Ok, I'll bump it up to the top of the list. Thanks.

Maybe. Just guessing here, so I reserve the right to be wrong, LOL. Is he really enthusiastic, or is he resigned to the fact it's going to be that way?

You tell me he has (actually both of you have) $91K in debt. If it were me, I'd be enthusiastic about nothing that costs money or time away from earning.

Now as you said, it's a hole he dug. Yet you are his wife, so you are in the hole with him.

So while I'll trust you to make the final determination, I'd suspect that perhaps there is as much resignation that things are going to be the way they are on his part, as there is enthusiasm.

If you know his MO is to wait until the last minute and pay the most, do you really need to insist upon a trip. It seems to me, with 91K of debt, the last thing anyone needs to do is suggest a trip. Doesn't that either make the hole deeper, or delay the digging out of the hole?

I have to ask how sharing this builds up your marriage?

I'm going to ask what each of your actions say.

Do his actions say he's enthusiastic?

Do your actions say that you are not going to live with his negativity any more?

I'd say he's about as enthusiastic about these things as you are ready to walk out the door. I think in many ways, each of you are lying to yourselves and one another.

Your actions don't match your words.

He says he's enthusiastic, but he's not. You say you are fed up, but you still put up with it.

I'm not saying walk out today. I'm saying get real with where you are. You are fed up, but not enough to make any long term changes at this point. He's enthusiastic, but not about the trip, about saving some money on the trip, getting some peace, or whatever.

That's my opinion. I could be out to lunch. But I think you'll find aspects that match what's going on in your lives.

It wasn't that way with the trip, it's something that's really important to him, especially now that D17 is a senior, to take her on as many vacations as possible before she moves out. The only thing he wasn't enthusiastic about was the planning part. He wants to control everything because, as he puts it, he's afraid I'll mess something up.

But when you tie up that he procrastinates on everything, he has a chip on his shoulder about females telling him what to do because of his mother, and his general insecurities, he finds it hard to get around to making decisions. He spends 30 minutes in GNC - every month - making sure he's buying the right vitamins, even though there are only three types to choose from. So when I take steps to get something accomplished, because no one else is doing it, he gets upset. Once it's taken care of, such as the trip or paying his bills, he's fine with it. At least he says he is.

So, yes, he does feel that we control everything, while that's not the reality. And he feels outnumbered being the only male, and he feels that we often don't want him around. Which is true! I need to have one-on-one time with my daughter, and she needs it, too, and it drives him crazy. If I take her to piano lesson, he goes along. If I take her to the drugstore for makeup, he goes along. He insists on going with us to the pool, bike riding, walking, picking up friends, to the mall, to the movies, to visit grandma...nearly everything we do. If we say we want to go alone, or have alone time, it hurts his feelings. D17 actually brought this up last week when she had it out with him, that she knows he wants to be with us all the time, but she wants to spend time alone with her mother.

As for my actions, of course they don't say I'm not going to put up with it. That's why I came here, to learn ways to deal with him through my fears. The talk we had Thursday was the closest I've ever even come to telling him how miserable I am, apart from the couple times I've been close to suicide. So at least I'm taking some steps to be honest with him.

Anyway, thanks for keeping me honest. I need to question what I do, because I don't want to be unfair.

Cat, I tell him, that must feel awful. Let's talk with the MC about what you can do when you feel like that. He gets mad as all get out, like I'm abandoning him, but he does tell the MC, and she gives him a plan.

Like he told the MC I terrorize the kids until they are afraid of me. I didn't agree with this, but I asked the kids just in case, and they actually did tell their dad this one day I got mad, but they don't feel like that now. I asked what does Daddy say instead so they don't feel scared when he tells them to do something, and they said he says, "I'm going to call Mommy if you don't do this."

She asked me how I felt when he said that. I said I think I don't terrorize them, but I think it's important to me that he has a plan what to do. She asked me what I thought he could do to "snap me out of it," and I said, if he held my hand. Or he could take the kids out. So this week, one of the times I asked the kids to do something, he came and held my hand. I didn't think I did anything wrong, but I asked if he could take that over, so I could take a quick walk. Then I came back, everything's cooled down with the kids, and we reinforced to each other that we have other options than to let it escalate out of hand.

ears, I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? I'm not following.

