Hi jayne, I did something like that once. I'd shared with him a neat idea I learned at weight watchers, if you think you want a snack, try a glass of water. In 15 minutes, physical hunger gets stronger, but psychological hunger fades. Then he would ask me, what about a glass of water instead. So then when he went to get a drink, I asked him, How about a glass of water instead? He still has the problem, what to do with those feelings? There are many answers that have suggested to him, but he's not ready. I think that's where it helps to encourage dd12 to share her O&H. So she can hopefully avoid taking his fears on her own little shoulders.

First of all, thanks for the tip about the water! I'd heard something like it, but it seemed it only made me hungry sometimes so I stopped... I see now the idea is to determine if you're really *physically* hungry, in which case you should eat, right?

Ok, back to the important stuff...

I'm glad you're talking to her, helping her learn how to handle such things for herself. I may tend to over-protect, to prevent there being anything to handle. Like the thing on my thread, which I'll reply to over there.

I wonder if having DD actually use the word "nagging" in her reply, would help a male mind to understand? I dunno, it seems to be a word guys identify with, and understand that it has unwanted effects.

I will consider that, we haven't talked about using words the other person connects with before.

I think it's that I struggled so much with the enmeshment specifically, that i really view the O&H as something I do for my own sanity, and let go of the response. I saw what pieta wrote on aeri's thread, communicating in a way her H would understand, and how it worked for aeri.

But at the same time, I don't know if it's honest to say that nagging her makes her want to eat more. Wouldn't that be like saying she doesn't know how much she wants to eat, and that other people decide that through their actions? Like she ALREADY has an eating disorder? Like when my H has said in the past that he had to go out drinking because I'm so hard to live with. I understand that things get to that point, but wow, I hope we're not there already today.

She said what you said, actually, about her wanting to eat more when she does get the chance when her dad is not there, Tuesday, and I told her that she decides what she eats, based on whether she's hungry. Now thinking it through, it sounds like I'm invalidating her, and pushing her to replace her thoughts with mine. More enmeshment! Ack!

I have decided for now against the keylogger. I don't really think it is healthy for me personally to start reading what he does on the computer. I think there are a lot of people a keylogger is great for. The only thing driving them nuts is living with a cheating spouse. It makes sense that this would be a healthy thing for them to do. But I've got to keep in mind that MB is a program for pretty healthy people.

I think that I have more work to do on myself before I would even be ready to handle what a keylogger could find. And the peace of mind that would come from finding nothing on the keylogger, I can also find by trying to connect with H and the kids.

{{{{{{{{{{ears}}}}}}}}}}

Oh, I hate to hear you say things like this. I accept your assessment, and trust you to know what you can handle and how you can connect... I just hope that soon you WILL look on yourself as being healthy and strong and able to face whatever may come.

*hugs*

Thanks for the hugs, jayne. I should've said "ready to act on" instead of "ready to handle". I can handle whatever happens.

I've been conciously trying to spend more time at home, and found that I can be home more, I just need to be aware to "turn it on," to conciously choose my actions, that mindfulness cat speaks of, because things are in a cycle here, and this is the tougher part. Newer to me. To hang in and connect during conflict instead of going to that Space Wall we talked about. I am reminding myself that there is nothing I can't negotiate for, even when it seems easier to give in and make do without. I can do this, and I thank you for hanging in there with me. There are no small changes.

I got that "Healing the Shame That Binds You" from the library, because I can't find my copy, and wanted to finish it. I think it ties in. That being ashamed that I can't do it all alone the way I'd like to, to recognize my limits. I can make a thoughtful request, and have a backup plan, to see what I can accomplish alone, and accept how well I can do this today.

H was trash talking a coworker today, and her daughter who also works there, overheard and called her mom, who called H to confront him. She was in tears. They both have a lot of difficult circumstances, including major health issues right now.

H calls me, and I'd like to be supportive, but it also feels like I'm enabling his behavior. So I said, oh, man, that must feel awful. Lots of supportive sounds. When he was done, I added, this might also be a good opportunity for you, too. To look at your behavior and see if it's matching your integrity. Because I have a lot of respect for your integrity.

So he responds that I trash talk people all the time. I don't agree with that, but I kept on topic, and said, that's not what I was talking about. I'm sorry oyu're having such a bad day. And so we ended on that note. I don't know how to handle this better for next time. Maybe it was okay.

