. So I had my AO while EWS was still at work. When he got home I sat him down and just asked "What were you thinking about when you accidentally unplugged it?" He began an AO with "I have to much to do, my wife is having an affair"- at that point I stopped him. Ask him to just calm down and focus on what was really happening at that moment. He said he was trying to do too much at one time. I asked him to make our son mow the yard. When we did go outside and he felt I looked at the yard and wanted him to mow it, I had ACTUALLY walked over to the bird feeder, EWS joined me at the feeder and we discussed how a possum was eating all the seeds. I am not sure how he came to the conclusion I wanted the yard mowed by HIM??



I did attend some games especially when the children were little, but I also used this time as "my time" we did have 4 children, 3 within a year apart. TWINS with a son who is only 16 months older than they are. I need a little quite time. When the children got older, they joined a competitive baseball etc. The parents sat in the stands and said bad things about EWS, that made me want to beat them all up. EWS let every child play even if they were lousy. The parents wanted only the good kids to play so we would win. I hated listening to their ugly comments!



I am sorry about this and will change it back. I just couldn't remember when the last contact with OM was and did not want another episode like my Saturday night a few weeks ago. I know that another AO of that type with EWS and I will not be able to repair ever. I don't mean our relationship, I mean that part of your soul that stores fear.

I tried to explain that it is an inner mind set and I may need a sex therapist to help me with this. I have looked for one and found a great clinic within a 3 hour drive.



The book is titled "Emotionally Destructive Relationships" and there are two chapters about the 5 types of hearts. I identified mine as a selfish heart.

more later

I've been busy at work lately.


I want her to be herself without the AO's, DJ's, and SD's. They come out way to often.


Yes I feel this way.


The reason I unplugged it in the first place was to use the outlet occupied by a plug strip. I unplugged the entire plug strip not really thinking the freezer was plugged into this plug strip. The reason I needed the outlet was for a light so I could fix the car in the driveway. After fixing the car I didn't have a need to plug the plug strip back in. I did not realize at the time the freezer was off. If I had remembered I originally plugged the freezer into this strip then I would have plugged it back in. I won't forget next time. But better yet I have a better fix so this won't happen again by me or anyone else. I will just add an outlet for the freezer.


No LA I would rather be married. I don't feel safer, stronger, smarter or superior to any other human on this planet. Not all human relationships provide a lot of things for me LA. Yes I would judge a person within a few sentences of meeting them. I did this recently with a person on the job site. He was just not a person I felt connected to on a personal level. He went into the professional relationship only category. He tries to get personal with me but it irritates me. His topics are of a nature that are off-color so to speak. This is where I believe you are telling me to state my boundaries. I should tell him I am not interested in conversation with him other than work related topics. Instead I was unattentive to his conversations and would not speak back to him. He in turn then didn't acknowledge me personally or professionally. So I had to reinitiate contact with him so we could work together. But now he wants to resume personal conversations that I do not approve of or believe in talking about. Now I just tune him out and nod occassionally.


She hasn't disconnected from him. She recently posted here about a sexual encounter with him when she was in high school. To explain her sexual desires. It is rather upsetting to me. Its a story I had heard along time ago. She has a pet name for him although she doesn't call him that when we discuss him or she brings him up. I call him by his name when I discuss him. Although I did call him many other names during the A.


I have really slowed down on the "you did this". When it does rear its ugly head I am acknowledging it. Right after that I do pray LA. And I also ask God for his forgiveness for me doubting his decision for this M. I have had enough affirmation from God about staying married I shouldn't doubt it. Persistent faith.


Yes I am choosing differently in reactions. And yes I like the freedom from the anger. It boiled most days. Now I hardly feel anger. Like I said previously my kids are noticing the improvement in my reactions. They are coming to me with more of their problems. They feel more able to open up to me without me going ballistic on them. I can also see some of it rubbing off on my W. Her AO's are less and less frequent as time passes on. I hope that is making her feel safer around me.


Not near the resentment I had built up when our current conflict started. There are still issues not being resolved. At the same time though I understand I am not being of help to resolve some of these issues. As time goes on and I get more comfortable with our relationship then I am sure we will resolve these issues mutually. What resentment I still have left is not bringing about the AO's. So in some ways I am dealing with it by addressing a less sensitive issue resolution. Small steps work also. Patience.


Resentment. Yeah I hear the pain and feel it. I should look at the situation differently. In a different perspective. So that it would be a positive situation instead of a negative.


Is this something I can find on the website here? Does the offer still stand?

