So I posted a quick summary in another thread and the response was kinda overwhelming to me. The responses were all 'I don't know why you're still married'. I realize there is a lot here, but it seems like I've read worse stories, but maybe that is just me minimizing and my 'peacemaker' wishing too much.

I'm looking for honest feedback, and hopefully advice from anyone who's been where I am and made it.

I am a Christian, and I've forgiven the EA's themselves, although we're still sorting out all the fallout from the lies and gaslighting. So I'd appreciate any Biblical perspective on my options if there is nothing currently going on with my wife.

Here's the original summary, I'll try to write more later, but I will say also that there has been some big steps in the last 6 months. I believe she's confessed everything. She has been meeting with 'marriage mentors' (lay counselors) with me since January. She has given up online gaming, where she met most of these guys, she has also stopped contact with two other long term male relationships she had online

<<<Sorry for the driveby. I have hesitated to post our whole story since she checks what I post, and most of what I would write would have a lot of anger. I might go ahead and start anyway.

For the purposes of context and 'how am I still married to her', I'll put a brief history here.

I found out about 3 of them 6 months ago, so that's the immediate response. I was so relieved to just finally get some truth that I went through a very high honeymoon period.

Longer story.

I had a one night PA in 2001. I told her as soon as I got home (from a business trip) and begged for us to go to counseling. She refused.

She had an online EA in 2003.

I had a PA in 2003, again I told her and said either she could come to counseling with me or I would leave. She went to counseling for a few months. This is when she told me about her EA, at that point I really didn't care.

She had 2 online EA in 2006, went to counseling twice and said the counselor agreed with her that she was fine. We were in the midst of a cross-country move, so that was a convenient excuse to stop counseling, and every time after that I was told she was fine and I needed to basically stop harassing her.

She had her last online EA in fall 2007. We started seeing marriage mentors (which has been very helpful), as she still refused to go to counseling. In March she told me about the 3 other EA's.

I've been out of honeymoon phase about a month.

Just this last saturday she wrote me a letter apologizing for her gaslighting, i.e. always telling me she was fine, and didn't need counseling, which was BS and led to the subsequent affairs. She also said she would go to IC to work on her parts, which is a huge step.

I felt very good about that, to finally see remorse for that.

Boundaries is now the big issue, and we're obviously worlds apart there.

We have both read a lot of Harley material, I should say that she actually started that, when I had my PA, as I had really given up on the marriage. She plan A'd me to death, but by the time I was on board she had mostly given up.>>>


Also, I know one of the reasons she has resisted counseling in the past was my approach, basically I was a pretty big jerk. I had dealt with forgiving my father of sexually abusing me about 6 months before we got married, and I went through a brutally honest phase. I was a little too honest with her, I actually called her 'Ice Woman' because she wouldn't cry in front of me. I always thought she had sexual abuse issues from her childhood that contributed to the way she deals with things. The last year I have really changed a lot and she has been more receptive to counseling, she is going to start IC in addition to the marriage mentoring.

All these things changing and what I see as progress makes me think that we can continue to progress. I know we have some major boundary issues, but we are working them.

MBS,

Thank you for starting your own thread. Welcome.

Unsalvagable? Not in my experience.

Sounds like you're both finally beginning recovery after several years.

I'm glad you've learned the difference between brutal honesty and radical honesty (Dr. Harley's)...Brutal has LBs in it...so it isn't respectful, hence, not really honest.

Radical Honesty does not have DJs, like Ice Woman...when you are radically honest, you own your feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions...you don't define others...you know what is yours and share it...an act of intimacy. Hence, the honeymoon period you experienced.

Not too honest...honest and respectful.

Holding to new boundaries, finally--she quit online gaming and is in IC...healthy boundaries.

How are you worlds apart on boundaries? Do you mean your own personal boundaries, marital boundaries (which you POJA) or both?

LA

MBS, Thanks, I realize I might have not posted enough, but I was kinda shocked by the other responses. Doesn't mean I'm not crazy, but nice to see someone thinks there's a chance here.

Boundaries is really a big issue. It took a lot of dragging just to get her to stop talking to those two guys.

She also wants to keep all the guys from high school and the camp she worked at in her facebook and myspace friends lists. She doesn't see anything different than them and the girls from those periods, again, since she hasn't done anything 'in real life' she doesn't see a comparison regarding my comfort level. When I told her I was uncomfortable with this, her response is those aren't "relationshps"...

I meant to put this with what I posted above, this was the 'driveby' I originally posted, which admittedly was written in anger.

<<<How about a wife who wants to go out to a bar or concert with her girlfriend, have a drink or two, then sleep over at her house.

