Yes, It majorly troubles me that this last converstion when I confronted him about the increase in cell phone bill was so recent. I have no intentions of taking the keylogger off the computer. I just wish there was a way to tap his cell phone. The digital recorder for his truck sounds like a good idea too. But I have no idea how they work. These things are for My own protection. My insurance.

I am soooo glad that you are thinking out loud, Jean. I need to hear what others have done. Not to do the same as someone else, but to give me information to reflect on.

I have not given thought to the boundaries I need to set. Actually I haven't thought much past just having the first conversation with him to let him know that I know about the A. Just getting started is the hardes thing for me right now.

From the phone bills and the computer, he is not active with the OW. For all I know he could have a pay-as-you-go type cell phone in the truck. I don't know. But from the information that I have, he is not active. Because of the email from her, I was able to find out her name, phone #, address. Even the names and phone numbers of her neighbors! I don't know if she is married. If she is, I would have no problem with calling him to expose what was. The problem I have is just getting started. Once I'm on a roll and I have my mind set, stand back!

"start forming a list of things for marital recovery and affair proofing precautions." Oh please....any help you could toss my way would be greatly appreciated! I need ideas and guidence for this part. Like I said I haven't thought much past getting that first conversation started.

I have given thought to a PlanB, although I did not know at the time that what I was planning was called "PlanB". He is away from home three consecutive nights. My plan, should he resist in the healing of our marriage, was to be home those nights that he was away and to stay with my parents or a friend while he was home. Or, like I had mentioned before, to move myself into the guest room and do my darnest to have as little contact with him as possible while he was home. I don't believe that would be too hard as I am very capable of keeping myself very busy. I'm sure it would get old after a while thogh. But that's as far as I thought on that too.

With the first conversation I plan to have with him is when I plan to find out if he will work with me to fix the problems that caused the A.

Ever since his parents died, his father being the last to pass about 3-4 years ago, he seems to have become someone I am not so sure I know. This is when all this stuff with him started. I don't know if that has had anything to do with his behaviors or not.

I did leave him once before, but only for a few days. It was about 18 years ago(that sounds sooo long ago!). He became very angry with me over a phone bill. It was the first really big fight we really had and he shut me out. Wouldn't talk to me, hold me, nothing. So I left. After a few days he called me and asked me to come home and we would talk about the phone bill. I believe that was the first and last time he ever yelled at me.

I agree, let's break it down into steps.

Step one:
Unsure, can you live with an "open mariage", if no, continue to step 2


Step two:
"My dear husband, it has come to my attention that you have recently had a physical affair. I have made a decision not to be in a marriage where infidelity is a coping skill. I would like to be married to you so I would like to know if you would like to have a marriage where we both forsake all others"

If he says no, he wants an open marriage and you need to leave.
If he says yes, continue to step three.

Step three:
1. Make sure contact with any OW's is over.
Voice recorders, key loggers, secret cell phones
2. Think about a post-nup, if either one of you has another affair, assests with be allocated accordingly (he who walks looses everything)
3. Filling out emotional needs questionaires. Find the gap in your marriage that is making it vulnerable to outside interlopers.
4. Spending Harley's recommended 15 hours a week together

I am afraid that his schedule is going to make recovery and trust building very difficult if not impossible. You are not together enough to do the work and you are apart so much that cheating is easy.

So, let's say he agrees to work on marriage. Then he refuses to do any work. Then you decide to go to planB.

IMO, planB is not to prove anything to him. It is you protecting your boundaries. If you don't want an open marriage than you need to leave a marriage that is open.

TST is a FWH who has a list of extraordinary precautions he implemented to protect his wife and marriage. It got bumped up yesterday so it should be easy to find.

Thanks, Jean. This reply has given me much to think about and has given me ideas. My next worry is how to answer him should he press for where I got my information. What to say to him if he still denies and says my information is wrong. I can't tell him how I found out the information. That needs to be kept a secret.

