You know, that metabolism thing is a pain in the backside.

The gray hair thing is an annoyance....and you get wrinkles to go with it. And, the metabolism thing....and your joints aren't what they were.

You play hard, you get hurt. And those injuries accumulate. Things just don't work like they used to. It is a problem when you need to walk or run or ride a bike and you have lower back/hip/knee issues. That's where I've been for a year.

So, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a man's face is good enough for the world to look at but a woman's face isn't. Why don't they spend time and money on makeup, spread it on for others to see, and then spend time and money to take it off? If they don't, why should we.

If a man with gray hair looks distinquished, why does a woman with gray hair look old?

(BTW, I've told my boyfriend that, if he wants a blonde girlfriend, he can pay for the high lights. I'm not getting trapped into that money drain. His check is lots bigger than mine.)

Why do it then?

I wouldn't.

Exactly! I was diagnosed with RA last year and some days (especially when it's gonna rain) I can barely move. It just sux getting older. I've always said I was gonna grow old gracefully -- spoken like a true youngster. LOL

Ok.

This is about EN's right? Please check out the goddess thread ladies. It's about celebrating your womanhood and NOT giving into old age. It facing it with a smile and courage.

But, Flamingo is struggling with her weight. She gained much before the birth of our DS15, and didn't really lose it for a long time. The infidelity diet helped some, but US working together made more of a difference. She has made great strides.

But I wanted to pull this out of that thread:


Now, that's not talking about weight. But its talking about P/A and how you CAN work together to get to a better spot for both of you.

That's why they are called EN's. Not afterthoughts. Or maybes. Or not WORTH MY EFFORTS.

I never expect nor expected Flamingo to be a supermodel. I do appreciate her putting in the effort to look her best. And I show her that appreciation.

LG

Do the two of you work out together or have you worked out some sort of plan? I want to lose weight (badly) but I'm not terribly overweight and Ike likes the way that I look so he doesn't see a problem. However, I do and it's effecting how I feel about EVERYTHING. I'm really lazy and forgetful about exercising and I've talked with Ike about exercising with me, but he's a very tall, thin guy (6'4 175lbs) who can eat what he wants so the last thing he remembers is to remind me that it's time to work out. He eats all the time and I tend to eat with him (LOL).

So, sorry to t/j here, but I was wondering if you and Flamingo had some sort of plan to help her with her weight.

Thanks!

Moment of radical honesty:

I don't know that I've ever been given that many affirmations - especially by the men in my life. Maybe if I had, all this would matter more.

My dad didn't do it. He was an unloved, unwanted child.

My x didn't do it. His top five needs were Domestic Support and he could not accept that I didn't keep house like his mother. He had no other needs.

Bachelor #1 didn't really care.

The Diplomat would rather have Recreational Companionship than Attractive Spouse.

No man has ever really affirmed my feminitiy.

Maybe that's why I just don't get the make-up thing. However, my hair is lighter in my self-image than it is in my mirror - thanks to it getting it darker as I have gotten older - got darker so it can turn gray - that makes NO sense.

I think that women dictate what men find attractive.

I saw a stand-up comedian, I forget who, who made the point that Marilyn Monroe at her peak would be considered "fat" today.

Then along came "Twiggy" and others like her.

Men do not dictate how women should look...we take what women present and run with it.

Well, I'm 36 years old, the crow's feet are setting in, and the hair is greying (has been since my mid 20's); the metabolism took a nose dive as soon as my son was born--or maybe even conceived.

I color my hair, because I wanna, I now wear makeup, because I wanna, I buy nicer clothes, because I wanna, I lost weight, because I wanted to and because my WH expressed that his desire for me was low PARTIALLY due to my weight (I was probably ~170lb on a 5'5" frame). I now weigh ~155lb and have curly blond hair and still wear LOW MAINTENANCE, face brightening makeup, cause I wanna.

It takes maybe 5 minutes to do my makeup, and another 5 to do my hair. I feel good when I look in the mirror. Could I stand to lose more weight? You betcha, and I probably will TRY, but I'm nowhere near OBESE. I'm actually more concerned about my physical fitness level, than my weight.

