First time poster here, looking for some help. I’ve been lurking on these boards for about a year now although have not posted until now (didn't even have the guts to register until recently). What I’ve read and learned here has saved my marriage, without a doubt. I thank all of you more than I can say.

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I know this forum gets the most traffic!

I am now in a difficult situation that I just don’t know what to do about. It’s my Mom and Dad. They are about 70 years old, they both recently retired, about 3 years ago. They were both teachers (Mom – elementary, Dad – college professor, he is also an ordained pastor) and moved from their small-ish hometown to a much larger city where my sister and I live. They moved here mainly to be near our families.

I don’t believe there has been infidelity in their relationship, at least in the classic sense – I’ll explain that more. The problem is Dad. He is an incredibly intelligent man, who has used his intellect over the years to be quite cunning and manipulative, most especially of Mom. It took me many years to recognize and realize this, and for the last several years I have limited my contact with him as much as possible. The hard part is as his manipulation has developed into controlling tendencies, it has really hurt my relationship with my Mom. Which makes me angry beyond belief.

My Mom has confided in me over the years about his behavior, and in my sister as well. I have seen his behavior escalate over the years, from manipulative to controlling. It all came to a head yesterday as my Mom’s best friend called both my sister and I out of the blue as she was terribly concerned about my Mom and I learned a lot more details about what Mom had confided in BF that she hadn’t told me. Whenever Mom would confide in me (or my sister), she always felt terribly guilty, but often didn’t feel like she had anywhere else to turn. She didn’t want to turn us against Dad. But I didn’t realize a lot of things were happening or so consistent until the three of us compared stories. I feel so horribly guilty and awful for not knowing or for not realizing things were so bad. Although Dad has not ever hit, punched, or slapped her, he has done other things. Things like thrown things against the wall in anger while fighting with her, screamed and yelled excessive profanities at her for over 30 minutes, expressly blamed her that he did not get to follow his dreams in life, told her he never loved her, that he hates her. He has demanded SF even though she didn’t want to. He controls her access to phone calls from me, my sister, and her BF. He has pinched her. Once when she complained about a stop he was going to make to visit a previous student, he made her sit in the front seat of the car and told her she could not leave and if he found out that she moved or used her cell phone, he would leave her by the side of the road. At least he let her roll down the windows on a 90+ degree day – small kindness on his part LOL. He makes belittling remarks about her in front of others and when I or others call him on it, he can explain it away to justify it in his mind.

As I said I don’t believe there has been any infidelity in the classic sense. But Dad has always needed to Be Needed. Not sure exactly what EN that is, but he has had that EN filled by others outside his marriage. Like a student who is going through a crisis at school – rape or abusive boyfriend or somebody. Or a colleague who is having some kind of problem. We always had a stream of people coming and going when I was growing up who needed Dad’s help and support – he couldn’t not help them of course! And Mom or me or my sister were horrible people for even suggesting that someone in need shouldn’t be helped! So he got his ENs met by many others in various situations throughout their marriage – not by Mom. So not infidelity in the classic sense, but infidelity in that Mom was not his primary source. I hope that makes sense.

So now – why I am here for help. After the phone calls yesterday, I can’t sit here any longer and do nothing. Mom has admitted she is worn down and exhausted. When he screams and yells at her, she just sits there and takes it because it is easier. If she tries to fight back, he gets worse and worse and she “pays” for it later. I have been urging her for years to go to counseling, but she wont’. I think she is embarrassed that is in this situation – how horrible for her. My heart breaks for my poor mom – she was the best Mom ever.

I can’t do nothing anymore. But I don’t know what to do! I don’t think I can convince my Mom to leave. She’s 70 years old, she can’t drive anymore, and she’s scared. She doesn't want to admit to anyone that anything is wrong. If I thought I could, I would drive to her house and move her out and move her into my basement. My H is completely supportive of this – there is no love lost between my H and Dad. But Dad would know where to find her. And I know this is her decision – I can’t *make* her do anything, much as I would like to!

My sister wants to confront my Dad about his behavior. She has a little more experience with abusive relationships, not her own thank god but in a professional capacity – she works as a Victim’s Advocate for the State and she is a lawyer who has practiced family law for many years, served as guardian ad litem in many child abuse cases.

I don’t know if this will work, I don’t think either of us is equipped to handle this, not to mention our emotional involvement in the situation. My thought is if we are going to do something like this we need an impartial professional (psychologist, counselor, something like that) who can help and mediate. My sisters know some people professionally who she thinks she could ask for a recommendation, and could be prepped about the situation – we need the right person, because Mom and Dad have tried MC before and Dad is so cunning that he totally twisted the counselor around and manipulated him into believing there was nothing wrong or was able to intellectually justify his actions. My Dad’s skills at arguing and discussion got nothing on the politicians in Washington, believe me!