The girlfriend and her husband are swingers.

Wait, I'm sorry, that was rude and judgmental. They aren't 'currently' in a swinging relationship, they have just, in the past, engaged in extra-marital sex. And plan to do so in the future, but I digress (allegedly).

My wife doesn't understand why I would possibly have a problem with this, as her affairs, all 4 of them, were online. She's never "done anything like that" so doesn't understand how the two could possibly have anything to do with the other.

Discuss.>>>

So yeah, we got boundary issues, or I should say, she does. I truly believe everything else is out, or I probably wouldn't be around. But as you stated better than I, we have both had the crazies, and this is the closest we have been to being sane at the same time. So I think it's still worth a shot.

Okay, so the marital boundary compliance is the issue.

Would you both consider deleting Facebook/Myspace accounts now for six months of intense recovery? I ask because your marriage has been bleeding for seven years...gonna take some major attention to stop the bleeding and begin healing the wounds.

Have you both read Dr. Harley's "Surviving an Affair"? "Fall in Love, Stay in Love"? "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend?

And she's right...they aren't real relationships...they are fantasy ones...even the old friends from high school...when you refuse to protect your marriage, you put old friends ahead of it, don't you?

Doesn't seem like it...it is. EA's are fantasy...if you want to keep old BF friendships, then you are putting energy and work into those relationships...which means you're taking your focus away from the man you vowed to...putting anything else ahead of the marriage is betrayal, isn't it?

You, MBS, are real...and your wife is real...and both of you have had coping skills with fantasy gone to extreme...permissions to harm your marriage...and now, you're changing those permissions, together.

Anytime you find yourself justifying, you're lying. That's been my rule of thumb for the last four years. So nothing justifies not taking extraordinary precautions...like not going to the bar without you, or sleeping over at anyone els's house...because to have A's, we gotta lie long and hard to ourselves...and to our spouses, and justifications are a signal we're doing that.

You both go No Contact with anyone who is not a friend of your marriage...for the same six months...so you can both experience someone who isn't on one side or the other--on the side of the marriage...usually other couples...and you make sure you both become friends of your friends' marriages, too...that boundary really bounces both ways...support the marriage over the friendship.

Gives you a new marital perspective...and it's teambuilding for you.

What you wrote wasn't rude or judgemental...maybe the tone you hoped to communicate was...stating facts is not rude or judgmental. Stating your opinion as fact is.

Comparing your A's to her A's is difficult...and I think it's messing up your boundary issues...going for clarity right now...try this on:

She's devastated and didn't heal from your physical affairs. She cannot comprehend how her EA's are equivalent to your PA's because they are different in her beliefs.

All A's attack the marriage. Two other women got your body for a night...that was sacred domain for your wife...hurts like crazy to have lost that to what was hers.

Four other guys got her attention, focus and heart...that sacred domain which was only yours...feels like you lost that to what was solely yours.

You can't measure, judge or pat down which is worse or not...they are both affairs, both attacked and shredded your marriage and now you both are choosing to rebuild...essentially make a new marriage...which means agreeing right now and forward what hurts, doesn't protect, attacks and could destroy your marriage.

Intimate conversations or actions (in any mode) with members of the opposite sex. Period.

Choosing to dwell in our heads on members of the opposite sex...taking our focus off ourselves and putting it into others...not making our marriages our top priority (which has you, her and the marriage); putting any hobby, job, family member, old friend, imaginary friend ahead of the marriage.

Before any of the other boundaries are worked out...install this new one..."I will not react to my feelings; I will choose my actions from my beliefs."

Revoke the permission to push-me-pull-you and react. Makes you both sane all the time. State, don't demonstrate..."I caught myself thinking about your last EA today and I felt angry, hurt, robbed, excluded and threatened all over again."

No more "she did so I can do" or switch the pronouns...each time you choose to react based on her response, you are betraying yourself and your marriage. You aren't doing your half, holding yourself to healthy boundaries--you're manipulating hers. Focus on your own.

Are you guys doing communication exercises? Getting in 20 hours of UA time together, a lot of which is RC?

LA

LA,

I don't think she would agree to that. I asked about deleting the guys, and her response is 'if I do that then I might as well get rid of the whole thing' this is where I have gotten into trouble, because I have often taken that bait and devolved into DJ's and LB's quickly. When it comes down to it and I say, so would you be willing to do that, there is never an answer, or she goes off onto something else to avoid that. I won't discuss this with her outside of counseling at this point, or any boundary stuff, it just gets too emotional too quickly.

