Cherished makes a very good point.

When you go to sleep, which would make you sleep better?

Knowing you gave an honest effort and won or lost,

or knowing you just walked away shrugging your shoulders without doing a thing to try?



Somehow, inside of you there is a larger YOU.

This whole mess started with self-betrayal. You betrayed yourself when you knew you should have put forth the effort to reach out and recover the marriage after your wife's affair, and you went against yourself instead and did NOTHING except work toward destroying the marriage.

From that point forward, everything you have done has been to justify that self-betrayal.

SB

Well, it's been a few weeks since I last visited here, and I just wanted to update you guys. Before I do, I need to thank those of you who took the time to try to help me. I know that I rubbed many people the wrong way by my indifference. I appreciate the efforts of those of you who could see past that and see that I was searching for help. Thank you.

I guess the first thing to address is the no contact issue because that seemed to be a point of contention. I didn't go about it the standard way, which is to make it as difficult as possible for the other woman to contact me. The reason is that her contacting me wasn't the problem. The problem was me contacting her. I could change my phone, email, etc, and I could still contact her if I wanted to. My wife wanted to see the emails the other woman and I exchanged, and I showed her. She wasn't very happy about some of them, but she has decided she wants to know exactly who I am and what she's dealing with, even if it causes her emotional pain. I struggle with that, not wanting to hurt her, but I have agreed to share with her anything she wants to know. I sent a final email to the other woman on Monday telling her that we had to stop contacting each other. She replied and understood my position, and that's the last I've heard from her. I shared both emails with my wife. I told her I wouldn't send any more email and that if I received any, I would share them with her. Also, at my wife's request, I deleted the other woman's contact info from my phone. My wife knows that won't stop me from contacting the other woman if I really want to, but she saw it as a sign that I'm trying to get over this, ... that I'm not indifferent any more.

It's been a relief to get that behind me, and I can see now that it helps. Some of you on this forum may be tempted to ask what you could've done differently to make me see the importance of ending contact. I don't think anything. It was something I just had to figure out for myself. I eventually got to the point of realizing that if my marriage ended while still in contact with other woman, I'd have to live with the fact that the continued contact might have been the reason. I didn't want that to happen. My wife and I are still in a critical stage as far as figuring out what we want to do with our marriage, and it's not a given that we'll figure out all of our problems. If we decide to end our marriage, it'll be because of issues between us, not my continued contact with the other woman. She was distracting me from giving 100% of my attention to working on my marriage. I can see that now, and it's a lesson I had to learn myself. When I spoke with Peggy Vaughan over the phone about this, she said that continuing to contact the other woman while trying to repair the marriage was like a having a festering sore that won't go away. Ending contact is the only way to heal the sore. I see that now, and I guess I'm the kind of person that learns better from experience than from the advice of others. I'm thankful that my wife was, and still is, very patient with me. I'm sure a lot of women would've left me by now, and I'm very lucky to have a wife that's as committed to me as she is ..... VERY lucky!

The biggest issue my wife and I are facing right now is the feelings I have for the other woman. My wife knows that I still think about her, and she wishes I could replace those thoughts with thoughts for her. It's not easy, and in reading His Needs, Her Needs, it may never happen. Harley describes a difference between a woman coming out an affair and a man coming out of an affair. When the women returns to her husband and her husband starts meeting her emotional needs, he can feel fairly confident that she won't be tempted to stray again. But not so with a man returning to his wife; the man usually has a much harder time losing feelings for the other woman. Harley offers a few historical suggestions for this dichotomy including economics and polygamy, but he really doesn't know why. He says that one thing the husband and wife have to realize is the husband will be in love with two women for the rest of his life. He has seen cases where a man returns to his wife, they rebuild a happy marriage, and then 5 or 6 years later, the man contacts the other woman because he still loves her and misses her. That is depressing for both my wife and I. We had hoped we could eventually put this behind us and it would become a distant memory. The prospect of me having to fight urges to contact the other woman for the rest of my life -- that's hard to swallow. Anyways, that's an issue that my wife and I are trying to come to grips with. She's not sure she can handle it. And I don't blame her; I'm not sure if I could handle it either if the situation was reversed.

