The dreaded RA topic. I agree very much with what Wannamoveforward said. Word for word actually. I'm taking a punt here, but I think there isn't a question of whether RA's are bad - we all agree that A's of any sort are bad, it's more a question of owning your (generic your) own [censored].

You say that "original" WS's don't come in for the same amount of 2x4s that RA WS's do. That's debatable (after having been on the receiving end of many 2x4s) but I think what most people are trying to get across is that justification, babble and an attitude of "I'm not so bad - I was pushed" is what is being addressed.

I'm not putting you, personally, into any categories at all. I'm interested in the recovery of marriages.

ETA lol, my word got censored but I'm sure you can tell what it was.

What if RAs cause the original BS to have less pain(Plausible), and the original WS to have some betrayal pain Then,they share in the deep emotional repair that must take place on a more even footing. I can tell you that had I not had a RA, there would be no way I could stay w/ WW. NONE! I can also tell you that all the hurt/pain associated w/ the A was almost completely gone during RA(Lasting a month). I guess my brain thought I was moving on or something. Once it ended and I was back w/ FWW, then some of it came back. I'm not saying it was right! Just my thoughts on the effects.

I don't disagree with 2x4's when 2x4's are in need....never have. Whether it's a "RA" WS or not...2x4's come in quite handy when getting one's point across...I don't disagree with you.

The thing that I've noticed is that there could be a topic going on and someone who is waist deep in recovery, but a RA WS, comes in and says "I had an RA" or "the RA was part of the reason that my WS's affair ended" (like I have said)... everyone starts in with the "you are immoral...you should know better...etc".

I beg the question...what if every time someone (who is in recovery and is dedicated to recovery) who is a FWS says something, I come in and say "you are a selfish, immature, immoral human being, who should grow up"? Do you think that would be justified?

Maybe I will do that from now on. How long do you think I'd last?

It's a double standard.



edit:

I will add that...YES, my WW's affair, and contact with OM, ended as soon as I told her about my RA...and after 2 months of her lying to me about ending the affair but continuing contact, it is no coincidence that contact ended after I told her about my ONS. My ONS had more to do with her ending contact with OM than any other method that I tried with her. I'm not going to say that I knew this, and that's why I did it...but in hindsight, it did in fact help end her A. This isn't "fog-babble" talking....it's fact (I was there).

People, this is not a p!$$!ng contest about whose pain is worse. An A is an A is an A and is detrimental to a marriage, never mind the BS's soul, regardless of whether it is a primary A, an RA or what.

That said, I am a BS and though an RA wasn't on my particular agenda at the time, and I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone, I can certainly understand how one could occur. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that I can see how it would happen.

It is STILL a justification. No different really from other WS fog-babble justifications.

The difference is that I know first-hand what how that new BS feels and how messed up they really are. There is no other circumstance in life that leaves you that way. None.

There are no winners in adultery, regardless of how, why, when or where it happend.

BTW Dude, I actually feel really bad for you. It is clear you carry a lot of guilt and confusion - both due to your WW's A and your own RA. I truly hope you can find your way through it all.

See my edit.

Intro, I've been called that and far worse on here. I still am by certain members even though I'm a FWW in recovery and dedicated to recovery. That is actually what our MC told me just after d-day (a little more tactfully, though not much more). It's also the truth about who I was during my A and quite a bit after it.

An interesting f'rinstance. If the ROP was married/in a relationship and confessed all and then the ROP's spouse came looking for you do you think they would give a rat's patootie that it was a "revenge" A.

No, I don't imagine he would give a rat's patootie.

I wouldn't blame him...I would blame OW for lying to me.

The question for me (if OW was married) would be...

...now that I can use hindsight, and it's clear to me that WW ended her affair out of fear of losing me to another woman...would I still have the ONS, even though OW was married? How far would I go (or low would I stoop) to save my marriage? That's a hard question.

It's kinda like asking a parent if they would let one child die in order to save the other child?...would I do the unthinkable, and unforgivable (as far as OWH is concerned) to help my own cause?


Great....look what you made me do...lol.


Im ready....... :twobyfour:

Intro,

You asked the question about whether or not there is a double standard when it comes to a RA.

I would say that the double standard is in anyone who would have a RA and then try to justify it. Here is why...

When you know the pain caused by your own betrayal at the hands of your spouse AND have been reading and posting seeking guidance on MB it is with knowledge of the pain inflicted by an affair and knowing that it is completely antithetical to MB principals and yet to go ahead and actually have the affair actually shows a low moral standard.