So, please please please help me save my Mom. Any recommendations for courses of action, books to read, resources, anything! MEDC - I put a special plea to you as I have read many posts from you in that you work in this field. What can I do?

It doesn't sound like this to me but just so that you have considered everything, is there any chance your father is in the early stages of Alzheimers? Often anger and rage are among the first signs. It sounds like he has been this way his whole life, but if there's any chance it has escalated over the past few years, it could be worth getting him checked out. It may facilitate moving him out of the house (into a care facility).

To strengthen your mother, will she read some books? The books by Patricia Evans are great, and so is Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft. Maybe if she sees how common abuse is, and that she's not the only one, and that there are ways to get out of it, she'll be more compliant if you do pull an intervention.

Don't expect it, though. The one thing victims do best is protect themselves by condemning themselves - if you confront her, out of fear she will likely defend her husband and choose him over you. Happens all the time.

Is there anyone else who can join you in this intervention? The only way I can imagine it working is if he saw that the entire family (and any of his friends you can get) are ready to say 'no more' and will do something if he doesn't. You need more people.

You might also find a shelter and take her there some time, to visualize what it would be like if she went, what kinds of precautions they take to protect the women.

Another thing, if you really want to rescue your mother, find a retirement home (not a nursing home, but a place where older people live so she can be around other women her own age) and move her there. Don't tell your father where she is. Abuse works because of fear. Women don't escape because they are afraid of the "what ifs". The only way to successfully escape an abuser is to literally run away and hide. Fortunately that is much easier in this day and age than it used to be. Unfortunately, your parents probably identify with the past more than they do the present and even your Mom may not want to do this. It's a tough situation.

Tabby,
That was my first thought also. He may have been verbally and emotionally abusive in the past but it may be Alzheimers that has sent him into a rage mode. Sadly this is very common in people with Alzheimers.

Thanks so much for these thoughts everyone. Input really helps!

As far as Alzheimer's - that's something I hadn't thought of. Its something to consider, and I will discuss it with my sister, to see what she thinks. To be fair, though, I really don't think that's it. He's been this way his whole life. I remember incidents while growing up, where he got irate at my Mom and I while we were traveling in Europe because we paid with the wrong currency (pre-Euro days) and he verbally berated both of us in the midst of a crowd. It was my fault - I was 12 and didn't know any better. But Mom took the blame for me. I still feel AWFUL about that - could start crying about now still more than 30 years later.

Thank you for the book suggestions - I just got back from the bookstore over my lunch hour and purchased "Why Does He Do That" and one of Patricia Evans' books. It will help me understand, if nothing else.

I don't know if I can get Mom to leave, at least permanently. My latest thought is to have a period of separation - I'll buy her a plane ticket to visit a friend out of state and she could stay for a month or a week or whatever. Just give her time to see what life would be like if she didn't live in constant worry about when Dad will go off next. And give Dad some time to not have someone to yell at, and maybe he will realize his behavior and change.

I guess that's my ultimate hope - is to find a way to get him to change. Intellectually, he has to know what he does is wrong - he's counselled (unofficially) so many students that have been in abusive relationships or been victims of sexual assault that he can tell those women what to do and how what has happened isn't right. But why can't he see that he's doing it???? I hope that we can find some way to open his eyes so he can change his behavior.

Is that even possible? I don't even know. Does anyone have any experience with any success stories?

If I could get her to consider leaving, she'd be most likely to either stay with me, or my sister owns several apartment buildings and might take an apartment in one of her buildings. I think the suggestion about finding her somewhere where there are other women her own age is great, though. I hadn't thought of that - she would be reluctant to come live with me because she wouldn't want to be a burden on me and my family (as if!!!) but with other people she could be friends with - another thing to consider. Thank you!!

Things have gotten so much worse in their relationship since they've retired - must be that they are spending so much more time together. I know Dad is really struggling with not being a productive, contributing part of society (in his mind). They moved away from where they lived for 40 years, so she lost her social support network there. And she can't drive/doesn't feel comfortable driving in this much larger city, so she is completely dependent on Dad for her mobility.

I just fear that they are so entwined with each other after so many years together (they were high school sweethearts) that I don't know how to disentangle them!

Thank you again for all the thoughts - please keep them coming!

This is going to be your biggest obstacle as back in those days, you simply didn't leave your husband regardless of how abusive he was. Whatever you do, you should have a really good talk with your mom first - it is possible she doesn't want to leave him. I know that's hard to take, but it may be the truth.

I would look into Alzheimers no matter how unlikely it may be. It may be an easier pill for both to swallow if it was a medical condition that separated them.