Cat, sorry I wasn't more clear. I'm talking about when he gets on you about how you do things, and you already told him that you're willing to discuss with him different ways, and he's not enthusiastic about discussing it. He just wants you to do it a different way, even though you are not going to do it the other way, because you already tried it and found it built resentment. Like when he wants you to let your timeshare go unused, and you book it, anyhow. You had discussed several differnt options already, and he didn't want to continue.

So then you can tell him, that must feel really badly when you want me to do that differently and I don't. You could talk to DD17's IC about that and get a plan what to do. My point is that it's not your problem to fix. Let a professional help him fix it instead.

Ok, that makes sense. I'll work on that. Someone suggested that I stop giving advice and start asking him what he's going to do in work situations, and that has had a huge impact on him. All tied up in his need for admiration, I guess.

Cat...I think people in marriages like ours tend to want to fix things all the time. It's a constant battle to pull back and allow people to figure out their own issues and own their own problems.

I think living in that "fix it" mode causes a sort of undercurrent that wears away at the self confidence of people we are always trying to fix things for, but it also makes us a nervous, nervous wreck - perpetually on high alert.

I used to be so afraid my husband would say or do something to offend my family or give the wrong impression. I'd always be there to gloss over it and iron out the wrinkles so they didn't think I made this wrong choice in marrying him. I've come to find out with people I trust and who know me that if I just shrug and tell them he is who he is and that I'm not making excuses anymore, they are actually a lot more 'fine with it' and a lot more capable of handling it than I thought they'd be, and everyone survives.

And if anyone gets in my face with their opinion of our 'not so great' marriage - it's a risk I take in exchange for 'letting go.'

I think we have to allow people to be strong and quit thinking we're all that indispensable in their lives and their interactions with others because if we don't stop, two things can happen, the way I see it:

1. We actually can become indispensable in their lives by covering for them all the time. We groom the person, unknowingly, to become dependent on us to edit and/or filter what they say and do by undermining their self confidence.

2. We may find ourselves using the 'covering for them' as a way to make ourselves feel more important and needed. A little more refined - a little less rough around the edges...People are who they are.

No one can divorce us from our spouses. They might feel sorry for us or they might think we're stupid for marrying a certain person, but bottom line is they are not likely to tell you that, and if they do, you can always cross that bridge when you get to it. After all we've been through, we can certainly handle that.

Very true. I'm trying really hard to be aware of that and stop doing it, though it's hard when you've been the Giver all your life. I have IC next week, a lot of material to cover.

I think I'm finally starting to see some progress. I've been trying really hard to be more attentive, sitting with H on the couch and watching tv together, holding his hand, hugging him, asking his opinion on things, SF flirting, saying goodbye when I leave in the morning.

Our freezer went out yesterday, and I called to tell him, heart fluttering as I prepared for an AO. Didn't happen. Got home and tried to fix it, still bad, but no anger on his part; maybe a little disappointment in having to pay someone to fix it.

Oh, and we went to a Texans preseason game last night (client gave him tickets), because he knows I like football (he hates it), so he went with me for my sake. And even went and got me a drink and a hot dog without prompting.

Then this morning, I left for work and he called me and said his keys were in my car, so I had to turn around and bring them to him. As I pulled in the driveway, he was standing out by the street to get the keys so I wouldn't have to waste more time, since I was now late for work, and he just smiled at me. A year ago, he'd be cussing and angry that HE was going to be late. This time, he was being empathetic for ME.

Between the ADs, my changes, and his job turning out better, I think (hope) things are finally looking up.

Wow, cat, that's SO cool! Thanks for the happy update

Wow, yes, that's cool!


I'm very happy to see some positive movement in your M.

So H is leaving on another trip, and we're going through the typical issues every trip: didn't prepare ahead of time so we're rushing through everything at 11pm. But this time he didn't like how I was digging through all his piles of stuff to find the things he needed, he told me to leave it alone, so I did! I got up and sat on the bed, and here I am! While he goes round and round, looking for the stuff he needs. He yelled and cursed earlier because I was upstairs ironing his shirts instead of outside helping him paint some pieces of the car he's revamping for D18 (she's 18 now!), and he dropped this huge piece cos I wasn't out helping him. So I've been practicing leaving his presence when he blows up. So far, so good.