Some of you who read this might get the sense that I haven't expressed true remorse over what I did. That's true. I have been very sorry that what I did caused so much emotional pain for both my wife and me, especially my wife. But the actual affair itself, for some reason, I'm still not that sorry about it; hence, the title of the original post is still applicable. That bothers my wife because she feels if I'm not that sorry about it, it could easily happen again. I don't know. Because of the trauma this has caused both of us, I'd like to think it would never happen again, but then again, I never thought it could happen in the first place. It was one of life's curveballs that caught us both off-guard. So what do you think? I somehow feel that I SHOULD be sorry. But I'm not really. Is this normal? Will true remorse come later? If I'm not that sorry, does that mean I'm still not over the affair and I need to be extra careful? I'm looking for constructive help here. If you feel like bashing me or cursing me, please check your motives and consider refraining. I'm being honest with my feelings, but I'm a little leery to do so because of outlash I've felt before on this forum. I guess if it makes you feel good to beat up on someone or be an "I told you so," then go ahead, and I'll just have to deal with it.

In thinking about some of the negativism I've received regarding this thread, I think the reason is that a lot of people don't understand what it's like to be in a state of indifference regarding their marriage. Harley calls it the state of withdrawal in his description of The Three States of Mind in Marriage. (The other two states are intimacy and conflict.) If you've never been in the state of withdrawal, I don't think you can fully understand it. Think of having kids -- you can read all about it, you can hear other parents talk about what life is like with kids, you can even hear your own parents talk about it, but until you actually have kids of your own, you can't possibly understand exactly what it's like. I think the state of withdrawal is like that. Unless you've been in it, you can't really understand it. For example, one of the posters to this thread sarcastically suggested that I made up the term "invisible divorce" to justify my behavior. I did not. Harley calls it "emotional divorce." It's something real, and if you haven't been there, maybe it's just too difficult to imagine. Harley says that the state of withdrawal usually doesn't last very long. In my case, it lasted for a good two to three years. In hindsight, I think being in that state for so long led to an extremely apathetic attitude in me. If it's true that the state of withdrawal usually doesn't last long, then no wonder many people reading this thread couldn't understand my apathy. I may have been in an unusually extreme state of withdrawal, a state that took an unusual amount of time to come out of.

But I'm not there now. My wife and I realize that we have a long road ahead of us with no guarantees of success. We stopped going to our marriage counselor because it didn't seem like it was helping. Instead, I ordered several books that just arrived yesterday that we're both going to read together:

Surviving an Affair, Willard Harley
Love Busters: Overcoming Habits That Destroy Romantic Love, Willard Harley
The Monogamy Myth: A Personal Handbook for Recovering From Affairs, Peggy Vaughan
20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage, Steve Stephens
The Walk-Out Woman: When Your Heart is Empty and Your Dreams Are Lost, Steve Stephens

We've already read His Needs, Her Needs, and The Five Love Langages by Gary Chapman, but I read them from a state of indifference, and I should probably read them again.

Here are two issues that my wife and I are facing that if you have any thoughts on, I'd love to hear them.

1) For both of us, how to deal with the fact that I may have feelings for the other woman for the rest of my life. If I was a repeat offender and had had numerous affairs, I could see how the other women might all blend together and not seem very important. But this is the only time this has ever happened to me. When I think of significant people in my life that had an impact, the other woman ranks right up there with parents, siblings, wife, and kids. I tend to believe Harley's assessment that I'll have feelings for her for the rest of my life. How do I deal with that? How does my wife deal with that?