I guess that's my ultimate hope - is to find a way to get him to change

while hope is good it is completely unrealistic as a goal...

there is very little point in confronting him...

it will just start the hugest powerstruggle ever seen in your family...

the best is if your mother will leave...

action plans of safety...

can you visit your mom and take her to a shelter in which she can begin to get educated slowly and create a safety plan...

shelters work best with time on their side...they are equipped for crisis...but their strength and success are in long term well thought out plans......

take her weekly to a counselor...

I would leave dad out of the equasion...and focus all energy on your mom....and the creation of a safety plan....

it will take a long time for your mom to break down her own defense and rationalizations as to why she accepted such treatment for her whole life...

it is all she knows....

ARK

I started reading Why Does He Do That? last night. It was very eye-opening. I didn't get as far as I had hoped, but it has been very enlightening.

I fear you are all right - the best is to get my mom to leave. Despite them being 70 and me being almost 40, it is still hard to have your parents break up.

I keep hoping against hope there will be something to get him to change. I was hoping someone would be able to give me a success story where it has changed - sadly I think the picture is becoming clear that its highly unlikely.

The book has helped as it was written by a man who counseled abusive man, from an organization called Emerge.

I know Mom will never go to a shelter - she would be too afraid and wouldn't feel comfortable. I am hoping that I can get her to some counseling herself as a first step. Ark, I so believe you are right, I have to work on her first. Even if she won't go to a shelter, there are other options available for her if I can get her to leave.

I think my sister is hell bent on confronting him, though. Don't know, we'll see. That's her personality - to confront things head on. I fear a powerstruggle is right, but I can't control her, either. I can only do what I feel is best.

I am going to research Emerge today, see if hopefully there is a chapter where I live or if they might have a recommended counselor here. Does anyone have any experience with this organization?

you take her to a shelter not to stay....

but to get information and resources.....

YOU should go there to get info as well....they are loaded with resources....

ARK

Your mother is a grown woman, right? She is fully capable of making her own decisions. Have you spoken to her about this?

melody, you're right, of course, but after a lifetime of living with an abusive man, she is literally just a shell of an adult. If you haven't experienced it, you just have no idea how much is taken away from you, grain by grain, criticism by criticism. By the time you are 70, you are just on autopilot, with every single thought just on 'pleasing' your husband so as to avoid whatever else he will throw your way.

It literally consumes your life, that self-preservation. And by doing that, you become completely incapable of making a move on your own. And they evolve into a sick dance of give abuse/take abuse, and usually refuse to 'harm' their husband by going against his wishes, because their whole life has been about making sure he's happy (i.e., not hurting you).

That's why hardly any woman can leave such a situation on her own. And it almost never happens without some catastrophic event shoving the fact of the situation in her face so that she has to admit what's going on.

LaMariposa, is this the worst example you could think of? Why do you think a 40 year old woman would CRY about being berated when she was 12? Have you asked yourself why?

cat, perhaps, but I sort of doubt it. Even so, she is a grown woman who has a right to live anyway, anywhere she chooses. That is her prerogative and HER decision. They can't force her to do anything, so that is why the only thing they can do is speak to her and offer help. Then she can decide for herself if she wants to take it.

I have dealt with out of control, unruly parents and they cannot be forced to do anything barring a court order declaring them mentally incompetant.

Of course they can't force her to do anything. My point was that the mind of an abuse victim is 180 degrees away from that of a normal person. Their life is all about survival, minimizing stress. Every decision, every act. All about him.

If her daughter just came to her and said 'mom, I'd feel better if you lived somewhere away from dad so he can't hurt you any more' her mom, guaranteed, would just say 'honey, it's not that bad. I love your dad. He's a wonderful man. He's just misunderstood. I'm fine!' and drop the subject. And never leave, out of fear of angering him and getting even worse punishment.

She has to be approached in abuse terms, slowly, steadily, showing her more and more that she has other options, letting it sink in that there just may be a way for her to be happy, for once in her adult life. So that some day, when another episode comes, she's got enough knowledge in her head that when he yells or hits or corners or belittles, she finally snaps and says 'I don't have to take this any more' and leaves him.

Get your mom out of there if she is willing to come stay with you.

ASSUME that there has been physical abuse...just not admitted to yet.

Confront your father after she is gone.

Your dad is a real danger to your mom. If something happens to her and HE winds up being her caregiver...watch out!

I would suggest following your sisters lead here. She seems to know what to do. Show a unified front when dealing with this abuser.

Get one of your dads rants on tape. That would be priceless.

Do not ignore this....it is only going to get worse.

