without attacking at all, I do not agree with this. There have been other issues that have spoken to your character post affair as well. You know what I am speaking of and to me, it really comes down to an issue of character. I think when we dig deep down with most WS, it is easy to see many character flaws that help explain away their actions.

I am not trying to attack you at all...I know this has been and will continue to be a bone I pick with you. I am just merely pointing out that I see things a bit differently.

that makes zero sense.

MEDC - I guess my communication skills are not up to their usual clarity.

My comment about religion was counter to Krazy's constant drum beat of anti-religion.

My comparison about degree of intent to premeditation stands, but not well communicated. My thesis comes from a psychological background. The degree of forethought in the initial affair is of the mind to conceal, not to wound. On the contrast, the revenge affair is with no such intention. There is an in-your-face attitude that introvert exudes in his posts. No acknowledgment that his affair has harmed the marriage more than it was already harmed. My guess is that he won't even get a clue when his wife quietly closes the door on their marriage one or two years from now.

There is a malice to his affair that his wife's didn't have. Psychologically speaking. Results speaking, both have malice. Does that make sense? There is a difference. Introvert will continue to have that malice that harms his marriage until he recognizes that he has done equal harm. He wants to claim that his affair would not have happened had hers not happened. So that makes it right? Good Grief!! How mature! His wife has a real piece of work on her hands, if he doesn't wear her down with his constant hatred and blame. SHE MADE HIM LOSE HIS INTEGRITY! As if! What a bunch of wayward FOG! That's like the primary wayward saying that she cheated because he didn't meet her emotional needs.

And Dude - he's following right along, doing the same thing. What kind of marriage can either of them have?

Both have to lay down their arms - husbands and wives. and recognize that keeping score creates TWO losers. There are no winners in a MARRIAGE unless both win. There cannot be a win-lose.

Malice does not belong in a marriage. You might counter neither does cheating. But we must stop with the she hurt me so I have license to hurt back mentality.

I remember Robertswife who had an EA - he didn't have a revenge affair. Yet. But he abuses her physically and sexually and mentally. I don't know how long it will take, but eventually, she will walk away from the marriage. His abuse is a form of infidelity when you think about it. And it's revenge infidelity, to him. Doesn't matter if he was a heel before she had the EA. Now he has a reason. Justification....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Who has harmed the marriage more? To a degree this discussion is useless. It attempts to attach more blame to one than the other. This approach WILL NOT HEAL A MARRIAGE!

I don't know if I've done any better at communicating this time around. My biggest point is that Dude and Introvert have NO CHANCE of recovering their marriages so long as they want to measure harm. THEY HAVE DONE HARM. THEY HAVE NO REMORSE. This does not heal a marriage!!!

I think trying to make "sense" of an active WS's thought processes particularly wrt decision-making is probably an exercise in futility for the most part. "Sense" is something you'd associate with rational thinking. Someone who risks job, family and basically their life over a "good feeling" is not thinking rationally IMO.

A BS's RA is just as premeditated as the WS's PA.

Both kept their thoughts, rationalization, justification, compartmentalization process hidden, a secret from their spouse.

The WS found a way to justify their PA.

The BS found a way to justify their RA.

They both sunk as low as one could.

Thanks for pointing out the PTSD angle MEDC.

I would venture to guess that many RA's are a result of PTSD. Considering that the betrayal has been likened to rape it is no surprise that a BS sufferes from PTSD.

I know my IC stated that I suffered from it.

It doesn't make the RA acceptable but it certainly make it understandable!

MEDC, like every other member on this board, you’re certainly entitled to a different view/opinion and I have no problem with that since someone’s opinion about something doesn't make it true. I’ve just always find it very inconsistent and interesting how you’ve never kept “picking a bone” with a member on these boards (a FWH who was previously involved in a sexual A) on the same subject.

I'm not trying to make waves.

If PTSD can be a mitigating factor in a RA, is it a mitigating factor in the original A? (Not excusing, just helping the rationalization.)

I guess I would venture that the answer would be no. At least, for me it is no. I suffered with PTSD but at no point did I nor would I ever say that it should mitigate my A.

It was a choice, just like a RA would be a choice. Is one worse than the other, IMHO no. Both are horribly wrong and anyone that says otherwise should be smacked.

And because I know people will look at this and say well of course, she's a FWS I'll also put it out there that I think that anyone who says they didn't plan their A, it just happened, should also be smacked. It might not have been in your life plan (at least it was not in my life plan) but once you started down that road you planned for it. (Another topic, another day I know but I didn't want anyone to think that I soft on WS.)