2) Although I'm ready to start working on our marriage, I still feel pretty flat regarding my wife. I'm happier at home alone than when she's there. I don't feel sexual attraction to her. She's more like a room-mate. For me to be in a successful marriage, I need to have the kind of feelings for her that say she's my highest priority. I should cherish her. I should want her to feel loved. I should look forward to seeing her at the end of the day. She should feel that she's the most important person in the world to me. How do I get those feelings back? Is it possible to get them back? I'm worried that we'll go through some of the books and try out some suggestions, but I'll just be going along with the program, doing things because the books say to do them, but not really having anything sink in. I'm worred that I'll gain a lot of book knowledge without it really changing my heart. It's sort of like what I described above about my having to learn by experience. Reading books is like getting advice from others. I feel a need for something more substantial, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Well, that's pretty much where we are right now. I'm "sort of" looking forward to responses to this post, but I'm wincing a little because of past non-constructive criticism. I think there are some good-hearted people who honestly want to help, and I'm willing to take the good with the bad. For those of you who do honestly want to help, thank you.

It is not like you imagine. It is just like an alcohol addiction. A recovering alcoholic who is past withdrawal does not hanker for alcohol. In fact, the very thought is sickening to me. Similarly, my husband curls his lip at any mention of the OW now in the same way. He says ewwwwwwwwww and hates any reminders of what he calls his "dark days."

HOWEVER, if an alcoholic hangs out in bars, he can TRIGGER that old feeling in a heartbeat. And if he takes a DRINK, the cravings will come right back. It is the same with an affair. This is why Dr Harley is ADAMANT about no contact, to PREVENT these triggers.

The success of your recovery depends on both of your willingness to participate in the MB program. If you waffle or mess around you probably won't recover. Even if your affair is never rekindled, your marriage would continue to be so miserable that both of you would eventually make a dash for the door.

If you both follow the program and spend 15 hours per week meeting each other emotional needs, you can fall in love again. I mean this; YOU CAN FALL IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER. And if you never let anyone else meet your intimate emotional needs, the risk of another affair will drop to zero.

If i were me, I would sign up for Dr. Harley's next MB weekend seminar in October. It is worth every penny and is the BEST in the business. [Retrouville counselors come to MB weekends for their own marriages] You will get a crash course in MB and daily access to Dr Harley thereafter. His STAFF will hold your hands through the program for as long as it takes. It made a HUGE DIFFERENCE between doing it on our own and getting guidance.

**EDIT**

Let me just make a point about what is constructive and what is not. A non-recovered person is probably NOT the best judge of what is constructive.

So far, you only know how to have an affair; the folks here know how to RECOVER A MARRIAGE. If someone is telling you something you really LIKE, I would do a GUT CHECK to see if they were just telling you what you, a wayward, wants to hear, or if it really is constructive.

So please keep an open mind, grow a thicker skin, and pay attention to everything, EXCEPT name calling and personal attacks; we all agree that is not constructive.

**EDIT**

That's likely because you have no empathy.

Can you shovel in the food while watching a special on TV about starving children?

brw,

You seem committed to the idea that you will "always" love the other woman.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe somewhere down the line you will discover that you NEVER loved her.

The possibilities of what you will find in the future are multifaceted, and you should leave the door open to discovery.

Right now, you are in the earliest phases of no contact. This is a phase where you will try to hang on to the fantasy, because you need to


justify


what you have done.

Of course, you cannot look at it right now and say, "it was wrong, I am sorry, it was not worth it". Because to do that right now means that your self-deception and self-betrayal DID occur, and you are not ready to face it yet.

Trust me.

You betrayed yourself, and you betrayed your wife. You will reach a point where you are ready to accept this, and you will reach a point where you will be able to address the OW's role in this matter. Sooner or later, this happens. It even happens in affair marriages. The couple ultimately reaches the point of facing their bad decisions, bad behavior, and betrayal of themselves and their own morals. There is no avoiding it, and whether you admit it aloud, or see it only when you lie awake in the dark and consider it for hours while tossing and turning and trying desperately to fall asleep - you will know it, and you will regret what you have done.


You cannot betray yourself and not regret it, not be sorry for it.


You cannot call yourself human, cause this much pain, and not be sorry for it.

You will reach that point - whether you admit it or not.