I never try to compare the two, EA/PA, but I do believe her lack of boundaries and acting out sexually online could easily translate into real life behavior. That's not unreasonable, is it?

That is the one part that does give me pause, everything boundary wise is a result of us dragging her kicking and screaming. There is no attempt on her part to protect me, or even consider what I consider hurtful. When I tell her things hurt me, she tries to justify why she should be able to do it, like you said, and my feelings are never even discussed.

She admitted saturday (finally) that she was still resentful over my affair, and mostly how I treated her in the short term, about 6 months, after that.

So yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I guess we just keep plugging away with counselors and try to hammer boundaries out.

I've read all those but 'Boundaries' which I have, just haven't read yet. She claims not to like to read, but she sure did a lot of reading in 2003...

Ok, seriously, how is it possible to give 20 hours of truly undivided attention with a job and 4 kids, church, etc. It's not like either of us have any clubs or leagues we are in, or even really do anything outside the house, but after dishes, laundry and everything else, I just don't see where 20 extra hours are... Is that just me, or do you just like do dishes together and count that?!? That is the one thing that just has never seemed realistic to me.

I believe it is 15 hours/week and yes, dishes could count towards that, riding in a car, but not watching t.v....it has to be something that allows for interaction and undivided attention. Don't make it all chores though, there should be fun involved, play games, do something recreational. 1 1/2 hours/night during M-F plus 7 1/2 hours on the weekend adds up to 15 hours, yes an adjustment, but if that's what it takes!

In my estimation, giving up myspace or facebook should be of lesser significance than creating a great marriage, and each other's feelings should be of definitely greater significance than keeping up with old acquaintances. (joint agreement) A compromise could be worked with both of you holding the passwords to each other's accounts so you could read what each other write. A problem could still arise, however, where someone else posts something that could be less than supportive of the marriage, not realizing the spouse reads everything...in that case, the person could be removed as a "friend" so future postings could not occur.

Good luck in your rebuilding of this marriage, there is a reason why you have both stuck around through everything!

Wow, I guess that sounds pretty reasonable!

I think we're really both addicted to the computer. She has been for years, so eventually that was the only way for me to spend time with her I even played her online games with her.

She sat on the couch next to me, both with our laptops, sometimes even when I was logged into her game with her, talking to the most recent guy

Needless to say, I'm no longer into gaming, and get bored easily online other than this board and 1 music board.

We used to play board games after kids went to bed, time to break those out, methinks.

Thanks.

MBS,

As an alternative, I really like Vows4Good's suggestion...where if you both continue on Facebook, then she writes about her marriage...and she doesn't privately email or message a member of the opposite sex, nor do you.

You both have all your passwords to email, cell and voicemails.

You both commit to transparency...meaning she tells you when she's contacted by any of the XOM and you guys can write No Contact (NC) letters to them?

Yes to the board games...and yes to foot massages while doing communication exercises (just two half hours per week); to dancing in your livingroom in the dark to music...doing non-verbal communication exercises (these are really fun). To making something in the kitchen together, after the kids are asleep, and struggling to giggle quietly.

Stop the DJs..."and she goes off into something else to avoid that" is a DJ. She doesn't answer you. She won't discuss extraordinary precautions yet. Okay. Getting away from the computer, going through withdrawal, and then planning on revisiting healthy marital boundaries later.

Understand what the real addiction is--fantasy. Addictions are distractions taken to extremes...to avoid reality. You may feel avoided, btw.

Kudos to keeping certain topics of discussion within counseling right now...you're in transition time...back to reality. Are you working on eliminating your own LBs?

Sounds to me like you're still comparing when you say her acting out online means she could do it in real life, as well. Yes, yes, yes...cheating is cheating. Both of you did it. You both chose A's over the marriage...you both brought people into your marriage where there's only room for two. Both are terribly destructive.

And in a wayward state of mind, each justification is a lie, 'k? Got it? Let that go...she's willingly, right now, to tread in unfaithful, affair-filled waters...because she has been and she's not getting totally in the boat...she's getting closer. Be aware. You can't make her get in the boat...she chooses.

You cannot drag her anywhere...she choosing...and yeah, she may choose to climb into the marital boat again, out of those dangerous waters, and do so reluctantly, kicking and screaming...and still climb into the boat. Respect she chooses. She chooses to cross personal and marital boundaries and not cross them. You can't control a single choice.

Nor can she control yours. Why did you have two A's? Have you owned what you did, why you did, and how and why you won't do it again? You haven't for five years...most likely you did this...yet from that experience, you allowed marital boundaries to be crossed, anyway...search yourself for that...see what kind of stinkin' thinkin' may have been involved...and why you won't fall into those permissions again.