We have Open House at DD12's school. My mom's birthday was last Friday, but she was sick, so my S18 and B19, not the violent one, rescheduled for tonight, and I'd like to meet up with them. I know that's going to make problems with H. I'm trying to choose being centered instead of thinking everything I do makes problems with H. Not sure how to negotiate that, either, though, not sure what is in that for him, when he says he doesn't like when I see her at all.

Guess I just need to be more patient with the process. This didn't get broken in a day, and his problems with my mom didn't develop overnight. I've got to keep an open mind that in time, we'll resolve this, too.

I hope it went well. All I can offer is that, no matter how much you're supposed to bond with your H, it's not healthy to give up your family simply because your H doesn't get along with them. The very first thing I think of when I think of a man and his wife and his wife's family, is that the man feels judged, found wanting, having to prove his worth to belong in the family and usually just decides to try to keep the wife from spending much time with her family, so he won't be at the mercy of them all. But so very many abuse stories begin with the woman giving up her time with her family to keep peace with her husband. What good does that do? Isn't it better to make an agreement with H, to assure him that she will never choose her family over him, but that she deserves time with family, too?

Assuming that your husband wants to go to the school thing, could you say "I want to drop by Mom's after the open-house. If you don't feel like going maybe we should take two cars". That way he has an out, and you still get to do what you want.

Regarding your previous situation with dh trash talking, to me it sounded like you came across as a little bit lecturing. He related a situation when he didn't do the right thing and it bit him in the rear. Then you told him how he did wrong. I think he already knew he was in error.

A simple "oh man, how embarrassing" might have sufficed. You pointed out his fault, so he tried to pass the buck back to you so that he wouldn't look so bad.

I hope that didn't come across too harsh, I know you are under a lot of stress.

Thanks, cat, for pointing out that dynamic. Take that, and add to it the pressure on him to make up for what was lost.

I'm glad that we were able to work things out with me going to see my mom yesterday. We did take two cars. The part H expressed concern about was that I was going to pay for the four of us. He wanted to know why I even thought I should treat them, and I explained that my grandpa had always treated, and still offers to. We always treated his mom, too, just a cultural thing. I decided I would take my B19 aside and ask if he wanted to split the bill with me, as he works full time, too, and maybe wanted to treat my mom, too. B19 made other plans(?) so that turned out to be a nonissue.

It was a little uncomfortable. This was the first time my mom and sister had seen each other since the fight, and my mom was shining a light on our shortcomings a little. She told my sister that she's going need to be more agreeable. I wanted to tell my mom, I respect and admire that she's taking some time to detach, but I chose to tell my sister on the side instead. I think I'll feel more comfortable talking to my mom one-on-one. I feel more comfortable talking about conflict with H on a walk, not so trapped and anxious. I'll ask my mom if she would be open to going for a walk with me, too.


DD12 made dinner for her and DD7 while we were at the Open House, and there were a bunch of dishes when we got home. She was swamped with homework, so I'm glad she figured out her priorities. Fortunately, H didn't build up resentment doing the dishes, and left them for me instead. Gave me a way to help even though I wasn't physically there with them. This felt like real progress to me.



I think he knew he was in error for getting overheard, not so much about the badmouthing part. H and I both used to do this together all the time when the kids were out of earshot. It's something I'm working on. I think H has been working on it, too. Like cat's DD, mine is also calling us on where our values and behaviors aren't matching. What I got from The Dance Of Anger was that the goal is to replace complaining to others with going to the person directly. But I think I understand you, that what I said didn't sound so supportive of him. Next time I can let it sit a day and then ask him what he learned from it, and share what I learned from it. Instead of a lecture in the moment. Sound better?

H would like to go out to California before May, and on first thought, that sounded like an awful idea. But thinking aloud, if it's NOT going to work out, and we would move back anyhow, then I'm thinking it would be less impactful on our marriage and family to have him go out in January, and possibly DD12, when they want to go, for pilot season. Then, H would have work and a place to stay lined up ahead of time, and if DD12 went we we would know if DD12 will get the same education there, before we move DD7 and empty the house and I leave a good job, too? Or if it's not working out, they should know by then.

Does that make any sense? Or would it add a stress of a separation to an already overly stressful situation?

no logger yet, but another email sent last night. I totally didn't want to look this morning, but I *knew*. "How are you feeling dear? You gonna be up for Ike[hurricane headed here]? Will you need some shopping done for you?" I think he may know I'm looking, too. Still thinking it's most likely a boundary crossing, but not a current PA. I'm going to reread SAA this weekend.

