Wow, guess this brought out some strong feelings from you all. I thought it might. Sure has thrown me for a loop as well.

I think to understand this, you have to understand my stbxw. She loves me, without a doubt, I saw it so clearly, felt it too.

She's looking out for herself in the divorce, sure. As am I. We talked about it quite openly before we engaged in anything else.

For a long time now, I think I've been reacting to her emotional displays of her feelings, scared of her emotions and her reactions to my actions. Scared to tell her my truth, look her in the eye, tell her I loved her, but didn't agree with her. I did not do those things, I ran, I hid, I was scared.

As I've worked to become strong, less afraid of her and her emotions, her reactions, I've gained confidence, strength. She saw it in me last night, and even challenged me a few times.

I was leaving when I looked at her and grabbed her and kissed her. Right after we'd talked for over 2 hours about what went wrong, and why, and the terms of our D.

I have said before, and I will say again, I think we need this divorce so we can have a different relationship in the future.

I understand her move to divorce me and I respect it. I also see how conflicted she is, and in truth, I am too.

We shared something very special together, and it might make it more difficult, but I don't think so.

It's just getting more interesting.

- TTM


P.S. I understand why you're all concerned, and I also see my own choice to cross my boundary. But it's only a boundary crossing if I feel upset. I don't feel upset or anger. If we made love one last time, for whatever the reason, it was something I enjoyed tremendously. Even if it was for the wrong reasons.

I decided to play it cool and didn't contact stbxw yesterday and went out for a drink after work. While sitting at the bar enjoying a beer, stbxw sent me a txt message asking me if there was anything else I wanted to discuss.

I replied that she must have been reading my mind. Long story short, we went out to dinner, had a nice time, laughed, and enjoyed each others company, and ended up back at her place making love again. It was very passionate and intense.

I fell asleep afterward and woke to her crying softly. When I asked her if there was anything I could do to help, she just said no.

When we were at dinner I asked her why she was there, and what were we doing. Her walls flew up immediately, and she answered coldly that she was just using me. I looked her in the eye, and knew she was not sharing her truth with me at that moment.

As the evening progressed she then told me that she can't sleep with anyone that she doesn't feel emotionally connected to, and has been alone since our split. I believe her, this was true.

She rattled off a list of all the reasons we can't be together, and I just listened to her, and appreciated her fears and concerns.

Where this will lead, I don't know, but I'm going to stay strong and firm. This time I will not waver, falter or fall.

- TTM

TTM, do you believe that all these fears and concerns can be resolved with time? Do you think she needs space from you to work on these things, or time with you to realize that her fears are unwarranted?

Do you trust her?

Yes I trust her and yes I think all of her fears will melt away with time and some work on both of our parts.

What's important to remember right now, is I'm working again a bit in plan A. I didn't need the SF, she did. I made a conscious choice to meet one of her needs. What's happened as a result is she's starting to remember the things she loved and has missed about our relationship.

I'm thinking I will get to a place where I say to her 'it's time to discuss working on our R together.' But that time isn't now.

Right now I get to enjoy it for what it is. Am I scared I'll get hurt? Yup, I am. Will I be ok? Yup, I will. Is she worth the potential pain? Yup.

Keep you all posted,

- TTM

Scared, and unsure.

Last night stbxw showed up at my house after work, and I invited her to dinner with me. We ate, laughed and again had a nice time. After dinner we went to a local bar and were enjoying a beer outside, she started expressing to me a lot of her feelings about 'us' and her reasons why we can't be together anymore. To my best I just listened and validated her feelings. I went to the bathroom, and when I came back she was gone, she had driven home. It's just a short walk to her house from where we were, so I walked there to find the door open. We again talked and mostly I listened to her tell me all the reasons we can't be together again. I did offer a different point of view a few times, but mostly I tried to listen to her.

In the past, when she expressed doubt and fears about 'us' I would leave. Emotionally check out, or just 'disappear'. I was so afraid of her negative emotions, fears and doubts. Several times now, I'm not dodging her, I'm walking right into them, and embracing them the best I can.

As the conversation progressed, she said at one point 'I think you should leave', and I said 'I believe you', then said 'I'd like to stay and tuck you in bed'. I ended up walking her to bed, and then crawled in with her, and snuggled up and slept. We had coffee in the am, and chatted a little.

In the past I've been so afraid of 'upsetting' her that if she asked me to do something, I would, instead of doing what I thought was right or best for us. I did this to the point of leaving the marital home, almost two years ago now. I left then because she was yelling and screaming at me, and I wasn't strong enough to deal with her upset and anger. Me staying with her, wasn't a disrespectful act, it was me being strong, and honestly, truthfully, me.

