Hi, I'm a noob here but my own personal problem has been going on for nearly a year. I'll give my backstory at another time...

I've been trying really hard to implement Plan A, being nice,avoiding confrontation etc. but now school hols are nearly over (here in London, UK) is when the problem will raer it's ugly head again. My wife of 20 years has been having an EA/PA with someone who works at our daughters' school. This has been going on for about a year, I have confronted her in the past and threatened divorce if she continues to contact/see him, which she is still doing behind my back. But she says she won't and then days later is up to her old tricks again.

Neither of us can financially afford to move out. I pay all the bills, mortgage etc. so I cannot go elsewhere, and out of principle I won't leave the house. I can attempt to throw her out, but her name is on the mortgage, i.e. the house is half hers, and she will refuse to leave anyway.

So how do I implement Plan B while living in the same house? We have 2 daughters aged 13 and 15. They know things have been tense between my wife and I, but they don't know fully for what reason. Also, on the surface you wouldn't think there was a problem, we get along really well. I think I'm fulfilling my wife's emotional needs? But she is so deceitful, she also has a 'secret' mobile (cell) phone at one of her friends houses which she goes to weekly, to call/text him. She doesn't know that I know this. Sorry to rant, maybe if I get a bit more time I'll post my backstory more thoroughly and it may make a bit more sense.

Any advice or comments welcome

Call her friend that is enabling the affair and ask if there is any way your WW can stay at his/her place.

Chances are that if your WW is currently in a PA with OM she'll be more than happy to get out of the house anyway. That way she can continue having sex with OM without hiding as much from you.

Ok, AFAIK they are not having 'sex'. They only get a few, maybe 15 minutes at a time to get together. This is when my wife goes to the school because she is the chair of the Parents Association for the school. He is a caretaker and stays late to lock up after the meetings. Her buddies on the Assoc are aware of what she is up to, but turn a blind eye. One of them even stands guard outside whichever room they go to.

I don't think the friend will let her stay with her if it came to it. I'm sure my WW will point blank refuse to leave anyway. I'm at the stage though where I still love her, it's stupid I know after what she is doing to me. We still have sex and on the surface you wouldn't know there is a problem with our marriage. I've been on Plan A for a while and was going to go for B maybe in Sep/Oct. I don't want to use our kids as 'go-betweens' that's not fair on them, they will be heart broken as it is.

Phil, welcome to MB...

I'm not sure you understand what Plan A really is:


Plan A doesn't avoid conflict...it meets it with reality. Have you informed the school that their employee is having an affair with your wife? Put it in writing and send it to each member of their governing board...and to the janitors' wife/girl friend. Exposure is really important--brings reality, breaks apart the A's secrecy.

Have you also informed her parents, siblings, and asked them to help you fight for your marriage? Again, ask for help...and you'll receive it.

Expose to your kids, too...they already know something is up, and most likely have lived in fear and shame for an entire year--believing if they share with their father, they'll break his heart, as if they are the bad guys...and struggling alone with great love for their mother, just not THIS mother who puts another man ahead of her marriage and her children.

If the janitor isn't fired, change schools. Do what it takes for NC. Dr. Harley says to move away to ensure NC. You'll have to move, anyway, won't you, if there's a divorce? One leaves you an intact family with a hero--the other leaves you all in a world of pain and fear for years and years. Both may have embarrassment...one has a thriving marriage at the end of it.

Plan A is bringing reality--you state you know she's continuing her A which attacks your marriage. You know that any contact continues the A.

Because you do know this. And whatever it was that you did which has convinced you to suffer so much for this past year, without living in a moment's truth or sharing the truth with others suffering with you--get rid of it. Nothing justifies an A.


Great choice in not living the house--your children need their routines, their environments to get through this...her name is also on a marriage certificate, Phil...if you do a real Plan A for two months, then you can do the Plan B...separate your finances right now so you are not contributing any money for her A (you don't know what she may be spending your money on for OM).

No Plan B without exposure...because when you don't expose, you truly are aiding and abetting the A. You ask her "friends" (meaning one of them with the secret cell) to be friends of your marriage, for your WW's and children's sake...that each time they aid your WW in contact, they are attacking your marriage and you don't believe they intend to do that, anymore than they would appreciate you aiding their husbands in having an A.