You know what? I'm a little confused about how someone like yourself can just walk in here (so to speak) and start pointing fingers at people and accuse them of being a "wayward in the making".

**EDIT**

I am always open to advice and 2x4's from people, but to have someone point a finger at me and say "wayward" is complete **EDIT**

not mean that you have a handle on what my mindset is.


**EDIT**

I had a RA and I am 100% responsible for the ONS.

I do not blaim my WW for my decision to have a ONS.

I do not however, seem to have much remorse about the ONS, because I went through 7 years of dealing with a very jealous W just to have her cheat on me. Call me immature if you want, but it is what it is...for now...I'm trying to deal with this issue.

I am not currently a wayward!!!!!!!!...I am a BH/WH, but have NC with OW (don't even know her), account for where I am 24/7, and WW/BW has all access to every bit of information I have (cell phone, email,etc...)

Fair enough?




I feel inclined to add that...for being a Psychology expert you sure seem to have a way of not communicating very clearly and seem to judge people very quickly (from only a few posts on an internet forum). Not sure how many reputable psychologists would do such a thing, but your the first one I've seen :RollieEyes:



Let me clear up the "premeditation" vs "passion" thing for you when it comes to my situation.......

WW had "passion" for OM, that much I'm sure we will all agree on. That is between her and OM. Between her and I (which the issue of premeditation is about) regarding her affair, she had "premeditated" everything she did...from hiding evidence, lying about her whereabouts (before going to see him, and after), hiding her cell phone records, etc...(I could go on forever).

Myself, in regards to my ONS...I had "premeditated" a ONS with OW by going online and finding someone to meet up with for sex(that is obvious). But, between my WW and I...what I did to her was 100% "passion" caused (in part) by being mentally abused for 4 months by her.


So, to sum both affairs up in a nutshell and whether they were "premeditated" or about "passion", here it is in simple form so you can understand it...

WW's relationship with OM = passion.
WW's abuse toward me during her affair = premeditated.

My relationship with OW = premeditated
My abuse toward my BW = passion.



Got it?

Good.



As much as the advice around here is welcomed by myself, I do realize that 99% of it is given by people who have a bias opinion of other people's situations (myself included). I mean if everyone here were experts on how to avoid affairs we wouldn't even be here. In essence, the only people on this Earth that should be considered experts on infidelity are married people who have never had to endure it's wrath...which no one in this forum is...so I do take the comments with a grain of salt. I only get pissed when the finger pointing starts, because there is NOBODY in this forum that has the right....we all have our own messes to clean up before we can do that.

There's my rant for the day.

edit:

I must ask why is it that I get edited when but someone else can call me "immature" with no consequence? What's that all about?

Excellent post Suzet.

You sound like my wife. She was also raped as a child and sexually abused by her father. She acted out sexually with terrible self abuse and promiscuity.

She never once used it as an excuse, she owned what she did.

Because I could UNDERSTAND, as MEDC pointed out, we have healed. I still don't excuse her behavior but I UNDERSTAND.

Years ago, a man shot a child molestor that had molested his son. He committed this shooting in the courthouse. It was 100% premeditated. He planned it out flawlessly. I don't condone what he did but I can certainly understand it.

Interesting point at least to me. I've been accused of having an A because I don't have a piece of paper that says I'm divorced. I probably won't have it for a while (found out OW wants to change her DD's name to Wstbx's so they will all have the same name when they are married - of course OWH won't allow it so as long as this battle ensues, Wstbx won't file). OTOH, there are difference in my country - the main one being that the actual divorce is not what you contest in court about. That would be the separation agreement and that's the one that divides everything up and states custody & visitation. The divorce is obtained by filling out a form, sending it in with money and waiting for it to come in the mail. The only reason anyone needs a divorce is to obtain a license to remarry. So while others on this board consider me to be still married, I don't see how some underpaid clerk at city hall could have almighty powers to determine my morality. Perhaps I'm not divorced but I'm not married either. (incidentally, WstbxH and OW are recognized by all legal systems here as common law spouses so if she's his wife, then how can I possibly be?)

And if you include me as being a WBS (wayward betrayed spouse), how come I don't taste the sweet nectar of revenge? (A) because I'm not cheating and (B) I'm just getting on with my life and it's not exciting, satisfying, thrilling, fulfilling or whatever it is A's are supposed to be - it's actually quite scarey.

Yep. But most likely they'll just call us whiney BS's that would do better to start meeting their ENs because it's our own fault they had the A in the first place - or whatever fogbabble spews from their mouth at the time.