Focus on healing your own resentment...ask your MC for exercises to help you get rid of that festering, awful habit...because it damages every single human relationship we have and it's fantasy, not reality.

Mind your own feelings first...own and state them...if you are feeling abandoned, uncared for...then trace those feelings...to your beliefs..."She puts others ahead of our marriage" and you may believe "she puts others ahead of me...she wants others and not me...I'm last place...I'm dirt to her." Find out what's in your own head...what you're hearing...and address those...so you can really get clear to have and enforce clear boundaries.

You may well be putting her ahead of your marriage, which isn't healthy, either. Damages you...and you may be abandoning your own self while you focus entirely on what she is and isn't doing/thinking/feeling/believing...absorbed where you have no control.

You feel pain. State your pain and trace it...and share your process. You feel fear...do the same thing...treat your emotions as your own...feel anger after fear...share where it's coming from in you, what thought/belief it's came from and two things will happen...one, the emotion drops way down when you own, trace and share...and two, she'll stop believing she is the cause, control and cure for you...which is a great distraction from her inherent responsibility for solely being the cause, control and cure for herself, her choices.

Balance...balance the boat...you're in it...see where you were making waves and didn't even know it...focus on you, your healthy personal and marital boundaries...check them out...then take time to determine what enforcements you will do when you cross those boundaries...they are predetermined and progressive...and you gotta hold yourself to them.

Since you didn't hold her to the marital ones, I'm guessing you aren't so aware of enforcing them around you. They free you, btw, not shame you. If you feel shame, you're doing it wrong.




I didn't understand this--would you please clarify for me?

Yes, it is totally possible to spend 20 hours of UA every single week with two jobs, four kids and a hamster. Focus more on finding that time...making it your top priority...because that's what is required for a marriage in crisis...and your marriage is in crisis, 'k?

Think of how difficult it would be to get 10 hours of UA a week when you're divorced. Sure helped me to find and stick to it.

Like V4G said...do chores together...side by side...and while you do them, know and share your stuff (stuff=thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions)...that's acting from love and intimacy...and you will feel intimate. Listen to her when she speaks and repeat what you heard, so she can confirm or clarify you really heard her...experience this intimacy, this respect...feel connected, brave and true...because you are.

Cut out television time and computer time in the evening...check your kids for age appropriate bed times...POJA with your spouse about maybe reading aged kids can go to bed a half-hour early and get to read for half an hour before lights out (great for them to get wind-down time).

You guys could allow yourselves a half-hour of computer time in the morning (is she a SAHM?) before work...make sure you guys are getting your required sleep...no computers or tvs in the bedroom...make it your sanctuary from the world...go to bed at the same times and get up at the same times.

All the new you do builds a new marriage...all are acts of commitment and love...which are what our feelings of commitment and love are built on.

You can talk walks and talk side by side instead of eye to eye...you can go for ice cream...read to one another aloud...and you can get her the books on CD to listen to in the car or at home (my DH chooses not to read, either).

Key is to not divide your attention...making 15 minutes when you get home from work...making eye-contact and bringing yourself into the present (leave work at work, the past in the past and the future in the future). Presence matters. Awareness, not judgment, is your marital friend right now, 'k?

Another 15 minutes...then later, a full hour before bed. That's 7.5 hours during the week. Then schedule marital time only on each Saturday night for date night from 6pm until 1am...and on Sunday, take an afternoon nap together, prepare dinner together while you share your appreciation, admiration, enjoyment of the other from the night before (all SF counts btw towards UA time). Share remembrances of when you both first met, were dating...tiny stories...how you felt, what you thought, maybe how you still feel and think, eh?

Each time you hold yourself to speaking when you feel gratitude, joy, love, see her meeting a need (watching her with one of the children), you make deposits and it's a minute of UA time, when you share. All adds up, I promise.

LA

Mr. B,

You are both, you and your wife,

betrayed and wayward.


The reason people post to you to give up is because the history of multiple affairs between the two of you makes recovery difficult.

I say "difficult".

You will not hear me say "impossible".


You have before you both a great deal of work. The Harley principles and concepts will work, but you don't get to pick and choose them, and you do need to both have an understanding - I believe - an in depth understanding because of the nature and expanse and length of time of the problems in your marriage.

You two have a long history of affairs to overcome. You two both have lots of resentment and anger to overcome.

And habits of communication and behavior toward one another, failures to communicate, failures to nourish one another, that will need to be completely revamped.

You do see that an attitude of disrespect toward your wife will NOT lead you in the direction you need to go in, don't you?