You can trigger to past mistakes while discussing choices in the present and not bring them up. It's a choice, MrsE. You can say, "I'm doing it right now, thinking up all the past stuff. Feels like a signal to me. I'm trying to figure it out." That's sharing, not fighting...revealing. Then do the work. Figure out what is underneath the pattern...know your stuff. Then share it as your own.


You choose to no longer have a selfish heart, is that correct? I believe selfishness is acting out from fear...living from it. You can choose to act from love, instead. Choice.

Would you please consider eliminating your belief that blame is real? Responsibility is real...blame isn't. Like offense, it has to be taken--cannot be given or placed. It's another act from fear, not love. Judging yourself harder means you will judge others...remove that permission. That's like saying "It's okay for me to cut others because I cut myself more." Makes no sense. It's not okay, period.

You put it down because it isn't real or really you. You are not a mistake. You make choices. Some have outcomes you enjoy and others you abhor. You look to what you chose from...fear or love...and you check your intent. You get to know when you are attempting to hurt someone else--usually you'll find yourself doing this when you are acting out your own hurt. Your stuff. Which is why I press you so often to own what you do, why you do it. Ownership is responsibility--it's how we shift from living in blame and fear.

It's the antidote.

You fear making mistakes...to you, it's as if they will end your world. So you experience EWS's mistakes as ending your world, as well. Thank you very much for sharing your prayer. I really relate.

MC/IC is where I worked that one out. Took the MC pointing it out to me...the all or nothing...he pointed at the chair I was sitting in and then at the wall across the room. He said "Where you are sitting is a marker. When you make a mistake, you fall all the way to the wall, which feels like annihilation to you. As you grow and change your beliefs, you will still fall...and you won't fall to the wall...maybe three quarters of the way. Then half, then inches from where you are sitting. It's a process. The key is to stay aware of how far you fall. Because you're not really falling at all."

I worked on my all or nothing perpsective. I put mistakes in one big lump...the big ones with the smaller ones. Again, makes sense to go black and white...all or nothing...mistake or not a mistake. As long as I did this, I'd fall to the wall every time.

Sorting out mistakes took me upping my awareness, not my judgment. Two very different things. Get to know them as separate...for judgment has been hiding within awareness in you...so it was in me. Did I forget to buy milk on the way home? Small mistake. Won't end my world. Even if I see disappointment in my DH's eyes. What I did once I discovered my mistake was what mattered. Now that held true for the bigger mistakes, also.

Awareness to see where I would make one mistake bigger...add onto it and compound it. Say DH looked in the fridge and said, "I thought you were going to get milk on the way home." "Oh, was I supposed to do that? I thought you were." Makes my mistake bigger, into a lie...didn't tell him at the door of my mistake. Then waited until it was discovered and tried to make it NOT my mistake. "Well you forgot to pick up the dry cleaning last week and I didn't have any shirts for work. That's much worse than being out of milk."

Makes the mistake into lies and blame...full on tit for tat. One arises out of the other...dodging blame. The small mistake goes into the big lump and then it's all one...and now my DH is experiencing something bigger than no milk. I'm attempting through deception to make him feel as badly as I do.

I had to take offense, DJ his statement...make it about me, us, negligence and then into not feeling loved. All the way to the wall.

My three inches was calling him on the phone and saying, "I didn't pick up milk like I promised to do. I'm sorry. I can go out now and get it. Dinner will be late by 15 minutes. What do you think?"

Honesty is the key to our team...owning and letting go...builds our team...I do my half. I heal and help myself...so I don't need those other habits of shifting, dodging, demanding, distorting...so I don't do them.

Big mistakes. Well, mine were huge ones...and I treated them stridently in the same way as above--why I know dodging, shifting, shaming so well. What comes to mind, though, is something my DH did. Of course.



Years ago, he wanted to buy a car to save on gas. Throughout our marriage, we had been mocked by the car gods (what we called our ill luck with vehicles). Rash decisions from stress and fear of being taken again were what was underneath this mistake pattern. I wasn't enthusiastic about getting another car and I told him. He said he was going to and did I want to go with him to look at one. In the old way, I agreed when I didn't really agree and went with him. He wanted to use our savings to buy the $1400 honda and I said, "No, but do what you're going to do anyway." Very snotty, gotta tell you.

One week later, it over heated and blew a gasket. Had to be rebuilt. He came to me and told me...and expected my routine verbal abuse, all the blaming...and I didn't. Get this...I was looking in his beautiful eyes and I saw my own shame, humiliation in there...and I felt empathy. Here we go again. Will we ever learn? Yeah, those thoughts were there...but his pain overrode them. And I said, "I'm so sorry this happened."

