Ding...ding...ding...

No more calls...we have a winner.


Told ya this wasn't about revenge.

It was about gettin some like their WS did.


committed

I meant it as having not yet been divorced and having atleast a partial hope of salvaging the mairrage.

But again, every situation is diferant.

A BS may have an affair for reasons other than revenge. But if they justify it as "you did it too" then I would personally consider it in the classification of a Revenge affair.

Thats just my opinion.

I once knew a lady who had what she called a revenge affair.

Her H preferred satisfying himself with porn and masturbation rather than making love to her. After years of feeling like a zero, she went out and found a man. She felt justified. I personally think both she and her H were unfaithful waywards who cheated. I don't think she was right to cheat because he went outside the marriage looking for fulfillment.

Either one of them could have chosen to divorce first, then pursue all the porn or OM they wanted (disgusting as that would have been.)

Instead they BOTH chose to make death blows to their marriage over and over. Both felt justified. Their children suffered and still do, because neither parent was mature enough to step up and say "I choose to live right regardless of my crummy spouse."

Very, very sad.

Afternote: They are divorced now, and when asked, BOTH of them claim their marriage ended due to the other's sexual sin.

Gack,

Just curious, what is your status now? From what I have read, you are a BH, wife is home and you two are working toward recovery.

Stop me if I am wrong.

So do you get to hold on to a "free piece of strange" card forever? That is what I am reading, as long as she did it first, you can always pull out your card.

That is correct.

Negative.

I would not do that. I am not that type of person. Nor would I condone such action by a BS. Understand it, sure, condone it, no. Do it myself, no.

I simply have no sympathy for a WS or FWS who later becomes the victom of an affair.

(at this time, but I am so bairly in recovery. My opinion may change later)

Dude,

So the RA chick.., you still with her?

If not, how does she feel about "boosting your ego"? Did it all end well and she walked away with a smile on her face, relishing the short time she had with you, knowing how damned lucky she was to be in your company.

Or was there some heart-break and grief involved.

If there was, then I guess we would have to classify you as a WH-a$$h0le when we read this

""When a woman falls for you in such a short period of time, yes, you can shake off the effects of the A a lot easier.""

All about you, correct?

Sorry, but you sound just like a heartless plick.

The way you brag about your RA, I think you are in "RA fog"

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are glad you did it and seem to be recommending it to the group?

And the single woman, that fell for you in such a short period of time? How's she doing?

Anyway, old buddy, me thinks if you lie down with the dogs, you get up with fleas, or stds, or worse. Down and dirty with the pigs, yet feeling GREAT about the whole experience.

IMHO

kirk

I couldn't imagine ever wanting to inflict the same pain that was inflicted on myself during my H's A. I wouldn't wish that kind of hurt on ANYONE.

Returning evil for evil is poisoning yourself.

As I said earlier

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Krazy - how could I forget - you run the world. Cheating is not a religious issue, even though "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" is banned form city, county, and other government facilities because it's a RELIGIOUS issue!

Krazy - you picked a great name - dancing on that proselyting atheist head of a pin like a mad hatter, you are!

Nuf said.
One point of clarification - no TWO - I AM NOT NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN A WAYWARD!!!!!

Second, the measure of INTENTION in affairs vs. revenge affairs. Yes, you are right - there is intentional infliction of harm by the affairees - but in their minds, only if they get caught. There is NO MORAL COMPASS in these people. They cheat. They think they can get away with it. Most of the time without malice or forethought. That's the whole problem - THEY WEREN'T THINKING! Nobody just accidentally falls into an affair. That's not in any way shape or form what I said. I said they weren't thinking of the consequences - the hurt, the devastation to the family, the financial fall out. They are thinking with that lower brain that only wants to FEEEEEEEEL Good. Live for today.

On the other hand, a revenge affair, by it's nature IS PREMEDITATED!!!! Yes - I'm sure Dude and Introvert both turned their brains off to do what they did. But they both give themselves license to mess with another woman's body and heart to build their own egos back together - and shortcuts only make things worse in this regard. Look at Introvert's posts - she can just take his bad-*ss attitude or she can blow the marriage. He doesn't give a rip. Sounds like a wayward brain to me!

