Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't know what to think! I was a little stunned as he keeps all of that anger away from me...has for some time. I totally understand his anger, though...but I do wish he would come out and straight-up tell me (or you all here) ABOUT his anger instead of having it come out like that.

BUT...I spoke to him and he says he was working out, heard the song, and thought it would be a good one for BSs as an anger-reliever. I LOVE Disturbed...have seen them front row (although I got my old A$$ kicked in the mosh pit-lol!) and that song is one of my favs, but I just thought in that context it was a little, ummmm, HARSH. However, he assures me he didn't mean it that way and that it wasn't directed at me. I'll hafta take his word for it, won't I!

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Mrs. W.

However, in my sitch, there was, in fact, big differences physically, and not just emotionally, between the married sex and the affair sex.

During 2007, for the year prior to when the A began, I was apparently coming down with diabetes. I didn't realize this because I neglected to have an annual physical. And, as the TV commercials inform us, diabetes is a cause of ED. So, as my diabetes worsened, so did our lovemaking. This led me to be embarassed, which only worsened the problem and made me reluctant to initiate sex. So, by the time OM entered the picture, FWW was very frustrated. This problem also contributed to the distance that was growing between us.

By the end of 2007, my diabetic symptoms had become readily apparent, and I sought medical assistance. I was able to get my blood sugar under control within 2 months, and, with assistance from the little blue pill, It returned to near normal. But it was too late, she was already in the A.

The only thing I could say was that the hysterical bonding that occurred for the few weeks after d-day were great. But then she described to me her sessions with OM, and blew whatever esteem I had regained out of the water.

Since then we've regained our intimacy. Other than the fact that we have to pre-plan a little for the little blue pill (or yellow pill, as the case may be), things have returned to normal. We've both accepted that ED is just an unfortunate effect of diabetes (along with ones much worse that I'll likely have to face some day). In fact, she now often intimates her interest by suggesting, "why don't you go take a pill."

I was thinking about this topic.

My self-esteem IS dented somewhat by my experiences for some obvious and some less obvious reasons I won't go into here.

I am not insecure regarding SF though. It is not a lack of sexual confidence or self esteem at play.

It is that I no longer desire SF in my marriage NEARLY so often as before. As Schnarch says in "passionate marriage" :


When SF reminds folks of bad stuff it's bad SF. So I don't desire it much.

Sexual confidence isn't a problem for me, if we're talking about the act itself. Once we get going, I'm fine.

What I have a problem with is initiating SF.

I guess it's already well-documented, but I lack the confidence to initiate SF.

During the few brief civil discussion we've had about it, my FWW says I used to have no problem, and would initiate it all the time.

I swear on my children that I have little to no memory of being that way. It's like I have no idea what to do, or when to do it. Usually, when I do start to try, I begin to feel SO awkward and uncomfortable that I just stop...pretending that the back rub was just a back rub, etc.

I know it's my own shortcoming, but what crushes my self-esteem even more than the A itself is the way it's made me unsure of how to approach my own wife. Of course, when we're discussing the issue, she tells me "just do it", but for some reason the words don't help.

OM never had an issue with how to approach my W, and the fact that I do absolutely breaks my heart and makes me feel like less of a man.

I know I'm not the only one...lacking the confidence to approach your spouse for SF is gut-wrenching.


P.S. From day one, my W has claimed that she never had an O with OM...by choice...that even though she was cheating, there were still things she didn't want to do with someone else. She says she can enjoy sex without an O. With me, she has them at the drop of a hat, and almost always multiples. I've never believed her. Has anyone heard of such a thing from a FWW? Is it even possible?

I'm not a FWW but as a woman, I can say it's possible...we are able to control our O and can pick and choose whether or not to have one just the same as a man can. She may have established that as a boundary for her, which may sound peculiar in light of what she was doing, but it tells me that she wanted SF but hadn't made the decision to end the M and wanted to reserve O just for that. That is, IF she is telling the truth.

Explore what? Emptiness, anger and bitterness? No thanks.

I have tried to explain this before, now and again. I have difficulty with clarity and conciseness, I admit.

My M during the VLTA and the previous EA was a living he11. And I didn’t know why. On a scale of 0 to 99 and a third, those 15 or so years were a 2 and seven eighths. Now, as bad as it may seem to an outsider, it is around a steady 75 point one.

That’s more than I ever hoped for and enough for me, for the time being.

When the pain of long and horrible torture starts to finally pass one does not tend to offer additional body parts for more abuse.

I was 110% focussed on my M all those years. Tying to fix what was wrong. Why she was so unhappy. Jumping at every tiny oppotunity to get her her to love me. I had no outside interests. I cowered at the thought. What if she noticed I wasn't ready to jump on command? I gave up absolutly everything I once was and once had. Sorry, MB, but I refuse to go even a tiny part of the way back there.

I have thought this through. When DS is settled in college I will decide on my next phase of life. In the meantime I am content with other interests. In the meantime I absolutely refuse to put myself in a position where I might even remotely have chance of going through that pain again.

Ther are no LBs or DJs. I meet all her ENs very well. Just like I always did. Just not under duress now.

My ENs are pretty minimal, like I was trained to be during all thsoe years. And that is OK too. I get all I need and most of what I want in life.

I keep my promises. I keep my vow.

You don't need to feel sad, bad or frustrated for me. Really.

With prayers,

ed: It occurs to me, in the sprit of the original thread, the above partly explains my reluctance to have SF with FWW. Oh, the images and the stop signs and the resulting negation of libido in general still apply. But subconsciously, I cannot go there any more. That level of intimacy would be getting way too close to the fire again.