He will be home tonight. Leaves out again in the morning and will be home again tomorrow evening. He will leave out again Monday afternoon. I have printed the EN questionaires. I want to give him one to fill out. Not sure if I will give it to him before or after our 'talk', which I am planning to attempt for Saturday evening. Makes more sense to do so after the conversation I think. Never mind I re-read your post and giving the EN questionaire is part of Step Three.

I am going to do a little more reading on the boards and then I will start to construct my letter to him to use as a guide so that I don't forget everything I want to say. I will then give it to him, in hopes that he will refer to it as needed(w/o twisting my words). I will also look for TST's thread to add to my reading.

Thank you Jean for your kind understanding and encouragement. It is very much what I needed. If there is anything else you can think of, I will be appreciative of that information also.

Sincerely, Liz

Liz,

I bumped TST's list up which should make it easier for you to find. I would guess this list is pretty specific to his situation and marriage, you will probably add or subtract things that relate to your marriage.

Are you familiar with the term 'gaslighting'? That is when the WS tried to convince the BS that BS is crazy and imagining all this evidence. You seemed very sure of a PA when you first posted. Don't let him make you doubt yourself now.

(No matter what is story is about lastest OW, IMO, there has been enough infidelity in your marriage to warrent some serious changes) (not saying that there is an acceptable amount of infidelity, of course)

There is no way he will be able to make me doubt myself. I have the proof. I just don't know how to answer him if he presse this issue of my information. He just pulled in the driveway. Will post later.

Update:

Informed H that I know of his affair. He did make a feeble attempt to deny, but I asked him not to deny it as I had enough proof to know that it actually happened and I did not want to call him a liar. With that said, he confessed. We talked about the how's and why's. He did the best he could to explain. But for the most part he had too many 'I don't know's'. I explained to him that he had to do some soul searching to find the answers because they are there. 'I don't know' is just the answer we give when we don't want to confront our own truth. I aked him to find the 'answers' as it was very important to the welfare of our relationship. He agreed. As he has much alone time while driving, he should be able to figure it out. He has also agreed to the NC letter. Actually it will be an e-mail, not a letter. Same difference IMO. I will be there when he sends it. Contacting the OWH may be futile as they are seperated. This is something I will look into this coming week. We did a lot of talking and discussing and holding one another. He did push for me to give up how I found out, but told him if I did then I would give away my way of keeping track of him. I told him e-mail was not the only way for me to keep track of him. We left it at that.

We will have much more to discuss as the weeks follow. I have already printed up the EN questionaire, which I will give to him to take along while he is away this week. I will also fill mine out and we will sit and discuss them next weekend. He has agreed to this also. I explained that OW must have been able to touch a space within him that I was not able to. Or that he did not want me to enter. Hence the need for these questionaires to be filled out and discussed. With all my talking it seems I have Finally been able to get through to him the difference between a strong intimate emotional bond(which I feel has always been a weak spot for us) and just a decent relationship. He seems to be much more open to hearing me out than ever before. I can only hope! Thank you, Jean, for all your support when I was at a loss for ideas and direction

I will also talk with him later today about changing his cell phone # and changing or deleting the email account where she has been contacting him through.

I am so glad to hear your update!

I am glad he seems receptive to repair work. If I may make another suggestion... try to make sure the time you two have together is not all marital homework time. Try to have some fun, you both need to know that this marriage can be fun and fulfilling.

Don't be surprised if OW attempts to use the no contact letter as an excuse to contact (closure, sappy good-byes, blah blah blah).

Wishing you the best!!

This morning, the day after I told H that I knew about his A, I had the stranges reaction. I felt so sad. So much so that all I could do was cry. Before I said something to him, I could just pretend that it wasn't there, I guess. Now that A is out in the open and has be accknowledged, I must now face it head on. I really wasn't prepared for my own reaction.