All A's are about deceit...takes a long road of self-deception to get into a wayward mindset...Gimble said "An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect." This is the formula to know and understand...generates the fog...and all justifications are lies. When you lie to yourself, you lie to others...and truth isn't something you can lay your hands on, or want to...A's are fantasy. Truth breaks fantasy; reality tops fantasy. Unless you're voluntarily participating in it.

You can do this.

Stop with your DJs...study Harley's books and articles here on this website...Disrespectful Judgments ARE fantasy. You're not stupid to love your WW...you CHOOSE to love and act from your love. Gives you loving feelings...and acting to save your marriage can actually keep love deposits going because YOU are acting in honesty, respect and with courage.

Never use your children as intermediaries, if that's what you meant about go-betweens. Your DDs are already in the middle...please see this a it really is, not as you wish it would be.

Until you do a real Plan A, where you eliminate your LBs, know and meet her ENs, follow those four brilliant rules for marriage...and bust the A apart, you don't stand a chance. And I don't think you can stand yourself any longer for not really fighting for your marriage.

LA

Hi LA. Thanks for your reply


No, I haven't informed the school. The Deputy head and OM's boss know what's going on, they're just as bad. The DH is also having an A, and OM's boss (who is a woman) keeps my WW up to date on what OM is up to, sometimes act as an intermediary for my W to pass texts on to OM! Again, WW does not know I know this. If I go to Head, the OM will know it's me that is stirring up the poop. OM thinks with his fists, he has been divorced twice and has had numerous As. His GF does not know A is still going on. She found out in the early days (last Aug/Sep) and threatened to kick him out, which didn't happen. At the same time she threatened to beat up my W!


Her M died last July which was one of the triggers to the A. They were very close and during her last months, she said to my W that she had regrets over her marriage to my FIL. This put the seed in my W's mind that our marriage wasn't too great either, and I got the 'We should do our own things, have our own friends' speech. Ok, we'd been married for 19 years and things do go a bit stale. So I bucked my ideas up and paid her more attention than usual and groomed myself a lot more, not that I was a slob anyway! Sorry went off for bit there! So no, Her M didn't know and her F does not know at the moment. My SIL and BIL have been very good, they know the whole story, but won't side with one or other. They have told her to stop and she thinks she has fooled them that she has done so. But I tell them what I know, the truth, and they are dismayed at how she can lie to them too. They are sick of it and think I should either call it a day, or put up with it!


So so difficult. This week I will ask my WW to give her up her role at the school, and to avoid going there for any reason without me. She still takes them to school even though it's a 10 min walk away! If she refuses, then I will have no option but to expose to everyone. Let's see what she thinks of that.


Can't see that happening. If he loses his job, he will be after me. He is violent and knows some nasty people. He has threatened me 3 times already when I confronted him.


The only people I have told the whole story to is my SIL, BIL and my closest friend. Also a MC which we went to, but stopped going 3 months ago. MC said NC with OM, but my WW would lie to her as well, saying she had stopped, but hadn't really. Also, felt as though MC justified the A by my W losing her Mum!


All my money goes into joint account and pays for everything. There isn't any left over at the moment for 'fun' it all goes on bills. Work is quiet and I haven't felt like going to work anyway. If I leave for work early, will think WW is up to no good, it's happened before. I go to work and she is straight on the phone either to OM or her friends. I'm using DVR at home, but she is keeping low with calls etc. I think she suspects I'm up to something. On the other hand, she has just got a job after 20 years of being a SAHM (her choice) and now has her own banking account and just signed up for her own credit card. Yes, some of the money is going towards the bills but...


The people on the exposure list are...her Dad, poss the school, the 'friends' on the Parents Association (though they know anyway, once they know I know, let's see how they feel), her friend with the cell phone. Not sure whether to come clean about this bit (to my WW) Should I go in 'all guns blazing' and show my whole hand? i.e. knowing about the 'other' phone? She will know I've been recording her and will clam up. Now she has a job, she can do other stuff from there. I will never get to know.


I hope so.


What DJs have I made? I've read SAA (WW got to page 70 before giving up, she thought she didn't need to read anymore)


Yes, that's what I meant. My DDs are 15 and 13, but not 'grown up' yet in the respect of being able to deal with something like this.


But can you expose and meet ENs when your WW hates you for doing so? Thanks for your input LA

Mods, can this topic be moved to General Question II please? Or can someone advise as to how to contact a Mod to do this.