Slippery slopes exist - I watch them get stepped on all the time at work - starting with subtle humor, then flirting. then lunch. People who step right into sex call it rape! An affair is mutual seduction and it never happens if one person of the two has healthy enough boundaries to avoid slippery slopes.

I'm not making excuses for waywards - none of them but you sir ARE!!!!. Those waywards are DUDE and INTROVERT. And sounds like you'd like that license yourself.

NOBODY is excused in cheating! I won't contribute to Dude and Introvert's delusions that what they did is less vile than what their wives did. In many ways, it's worse - premeditated will get the death penalty when it comes to murder charges. While crime of passion might get 5 to life. BIG DIFFERENCE LEGALLY!!!

Yes intro a few months back DH experienced a new DDay with new info on my A. I shouldnt have lied to begin with I was wrong. Over the last few months of coming back to MB I have been learning and talking to several people from here. They have helped me in more ways then I can thank them. I was wrong to have lied and/or not share the full story of my A. If you click on my posts I believe the second one states My Story. The one I have in recovery is my growth after giving my DH something of the Joseph Letter that he requested.

I do not think I am high and mighty. Only when it comes to my job at work!!! I am learning MB ways daily and we are following them at home in our lives and in our M.

I tell others what I feel is needing to be said just like when people were trying to get KMS to tell you the full truth a few weeks back I told her to tell her the truth because lies will not accomplish anything. That was and is nothing but the truth from what I have learned.

I have yet to preach on MB about anything. And all I stated was that RA's are equal to A's and they do not trump over each other. Because that is the truth as I see it. Your view is different and we all believe in what we believe intro. I am not seeking to be put high above, I am not seeking any wrongs. What I am seeking is growth in my M, and growth in myself. And this is a place for that support.

First off KaylaAndy....religion is not everyone's cup of tea.  If Krazy is not into religion...so be it.  You aren't going to change anyone's mind by preachin...just so you know.

Secondly...I think you must have me mixed up with someone else, because you seem to think that my WW did not premeditate her affair......WRONG!!!!!    4 months of lying and sneaking around, not to mention hiding the evidence = premeditation....just so you know.

And third...you act like the original affair was a "crime of passion", but the revenge affair isn't?  Are you friggin' kidding me?  After all that you should have learned about the mental damage an affair causes to the BS and you are saying that there is no "passion" involved in the RA?  You need to go back and watch Dr. Harley's infidelity video again, because you really need to freshen up on the part where he compares adultery to rape, murder, etc....you are completely off base with your own take on this. 

Trust me...there may not have been passion between me and OW, but there sure as f$ck was passion inside my head when I did the whole 2 hours of "premeditated" planning for the ONS.

I will agree that nobody is excused from cheating....not sure where you read me saying that.

As far as your "delusional" premeditated argument....I'll give a the definition here so you can read up on the word....

Premeditated
1. adjective done deliberately; planned in advance: a premeditated murder.  (Exactly whay my wife did for 4 months)
2.  to meditate, consider, or plan beforehand: to premeditate a murder.  (Once again....WW's 4 month ordeal)
3.  To plan, arrange, or plot (a crime, for example) in advance. (oh...what do we have here...another perfect example of WW's affair)

I could go on for another 7 examples, but I won't.You are very confused and I hope you take my advice and do some more reading......and watch the video again.


I do find it quite ammusing that someone who has this in her sig...."My husband and I have the best working POJA in the world - I'm always right - because I am - and he's easy to please - no difficulty at all."...feels the need to not only say she's always right with her husband, but needs to pull that crap with strangers too.....you are not always right with him nor are you right now........not about me anyway.

Do your homework lady.

Im sorry you feel that way intro.. want a cookie? Doing you a favor

I've kept out of this debate so far. I have agreed with every word that KeepitReal, Krusht and Committed have said.

My H didn't have an RA. For him, that would be unthinkable. Yes, I know I'm speaking for him here but I know him very well.

He wouldn't have an RA because:

1. He has morals, standards and boundaries
2. He didn't want to hurt me after my A, he wanted us to recover
3. He would never put another person (the "R" OW) through hurt just to satisfy some sort of revenge.