After the blowup with D17 a couple weeks ago, he's been somewhat more careful around us. So we might be doing better. I just can't tell yet. Have IC next Thursday.

Oh! and I set up for a cleaning lady to come every other week! D18 isn't taking dance or drum lessons any more, so I'm spending the money on a cleaning lady. My number one EN is a clean house, so for once, after 30 years, I'm spending money on MY needs. No matter what anyone says. And I just finished a side job that paid $460, so I'm going to spend $160 on a side table for our living room (we're currently using a TV tray, in a millionaire neighborhood), and put the other $300 toward a bill or toward the $1000 I need for Dave Ramsey's $1000 savings fund that I'm still saving up for.

So I'm good and I'm nervous. I don't think my ADs are working, but I'm also drinking wine every night. And I'm going to a chiropractor (I have smashed C6 and C7 discs in my neck, which will require surgery if I don't fix them) twice a week. So I'm working, but I'm also going home and taking naps. Kind of a crazy existence.

H is more nice than not these days. He yelled tonight, but only because he dropped this huge piece from D18's car when he was trying to paint it and I was upstairs ironing his clothes for his trip tomorrow morning instead of helping him. I think D17 (now D18) yelling at him a couple weeks ago had a big effect, which shames me no end (that she had to do it instead of me), and he's been much more aware than ever before. But I've always said he ignores what I say and listens to her. So whatever.

At least we're moving forward.

*hugs*

just letting you know I'm here if ya wanna "talk"...

I'm using H's computer, my internet connection doesn't work as well for some reason, so once again I can't remember how to log on using jayne241, so I'm using jayne142.

Let me send this in case yer still awake.

Hi Cat, the wine might be counteracting the ADs. I think you're doing a great job learning to back away from your husband when he is on one of his rants. My husband never packs in advance of business trips either, and I 've learned to just smile (inwardly) as he runs around hunting stuff up at 4 in the morning.

Don't feel too bad about dd having to be the one to tell your dh to tone it down. You probably have told him similar things and he just ignored it. For some reason he's willing to listen to your dd, so that's a bonus.

Congrats on your daughter being 18.

Ah yes, what happy said! Maybe lay off the wine a few days, see what happens?

Speaking as a chronic packing procrastinator, leaving him alone to suffer the consequences was exactly the right thing to do. At least it would've been the right way to handle me, if I were fuming and panicking. I wouldn't be happy that you stopped helping me, but I'd ultimately know that I have only myself to blame. That would be much better *for me* in the long run, than if you tried to rescue me and put up with my AO and blaming you.

Congrats on DD18!

happy, thanks. You're right, and I've told D18 that - I think he equates me with his mom, who always expected him to do everything for her and never appreciated it, so he tends to ignore what I say. But will bend over backwards for D18, to try to 'earn' her love.

Y'all are probably right; hadn't really thought about the wine and ADs. I need to remove the empty calories anyway, as I get back on my diet.

I'm doing the happy dance for you, cat, for getting back into IC, and getting the health care and exercise you need. There are no small changes.

I've been rereading Healing the Shame that Binds You, really freeing stuff! I think that it would really help you put this stuff with your H and DD18 into perspective. I think your changes, with the finances and the house, made a real change in the home and the family environment, which your H was already responding to. A free choice he made. You see others on the board whose spouses fight against the changes instead of jumping on board. Like how your H wasn't ready the day of the CCC appointment, but what she said sunk in later when he changed his perspective of it. And in his forward momentum, he chose to hear to what DD18 had to say.

Hey Cat! I'm trying to follow the Dave Ramsey program too. I took his book The Total Money Makeover out of the library, had to renew it, and was so bummed when I had to return it. So...I bought a used copy off Amazon using PayPal, along with the workbook, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck with it. Stay the course!

Thanks, ears. I'm in the middle of a fantasy trilogy, but when I finish it, I'll be back to the self help books.

Sooly, I just got paid $400 for a writing side job, and I'm debating whether to put it in the $1000 emergency fund (I only have $600 saved so far), or pay toward a bill with it. What do you think?