To this day he remembers his expectation, going into the torture chamber and it not being one. Walking up to his enemy, his humiliator, and instead, finding his ally. His other half.

I still feel shame for the years of shaming...that this one spot was where my light fell...and grateful to myself for choosing to act differently.

And admire my DH very much for walking up to his enemy and owning what he'd done, what the results were...when he'd already decided to get a loan in his name only and fix the car, paying for it out of his allowance. Maybe because he owned he could inform...he was doing his amends. I dunno. The mistake was an opportunity for us to reconnect, to remember ourselves as partners, even as the fear of no money was shrieking at me inside...no safety...falling all the way to the wall.



In the Verbally Abusive Marriage, forgetting is another way to abuse. Just wanted to share that--not saying you were. What comes to mind is not informing our partners of what we're doing, why we're doing it...okay to say, "I want to shut myself away tonight. This is really important to me, too. Can we discuss this tomorrow night at 7pm? Would you like a Tylenol PM, too?"

Sleep is important for clarity, awareness and change.

Informing is sharing...no spurning there...no rejection...no CA. Doesn't mean his feelings will change...sharing changes your own. Acknowledges and validates this is important, he is important to you. Sometimes, when there is deep hurt and no words, holding one another, even if you don't feel like it, changes everything.

Reminds you of where home really is. Then your feelings follow. And you can sleep.


What did you do as amends for your AO? Do you enjoy treating grown men as children? Think about it...not a bash...a real question...do you get a payoff from doing this? Same for thinking for them...because that's what EWS did...DJ'd you...and you didn't like it. What's great is you both sharing your DJs aloud...showing them to each other...now see what you're doing.

You didn't stop him from anything. He stopped. He stopped himself. I harp on this because this is where your thinking harms your marriage...and you stick with it...framing your thoughts in this way--choose differently.

You know your DH is suffering a lot right now...you acknowledged you don't see him eating, sleeping; you see his sadness, his stress, know his concerns...and I hear you say "but" though you didn't...he's allowing it to affect his work, which reduces what, income? Because if he doesn't go to work he doesn't get paid...and yet, your main issue has been even when he works his tushie off he doesn't get paid? What is at the bottom of this "but" I'm hearing? If I were EWS, I would hear "No matter what you do, you're worthless, incompetent, useless and a burden I carry." Ouch. Big ouch.

You quoted EWS:

And you said: I did attend some games...

I stopped there because you stepped over and went straight for a fight...you refuted his perception. He DJ'd you and he shared honestly...hear the DJ, the assumption, and then hear the honest sharing...acknowledge and validate. Wasn't your experience. Neither one of yours is the truth...remains your truth and his truth. He resents from the past, as well. He brings it into the present, also. You both do this. Stop refuting.


First you say you didn't attend all the games (hear the all or nothing you both have?) because you needed "me" time...and then this comes out, as well. Not one reason or the other...many reasons...share them all...so you can know...not refute. Acknowledge, "I understand why you saw it that way--that you felt ignored, didn't meet your FC EN. I wish I'd known then what I do now. I would have chosen differently."

You quoting EWS:

You responded:
Did you change it back? Can you see where your apology for doing so didn't own all of what you did and why you did it? "I wanted to control EWS and did so by changing my cell bill delivery address. I acted from my own fear and it was manipulative, dishonest and attacked my marriage. I want to live in the truth, act from honesty, which is acting from love. I caught myself controlling again and that's not who I really am. I know EWS felt betrayed again, lied to, and manipulated. I understand why."

True amends...you're getting part, not all. You injured yourself through this choice, as well...we cannot lie to others without lying to ourselves first. I think what injures your soul the most is your self-deception. Sure rent mine apart...acting from fear does that.

We cannot repair a single part of our wounded selves by manipulating others. They are not the cause, control or cure for us. Not in God's design.

My constant prayer for you, MrsE, is to experience living in radical honesty, sharing all of who you are with EWS.

LA

Would you consider when you want her to do/not do, this is also a desire for yourself, for you to not DJ, AO, SD?

I wrote to you:
And you replied:
Are you doing better now with the DJs? In your older post that MrsE was quoting, there were many...the spurning, the all or nothing, the bringing into the present past resentments. That's what I saw. The same things you see coming from MrsE...parallels. When I say "Check yourself first" do you hear "Blame yourself first?" Can you see in the past your EN for FC for her coming to more ballgames? Can you hear your all or nothing by saying "never"? Then your reach for judgment, defining her selfish?