Something very deep is going on here, for both me and her. She has expressed to me a few times now that she continues to 'hold out hope' for us, but doesn't want to.

I'm struggling with walking a fine line between being strong, and confident and loving, and pushing her. I don't want to push.

There's some really deep emotions here, and I've felt them with her, and want to build on what's started now.

Again, I don't think stopping the divorce is a good idea, nor is it my goal, but I would like to establish a relationship with her in a totally different way.

Wow, this is a hard....

- TTM

Well a lot has happened in the past few days. W and I made love again on Friday night, and I didn't spend the night.

The following morning we had coffee on my porch together and had a few laughs.

She left for the weekend to pick up the kids from her dad's in NH. I went to her house and fixed a broken kitchen light she had mentioned wasn't working anymore. I left no trace that it was me that fixed it.

When she got home, she e-mailed me, and we got together and had ice cream as a family on Monday night. That was nice.

Last night she and I sat down and agreed to stop the divorce process, and go back to a legal separation. We hammered out the details of an agreement that works for us both.

She expressed a lot of feelings for me, and about everything that's happened between us. The hurt that my being with other woman when were apart has caused her. I saw the love, and the pain in her eyes. I also saw a genuine wanting to be with me, but not until she's absolutely sure I won't stray again. She pushed away pretty hard and I stood strong.

At the end of the evening, we hugged and kissed good night.

I didn't realize till last night how much she's been working on her stuff. She talked openly about it, and she see's her side of things with surprising clarity. She told me she wants more time to work on her stuff, without me interrupting that process.

My choice is now, do I stand strong and be there when she's ready, or do I move on. Well, this isn't actually a choice for me at all. I'm in, 100% in. I love her, and want to be with her, and she's left the door open for us. I sense she's going to test me long and hard, so I'm in for the long haul. When she's ready, I'll be here. She also wants to know that she can get space when she needs it, without me going into a panic, or breaking down her door, like I have in the past.

We'll have the separation agreement finished by the end of next week, and we'll see what happens from there....


- TTM

TTM,

I've been very busy and debated calling you back. I see that you seem to be continuing on in pretty good shape by yourself. You are out of my experience range a bit as I would have never considered reconciling with my XW. I am cautiously optimistic for your situation.

Here are a couple of thoughts that I have for you. Keep working on yourself. Allow her to have the space to work on herself. I'll assume that the sex has been a mutual thing and would encourage you not to make it a priority at this point and to let her take the lead on initiating. Maybe you should have a discussion about a schedule for dating each other.

I strive now to be the best I can be, to be the bigger person, to do the right things, to lead a good life, and to be a sane and emotionally mature adult. It seems to be working well for me. There is no better thing than leading by example.

Thanks Dutch, I was at a low point when I called, but recovered quickly. Thanks just the same.

I'm doing well, and my work on myself is far from over. I still feel a great deal of anxiety when faced with being alone, I shared this with her, and she shared with me a lot of her stuff too.

Will we reconcile? I don't know for sure. I do know that the choice is now clearly mine in terms of deciding what I want, and sticking to it for as long as it takes. This has been my stumbling block in the past.

I'm just going to take it slow, and keep working on me, my strengths and growing as a person. Just like she's doing for herself.

The road ahead is unknown, but the journey so far sure has been fun!

- TTM

I can’t believe it, saved it again!! .man you are a bull dog!
Way to go, like I said before, you are my inspiration.

I know what your thinking, its not saved yet but I know it is…I just know, ok I will knock on wood just in case, but I think what ever she was going through is just about over.
Personally I think it was some sort of mid life issue but that is my opinion.

She loves you man, I think she realizes that no matter how hard she looks you are the only one for her.

Oh ya, I read hold on to your nuts, I know you read it, what did you think?
It helped with my situation a great deal.

Congrats (I know ..sorry I just cant help it…I am happy for you)

You wrote that in November 2006. In that thread you said that during your 15 year marriage, you were separated five times and after the fifth separation there was a one night stand on your part.

I totally respect your wish to mend a broken marriage but I think you are doing it the wrong way. I really enjoyed reading this current thread up until (I believe) you crossed the boundary with sex.

You said she needed the sex more and you were meeting her need by doing it. But how do you explain her walking out on you at the bar, then her asking you to leave, then you saying you want to tuck her in, and then you falling asleep with her?

That, to me, reeks of manipulation and crossing boundaries.

I am a betrayed spouse and, admitedly, I'm an angry SOB who can't think straight sometimes so take these words with a grain of salt but why don't you just continue working on yourself and let her see the changes you are making as a means to get her back? I just don't think imposing your will on her is the answer.