To then argue that it wasn't as bad as the original affair because of X,Y & Z is nothing more than an attempt to justify having an affair JUST LIKE the reasons given by your wife in an effort to justify hers. I would bet that your wife could give all sorts of reasons why HER affair was good for her and for your marriage...

It woke you up.
It caused you to examine yourself and see what it was that needed improving.
It kept her from just walking away from the marriage and kept her home because she was getting her ENs met elsewhere while still maintaining her life with you (Yeah, I'm talking about the lies and deception here)
It probably gave her a reason to go on that motivated her to keep plugging when she felt like giving up.
It gave her a better understanding of what she would lose if she were to lose you and made her appreciate you more than if you had just kicked her butt to the curb.
It showed her how strong you could be and how you were willing to fight for her.

I could come up with other possible reasons she might use.

Here's the thing...


NONE of that would be justifiable cause to hurt you the way she did!

AND to inflict that same pain on her KNOWING how much it hurt, there is NOTHING you can say or point out that makes your RA right, good, moral, justifiable or better than her affair.

The reason a BS who has a RA is beat so severely about the head and shoulders when they have a RA is BECAUSE they know how much it hurts to be betrayed. To know that and to do it anyway, not only shows poor judgment, lack of moral strength and a failure to make right choices to protect the marriage, it also shows a total disdain for what is right and proper and a lack of respect not only for the BS but also for MB principals and what most would consider human decency.

It also shows a lack of respect for oneself since it merely lowers one's own standards and removes any possibility of arguing from the moral high ground. It makes the BS who has a RA exactly the same morally as the WS who first cheated AND adds to it the knowing infliction of pain on another human being that you claimed to have loved.

It removes just cause from the equation just as surely as if you had shot her dead when you found out about the affair.

You say she inflicted on you the worst pain you have ever experienced in your entire life...

And yet you did the same to her KNOWING (nay, HOPING) it would be the same for her.

So now she is going to have to swallow her own fears, pain and self-respect in order to fight for a marriage she now wants, and never really wanted to be done with since she did not leave you for OM, but she also has to give up on any possibility to be compensated for her own pain in order to help you recover because she KNOWS she did wrong...

And tell me again how this was a good thing for your marriage and is going to make it easier to recover...

A RA might make things even, but it doesn't make things better and certainly doesn't make anything right...

She hurt you because she acted selfishly.

You hurt her because you wanted to her to hurt...


Mark

I don't disagree, but you seem to be overlooking one thing...

If I didn't do it....she'd still be having an affair. She was such a selfish individual, that the only way she was going to end the cake-eating was to have the cake ripped out of her hand....by me and OW.

Now that I have MB knowledge under my belt, I would certainly never entertain having an RA again...but at the time I didn't even know what MB was. Now, plan B would obviously have to come into play...but that is just hindsight talking.

I'm not trying to justify the RA...that's not what I'm up to. I'm simply stating a fact.

Remember, like I have already stated...I was there...my ONS ebded the A.....this is FACT.

Intro, that is a big difference as far as I'm concerned. You did it before MB, when you were acting on instinct.

LOL, that sounded like I was justifying for you. :RollieEyes: But I think you know what I mean.

I was far, far, far, far worse than you. I was on MB and a trusted and liked poster when I recontacted the OM. But even after my fall from grace my H and I have still made it.

FWIW, you know I remember you on SI. You were one very, very angry dude. I hope you don't mind me saying but you've become one of the most thoughtful posters on MB - one that is always worth reading.

I think it's probably time to get moving on you and KMS. How are you doing now?

Don't most BSs want to hurt their WSs pre-recovery? While I would never have a RA, I know I wanted to hurt my H. At the height of my anger, I wanted to destroy H until he was just a puddle on the floor. Am I proud of it? No. I don't see much difference in having a RA versus lashing out in some sort of way that you HOPE will hurt your WS. It's f-ed up thinking but then again your WS has f-ed up your whole life as you knew it.

Does the BS of the RA even feel the same pain as the BS of the original affair anyway?

Black Raven, I've spoken to lots of WS's who WERE just as hurt and just as devastated by their BS's RA.

But..... during my A my H was leaning VERY heavily on another woman for the emotional support I wasn't giving him. He thought I was just distant, he didn't know about the A. I got a friend of mine who worked in the same area as my H to check things out. She found nothing concrete but I swear to this day it was an EA. At that stage of my A, I would have liked things to be even. It would have assuaged my guilt.