Ownership is how we free ourselves from blame. What I'm saying to MrsE is what I'm saying for you, too...if you want to not experience the dodging, shifting, refuting, discounting, defining, failing, making mistakes and falling to the wall...then you stop first. That's not who you are, either. Not even close. "I hurt every game you didn't attend. I assumed it we were a burden, overwhelming, and you were rejecting me specifically." Own your stuff...hear it that way...and heal yourself by sharing, 'k?


Here's where I fear sounding crazy and extreme. I'm going to share with you, anyway, 'k? You assumed the outlet didn't need to be plugged back in. An assumption was at the bottom...and I'm going to take that as a signal to you. The majority of your feelings are coming from assumptions...instead of facts. Are you willing to erase what you've assumed throughout your marriage and get to know what is right now, and who you and MrsE are right now, new again?

If you don't want another mistake like the freezer, assume what is now is there for a reason--even if you don't see it right away--choose to pause and consider what is right now new again...will cover a myriad of possible mistakes. Not a matter of forgetting...not remembering. A matter of assumption.

Remember the quote, "An unexamined life is not worth living"? Awareness, not judgment, of how we operate is within that belief. We can experience life through assumptions and not live...or live harshly. Or we can examine, accept, understand and live fully. Sorting out reasonable assumptions (sun will rise, car will mostly start, traffic is bad at 5pm) from unreasonable (not real) ones...MrsE loves yellow roses, she is always disappointed in me, she's my enemy, out to harm me...discerning, not judging is a skill worth building.

I wrote:
And you replied:
The should tells me you didn't...you didn't say from respect, "I don't like hearing intimate" yes, use the word "stuff from you. I'm interested in your opinion on this and that. I want to know your thoughts." This and that would be the work-related stuff.

Doesn't mean he won't continue speaking as he was...second enforcement means higher honesty from you..."I am tuning you out now because you're choosing to continue to talk as if I didn't say what I did. I will continue to not respond to you and that makes our business relationship in jeopardy. You might be addressing something I need to know and I won't hear it."

Owns your choice and his...doesn't judge. Stop nodding. That's you lying to yourself and to him. This is classic CA behavior...goes way back. What you don't hear can't hurt you. I used to do this with the tv when I was little. If I can't hear my mother asking me to do something, then I don't have to stop watching.



What you do to others, you will do to MrsE, your children, and yourself. You'll tune yourself out. You're too precious to do that to...so is your wife and family, 'k?

Third boundary enforcement is to walk away...even at work...and state what you're doing, why you're doing it and when you will return.

I posted:
You responded:
No more pet names or real names. Either call him by his last name only (shows he's not part of your family), or POJA with MrsE a derogatory name...seriously...preferably a noun, an object. Not real. Not in your life. Not a real person in your marriage.

Me:
You:
Great choice on slowing down and praying. A new pattern you're establishing...stick with it. See the wonder of your pairing...seek God's brilliance...because it's there. Both of you have issues from long before you met...and your path to healing, understanding is through this marriage. You didn't choose wrong...aren't wrong for each other. You are both seeking the other to heal you...and you're working it out together. You're a team. Even when it doesn't feel close to it. You still are. Your prayers have already been answered.


What do you mean there are still issues not being resolved...do you mean there are issues you are not addressing in yourself? When we aren't functioning as a team, we remain responsible for our half...comfortable or not. One sounds like your resentment...have you made the commitment to yourself and God to not do that which you will resent, so you don't create new resentment in yourself?

I hear you saying you are controlling and manipulating your marriage by addressing a less sensitive issue...in yourself, you can address them all...and addressing them is understanding what the issue is in you, what it hits, why it hits it and if there is a DJ or four in there affecting you...making it your issue, not a less or more issue. What if all issues were sensitive? What if they all matter...all being lumped into one pot and stirred?

My question to you:
Your answer:
I read your "shoulds" and I shudder. What a trigger in me. I asked you can you hear your own pain when it speaks, tell me what it says...and where it is coming from inside you...and I get a "should" in there. I'm asking for what is and hearing you saying what should be. When you hear MrsE saying you aren't enough, that you're inadequate and wrong...what if that filter is from your hands, you installed it, and live from it? What if you're saying that inside yourself with your shoulds? Would that block you from saying what you are hearing right now? What you're experiencing right now and tracing its source in you?

Me:
You:
Wow, I got rather prissy, I think. LOL. No, I didn't find communication exercises in Harley's books...however, the whole POJA is one, I think. I was not able to POJA until I participated in other exercises.