Thanks for your feedback.

To fully grasp this situation, you'd have to be living it. She is complicated for sure, were their boundaries crossed? Maybe. Depends on whether or not I or her felt so. After all aren't I the one that determines my own boundaries? and she hers?



She walked out of the bar because her own feelings overwhelmed her. She was moving too fast, and became overloaded dealing with her stuff. She was scared, and ran. That's what she does. It wasn't about me at all. I got to enjoy the sex with her as well too, so it's not like she was taking something from me.

As for me not leaving, that was about me standing up and saying 'I have a choice here', in the past I was so afraid of upsetting her, that I would not voice my choice, and just do what she told me to. This time I put myself WAY out there, and decided to face my fears, state my thoughts, and see what happened. Turns out, she likes me to be strong with her like that. I'm beginning to believe women like strong, confident men. Not soft mushy wimps, like I have been for a long time.

I am going to continue working on myself, but I don't need her to validate my changes, she did that last night, more than once she made statements like 'just like you used to do...', and ' I remember when you were like that...' and 'when you used to, I felt..'. The changes are here and she sees it, acknowledges it. The stumbling block right now is for her to trust me again, and that's going to take some time.

I believe trust for her comes in small, incremental ways. Consistent behavior, truth and honesty over time, being open and honest are what it will take.

- TTM

We can't walk that mile in another man's shoes and sometimes people deserve the benefit of the doubt. This is also an imperfect communication methodology that is extremely low bandwidth and usually one-sided as well. The only constant is the conclusions that people jump to and the judgments that they levy. I would argue that asking for more information is more apropos than both. But enough with the general commentary.

I concur with TTM that we cannot fully grasp the situation and dynamics by reading about it here. Not to mention complicated, most women are more irrational and at times inscrutable as well. We can't always know what they're thinking/feeling at the time. The important part about the bar scene is that you did not chase after her. I applaud you for that. To chase after her would have shown neediness.

Stay your course and hold steady.

Sorry Tim, my mind is goo from my own [censored] situation and I jumped to conclusions probably because deep down I'm just jealous of your situation.

I must have skipped over the following quote:


The other day I went and ordered that No More Mr Nice Guy from Amazon based on a recommendation from one of yall.

Just give me some leeway. You probably haven't read my main thread but I got beat up alot in my situation and, like I said, my mind is goo sometimes as a result.

Being afraid of upsetting the one you love and being a man are two very different actions. I'm trying to work on that too.

Where is your main thread?

she cheated on my three times and i still love her... i'm a pitiful example of a man but at least i can say i realize it now and i'm trying to do something about it :crosseyedcrazy:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1976251&fpart=1

/hijackoff

Well, things are progressing slowly. Which I think is to be expected. We've chatted on the phone quite a bit, and then got together last night and chatted some more. We ended up hugging as she was leaving.

In another interesting development, my DD asked me last week to go see a counselor to 'work on improving our relationship'. We've not been seeing much of each other, she stays primarily with her mother. I had asked her a month or two ago to go to counseling with me, but at that point she said to me 'I'm not interested in having a relationship with you!', so now for her to ask for us to go to counseling I think is a great step.

I'm hoping that if I can get my relationship with DD back on track, that it might open the door for W to feel more comfortable being with me again. Up to this point W has expressed her fears about what DD would be 'put through' if we did get back together again.

This keeps getting more interesting...

- TTM

I don't like the cause and effect relationship I see in that statement. It reads to me like a relationship with your DD is a means to an end (a relationship with your W).

SB,

I can see how that statement would ring of that yes. Let me explain a bit more. W has said that she senses DD being angry with even the thought of her and I being 'friends' or together again. W doesn't want to 'risk' any further damage to DD.

I'm just thinking that if DD starts to have a much improved relationship with me, that W might feel a lot less worried about the two of us together again. I don't fully understand, but right now W just needs some external validation until she can learn to give it to herself. DD getting close to me, and thinking that in spite of all the stupid things I've done, I'm a good guy, might provide enough validation for W to be with me 100% again.

We'll see....

- TTM

I don't know that that means that Tall is using his daughter to get to his wife and nothing else. On it's purest form, we want our relationships to be complete unaffected by outside influence, but it doesn't really work that way. And there is no doubt that certain events and other people's opinions can work for or against your marriage. I don't think you should try and manipulate those factors, but feeling good when those factors go your way is pretty nice.

Okay, that makes more sense and it's consistent with what I've seen you doing earlier. That's why I tried to phrase my response as how I interpreted it, without trying to assume your intent or accusing you of behaving in a specific manner. I hope that came through correctly.

I view your intent as trying to recover your entire family - not just your W.