You know my H gained back his self esteem and knew he "still had it" by focussing on us and how we, as a couple, were going to get through the fallout from my A. We concentrated on regaining OUR intimacy and OUR SF.

It's interesting that it's the younger men who think RA's are justified. Maybe it's a maturity thing.

MEDC, you say it's understandable to have an RA. My H was brought to his knees by my A but he would never have considered an RA because of his morals and his boundaries.

I've been so tempted to be sarcastic and say, wow, at last I can justify my A. I can say it was "understandable" because of whatever stupid reason I, or anyone else, can think up.

Baloney


Come on, you can't really believe this. NO ONE that isn't thinking of the consequences of their actions would take steps to HIDE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. It is the same with criminal acts.




Ah, thank you. EVERY affair with the exception of a drunken one night stand is premeditated. You are sooooo very wrong about which would warrant the death penalty. The affair by the BS could EASILY be argued to be an emotional reaction to a traumatic event. The FIRST affair is the one that would have aggravating and not mitigating circumstances.
Go back to my example of the drunk driver and enraged father.

Yes, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE legally....but in this case, you are way off base.

Dud and Introvert are dead wrong for what they have done...make no mistake about it. They do NOT seem to fall into the category of those that are responding to their hurt. BUT, as we know, affairs are very traumatic...and I do not know how bad they may truly be wounded.

Well, that is not exactly what I said....but close enough for SOME affairs. SOME people have a real and serious psychological injury that causes them to act out in ways that they never would have.


Good. I KNOW that his morals and boundaries are what prevents that. See, anyone that has an affair...ABSENT THE DAMAGE THAT I SPOKE OF...lacks morals.


First off, you had AFFAIRS. Not one...but two. YOU KNEW what you were doing and yet you intentionally inflicted harm on your husband...TWICE. Really, if your husband lost it mentally and emotionally after that, I would not fault him if he had an affair. You raped him twice....the second time after convincing him you would never do it again. Pathetic. If your husband "snapped" it would certainly be understandable.

I am glad to hear that a FWS thinks that PTSD and other damage inflicted by callous and insensitive morally bereft fools is a stupid reason.

I truly wonder when your next affair will be. Or did you grow some morals?

Introvert. I think your post is great.

I will add that KA is usually very fair. She does come at things from a religious perspective...but you are right...it is not everyone's cup of tea.

YOU are absolutely right about the premeditated issue. KA is way off base here.

There are many explanations and reasons (and even “mitigating circumstances”) why people commit all types of sins and/or crimes in life…but IMO those explanations/reasons/traumatic events can NEVER be used as an excuse or justification to commit those sins…

For example, an adult who come from an alcoholic home and was physically/mentally/verbally abused in the process can’t use that as an excuse to be an alcoholic him/herself and abuse other people/their children (even if the trauma as child has caused mental/psychological injuries). And the same way, an adult who had been sexually molested and/or raped as a child can’t use that as an excuse to molest other children and/or acting out in an inappropriate way sexually as an adult by being promiscuous etc. (even if the sexual trauma has altered his/her brain chemistry and caused mental/psychological injuries). And in the same way, just as a WS can’t use previous neglect and/or abuse from the BS (or whatever other “reasons” to “explain” the A) as and excuse/justification for an A, the BS can’t use the WS’s A to justify having an A him/herself either… It is as simple as that.

I’ve been through extremely traumatic events in life myself (sexual rape and molestation as a child that resulted in certain mental/psychological injuries that went untreated for the most part of my adult life), but I can’t use those as an excuse/justification or even “mitigating circumstance” for wrong choices and sins I’ve made in life.

I actually agree with you. It isn't JUSTIFYING the acts...it is understanding them in context with other life events.

I certainly UNDERSTAND why an abused spouse turns to another man/woman. I do not agree with it...but I understand it.

"I think waywards don’t like RAs because it PROVES that they(secondary betrayed) have no direct responsibility for the RA and hence the original BS had no responsibility for the original A. This crushes their BLAME GAME they espouse."

I think if the WS is fogged enough they can very easily convince themselves the BS was 100% responsible for the orginal adultery AND the RA too.

