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#2116038 08/26/08 09:59 AM
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This is first and foremost a MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE.

The goal of the owners of this site is to provide a forum where married couples, or soon to be married couples, can discuss and learn the basic principles that can turn a so-so marriage or even a terribly damaged marriage into a loving caring sanctuary for both spouses.

This site does not provide basic concepts for child-rearing, and the main focus of this site is not about children.

This site does provide a basic concepts for MARRIAGE BUILDING.

The Harley's strongly support a healthy loving marriage, in part because an intact functioning marriage IS the best environment in which to raise children.

Yes, there are other functional ways to raise children, but the other ways are NOT generally considered to be THE BEST environment parents can provide.

Let me repeat - an intact happy marriage is the most positive environment for raising children.

It is often stated by people who do not value marriage as much as the Harleys value marriage: "Children are resilient.".

Yes, some children are resilient, and some children are fragile.
Both types of children, the resilient and the fragile children, do best if raised in an intact 2 parent marriage.

If we claim to believe "children are resilient", does stating this belief provide adult parents an excuse to diminish the quality of life for their children in order to test their child's "resiliency".

If children are "resilient" - does this mean we can be a little careless? A lot careless? Does this mean it's "OK" if we fail to make our marriages work by our lack of knowledge, or our laziness, or our sinful selfishness?

And if the failure of a marriage hurts the no-so-resilient child, is the child at fault for not being "resilient enough" ?

Far too often adults will say "Children are resilient" just prior to making a child's life less safe and secure.

How thoughtless.

Let's assume small children are not so resilient. Let's assume small children will be harmed when a marriage fails and parents split apart. Let's assume small children need protection from adults who make bad decisions.

Here is how Dr Harley answered a member when she wrote to him and asked Dr. Harley about " OC contact".




Quote
Subj: Marriage Builders
Date: 2/18/2002 10:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: bharley@marriagebuilders.com (Willard F. Harley, Jr.)
To:

Debi,

The position I take on children born of an affair is that since
restoring a marriage requires an unfaithful spouse to never see or talk
to the lover, it's too risky for visitation. I've witnessed time and
time again where the visitation has triggered the affair all over
again. Besides, any contact with the former lover is usually a great
offense to the betrayed spouse.

My advice is to avoid contact with the child until he or she reaches
adulthood. Otherwise there is too much risk of your marriage coming to
a tragic end.

Best wish

There are many times in an adult's life we are faced with a 2 choice dilemma.

A 2 choice dilemma means-

NEITHER CHOICE is optimal.
This means one is left with the task of choosing the LEAST HARMFUL alternative.


Decide for yourself which is the least harmful choice - because every choice involves harm to someone.

If contact with OC/OW/OM is going to push your marriage closer to divorce - what's the value of that? And, who pays the price for that chaos and uncertainty?

Pep

Last edited by Pepperband; 08/26/08 10:28 AM.
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How many times have we heard this?

Quote
"The OW/OM did not take vows with the betrayed spouse. The OW/OM broke no vows."

.... and then in the next sentence the betrayed spouse is asked to consider the wishes and feelings of the OW/OM ....

WHAT?

.... and then, the betrayed spouse is informed they have a "moral obligation" to do (insert desire of OW/OM).

Excuse me? .... Did I hear you correctly? Did you say "moral obligation"?

What happend to the famous "I did did not take vows with you" excuse?

"I did not take vows with you" is a one way street - in case no one noticed.

The OW/OM often uses this line - and then cries "moral obligation". :crosseyedcrazy:

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In case anyone overlooked this detail:


Quote
My advice is to avoid contact with the child until he or she reaches
adulthood.


Adulthood.
Age of consent.
Co-mingling of all the siblings when there is no OW/OM contact posing a danger/threat to the marriage.

With any luck - a good 40 years or more of an enjoyable and fulfilling relationship.

Pep




Last edited by Pepperband; 08/26/08 10:19 AM.
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In the interest of MARRIAGE BUILDING



Quote
There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is never seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place.



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AMEN! This should be a sticky at the top of this forum. hug


Faith

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Originally Posted by faithful follower
AMEN! This should be a sticky at the top of this forum. hug

Let me tell you what comes next in the script where OW is telling the betrayed wife what she is "morally obligated" to do:

"The OC is innocent."

Yes - let's agree to absolve the all the innocent persons from the wrong decisions made by others.


The faithful spouses' children are innocent. Are they resilient enough to be thrown under the bus? The OP is the bus driver by the way.

Pep

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Amen Pepperband! I am going to share what you posted with my WH!



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DDay- 4/28/08
OC- NC
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Pepperband,
Since you are probably one of the best to give advice, I want ask you this.

H has 2 month old OC. He wants contact, says he can not abandon his child, and innocent baby.

Innocent baby? Yes, I agree.

My wish......NC with OW or OC.

If I insist this and give him an ultimatium, I believe my 18 year marriage with 2 COM will desolve.

What do I do? I don't think I want a divorce (but am not absolutely sure) If I give in and let OC be a part of our lives, I believe I will hold resentment always. I will be going against what I believe in. This is the hardest decision of my life.

I have moments where I think I can handle having OC in my life and possibly learning to love her. Then I have moments where I don't think I can bare the pain to have contact.

Moral dilema of a lifetime!