Thanks

Phil,

At the bottom of this post (or yours above) there is a few buttons...one of them says "Notify"...if you click this button, it will notify a moderator about your post...then it will give you an area to type in your objection or desire for them to move your thread to another forum.

I'll wait to respond to your post when it's moved, 'k?

LA

Hi LA

I've asked mods to move but you can post your reply anyway. It's difficult getting access to the PC at times, so I await your thoughts!

Phil

I don't think you understand Plan A.
It's not about avoiding making your WW angry.
Plan A is about avoiding LBs and meeting ENs.
Openness & Honesty is an EN, and Dishonesty is a LB.

Failing to expose the A is enabling it.
Your failure to expose implicitly condones the A.

If you learned that one of your children stole something from the school, would you expose them, or would you keep quiet for fear of making them angry?

OK, maybe not a perfect analogy because you are entrusted with raising your children, but your WW is not your charge, she is your peer.

How about if you found a colleague at work stealing from the company? From your wallet? Would you expose them? Or shrink back for fear of making them angry?

It appears to me that you live in a great deal of fear. Fear of your WW's anger. Fear of threats that OM made. Fear of threats OM's GF made to your WW. Those threats are nothing more than posturing. You know how a wounded animal, when backed into a corner, will growl and snap? These people's threats are the exact same thing. They're thinking "If I look big and mean enough, maybe he'll go away. I feel like I'm in real danger here."

Grow a spine.
Expose.

You're probably right, I do live in fear and I don't feel in control. I'm monitoring the situation rather than acting on my findings. That said, if his GF did give my WW a black eye or similar, how would I feel? I'm not sure, part of me thinks she would deserve it, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. But no, I don't wish my WW any physical harm. She needs the fog clearing and I guess it's up to me to do it.

Just a little after 3am here in London, I'm off to bed in the next hour or so, and today is the start of the new school year. I'm dreading it cos I know it's make or break coming up. I have to tell my WW either she cuts contact with the school as a minimum or what...? Is our marriage over if she chooses to carry on going to the Parent meetings etc.?

Wow that's the danger with threads in GQII, you blink and you're on Page 2!

Anyway, didn't sleep to well was awake at around 8am listening for the front door to go and the kids (and wife) going to school. They had a late start today and WW was back pretty quickly. She doesn't come up to see me as I'm usually asleep 'cause of working nights.

I know it's crazy living your life like this, timing how long it takes her to drop the kids off at school, not with a stopwatch but you know roughly how long it should take. And if she takes 15-20-25 mins you're thinking 'Is she talking to him or one of her collabarators?'. I need to get a grip on lots of things but I seem to fall at the final hurdle. Some would say well before then.

Plan B cannot be done while living together. It is supposed to give the WS a taste of what divorce will look like. She cannot have that living in her house with her H.

It defeats the purpose entirely. Nor will it give your wife any motivation to end her affair; it will ENABLE HER affair to last longer.

But you have many more opportunities, such as exposure, that should be done before Plan B.

Phil: did you do the first step: EXPOSURE? Has the affair been exposed to the workplace, your children, her parents, close friends?

Phil,

Thank you for your patience with my reply time.

How do you know who knows what's going on? You nailed it with the new information...that you know...and that you're fighting for your marriage.

Do not put yourself in the position of beliving WW on somethings and not on others...again, she's been practicing self-deception for a long time...understand this and verify the truth independently. Do not rely on her saying who is doing what, knows what, 'k?

Go directly to OM's boss's boss...do a letter to the superintendent...whatever it takes to inform...and include a copy to Deputy Head and OM's boss. Respectful exposure, 'k? Means you don't assume who already knows.

You can include in the letter that you know OM's boss has aided and supported the affair. You do not say how you know, 'k? Also include OM's three previous threats of violence to you if you exposed his ongoing A and that you have filed for a restraining order. That you do not believe your children are safe at their school.

Okay to fear OM, not to react to it by not exposing. In England, you have restraining orders? Get one. Very reasonable to do and a healthy precaution.

Copy the GF with the same exposure letter...send it registered mail so she has to sign for it. In fact, do that with the Headmaster (maybe that's the title instead of superintendent?) letter as well. Worth the extra to know they were delivered.

Good awareness on WW's mother's death as being a trigger...it is...and not for the seed you're seeing. Maybe that's more icing on the cake of resentment your WW has been baking for years, 'k? Like a final permission implied...and I don't say this to correct you, rather, to alert you that the fog is not instant...our thinking goes off the tracks and keeps going...and grieving can jump normal tracks. The actual loss, not the words shared, is what I'm emphasizng here.