Yesterday, towards the end of the day, H said something that I thought was a little odd. He said he was still 'in shock'. This was his answer when I asked him what he was thinking and feeling. Today when I asked him about that comment he said he was shocked about me finding out about the A. I asked him if he thought I was not smart enough to follow my instints? His answer was interesting and one that I have heard about the WS. He said he thought He was smart enough to keep it a secret! I told him he should know better. As I have always told our children, I may not find out in a timely mannor, But I Will Always find out about what you have done. And that the statement also applied to him!

I asked him this morning for the passwords to his email and cell phone accts. He said it would not be a problem for him to give them to me. When I got home from work he had not left them as I had hoped. Guess I should have been more specific. This is where it will get interesting. Since I have his email accts and their passwords(which he does not know that I have)I have been keeping close tabs on them. I checked them when I got home and his one acct was totally cleaned out. The 'folder' he had on the OW(which was empty)was deleted, her address was deleted out of his address contacts, and all the correspondence from an adult web site that he had been involved in were also deleted. Should be interesting to see what he will say when I so innocently ask if he deleted anything before giving me the accts and passwords. I just pray he tells me the truth. I don't want to say to much for fear of giving away how I really keep track of him(through a keylogger on our computer) as I have already mentioned that there are other ways to keep track of him other than through email. And I want him to keep thinking along those lines. This game-playing B.S. is something I sooo completely hate.

As I always say....only time will tell.

As I already have the keylogger in place and I watch our cell phone bills, what other items are available to monitor my WS? I do want to believe him....But...that's not totally possible at his time.

Pay as you go cell phones, calling cards, bank statements looking for motel charges.

Do you know where this OW is? Where were they meeting up?

Now you have a little insight into his wayward midset. Has he shown any remorse or is he just shocked that he wasn't as smart as he thought he was. So to affair proof your marriage, you have to either:
A. Always be one step ahead of him, maybe a shock collar like dogs wear, so any wayward thought and he gets zapped.
B. Get him to open up about why he does it, why he is entitled to expose you to STDs and destroy your family and why he doesn't WANT to do it anymore.

Have you given any thought to the fact that it will be hard to recover (some would say impossible) with his work schedule?

Hmmm.....shock collar?! Oh, do I like That idea
No, but really....calling card! A few months back I did find a calling card in his change basket on our dresser. I thought that odd as he has a cell phone. Didn't link it to the possibility of an A. At least not knowingly. I have thought also about the possibility of a pay-as-you-go phone. If it does exist, it would be kept in his truck, which is parked in the truck yard, which is about 45 minutes from our home. I won't say that I haven't given serious thought to just taking his keys and "going for a ride" to the yard and snooping in his truck. Problem is, I don't know which truck is his as they are fleet trucks and all look the same.

They would meet up in the town where he lays over on Wed nights.
He no longer has that drop off in that town anymore. That route was changed back in May. She lives too far from his new drop off point to make the trip. His last email to her(the one where I finally had confirmation o the A)said that he had been "purposefully avoiding"(his quotations)her as he longer had that drop off spot anymore and that things were going so well with he and I that he did not want to "screw things up any more than he had already done"(again his quotations).

I have printed out the EN needs form for both of us to fill out this week. He is very agreeable to doing what needs to be done to fix this issue, so he claims. I will continue to push to find out his frame of mind in relation to this A. I'm also starting to think there may be a sex addiction thing going on. The deeper this goes the worse I am starting to feel. My H is a very hard man to read as far as facial expression goes. But it was his behavior that originally gave him away, especially since I am also guilty of being a WS and can remember. He says he will Never go through this betrayal again. He says he was disgusted with himself the minute he allowed the physical to happen. I believe he is remoseful for hurting me, our marriage, but also for getting caught, as much as any of us who have committed an A have been.(Up to this point I truly believe what he was telling me.) He never wants to see the hurt in my eyes ever again(although I have heard that one before).

I'm hoping because I was able to relate to much about the feelings, thoughts, regrets, excitements, feelings of addiction, fantasies(of leading a secret life), feelings of loss, etc that come with an A(which I did discuss openly with him)that I will have made some head way with our healing process. I don't know...maybe I'm just grasping for straws at this point.