Protect your mom, then confront. In that order.

caperson, it seems we are reading an awful lot into this with half the facts. If my daughter came to me and said all that, I would say "mind your own damn business, dear." She is still an adult, mentally capable woman who has the right to self determination.

Abuse victims generally are not very capable when it comes to making decisions about their lives. They are suffering from repeated traumas and most likely will need help.

Thank you everyone!

Thanks for clarifying about the shelter - I had misunderstood taking her there as a place to live. I think that's a great idea about a place to find resources, for me and for her. I'm definitely on that.

I have not had a chance to speak with my mom about her leaving. As she has confided in me over the years I have always expressed my concern about the treatment, but I did not become aware of the extent of all of this until just the other day. If I had known I would have been much more active in urging her to leave or finding other ways to deal with it. My mom and dad are out of town right now dealing with the death of my grandmother (Dad's Mom) and the resulting estate. They will return to town next Tuesday, and I plan to see her and discuss this with her as soon as she returns -hopefully Tuesday night if they don't get back too late. If not, then Wednesday.

Yes, she is indeed a grown woman. And I can't *make* her do anything she doesn't want to. Melody Lane, you are very very right that this is her choice, and I have to be prepared to accept the fact that she, as a grown woman, has a right to make her own choices. At the same time, I believe she has lost perspective on the fact that "normal" relationships do not function like this. She focuses on getting through and enduring. I aim to see what I can do to change that perspective. Hopefully I can. I believe she needs to hear from a person outside their relationship that how my father treats her is wrong.

As a quick aside - I could cry now as a grown woman about that incident when I was a young child because I feel horrible and guilty about letting someone else take the blame for me and fighting my battles for me. I should have been able to stand up for myself at that point, instead I took the easy way out. And yes, I have thought long and hard about it. I was not and am not now proud of my behavior. I also know as a mother without a doubt I would do the same thing for my children without any hesitation or any second thoughts.

MEDC - thank you for your input on how to handle the situation. As I said previously I have read enough of your posts about working in these circumstances that I was hoping you would give your viewpoint. Given our family dynamics, I think if we do confront him, then my sister would be best to take the lead. she is more experienced in this than I, and she and my father relate better, he will probably more willing to listen to her than me. She and I are meeting today or tomorrow to plan our actions for when they return next week. I can't do anything until they are back.

May I ask - are you familiar with the Emerge program? Any experience? What would be your recommended treatment program, if any, for my father? Have you, in your experience, ever seen any successful behavior changes? I am trying to set my hopes and expectations for what may happen - or may not.

Thank you again.

You're looking at it from the perspective of a healthy woman who hasn't lived in fear and doubt her whole life. I agree that a normal, healthy woman would tell her kid to mind their own business. But abuse victims cannot do that. Their mind is nothing like a normal woman's mind. Every thought she has, especially after 50 years of this, centers around taking it first past the 'will this anger him?' filter.

Abuse works because it starts out very small, with a comment or a look. "You're wearing that?" Immediately, she doubts her judgment and thinks, wow, what was I thinking? He is now smarter than her in the getting dressed department. She remembers to check with him first on her clothing choice before she goes out with him.

Then she cuts her hair and he says "Why did you do that? Now you look like a hooker" and she remembers to always wear her hair the way he likes it, so she doesn't have to hear that again.

On and on, day after day, she learns what he will approve of, and what he won't, and she discards everything he doesn't like - friends, family, activities, jobs, until she is completely dependent on what pleases him.

And when she gets to that point, he changes the rules, so he can continue to have things to control her with. "I never said I liked jeans; why are you wearing jeans?" while she thinks 'but he said I was pretty in jeans...oh well, I must have heard him wrong; I'll throw them away.'

It's all about making her doubt herself and have NO faith in herself to make her own decisions.

It's not just a matter of mind your own business by that point. That kind of woman would probably look over her shoulder to make sure H isn't hearing it, so he doesn't yell at her later for 'making' his own kids hate him (everything is ALWAYS her fault), and then whisper, 'honey, please, I'm fine. How's your new job going?'

Sure, it's possible she and her sister are just imagining the abuse. But she's been avoiding her dad for just this reason for years. At this point, I'd be more willing to believe there IS something, than there isn't.

Mind you, I've seen the reverse happen, and I still believe in helping such people. My evil stepmother hated my aunt's husband and decided he wasn't treating her well enough (she was wheelchair bound with MS), so she called Protective Services and lied about him and had the courts throw him out of his own house. My aunt had to go live in her daughter's basement, since her husband wasn't around to help her any more. But I've also worked with abused women, and it's almost impossible to get them to leave the abuser; and if they do, most of the time they relent and go back to him. It's a sick mess, how they get so twisted up inside.