In Gottman's "Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" there is this one: You schedule a half-hour to do this exercise...with no distractions...no music, tv, kids, phones, etc. The structure is one of you is the speaker and the other the listener for the exercise. The speaker talks for 20 minutes straight and the listener cannot say a word. The listener is also the timer. At the end of 20 minutes, the listener says "Time" and then speaks for five minutes handing back what the speaker said in the "I heard you say" format. Because of the five minute constraint, gotta summarize. Then the last five minutes are for the speaker to confirm or clarify parts of what he heard the listener say.

At the end, there is no more talking about the exercise for 24 hours. No refuting, addressing, clarifying...nothing. Two days later, the roles switch...speaker becomes the listener and vice versa. Same format. Same rules. You guys do it twice a week and stick to it, even when other stuff tries to take over your time slot.

It's really difficult to do...for both. Speaker isn't easy nor is listener. They are equally challenging. We did it regularly for a year and a half (that hour counts towards the UA time). We still ask one another to do it when we fall into old patterns. It's marvelous.

Another communication exercise is from "Fighting for Your Marriage" by Howard Markman. Rather than a time limit, this one allows both of you to be speaker and listener. Requires props, though.



You make up two sets of cards...one has a minus sign, one has a null sign, and the last one has a plus sign. These are your signs of intent. You hold them up when you speak. There's no interrupting, more conversational, and a little wide open, IMO, as to how long the speaker speaks and the listener listens. You switch back and forth, as we normally do in a conversation. Holding up the intent cards, though, changes the dynamic.

I can't tell you how wonderful it is when the person you're speaking with holds up the minus sign, says they have negative intent (intent to hurt, stop, make you feel) sign. Great to know!!! Same for you when you do. Makes those tiny assumptions (she's not trying to hurt me with that statement) rise to the top and be seen by ourselves...see how much they color our reactions, up our reactivity...deepens our intimacy and connection.

Seeing ourselves more clearly in the presence of our spouse is connective...when we share what we see. Makes them our safe place to fall...when really, we are owning ourselves...so we are already safe.

LA

LA not in this particular instance. I'm not expressing my feelings because I want that in myself. I already desire not to DJ, AO and make SD's. I don't want to be subjected to her anger nor does the rest of my household. The whole household is under the influence of MB. They are completely aware of AO's. So this time I am only the messenger of the flock.


No I didn't hear blame myself. I understand I made a black and white statement out of it. The word never was used. It was a fairly harsh statement about her. She attended plenty of other events of the children.


Really LA I am trying. I don't like living in the past. Some of these assumptions are hard to break after 25 years. I really am trying to get to know her all over again. I know I need to listen to her more carefully. That is probably my biggest hurdle.



First off what is CA behavior. Ok I nodded and showed disinterest. It doesn't take away from what I am doing at the moment. If I stop and talk to him then I waste my time. That's my flawed thinking at work. So now at present I told him I only have time for work related conversation and no more chit chat. Now he tries to talk to me more. I am back to nodding.


Tried that also. He followed me. Actually LA when I am at work I do tell people what I am doing and walk away. Even if it is someone I don't mind talking to. I am fairly intense at work. I have plans made the following day and want to stay with that. I need to meet time constraints and meeting those deadlines is important to me. So I will state my stuff at work and I get respected for that. Now if he worked for me then I would send him to work. But he is employed by someone else.


First off no I have not created any new resentments. I'm not controlling or manipulating the marriage. Rather I am living under the old assumptions of how my W will react. I can't see lumping all of the issues in one pot either. I know we have addressed all of our issues. Some of them though have not recieved a resolution. But some have gotten a resolution to them and we move on to the next.


I shuddered too when I wrote it. I left it up anyway. I don't like editing my posts. And yes it blocks what I am hearing and then saying. That is the problem with my listening LA. Aha you hit the nail on the head. I do that a lot now that you brought it up and the light bulb went off in my head. I'll check myself on that now more often. I do it when I read your posts even.

Two weeks ago I caught EWS chatting online and he was asking a woman to send another picture of her boobs and wanting her to drop her panties. I tell myself it's no big deal. It wasn't even someone he knows, but I just can't get over it. EWS is still getting up all hours of the night. When I come downstairs I can see the screen change from the stairs, I just can't see what's on it from there. I really feel awful. I cry a lot. I feel like I made the changes he asked for, now he's happy and going back to old ways, but I am changed. I now really don't trust men and have a terrible time with it. Last month we went to a marriage retreat with the Catholic Church. EWS had a vesetomy when I didn't want him to. The Church book that we read said that some couples have to go through reversal to make things right, but I don't think that would make me feel better either.

I really just want to be left alone, given time to heal all these old hurt feelings. I know that some say it takes up to 3 years to get over the affair. For an online affair, that I didn't even touch the guy?? When will I feel better?