When I NOW think about losing weight for an ACTIVELY WS, it's a waste of time, because they are making excuses for their poor choices and behavior by placing that on their BS. BUT, if I had the benefit of a loving, "F" WS coming to me concerned about my health and how attracted he was to me, THAT would spurn me into action.

Even better, if that ficticious "F" WS came to me and said "Honey, I'd like for us to both find a healthier way to live, be more active and more physically fit--maybe even push our sex life into high gear"--well, THAT would be refreshing and supportive. I would have loved that.

This is an interesting topic and I'm glad that someone broached it. I've been reading along.

I think that an attractive spouse is a bigger EN for my H than he cares to admit to himself or to others. I did have him fill out the EN questionaire awhile ago, and he buried it close to the end. But, from watching him, I think its a bigger EN of his than he cares to admit to himself-- probably because as someone mentioned, it makes you seem "shallow".

I will be the first to admit, that I'm not much of a girly-girl either. I was a tom boy growing up-- I had a brother, and most of the kids my age in my neighborhood were boys. At 7-8 years old, I was running around the neighborhood, huge tangles in my hair, shirt off, dirty. (now, the shirt off part was more "acceptable" when I was little than it is now...). It was just who I was. I played sports all through high school. I never played barbies, I was too busy with tonka trucks in the mud and playing wiffle ball and basketball. I don't think I ever owned a doll. I just have never been much of a "girl".

Since D-day (and I was the FWW), and coming here, I've become more in tune to my H's ENs. I started fixing my hair more, wearing make up more, and even buying more flattering clothing. Prior to my A, I had fallen into a trap of wearing jeans and a t-shirt most days, and minimal make up. Most of the time I pulled my hair up in a ponytail while it was still wet.

Well, H noticed, and he liked it. I've kept it up, because he likes it and because it does make me feel a bit better about myself... I feel more attractive, and that gives me more confidence. I don't know if its really that I AM more attractive all done up, or if it is the confidence it instills in me that makes me "more attractive" or both. Probably both.

My make up routine for work is a pretty "natural" look that is easy to do and low-maintence (no mirror checking all day, I don't really have time). My hair is now long (way hubby likes it) and I dry it and put a few products in it so it behaves. He tends to really like blondes, but seeing as my hair is jet black, I'm not sure that is reality without me buying a wig... I'm still sort of a hair idiot, but I'm working on that. I actually bought a curling iron and used it a few weeks back .

When we go out in the evenings, I get even more dressed up. I learned how to do the "smoky" make up look, and give my hair some curls. It takes me a lot longer to do, so it is reserved for special occasions and not an everyday thing. I did it this past weekend when we went out for hubby's birthday. Admittedly, it takes me almost 2 hours to get ready from shower time to done when I do myself all up-- which is ridiculously long, I feel, for everyday. That may also be because I am sort of a spaz when it comes to these things...

I've found a balance between high maintenance and tomboy that I like.

Can't really comment on the weight thing too much. I am one of those "lucky" people that hasn't really ever gained any weight-- I've weighed about the same thing since about 7th grade (when I stopped growing). BUT, I also am still in my 20's, and haven't had any kids, so that may be why...

H has gained some weight recently, about 20 lbs. When he went on the "infidelity diet" he dropped to 160... on his 6'2" frame. He was ridiculously skinny-- it was actually quite unattractive. His normal weight is about 180. He's about 200 now. I actually prefer a man with some "meat" rather than skinny... so I don't think the 200 looks bad, but he wants to lose about 20 again. I'd be OK with that, or OK with him staying where he is. He's sexy to me either way

E.

A couple of points.

A. I have a REAL PROBLEM with physical attractiveness being a top EN. As well as financial security.

B. The MEDIA dictates what the mainstream public finds attractive.

Yeah, MM WAS overweight. But, having meat on your bones was attractive back then, I guess. Todays thing, "baby got back" just doesn't do it for me. BUt it does for many. And the Twiggy thing comes and goes. Thank God for it going. For mans vision sake and womans health sake. Same with haircuts. I was in high school around the Dorothy Hamill haircut craze and STILL love that look, though I grew out of the Farrah look.

I guess its alot like clothes. And I think woman are a lot more susceptible to this. Don't you look at certain styles and say to yourself, MAN! How in Gods name did I EVER wear that??