I had a very brief RA once, confessed and stopped it ASAP, tried to talk to my WH about why it happened and what we both needed to do to ensure neither of us strayed again... I did not use his adulteries to excuse mine - I took responsibility for what I did. WH claimed he didn't care but then used my RA to pretend his serial adultery was just RA's (um totally ignoring the fact that mine was a RA, my stupid reaction to his adulteries).
Some people just refuse to take responsibility for their actions - period.

RA's may be more understandable, and may be more easily justified than the original adultery, but they don't solve anything. I agree with what MEDC said about PTSD maybe being a factor too. When you're put into a position of reacting to something as devastating as adultery, and your adulterous spouse is acting as if they detest you and adore the OP, it's not at all surprising IMHO that RA's happen.

It seems a lot of people in our society don't really think there is anything wrong with a RA. Several of my friends and relatives tried to set me up with dates before my divorce was final - even some Christians friends/relatives! In their opinion there would have been nothing wrong with me starting a relationship with a new man before I was divorced simply because my WH was involved with the OW.

And while my X-in-laws persisted in ignoring the fact that my one A was a RA (no excuse for it I know), they apparently have no problem with blaming me for all my XWH's adulteries, even the ones he had before my RA, and even the one he had decades later. I have to wonder though what revenge he was supposedly entitled to take out on our innocent daughters? His adultery, the divorce, and the break-up of our family was something they had no choice in, which affected them. Ah - but they probably blame all that on me too. And what better way to inflict pain on a parent than to have to see somebody harm your children? So I guess that was all just part of the 'revenge' against me too?

At some point wouldn't there be a realization that revenge doesn't even make the the avenger feel better (let alone be a 'solution' that takes the whole family's well-being into account)?

I also suspect some people don't really believe there is anything wrong with adultery in general... depending on who the BS is (of course nobody wants to be the BS, or for a close relative or friend to be the BS). The pc buzzword is 'supporting' whatever your friend wants remember? So if your best friend or close relative, or yourself, is the adulterer, then adultery is OK. But if you, your best friend, or close relative is the BS, then the WS has done something mean.
This seems to be a very prevalent attitude in our society - that it's not so much WHAT is being done, but by WHOM, or to WHOM.

I don't think you could even get most people to state whether or not they believe adultery, or RA's, are right or wrong; they'd say: "it depends on the situtation"... and that translates to:
"who is doing it and why?". Basically they want to hear the fog-babble-justifications so they can be provided with a good enough excuse to endorse the adultery. They aren't even attempting to decide whether or not adultery is right or wrong. They only care about which person (WS? BS? OP?) they are allied with. This type of 'supporting' is the opposite of helping their friend/relative be accountable. They not only 'support' whatever behavior is chosen but will 'support' their friend/relative avoiding any and all responsibility and 'blame' too.

MEDC, for years I tried to “understand” why I developed an inappropriate emotional connection with another man. I knew the involvement was very out of character for me, so in my quest for answers and self understanding, I discovered that I unconsciously used the XOM as a “father figure” (the XOM was much older than me) to replace the void and pain I still had because of the abuse and non-connection with my father. I also learned how my mental/psychological injuries contributed to my “out of character behavior” at the time. Unfortunately, with all these understanding, reasons and explanations, it became too easy for me to start blaming all my wrong and “out of character” behavior on those things alone. I also struggled with severe guilt during and after my EA, so that type of thinking also helped to relieve the guilt and gave me a “victim mentality”. True healing only came when I shed off the victim mentality and start realizing I was 100% responsible for my wrong choices in spite of anything that happened in my past.

Compassion, empathy and understanding for other people’s pain is wonderful, but the line between explaining/understanding a wrong action and justifying it can be very thin… If I would say to a person out of empathy and compassion: “I can understand why you did this sin/wrong action” it can be very easy for that person to interpret it in such a way in their own mind that he/she may feel/think it was a justified reason/explanation for the wrong behavior.

Interesting point. When I discussed her A in the past, my FWW has always suggested that she never considered the consequences of her actions, but yet she did ensure that her A remained hidden for 2 years.

After reading your post, I was curious enough to ask her about that again this morning - her response was that she took steps to hide what she was doing just because she knew it was wrong, not because she considered the consequences. She did not want to consider the consequences because of the "good feelings" that she was experiencing.