As far as his work goes, he did offer immediately to give up his job if I wanted him to. Which did surprise me.(Hmm, is he smart enough to use reverse pyschology on me? Nope, don't think so.)
This job has made us the most money ever of any job he has ever held. Our debt load is well beyond what it should be and with this job has been decreasing steadily. I am not about to jepordize*sp* what little fiancialy security we have. I choose to take my chances with this. I know we don't get to spend the 15 hours a week that is recommended, but we do spend close to that. Every morning that he is home(4 mornings) we walk for and hour to an hour and a half. On weekends we usually plan and cook our evenings meals together, which we both like to do. When we watch TV, we now have our recliners pushed together(we don't have a couch, there's a reason for that, tho)so that we can hold hands. Weekends we spend a few hours each day just talking about stuff as we hang out on the front porch or we walk to the local ice cream parlor for ice cream(about a 15 min walk each way) So, I don't want to think it is as dismal a proposition as the core concepts may make it seem.

What I was wondering was...are there any other devices I can use, that aren't too complicated, to keep track of his activities, other than the keylogger I already have installed?

Thanks, Jean, again, for all your support
You keep me thinkin' !

Do you keep up with the family financials. Is money missing for motels or online memberhips that you dont know about?

I can appreciate the importance of reducing the debt and your financial security, but divorce would be a big hit to your financial security also. I don't want to harp on this point. But it makes me nervous. BUT, if his mindset changes, I am sure there are traveling spouses who never cheat.

You mentioned you fear there may be a sex addiction going on. Did you find there was more than his one PA. (STD test, STD test)

How are you doing with this bringing up memories of your affair. Has it increased you guilt feelings? Are you more aware of how to affair-proof yourself?

So far, it sounds like you and WH are doing OK.

I am sorry I don't have more tips on the snooping. I would concentrate on bank statements and computer. If he has a secret cell phone, he'll have to recharge the minutes, the $$ may show up on statement. Are you able to watch the cell phone usage. I am amazed with the technoloy where the BSs here can pull up the WS call log online.

Does he know about Marriage Builders, maybe after awhile, he will be willing to post here. (After his tour as a wayward is done).

I do not do the family financials. Never have because I had all the paperwork I could handle when I was self employed. Hubby is much better at it and much more timely than I with he bills. I do check the bank statements online and don't see much different than before. Other than he does not seem to be taking out as much $$ as he had been earlier in the year.

I am able to review our cell phone bill online as far as minutes used is concerned. But I have to wait until after the 7th of each month before I can view the whole bill as it's printed. H pays most of our bills online. I got him into doing that because I found out how much easier it was to pay my business bills in that fashion.

No, there has never been more than one PA. If you knew my H you would understand how out of character this A was for him(As I am sure most women feel that way about their H's). But he has always done the adult web site thing where he posts a profile and then waits to see who contacts him. The first time I found out about this was about 3-4 yrs ago. I was very hurt. He said he just wanted to see "what was out there"(my translation-just wanted to see if anything better caught his attention!)None the less, we talked about it and said his curiosity was answered and that was that. I do understand why he would feel that way because he only had one GF before we married and I know there was very little sex involved with that relationship(it was very apparent when we started to become intimate). So, I'll give him the curiosity factor. But that he has done it once or twice more since that initial time with this time leading to an A, maybe this is the end of all that. Maybe it's like telling a child don't touch the hot stove or you'll get burned. They keep Almost trying to touch it, just to see if Mom was right. Until one day they get so brazen because they Almost touched the stove and nothing happened so they get brave and touch the hot stove and get burned but good! I can only hope this is the case with my H. Does that make sense?

As far as my A goes, it is so far behind me(4yrs ago)and there has been NC, that it does not bother me to talk about it anymore. And no, talking about it has not made me feel any more guilty than I originally did. I did ask H if there were any unresolved thoughts or concerns that he may still have as far as my A goes. He said that as far as he was concerned all his questions had been answered and he has faith in my word that it won't happen again in our marriage. Wish I could feel that was about his behavior. Maybe someday in the not to distant future I will, God willing.