[/quote]

I think this is either lying to herself (less likely) or lying to you on this. She considered the consequences. I would guess first off, she discounted the costs because she assumed you would never catch her. Second, she valued the thrill of the A more than anything else.

Sorry, this just sounds like one of those neatly packaged responses that one might say to placate a BS. It establishes she "knew" what she did was wrong (BS feels better), and avoids saying that the WS thought the BS was not capable of detecting their A and the WS had decided the A was worth more than the BS or the M (two things a BS does not want to hear).

WS's hide it because they know its the only way to get the BS to keep meeting some of their EN's. They like having two people meet their EN's. They believe they are entitled to this and they have an A as a strategy to accomplish this. They are okay with the strategy because they think they will not get caught and have reconciled that they are okay with the consequences in the unlikely event they do get caught.

I don't say this to sound harsh. I realize people go through a lot of levels of emotion on this, but in the end, I tend to think this is the decision process.

I understand what you all are saying, but I have too many options.(I know, sounds cocky) This is the greatest catch-22 I’ve ever been in. I love my wife, think of all the good times together, then mix in a LTA and I’m like WTF am I doing here? So, if the RA made it more tolerable for me to be in this catch-22 than so be it. I promised myself I’d go 6 months and see how I felt then. At that point, I’ll have to make a decision. I’m not living in catch-22 hell indefinitely. I’ll walk!!! I’ve noticed there is not too many on this forum who told their WS to FO and walked. That gives me hope they recovered much faster!!!

Can I be the first to ???

My guess is any of these "options" that are vying after a MM that is clearly in pain, probably aren't "good" options anyways. Not probably-- just ARE NOT good options. Where are YOUR standards?

Why wait 6 months, Dude? From your posts and your "approach" (or lackthereof) you seem to be headed straight for D anyways. I am still in disbelief that you seriously sent your W and kids away for 6 weeks as "punishment" after her A.

I don't think your WW is the only one that needs an attitude adjustment here. You seem to be a tad bit too big for your britches...

E.

ETA: And I don't mean "too big for your britches" in any sort of "manly" or "good" way... haha. I just realized that could totally be taken as a "good" thing...

Maybe so, but there aren’t too many “old timers” here that initiated Plan D w/ a FWS so this gives me hope they recovered the quickest!!

How do you know they didnt inistiate Plan D with WS? And how do you know how fast they recovered?

some have recovered pretty quickly some are still growing.

You can not rush recoverey Dude. Each couple moves at different paces. If you rush into something it might be the road to nowhere land.

Actually there are a number of divorced and divorcing BS's here including old timers. That's got to be significant since this is a "marriage" building site and since divorcees have no marriage left to build, many wouldn't hang around.

Though I'm on a different road than you, I can clearly see that there can be no marital recovery without personal recovery. That, my friend, takes it's own sweet time whether you like it or not.

It's official, I'm confused.

What is the current subject of this thread?

Summary for Gack1:

OP (Dude) wants to know why his MC thinks his RA is worse than the primary A

Pages of why it is either (a) justifiable (b) understandable (c) more intentional or not any of the above

A few more pages of what defines an RA

Interjections here and there of the OP justifying his RA and even deciding that it wasn't revenge after all but an ego boost

So take your pick. It's Dude's thread and I think he has issues with himself regarding having an RA in the first place that he's trying to resolve. No easy task on top of the regular BS BS.

Ok, gotcha, thanks.

To Dude.

Your RA was wrong. I have no sempathy for your WW in reguards to your RA. That doesn't change the fact that having a RA was not the morraly correct thing to do.

As far as your mairrage counsaler harping on your RA. By having the RA you lost the morral high ground. In your attempt to level the field, you did just that. You brought yourself down to your WW level. Every descision you make in life has rewards and consaquences. One of the consequences of your RA/ONS is your MC making it a big deal.

If you would like to get the morral high ground back, I would suggest to you what I would suggest to anyone who has had an affair and wishes to fix or remove consaquences of there actions.

Build a time machine and undo what you have done.

If quantum physics is not your strong suite, then I would suggest you deal with the consequnces of your actions as best you can.

Forgive me. I do not know you, nor do I know the details of your situation. (and I am being a bit sarcastic) This is simply my opinion of what I know of it. I mean no disrespect, and may indeed have a twisted view of what is actually going on.

But to awnser your original question..
No, your RA/ONS does not trump your WW original affair. It just adds more problems to the situation.


Question?

Do you want to recover you M?