Me: BS-37
WH: 39
OC born 6/08
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Ladies..

My heart goes out to both of you.. Shocked and Hurtmom.

There is an OC in my life. There is so much more than any script anyone will give you and each situation is unique. Until you have lived it.. it is virtually impossible to comprehend.

I hope it is not inappropriate to give you an email to contact me for information regarding this situation.. Marriage Builders is the very best resource out there for your relationship..but finding others who can listen and understand really does help ten-fold.

cordially1@hotmail.com

Blessings,

Eibrab

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Eibrab,

I tried to e-mail you, but it was returned to me. I double checked the spelling twice. Could you have made a mistake, or do you have an alternate address that I could contact you with?

I would really like to talk to you. I need help from someone with experience. Thanks!


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Quote
He wants contact, says he can not abandon his child, and innocent baby.

and nor should he abandon his child. If you accept him back and forgive him, realize a child comes with the package. INSIST on NC with the OW. That will mean a lot of tough work.

Now, IF the OW is married and the child can be raised with a father (the OW's BH) I would suggest your husband NOT try and develop a relationship with the child at this time. BUT, if the OW is NOT married, I think your husband SHOULD be involved in that child's life.

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hurtmom, email me at killnme2004-mb@yahoo.com


Faith

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medc, until you have walked a mile in our shoes I ask that you not tell newly BW's with an OC that they must allow contact. It is her choice if she wants OC in her life and it is her H's choice to choose the marriage or not. It is not an easy choice either way but the marriage and the COM must come first.

Hurtmom, you are so early in this. DNA must be established before you agree (or not) to contact with OC. DNA must be established before you agree to marital assets going to this child as well.


Faith

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Quote
There is an OC in my life. There is so much more than any script anyone will give you and each situation is unique. Until you have lived it.. it is virtually impossible to comprehend
Yes, each situation is unique but you know as well as the rest of us that these OW all read from the very same script. Pep has given advice that needs to be taken to heart. OC or not, she knows what she is talking about.

Additionally if they do not get relationship advice, how will they save their marriages?


Faith

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Hurtmomof2,

Again know that you do not have to choose C w/ OC if you feel it is not in the best interest of you , your COM and your relationship.

I would highly suggest that you not consider your H's needs right now. You need to concentrate on you and what is best for you. You need to discover your power and what you can live with or not live with. Unfortunately this means that you respect your H's wishes and sometimes that means that you and your H will separate but you need to be strong enough and read to handle either decision.

Please take some time out just to reflect upon your needs and talk with a counselor ( individuall) to discover you again and what is important to you.

I wish you the very best on this unfortunate road that we must travel.


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OC- NC
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whatever you decide hurtmom, you MUST heal your marriage before considering C with OC. If your M is not strong it will not hold up under the stress of C. (((hurtmom)))


Faith

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Originally Posted by faithful follower
medc, until you have walked a mile in our shoes I ask that you not tell newly BW's with an OC that they must allow contact. It is her choice if she wants OC in her life and it is her H's choice to choose the marriage or not. It is not an easy choice either way but the marriage and the COM must come first.

I am not at all interested in what you think I should/can post. I am not telling anyone what they MUST do...I am offering my opinion. If you don't like it, i am okay with that. Your opinion has value here...as does mine.

And save the "walk a mile in my shoes" stuff. Just because I never experienced something does not mean I cannot offer a valuable/intelligent opinion(even if it differs from your advice).


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As you may know, medc, I highly respect you and the fact that you have custody of your son. I am simply asking you not to tell someone so fresh from this experience that they must allow the OC in their life.


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Originally Posted by medc
[quote=faithful follower]And save the "walk a mile in my shoes" stuff. Just because I never experienced something does not mean I cannot offer a valuable/intelligent opinion(even if it differs from your advice).

Respectfully, it DOES make a difference. You can have your opinion and offer advice, but the vantage point makes a huge difference.

I don't think anyone can really imagine the additional horrors this situation causes a spouse and a family, until they are involved in it.

The idea that everyone involved (especially BW and COM) should bow down, and bend over, for the rights of the innocent OC is cruel and naive. Every person's happiness and well-being has to be considered in the decision and the best plan has to be laid on that foundation. No one doubts the innocence of the OC.

Just my opinion, though. Based on experience.







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Quote
The idea that everyone involved (especially BW and COM) should bow down, and bend over, for the rights of the innocent OC is cruel and naive.

Did I say anything of the sort?

What I DID say is that IF (and this is certainly the BW's choice) she decides to take her FWH back that the OC might be part of that package. I say might, because as I said before, if the OC has a father at the ready (the OW's husband) I do not think he should attempt to have a relationship. If the child will be fatherless, I DO think that the FWH should have a relationship with that child and that it should be done in a manner that allows for NC.

I do not think that those that are involved in situations are always the best sources for information. Frequently they are less than objective and put their own ideas and feelings into a situation that really could benefit from a less subjective perspective.

This has NOTHING to do with the innocence of the OC...that is unquestioned. What it does have to do with are the responsibilities of a father to ALL of his children....not just the ones that the BW THINKS he should take care of. It is a fathers responsibility to make sure that ALL of his kids are cared for...and if that causes discomfort for a BW, while I understand her angst, it is a situation that will need to be dealt with.

Last edited by medc; 08/27/08 10:00 AM.
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