Because you choose to recover this marriage, the first thing you will need to grasp is that you control only one person - you.

The next thing you need to grasp is that the choices you make, and your behaviors in the marriage must be made each and every moment in the direction of

marriage building.


Control yourself
Make choices and act in the direction of marriage building


Those two simple concepts really do focus in on the foundational building blocks toward recovery. Because you are controlling YOU, the focus becomes easier. You are not looking at what your wife does wrong, what she is doing, what she isn't doing, etc. You are focused on what YOU are doing, because in the end, the only person you can really control is YOU.

and the second part

Because you are focused on making choices and actions in the direction of building the marriage, your choices and actions are focused toward meeting these needs:

your wife's emotional needs
your combined needs as a man and wife
your family's overall needs
your own personal needs as a man to support the marriage and family

When these things come together, the focus on controlling what you can (you), and making choices and actions focused toward building the marriage, you cannot help but succeed.

Your wife will respond in kind, because it is the nature of people to follow honesty with honesty, kindness with kindness, faithfulness with faithfulness, goodwill with goodwill.

Out of these acts toward her, toward marriage building, out of this, love will grow.

Someone has to go first.

You are here. Ask your wife to post, too. Even though some of the people sound tough, in the end, marriages are saved here. We all work toward the same end - you can ignore anyone you don't like here. With the touch of a button.

SB

LA and SB,

Thanks so much, I don't have time to respond to everything right now, but what you've reminded me of has made a huge impact.

I realize I have slipped back into trying to direct her actions, and not focus on me and my approach.

I'll post more later, but basically neither one of us has followed through with our Plan A's. She did it in 03 until I was pretty committed again, then stopped because she thought she was trying to make me do too much. In 06 I knew she was having an EA, but I couldn't prove it, and I felt like I had no credibility or standing since I had done what I had done.

Last fall I took a good look at my approach, and really started working on that, and it's been pretty good, and I think that had a lot to do with the progress we've seen. A month ago I really started to deal with my anger, and I haven't been doing a good job at being angry with her and her actions while not being angry at her, if YKWIM?

This is the time I really need to keep showing her my love, and improving myself. Glad I finally posted here.

Thanks all, I'm not going anywhere, will post more after putting kids to bed and trying to play a game with her.

Ok, so no UA tonight Sitting in the pot you boiled and stoked the fire on is such sweet misery. Wish I could bottle that feeling up and take a sip whenever I get in LB mood, so I could remember what not to do...

On the bright side-ahem-I have time for replies. There's so much I'll tackle each until I get tired.


Well, she deleted them both today. We were talking about something else and it came up, it was mostly calm, but I made a stupid 'never' and 'nothing' statement that simply wasn't true. That was before I read all but the first reply and that coupled with all your replies really opened my eyes to what's been going on with me. Not how I wanted it to happen, and I told her that. But I suppose it is a good thing at this point, and I thanked her for doing it.


I have read SAA and FILSIL, I have 'Boundaries' but haven't read it yet. I think she read FILSIL years ago, but not the others.


This is what I feel and really need to work on how I communicate this to her. Is it a LB to say 'you are putting X ahead of the marriage, of me' in any way? Is it worth working on this stuff right now, or do I just concentrate purely on building us?


This is pretty helpful, I have really realized how self-centered I have become. She has been doing a lot. It's not everything I would want in a perfect world, but it is huge leaps and bounds beyond anything that she was doing a year, 9 months, even 6 months ago. And (totally not to toot my own horn, her words here) that was totally because of my attitude and change in approach. So, really, do I want to try to do the same thing that didn't work for 10 years, or do the thing that has had amazing results for the last year, hmmm, let me think... :p


I think I might get this tattooed on the end of my nose.


Like the whole, state, restate, repeat thing? We can barely get through that on the touchy issues when the mentors are here Should we try that with like random non-marriage subjects, to practice, like, "which do you prefer, sandals or flip-flops?" I think that is what has me frustrated lately, I feel that we're really getting to some core issues, but I get impatient, then we end up having bad conversations. I know that has a lot to do with my attitude, but if we could get to a point where we could talk about this stuff more than once a week I think that could help too.


We might actually be close on this, I'd say around 10 hours. Some good practical ideas from the others on this I'm going to start again.

Ok, we're going to watch a movie, yay. I'll reply more when I get a chance.

Thanks all!

Mr. B,

Check out Not2L8's thread. You might find it an interesting read with regard to recovered marriages and justifying your own actions against your wife (your affairs).

It might be worth picking up a different kind of book, I reference it there.



SB