One more thing on this overweight thing. It is FAR from proven that being overweight leads to shortened life span. While it does lead to certain diseases, several studies have pointed out that being overweight doesn't neccesarily lead to a shorter life. Now I'm sure there are all kinds of specifics related to it, so I am sure there are studies that contradict this finding.

And being the ideal weight for your height and age doesn't neccesarily mean that you don't have too much fat. You can be 5'0 100 lbs and have too much body fat.

Since this is a topic I have introduced in more than one thread, let me weigh in one more time, please.

1. There is a difference between being overweight and obese. Obese is repulsive and overweight isn't. As we age, diet and job and lifestyle combine to make many of us oveweight. Gluttony and sometimes chemistry combine to make us obese if we are. Overweight make not hurt us healthwise, but obesity will.

2. My wife has stretch marks. I call them mommy marks and they are exactly that. They do not detract from my view of her because of how she got them; bearing my kids. She is now a size 9/10 depending on who made the dress. Big deal. Me, I am about 12/15 pounds over where I should be. Big deal.

3. Joke alert.

Husband and wife sitting on a beach watching; stone fox scuttles by showing off. Wife say with a sigh, "I'll never look that good again." Husband says with a kind smile, "Neither will she."

Nuf said.

Larry

Good one Larry. PA is high on my H's EN, it's on mine as well.

Back in the 80's I had a "Glamour Shots" photo done, with the 80's hair and all, makeup CAKED on, etc. I gotta admit, I looked like a movie star and the picture was fabulous... problem was... it wasn't me.

BUT... over the years my husband has made the comment more than once, I wish you looked like you did in that picture EVERYDAY. :RollieEyes: He doesn't understand how LONG it took them to get me there, and that it would be impossible to recreate that on a daily basis. Nevermind the fact that the "Big Hair Texas Style" do is no longer "in". The biggest hurdle of all is that it was almost 20 years ago!

I work for a large law firm so I have to dress up, makeup, etc. every day during the week. I spend very little time on my hair though because it's so long. I've been lucky in that department, just wash and go and my natural color is great (even with the new silver streaks). He loves my professional look.

On the weekends, I prefer shorts, t-shirt, jeans, etc., but I WILL change into slacks or a suit if we're going out somewhere together.

I just can't be (and have no desire to be) Ms. Glamorous every day.

Interestingly enough, his first OW WAS into glamour. She had the $$ to do it. Hair, nails, clothes, BOTOX, country club membership. It was hard on my self-esteem. But then I realized her beauty was only outward (cliche, I know) but it's true. Her behavior was ugly and people around her figured that out soon enough. (Besides that, my DH told me later that she looked like crap without her makeup and her hair done.)

Since all of that, my DH has called me lovely more than once.

Now... I do try and look my best, but I'll never be and have never been, a glamorous woman.

I am MUCH more open minded NOW in what I would find attractive in my wife then when I first met her.

I am so close to losing her now, that if she walked through that door 250 lbs, I would jump at the chance. Hey shes close to 50 years old, and ON A LIE DETECTOR test, I would state, without hesitation, that she is the most beautiful woman in the world. I just don't see any imperfections anymore. She is too much a part of my life for me to fret over physical "non perfectness".

Like I've said before, she gets better looking as she gets older. In fact, I know she'll be better looking tonight when I get home than she was this morning when I left for work.

*sigh*


And I worked so hard at the pun and nobody noticed. . .



Larry

Okay, so I married my DH at 28. I am only 5 ft tall weighed then about 100 lbs.
I am a very solid type. I was a gymnast when I was a child{even in the Olympics} and very muscular. I gained about 15 lbs. and was told by him that was one of the reasons for his affair.
YEAH WHATEVER,BUDDY! WHEN WE MARRIED HE WAS 185. He was then at 240. He is 6'4 and could stand a few. He is now 275. How dare he try to say that!
He quickly reneged on that.

I agree with this. Also, it's not just the media, but the cosmetic companies and fashion designers - where there's money to be made. In all honesty, being a woman sucks. Even top executive level men can get by with one or 2 identical suits, a few shirts, ties and changes of underwear and one pair of shoes. In some businesses, women can't wear the same $500 suit more than once or twice - and every SINGLE outfit has a unique pair of shoes to go with it. And this has become the standard of physical attractiveness.