AFTER my A I would have been devastated.

ETA I think there is a HUGE difference between lashing out and bringing further immoral behaviour and the premeditated use of another human being for your own purposes into the mix.

Another little problem with an RA could be when the RA person and the OP fall in love. Is it still an RA or is it "luuuuuuurve" and "meant to be"?

My wife's affair ended and I did not have a RA...

LaLa ended her affair without W2S having an RA.

DocP did not have an affair and yet LC ended her affair.

Kiwi ended her affair even without her H having a RA.

Mimi's husband came home and ended his affair without her having a RA.

Not2Fun's husband is home without her having a RA.

Affairs end. That's what they do. It is what happens to affairs; they come to an end.

In order to hasten the end, is anything and everything justified? Does the fact that the affair ended, even if it WAS because you had the RA, does the RA then become right? Less wrong? Are Dr Harley's ideas to be abandoned because he has other means to employ to bring an affair to an end?

What of Plan A and Plan B? Do we just throw them out because all anyone has to do is have a RA? The carrot and the stick of Plan A how does that fit into a RA? And why bother to expose if all it takes is to do the same thing in return?


Would you advise others to do the same thing you did and tell them it will definitely save their marriage? That it might? That it could? That it should? That you know that it saved yours?

That is the real issue here and what I would fear is that others who might come along would read that and say "I know how to fix this. I'll have my own affair!"

And when their wife moves in with OM the next day because she now feels she KNOWS he doesn't really care for her...

What do we then say to those BHs whoconsidered this as a solution to bring about the end of their wife's affair?

Your wife's affair ended when it became clear that she might actually lose you. What she was about to give up became real to her and she saw the errors in her judgment.

Happened that way for my wife too. But I didn't have a RA in order to show her.

I worked on me, did a decent Plan A and then when she resisted told her leave.

And meant it...

Next day was her epiphany...

Same reason as KMS's, she knew what she was giving up if she pursued the affair further. But I didn't have to hurt her the way she hurt me to show her what she might lose..

And just like my wife might not have even considered my ultimatum as a reason to stop the affair, KMS might not have even considered your RA as reason to end hers. It was the epiphany that broke the affair. The events immediately prior to that epiphany weren't necessarily what caused it...

I can say that my wife is home because I changed and did everything right...

She can say she is home because she chose to be home...

We're both right...

And neither of us has to be...

Since one didn't necessarily cause the other.

Mark

Applause for Mark. Great post.

Maybe but I have a hard time believing that. I just can't equate the fallout being the same especially if the orginal WS is still in a fog.


What if the OP in the RA just wants a ONS or sex with no strings attached? I'm not saying a RA is ever right or justified but I can certainly understand how some people end up there.

and just as many, if not more, did not end in time to save a marriage. Should we talk about Lilsis...her husband is marrying the affair partner...same with MLHB....how about James...Tabby...etc. Believer is no longer married...Kiwi went back for seconds...do you think maybe she wouldn't have if her husband made it clear he would screw around if she did...maybe.

Every single time an affair partner drops to their knees or drops their pants is another knife to the heart...every single time. An affair is not a single act...it is a new injury each and every time someone screws their affair partner.


If Intro's actions hastened the ending of the affair, I say good for him. It would be great if every wayward pulled their head out of their asss without the threat of a RA...but if that is what it takes, so be it.

See, all this stuff about affairs always ending is just not true. Too many people here have seen their WS stay with an affair partner for a long, long time. Some have married. A lot of people here know quite a few ex affair partners that have married. I personally know of more than a couple of marriages that started off as affairs.

They don't all end...and many, MANY do not end in time to save the marriage....even for those that follow the Harley's plans. You need 2 partners to make it work. The POJA and the PORH are worthless without buy-in from the wayward spouse.

MEDC, that surprises me and disappoints me more than anything I have ever seen you write.

I guess because you are a fellow Christian, I just didn't expect that from you.

What would Jesus do?

And on that sad note, I am going to bed.

medc, with great trepidation (because I never know where your 2x4s are going to come from) I agree with you. Toooooo a certain extent. I definitely think Plan A does work even on a very foggy wayward. I definitely think POJA is impossible with a wayward spouse.

If my H had said he was going to have an RA it wouldn't have been what stopped me "going back for seconds". It was MY lack of boundaries, it was MY stupidity, nothing else. Can you please believe me when I say that is now in the past?

YOU know exactly where they are coming from and why. I am an "in your face" person when delivering a 2 x 4.