The sex addiction thing is more of an internet thing than I believe it to be an actual live sex thing. Unlike others here on MB, I do not have a problem with porn, nor with my H viewing it. I don't take it personally. It's not like he's on the computer constantly with it. It's usually only one day during the week and for a short period of time. I'm sure if he couldn't leave the computer alone, I would then have a problem with it. The 'sex addiction' thing I'm concerned about is that he is always going back to that adult web site and posting his profile to find someone for 'erotic chatting', etc. This is something I plan to bring up to him this weekend when we sit down again and talk. I would also like to confront him about deleting his browsing history to delete the sites he has gone on that would reflect what he has truly been looking at. Like deleting the sites that have his email accounts on them, the websites for the porn he looks at(like I don't know which ones he likes, Duh), etc. But if I do that, I will give away that there is a key logger on the computer. Because that would be the only way I would know that he has visited and deleted sites that I am assuming he does not want me to find out about(too late for that one!).

I have not told him about this site. But when I printed out the EN questionaire, the MB logo is on the bottom of the first page. I'm kinda hoping he takes the iniative*sp* and looks it up on his own. If not, it's something I will tell him about in the future. Also, this weekend I will be ordering SAA. And That is one book I Will give him to read.

As long as both parties are involved in financial planning for long term goals, I can see that one person is usually the check writer. Is is pay direct deposit? Could he be holding back some pay check? How was the motel room paid for. My fear is a WS rackig up credit card debt or depleting savings to finance affair. As long as you know the ins and outs of the finances, sounds OK.

Do you have detailed billing showing which numbers he is calling? Might want that if it is available.


This internet "trolling", is that how he caught the last OW. Porn is one thing, but looking to see who will "hook up" is a whole different ball of wax. One might be inclined to set up their own profile and see if hubby will bite at the bait for a NSA meeting (that would be no strings attached sex).


As long as you and H agree on where it is behind you. I agree that a FWS does have invaluable insight into the affair land. You can see how your WH went down that path. Now, you both need to build the roadblock.



Again, porn that you both agree on or know about-apples. Sites that he deletes-oranges.


I think this site is great for both people ONCE the affair is over and recovery is under way. But, if he comes here, your keylogger info will either need to be deleted or admitted to. Hopefully, he will adopt the FORMERwayward mentality real soon. If he needs the interaction of a web site, this would be much better than the casual friends site on craigslist!

Mornin Jean!

Yes his pay check is direct deposit. I don't 'think' he paid for a hotel. His truck has a doubl wide sleepin onto it. Not worried about the CC's because neither one of us carry one. We only use our debit card. When reviewing our finances the other day with H, the monthly payment amount due on his CC has not increased.

Yes, the cell phone bill that I print off the computer are itemized by #. But...some #'s do not come up complete because they are a call via the mobil web or from IM'ing. But, I do have the One page that has her celll phone # on it. Which is how I found out about OW originally. After that the #'s are scrambled because they would IM(instant messenger).

Yeah, that apples and oranges thing is really going to have to be discussed in Real Detail. The porn is fine....the adult sites gotta stop, never to be viewed ever again!

How does one go about finding a certain thread? I had read an explanation from a man about how the body functions chemically while in the thros of an affair vs the chemical reaction that happens with Love. It was Oxytocin vs ETA(brain chemicals). I don't even remember which forum I read it in, Recovery, Just found out, General ?'s II. I should have printed it out when I first read it. I found it quite interesting.

Jean, I guess all I can do at this point is continue to monitor him and wait and see. I will keep trying to be the best I can be, meanwhile continuing to build a stronger relationship with my H. Wish me Luck !

Oh...And keep reading here on MB for continued support and information !

Sounds like a good plan!!

(I am no a great searcher, but I'll look for that thread also.)

I think maybe _Larry_ is the poster with the info on PEA addiction. I did not find a thread about it, but I hope he will stop by here.