SB

Hi schoolbus, no, I'm not "committed" to the idea that I'll love her for the rest of my life. I'm only staring at Harley's words and wondering if they're really true. I hope not, but they are very sobering for both me AND my wife:

from "His Needs, Her Needs," copyright 1986, pp. 170-171:

iam, what the h are you trying to post?? That's twice now, and I'm dying to know. How about if you let me know what time you'll post next. Give me a day or two advance notice. I'll try to be online at the same time and read your post before it gets edited. K?

brwn, he posted some puking smilies.

Did you READ MY POST about alcoholics? Because that is how Dr Harley explains the nature of the addiction when he EXPOUNDS. An alcoholic is ALWAYS IN LOVE with alcohol. But those feelings lie DORMANT until they are TRIGGERED by CONTACT. This is why an alcoholic cannot have one drink, this is why an adulterer should never have contact. You don't sit around and pine for your adultery partner every day.

Do you want to focus on RECOVERY instead of how you are pining for the OW? Because pining away for the destructive substance IS A DISTRACTION FROM YOUR RECOVERY. Do you want work on recovery?

Did you even READ my post?

Why provide the smilie if you constantly edit it?

That's what I said.

I say that because your statement makes me feel that way.

What you say amounts to this.....

"Yes, I raped someone, but it was the best sex I ever had so I don't regret it"

I hope your spouse wakes up and sends you to curb and can find someone who won't abuse them.

actually, that is a great question. I most always understand the mods here and have learned to work with them quite well...but I don't get how the use of an emoticon that the site has chosen to include could be against the TOS.

Perhaps Justuss can clear that up for the board.

Brwmb:

Glad you came back. And realized a couple of things.

Enlightment sometimes happens in a flash, and sometimes it takes a while to creep up on you.

Stay NC with the OW. Your feelings will change in time. And your fear that you will "always" be pining away for OW? Dr Harley is facing truth when he recognizes and explains that a WS will remember OW. Why not? They were important to you at one time.

But that will fade the longer you maintain NC. You not pining for your HS GF are you? No. You might have fond memories of her, but your not thinking about flying to her home and sweeping her off her feet. You think like that about OW NOW because her memory is still fresh. Let it recede in your rearview mirror some and you feel the same way as that older GF.

Your BS may divorce you. That is her choice. It's yours too. You CAN work hard to fix your M, and your BS may not ever want to do the work. You can D her, if you want. However, you should AT LEAST give it the time and the methods explained by MB to fix the issues in your M. And yes, your BS needs to work on herself too.

Do I think about my OW? Yes. I can remember some of the things about her fondly. But she tried to destroy me, my W, my son, and my M. I'm guilty of getting involved with her, I own my choices. Whatever fondness I can imagine for her now is blotted out by that NEW knowledge.

You can get there to.

LG

Folks, use of the smiley is just fine. Use of the puking smiley with personal attacks is not.

The puking smiley is kinda gross. I would not miss that one at all if you disposed of it.

Just lay off roll eyes.

:RollieEyes: :RollieEyes: :RollieEyes:

whatevah!!

:RollieEyes: :RollieEyes:

Hi Melody, I DID read your post, and I'm sorry I didn't reply. I got a little sidetracked with the editing of iam's posts and the smiley issue. I appreciate your advice and wanted to follow up with you.

I understand your analogy with alcoholism, but I've seen it work both ways. Both my best friend from grade school and my brother are recovering alcoholics. My best friend wants nothing to do with alchohol and has bad memories of it that keep him away. My brother, on the other hand, fights his temptation daily. He is not sickened by the thought of alcohol. He wishes he could return to drinking at a moderate level.