Next, tell your SIL and BIL there are no sides...you're asking them to side for the marriage (not either one of you), just as you would do for their marriages (WW's brother and sister, correct?).

Keep stating truth, even when others feel sick hearing it.

From your last post, I take it she chose to continue to take the kids to school, to have contact, is that correct? Keep your promise to yourself and expose, please. Your marriage is worth it.

OM would lose his job because he chose to have an A with a student's mother. Not because you exposed. Keep that straight in your mind...what he does are his choices...and what you do are yours.

I know you don't want to look into the eyes of your children five years from now and say, "I didn't fight her A because I was afraid." I KNOW that's not you.

You can move your family to end contact, too. You have choices...do not allow anyone else to take those choices in your mind...it's your mind...own it.



Think to yourself, "What would I do if I were not afraid?" Bravery is in the rearview mirror. We were all afraid, Phil. Honestly. Fear doesn't go away. We hold and do not act from it.

Share with her you know she's continuing the affair, is choosing to attack your marriage and you're going to fight for your marriage. Get a bank account of your own where your direct deposit from work goes into it...then you put the amount for the bills into the joint account...and only enough for them...do up a spreadsheet and show her what you're paying for. Don't pay for everything...stop. Do a ratio between what you make and what she makes...if she makes 25% of your salary, then she pays 25% of the bills from her account.

Again, clarity not control. When you don't feel in control, take it as a signal you're dwelling where you have no control--past, future, trying to get others to do/not do--so you can refocus on where only you have control, in your choices.

And it's not a one-time refocusing...we do it repeatedly.

Are you helping out more in the domestic area since she's returned to work? Have you identified her top ENs right now? Have you identified and eliminated your LBs?

Do the whole exposure at once...and include your girls, 'k? No warning...no "if you don't stop I'll" threats. Don't say how you know...state that you know. That it's harming your marriage, your family. And that you're asking for their support of your marriage--and to not support the A.

You have never and will never control her choices. What you do control is knowing them...acknowledging she chooses...and your limits...and your power--stating what you know.

Your DDs are ALREADY dealing with their mother's infidelity, believe me. You require honesty from them...hold yourself to being honest with them. State the facts--their mother chose to have an A, you've known about it and kept it from them, and she continues to have contact, which continues the A. Tell them you're standing for your marriage, your deepest desire for an intact family and that they don't have to fix anything. You're including them in what was already affecting them.

And they don't need to do anything. You'd like the opportunity to hear what they think whenever they think it; doesn't change you're a family and always will be.

They can definitely tell their mother "No" when it comes to walking them to school. Their choice.

I can't remember now in your other post...DJs are assumptions...assuming what others are thinking, feeling, how they will react or not...like OM will do this if you do that; that WW will feel this if you don't do this. These are the bits of fantasy we've taught ourselves is reality...to manuever, manage and cope. Not real.

A-busting takes clarity, reality and bringing it to yourself and WW. Not you doing something awful, Phil...just a new way to live right now...Plan A requires you to change a lot of stuff, inside and out...and you are. Awareness of DJs really helps to let go the LBs because they weren't who you really were, could not be justified.

Doing so lessens YOUR pain right now, too. Very helpful in Plan A.

About exposing and meeting ENs...your acts of love are yours...exposure is from love of your marriage...staying calm, listening and repeating, even when WW is really upset about her choice to have an A is known by others (and others know), and that you're not going to be an accomplice anymore in covering for them. You disrespected her by doing so...fearing her anger more than the loss of your marriage. We do that...did that...and when we stop, we live, anyway, 'k?

Spend more time with your girls during this time...(meets the EN for FC, too)...be very present...if your WW feels hate right now, she feels it...your acts of love feed your own love bank when her A is ripping out handfuls, 'k? You want your marriage--you want to recover and build a new marriage--you can do that.

Your choice.

LA

Do you handle all the finances and pay all the bills? Are you absolutely 100% sure ALL the money is going to bills? I used to think so too and then I found out WstbxH had been siphoning the joint account for years. Scary thing was all that time he was blaming me for being the one who spent too much money on nonessentials (like groceries I suppose when I should have been buying OW fancy underwear :RollieEyes:). Even if you are the one who does this, it wouldn't hurt to go back through your bank statements to see if there is anything odd.