Oh, let's see. Anger. Withdrawal. Yelling. Not so much yelling anymore. Stonewalling. Crying. Accusations I will never get over it. We should just D. I am punishing her. All the usual…

The VLTA is dead. Of that I am sure. So, as preached by a number of MB theorists, it does not need to be a topic of discussion any more. And hasn’t been for more than two years now.

And what would I bring up at this late date anyway? I know all the details I care to know. My need for prurient picking faded first. It became way too painful.

I would like to know The Why, of course, but there is no why. It just is.

She is who she is and who she always was.

I simply didn’t know who she was…would not believe who she was…

Now I know better, and plan accordingly.

With prayers,

I didn't think the use of a part of the anatomy in the context in which I sued it was "profane" at all. I'm sorry offense was taken. Feel free to edit away!

My WW tried to say the same thing. Then, OM was nice enough to immitate her "noises" over the phone for me, when I mentioned that WW said that "he sucked in bed." A friend of mine and W's also mentioned to me how one of OM's friends was laughing one day saying that WW was loud in bed. Don't know if that person was in OM's house or if one of the tenants upstairs heard my WW "O" and spread the word...or, if OM was just bragging.

Either way, I think your WW may just be sparing your feelings...like mine tried to.

I already assumed, since WW kept going back for more, that she was "satisfied".

Not to be a jerk, but would you keep going back for more sex with a woman that didn't satisfy you? I know I have had sex with quite a few women and never went back, because of lack of satisfaction. It's pretty safe to say that if a person keeps going back for more, then thay are "satisfied".

Just sayin'.

She isn't telling the truth.

There is no way his WW went to that extent to ruin their marriage, but "stopped" herself from having an orgasm out of respect for her marital boundaries. Boundaries were the last thing on her mind when she was doing OM. Men are very satisfied and proud after bringing a woman to orgasm (at least I am), and there is no way she would hold back from letting her OM get that satisfaction....IMHO.

I tend to agree with Intro. And that's from a FWW perspective. Just seems silly to have gone that far and have something so silly and stupid as a "consideration" for the H. A BETTER consideration would be not having SF with him, period. What, she thought somehow not having an O would somehow make it better? Sounds suspicious to me. Really suspicious.

However, I WOULD tend to believe her a bit more if she said she didn't have an O, not because she "didn't want to" or "wasn't trying" but because HER GUILT got the best of her while she was in bed with OM and she just couldn't shake that to get herself to an O. O's take concentration for women... well, it does for me. If my mind is racing, I'm not gonna get there. I'd believe that more. That it just HAPPENED that way, not because she WANTED it to be that way. But even that is questionable... if the SF happened more than once, I think. If it was a ONS, then I'd be more inclined to believe that story, but if it happened multiple times, then why did she keep having SF if her mind raced, she felt guilty, and never had an O??

Doesn't add up...

E.

Have to agree with intro. Can't see a WW really holding back and maintaining a boundary there. That would imply a conscience. There isn't when your pants are around your ankles and another man is doing certain things.

Who cares if she had an O with OM? She had SF with him. That's bad enough. Don't take the consolation prize of, "Well, at least she didn't have an O with him."

Assume it's a wayward lie and that she's trying to soften the heinous act just to keep from hurting you.

Nuts!

I agree that she is probably lying, but here are some things she said in defense of her seemingly ridiculous claim:

She (like many women) can enjoy sex without an "O".

Her sex with OM wasn't about having "great sex", it was about striking back at me for perceived injustices & gaining a measure of control over her life. Now she realizes how idiotic she was.

She went back because the "arrangement" they had was easy, convenient, and required almost no deception, planning, or lying.

I have went back and forth with her on this issue more times than I can count. Even after 2 years, her story has not changed one bit, even though she is clearly remorseful and wants our M to succeed.

Her affair was unusual in most aspects, so who knows?

I've assumed she's been lying the entire time, and trying to accept it.

That's a major source of anger and resentment, though.

That's probably true (boundaries were the last thing on her mind when...).
I would concern myself less with whether she had an O than the general situation itself. We have enough to worry about with dealing with their lies, their morals, getting through all our emotions in dealing with all of this, and deciding if the marriage is even salvageable.

I've got all of those concerns, too.

Sex is not satisfying without an orgasm....period. Sex is a tool used for procreating and/or satisfaction (oragasms). So, unless she repeatedly tried to procreate with OM...she was having orgasms.

Also, there is nothing "easy" or "convenient" about repeatedly having sex with someone who doesn't give you an orgasm...it's quite the opposite..."hard" and "inconvenient" would be believable.

Sorry Krazy....I know it's tough to swallow...believe me, I know.

I agree with you 99%.

Women are not like men. They do not have to have an orgasm to have fun, or to want more.

She did admit to doing the job herself during SF with OM, which is an entirely different thing, imo.

That said, I do agree that she is lying, but she will never reverse her stance.

It almost makes me angry enough to file for divorce all by itself, and has kept my temper at a low boil for 2 years now.

nothing was tough to swallow for my ex. She was basically a prostitute for her OM. While they did have intercourse 6 times over 3.5 years...their main activity (about 60 times) was her giving him head.

Figure that one out.

Hooker comes to mind.

Jesus...that's awful.

Mine screwed OM 12 times over a 3.5 year period. They never saw each other at other times, no dates, no gifts...she gave me his name and cell number, but didn't know where he lived, and didn't care to. I found that info on my own.

At least hookers get paid...my FWW didn't even get lunch.