I think recovering affair spouses react differently as well. For instance, I've read some posts on here where a betrayed wife feels incredible hostility towards the OW and wants to vent. My wife does not. In fact just the other day, she said she prays for the OW in the hope that she'll see what she's doing is wrong and will change her life around. As for me, I don't think I'll get to the point of curling my lip at the thought of the OW like your husband does. I've been reading Surviving an Affair, and I'm thinking of the part near the beginning that describes the affairs continuum. I think if my affair had been closer to the one-night stand kind of affair with very little emotional attachment, it would be easier for me to feel yucky about the OW. But mine was much more towards the soul-mate kind of affair where the OW and I developed a strong emotional bond. Even though I realize I can't continue a relationship with her, I think I will always have feelings for her. She was not trying to destroy my marriage, never wanted me to leave my wife, and felt responsible for the emotional trauma my wife and I have been going through. I respect her for that.

I'm glad you pointed out how critical it is to follow the MB program. I'm not sure if we'll follow it to the T, but I take seriously your point about waffling around and not recovering. That's one of the things I worry about -- that my wife and I will work on things for a while, and they'll eventually fall back to the way they were. I realize that marriage is a lot of work, but I wish it weren't. I've heard of those rare stories where two people fall in love and stay in love for life -- grandpa still pinches grandma on the rear and they have a great time together without trying. Wishful thinking, I know, but I still wish.....

Your point about spending 15 hours/wk together, ... I remember reading about that in His Needs, Her Needs. When my wife and I talked about that, we were like, "15 hours/wk??? Are you kidding? Where are we going to find 15 hours/wk for each other?" It still seems like a tall order. We haven't figured out how to carve 15 hours out of our week to spend time alone together. Back in college when we were dating, it was easy. But now, it seems like there's so many things that need to get done just to stay afloat, ..... I don't know. Maybe when we're retired it'll be easier, but it seems really difficult right now.

Thanks for the referral to the MB seminar. We can't go that weekend, but I'll keep watching for the 2009 dates.

Your point about focusing on recovery instead of thoughts of the OW is well taken. You are right about it being a distraction. Just as continued contact with the OW was a distraction, so is thinking about her. What it comes down to is I'm still in MENTAL contact with her. I do think about her often, wondering what she's up to, how things are going in her life, etc. It's not so hard to "not contact" her, but it is much harder to not THINK about her. I can control my actions easier than I can control my thoughts. Do you have any suggestions for shutting down the mental contact?

Hi iam, in spite of how you meant it, I think the puking smiley is kinda cute!! It's amazing what they can make those little guys do.

I'm sorry that my post led to the reaction you had. I think most people who post here are genuinely looking for help. If my plea for help causes you to react with disgust, then maybe you need some help just like I do. Or in your words, maybe you lack empathy as well and could shovel food while watching starving children.

Let me ask you. Would you rather have me write honest feelings here and ask for how to deal with them? Or would you rather me fake it and say how sorry I am and how badly I feel when I don't really mean it. Seriously, which would you rather have me do?

I HAVE been struggling with why I don't feel remorse, thinking I should and wondering why I don't. I read a section from Surviving an Affair that makes me feel that I'm not alone (from p. 84):


Anyways, iam, I don't know your current situation, and I don't fault you for your reaction. If you're in an emotional state like I've been in the last couple of months, I can understand. It's ok. A few weeks ago, comments like yours had a very upsetting effect on me, but I'm better now, and like Melody says, I have to grow a thicker skin -- maybe I have already!!

In case it helps, let me give you a return smiley...

Hope you feel better!

Hi Schoolbus, thanks for your thoughts. I think I need to clarify how I feel. I AM sorry for what happened. I AM sorry for the pain it caused. My life seems so messed up right now, I wish I had never met the other woman. I think what it comes down to is intention. I had no intention of this happening. In hindsight, I see how my choices led to the current situation. But my intention at the beginning was to try to help my marriage. I see now how foolish I was, but in the beginning, it was never my intention. If I had set out with the mindset of "I'm in a bad marriage, and I'm going to look for another woman who can satisfy my needs," then, yes, I think I'd feel deeply sorry for my actions. I would feel incredible remorse for rebelliously turning away from my marriage. But as it is, I feel sort of like Pinocchio the puppet who set out on the right path but became ensnared by unwise counsel. Again, I accept full responsibility for my decisions. They were mine, I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm not tryin to justify my actions. Does that help clarify things?