As far as the finances go, I was absolutely terrified that I would be able to afford to survive on my own - either with or without the house. In reality you can. But it is still terrifying. What you can do now while you are fixing up your Plan A is get your finances in order. Take her name of the joint account, or close the account and open a new one in your name only so she has no access to any money unless she asks you. Sounds harsh, but you can tell her that until you are confident that none of the money goes to OM this is the way it's going to be. Show her you will not accept cake eating.

Phil,

You've got two impressionable teenage daughters who are watching their mother carry on an affair. You can fool yourself into believing they don't know but, they do.

You want them to grow up thinking that's OK?

Expose this thing and end it....today.

Phil,

WOW

This is so amazing as to be terrifying. Read my story on JFO:

-- I've been married 19 years
-- I have teenage daughters who are watching this
-- my W worked at a school and had/has an A with the janitor
-- wife just started new job after 20 years as SAHM
-- she is having secret contact and lying to me
-- trying to figure out TODAY if I can do an in-house Plan B. That's why I looked at your post.

This is amazing.

Here are the differences:

1. I totally blew up the affair on D-day -- pastor, mother, sisters, cousins, OM's W, made her quit the school job, threw her out of the house.

2. OM is in physical terror of me, cried the few times we got on the phone.

So I thought I had a willing recovery partner, then I found out she had been calling him (3 times in a month)and arranged to "bump into" each other last week. (she did tell me immediately but said it was a chance meeting and she got "closure")

Counseled with Jenn H last night and got the whole program -- eliminating her easy ways of contacting him, ENs, LBs, etc etc.

I told her and I told my W I don't have the gas anymore.

Trying to figure out where that leaves me.

My advice to you:

1. Realize you are in an intolerable situation.

2. What does your wife fear? It is more important to stop contact then it is to worry about upsetting her at this point. I quite happily threatened to go for custody, to throw her out (did for a few days), to file a public divorce with the details of the affair, etc.

That got a promise (oh well) of no contact, it got us into counseling, it got her to quit her job.

That and the exposure gave me the ability to at least go forward with some hope.

I know you are scared of losing her, but at what point does that tip to your intolerance for the situation (not a rhetorical question, I'm there too :-( )

You might be surprised at the reaction you get by getting tough.

Here are some thoughts --

-- don't know about the UK, but a guy that threatens violence agaisnt a child's parent would be fired immediately here. Do you do that? Maybe it is a gun better waved than fired. Maybe that threat gets the WW to quit the school stuff, or gets the OM to stop contact.

-- again don't know about the UK, but I know my W has a lot of fear of a public document memorializing her infidelity (with details). When I waved that she acceded to my demand and moved out.

-- What the OM did with you in threats is a crime in the US. Go talk to the police or a lawyer, even if you don't do anything right away. He may think with his fists, but he may reconsider if a judge has specifically told him that in this case he will be going to jail if he does.

-- if you are afraid of being the tough guy, maybe a lawyer can for you?

Jezz, keep me posted I feel like you are my twin...

Thanks ML for your reply.

Basically, no. It was exposed on D Day to my BIL and SIL and one of our close friends. Since then one of her aunts knows and one of her cousins. That's the only family who know. My Mother and Father passed 23 and 22 years ago respectively. They would be turning in their graves for sure. Her Mother passed last year and was a factor in this sitch. There are many more people who know what's going on but not in the way of being exposed to it. She has told a number of people or they know anyway. I.E. His boss, one of the teachers, her 'friends' on the parent assoc., more of her close friends. It's like she's proud of what she's been up to, all so titillating.

Her father does not know. He knows something was up last year when things were very tense, but not what. I have no siblings or close family local. My FOO is quite something else, I have 3 half brothers I didn't know I had, until I was in my early 20s. I was adopted and didn't find out for sure until I was 20. It's a long story!!!

Wow, LA what a long post! So much to say, but my W will be back from work in about 15 mins so can't reply in full now. It's very much appreciated Maybe when I get in from work tonight, I'll have a go.

Yes I handle all the bills credit cards etc. Unfortunately, due to what has been going on I haven't felt like going to work and I'm self-employed. If my butt's not in the seat of my cab, then I'm not earning. This coupled with a severe down-turn in work means we are going overdrawn in our account each month. Even if we used all of her salary to top up, it would still not be enough. I have ideas but no time to post at the mo, she'll be home soon. Thanks for your reply anyway.