Not sure if I should post about this here, because I've told him about the site a lot.

Gdar's example, of following up now on suspicions she had long ago, in the present, really helped me look at my own actions and inactions and intent. It takes what it takes. Like Hold says, "I can handle it!"

I'm sorry ears, I want to sock your husband.

he's calling someone "dear" and offering to pick up groceries?

May not be a PA, but certainly sounds like an EA.

I doubt your husband will look here on this website, but you could always re-subscribe as someone else.

I am so angry for you.

And sorry.

You know, Telly, I'm not really angry today. I've known we've had boundary issues for a long time. I've known I need to address them more effectively. I'm glad that I found this while we're in counseling, so I can discuss the boundaries and my concerns.

My pplan was that we were going to do this 10 week Imago program with the MC. We're on week 2, got sidetracked with negotiations and issues. Then I figured we would be good enough negotiators for me to negotiate to go to the MB weekend. They do them every year in Orlando, and I was waiting to see where the next one is. I saw on the site this week that they chose Minneapolis for the next one in October. That will be harder to negotiate, but still possible. We have some FF miles we could use, and Minneapolis is a cool place to visit. But I still know I can call earlier if I need to. I don't think this coworker or whatever obstacle we're facing stands a chance against the Harleys.

I don't think my H would look here, or check the computer for a logger, unless he was doing something he thought was bad, and wants to know if I know. And I don't think HE thinks he's doing anything wrong, KWIM? I thought about resubscribing, but I don't think folks get as accurate advice when folks don't know enopugh of the background. And anything I said that gave enough background would be the same. Thanks for helping me think this through. I'm glad I have that book, I was going to lend it out.

Okay, I'm lying. I am angry. My heart is racing. I emailed it to myself, and then deleted it from his sent mail. I want to email it back to him, and ask, WTF?

I want to work for a solution NOW, instead of waiting and seeing if there is more information. Instead of thinking through whether I need to be more proactive in the information gathering. I want to work with him like my partner. I wish he felt the way I did about all this. I want to email the email back to her and ask her to back off from my H with her "one is the loneliest number" emails. I want to email his boss and ask her to work with me to find a local company H could work for. Or California, or whatever. Instead of this travel stuff.

And I want to do all this without dropping the momentum on the changes I'm making in my life. I don't ask for much

I'm so sorry, ears. I think anything you do is ok, as long as you are honest with yourself and him.

Thanks, cat. You have given me that advice before, at another time that I needed it, and I've shared it with several people since then, and it's always been right.

Got to work, H left a voicemail for me by mistake, tearing into DD12. I called to see if everything's okay, and it was. I mentioned the yelling voicemail, and he said, that's nothing compared to what I do to her. Wow. It hadn't really sunken in before. That this is how he sees me, after all this time, all this change. It explains a lot. I would hate someone that I saw as horribly abusive all the time, too. Those are the words he's used all along, I thought for dramatic effect. Didn't understand that this IS how he sees me, day after day, even today. Someone who abandons their kids to go to meetings "every day," and who is "horribly abusive" when home. Who "makes him do it all".

I feel shell-shocked. I didn't connect in conflict. I said something like, "that's good to know," and got off the phone. I have a progressive boundary enforcement around DJs, and I'm trying to figure out how to make that workable when me not being home is seen as an offense against the family. I am thinking I'll take the girls to the library tonight, and help them with their homework there, and bring them home after.

He mentioned this weekend, when the storm was still headed towards us, that we could check to see if my Gradpa needed groceries. And then mentioned his coworker lived by him, we could pick her up some things, too. I said that I don't know about that, that it feels like there are not enough boundaries there. I didn't know how to respectfully address his concern, that this lady get groceries. She'd already responded to him that she was okay and could get them, even though she was still recovering from what had her out of work. H AOed and went on and on about how controlling I am.

Yesterday he made fun of me to DDs, telling them that I accused him of having an affair with his coworker, "a 65 year old in a wheelchair," which is simply not true. I didn't accuse him of anything, just respectfully expressed my concern about the current lack of boundaries. I'd met her before, at a coworker's wedding, and she looked H's age, and danced and everything just fine. I don't think it's healthy to drag them into this.

I feel like I should be able to hold this together, but my motivation is gone. I think I can hold on through this episode, especially since MC is tomorrow. But I'm loosing my connection with the "why." I think I should try to POJA to call the Harleys, because when I talked to Steve last, he was amazing with the insight and motivation.