Also, physical attractiveness is not just 1 thing. It's not - she's attractive but she's not. I'll use myself as an example, though there's no way this won't come off without me sounding like some sort of vanity princess thing but please bear with me. I have had the fortune of being tall, thin and having decent facial bone structure. I have also aged reasonably well - most people are shocked to find out I have a 20 yo DS. I have been told I'm attractive. But I don't wear makeup; I wear jeans to work (nature of my job) and I rarely go to events that require dressing up. When I do get dressed up and made up, I am, shall we say, hot.

Now, my WstbxH always resented that I rarely wore make up or fancy clothes. I also kept my hair longer than what looks best as it is easier to put it in a ponytail and go. If I do go out, I can put it in a gorgeous up-do that looks great, but on a day to day basis, it's rather plain and perhaps a little sloppy even. He complained about this many times. OW is the opposite of me. She's short and anorexically skinny to the point that her body is shaped like a little boy's. Her face is wrinkled and assymetrically shaped. BUT, she has a very stylish hairdo and spends $200 a month on her dye/highlight job. She also wears expensive dresses and shoes and makeup everyday. Despite the getup, I guarantee I am more "attractive" than her, but she clearly puts the effort in where I don't.

So perhaps Wstbx's EN for a PA spouse was not necessarily an "attractive" spouse, but more for one that works on her attractiveness and values that particular trait for themselves.

In any event, the idea of going to that much effort for my appearance is nauseating. I also despise shopping - even more than having teeth pulled. I also have way better things to spend my money on. So isn't there some sort of EN that reflects this in me? For instance, if wstbx were still "DH" (or if there were ever to be another one), why is it ok for them to have an EN that puts this imposition on me? Wouldn't it be just as ok for me to have an EN that protects me from this?

Why is it an imposition on you? If you know that this is a top EN for him, and it's your choice to date and/or marry this guy...then you are agreeing to put the imposition on yourself...no?

As far as protecting you from this...that's your job.

Not 2x4's...just observations.

Suppose it's an EN that moved up later in life. As in, when we were first married it didn't matter but now that middle age has struck, it does.

And yes, if it is a dating-stage relationship, I most certainly would NOT put that imposition on myself and instead look elsewhere.

And to be fair, I am quite upfront about my lifestyle and everybody who meets me can see straight away that I'm no glamour queen. (but I'm definitely still attractive - there is a difference)

Tabby:

Interesting post.

And should be put into Pepperband's "Notable Posts" thread because it SO Clearly indicates where your M went wrong.

It was your H's choice to have an A. But the discontentment in your M was obvious.

We can start with this:

Your H complained about it, you didn't do anything about it, and its HIS FAULT.

Which leads to this:

That was the effort that was needed to continue your M. Flamingo "got it" after Dday and learning about MB. She doesn't lie awake at night "Am I thin enough? Beautiful enough?" But she knows what she needs to do. And believe me, I don't require ALOT. Just MORE than she did for so MANY years.

And this speaks volumes as well:


Yes. You already caught your man, and now you don't have to do anything. And if he doesn't like it, it's HIS problem. No. That's why it's an EN. And it's HIS EN. Yours don't matter in this case. You can choose to meet it or ignore it. You get to deal with the results of that choice either way.

Dr. Harley is pretty explict in this area. He states that if your H likes you to do up your hair, THIS WAY, then why do up your hair THAT WAY. As Silent stated, and as Flamingo does now, it takes about 10 minutes each day to go from the pony tail to the hairdoo. And that ten minutes makes all the difference in the world to me.

She does it because it pleases ME. I take care of things around the house because it PLEASES HER. She meets one of my EN's and I try to meet her EN's. This isn't tit for tat. It's trying to make the other person happy in the marriage. Her looking frumpy makes me unhappy. The house being a wreck makes her unhappy. Her EN isn't P/A, it's Domestic Support.

And Tabby? The media? So what. What I find attractive has nothing to do with what the media might think. I make my own choices. So does my W.

LG

Man, I must have been real drunk at the time, I don't remember saying that.........at all. I gotta lay off the mescal.