Well, let's look at it from a male perspective.

I absolutely HATE shaving everyday....so I just don't. I shave about once or twice a week. If my W said "I wish you would shave more often"......I probably wouldn't start doing it every day, but I would POJA with KMS to come up with a solution. If we agreed that I will shave 3-4 times a week...then so be it.

How many people who believe mascara is necessary for love, life, and happiness have ever blinked while putting it on, scratched their eyeball, gotten an infection, had it treated, and ended up hiding in the dark on pain pills?

I bet you $5 that your idea of beautiful IS shaped by the media. I would love to sell you some underwater farmland in Florida. Don't let the aligators scare you off

I see your point. However, at no time in my life did I dress up or wear makeup other than special occassions. I was this way when I met WstbxH. I was this way when we dated and I was this way when we married. So why is it that just because he gets a new EN, it trumps mine? Because I really and truly do despise shopping and I really and truly cannot where dresses, makeup or perfume at my job (I work in a lab).

On the flip side of this as well, he was extremely stingy about money. Sure he liked to see my hair done but he also used to rake me across the coals if I went to anything other than the cheap places that don't even wash your hair. And even then he thought I should be able to cut it myself and save money :RollieEyes:. See, he also had the EN to have complete and utter control of the finances. When I bought a new suit for a job interview - on sale for $300 AND had to buy the matching shoes, he just about divorced me on the spot. He LOVED the suit, but hated the expense. OW was already this way when he met her so I don't think this is as big of a problem. Or it could be - he had no clue with me how much this stuff actually costs.

Again, I caught him as myself. In jeans, hair down and a little longish and not made up. So if it was that important to him, he should have moved on. I don't think it was at the time. It may be now, but it wasn't them - the first time he even saw me in a dress with make up was on our wedding day!!!!


That's great that both of you are meeting each others ENs. But what if your EN is the opposite of hers? Who's EN trumps who's?




[/quote]

A little dramatic don't you think. lol

I think that the reason that women get upset when men say that PA is a EN is justified... to a point. It can be taken too far where you are changing "who the person is". I all about meeting ENs... but I think it is ridiculous to expect someone to change the essence of their being and beliefs to meet someone else's ENs.

As an example... as I've said before, I am more of a "tomboy". My morning routine is pretty minimal. I do dry my hair and toss a few products in it to get it to behave (take max 5 mins) and my make-up routine for every day takes about 5-10 mins max and is a pretty "natural" look. I do occasionally get all "gussied up" when we are going out, but that is not the norm for me, nor am I particularly "comfortable" all gussied up (I'm the girl that can't walk well in heel and ends up twisting her ankle...).

Now, if my H suddenly decided he wanted a high-maintenance woman-- someone that spend an hour plus getting ready every day-- wielding curling irons, eye liner, etc etc, and wore heels and skirts everyday (you know the kind-- they look like they are going out for a night on the town even if they are only going grocery shopping, and have to put on their eye make up to get the mail)-- that's just not me. At all. Some women like that. I don't, I'd be terribly uncomfortable, and well, miserable.

I just couldn't do it. Now, I know my H likes my hair longer, and I've thought about chopping it just to make it easier to deal with, but I keep it longer because I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, and I know he prefers it long. But there's no way that he could convince me to wear heels and a skirt and full fledged make up and curl my hair, etc EVERYDAY just because it was an EN of his.

I'd tell him to take that EN and go find someone better to meet it because I'm not the woman for him then.

The same is true for women with the "financial support" EN. If you marry someone that has a low-paying job that is content with it and has no intentions of becoming a high powered executive that makes tons of money-- asking him to do so just because you want financial support is ludicrous.

I can see how sometimes these ENs might change over the course of a M. And maybe, just maybe, if that EN becomes THAT important to one spouse, and the other spouse just CAN'T meet it (and I think that PA and financial support might be the only two where you really have to "change yourself" and who you are to meet them)-- then it might be time to think about a no-fault D. (NOT AN A!!).

It depends. I think with those two ENs you also have to put POJA in effect. If my H asked me to become a high-maintenance girly-girl I would laugh him out of the house, sorry. Not gonna happen. But, I will put on a natural amount of make up and keep my hair longer, and wear fashionable (but comfortable and practical) clothing instead of chopping my hair, no make up, and sweats. That's fine-- and that's POJA.

My 2 cents.

E.

" see your point. However, at no time in my life did I dress up or wear makeup other than special occassions. I was this way when I met WstbxH. I was this way when we dated and I was this way when we married. So why is it that just because he gets a new EN, it trumps mine?"

Maybe your husband was fine with your looks and level of beauty treatments until he saw someone that took a lot of time with beauty. Then, he could never go back to "plain natural beauty"

There is such a thing as "learning about beauty treatment", "learning to dress attractive", and "learning to walk gracefully", etc, etc.....

Even if we woman go for more natural beauty it is good to learn all about enhanced beauty like hi-lites in our hair, great hairstyles, great clothing, etc. There is nothing wrong with learning.

Tab, you showed to your husband that he was not WORTH CHANGING FOR or LEARNING ABOUT BEAUTY FOR. You feel he either takes you as you are sans beauty, or leaves you.

Those cheap $10.00 cuts are the ugliest of the ugly. I cannot imagine looking like I am ""developmentally delayed" by having those hacks chop my hair! Why save money if you are just going to look ugly! Home hair dye is the same way. Why look insane by dying your own hair! Time to spend a little money to look GOOD.

NO!

Hey, it's happened to me more than once.

:crosseyedcrazy:

Maybe I'm just uniquely gifted but this is for real. That could be part of the reason I don't do all that stuff on a regular basis. Sometimes I get moisturizer or foundation too close to my eyes and they water which causes my mascara to run.

You let some doctor numb your eyelid so he can get mascara debris out of an infected scratch and then send you home w/ a bandage and pain pills. Then, see what you think about all that paint.

I got my hair cut in the highest style. The salon was so good they cut it WELL so that I only need 5 minutes drying it and styling it with iron or styling round brush. It is hi-lighted in three great colors. Simple to care for and always looks perfect with MINIMAL time spent on it. That is what a great hairstyle and haircut can do.

If you have never been to a high class salon, you won't be able to understand what I am talking about here.

I see your point. However, at no time in my life did I dress up or wear makeup other than special occassions. I was this way when I met WstbxH. I was this way when we dated and I was this way when we married. So why is it that just because he gets a new EN, it trumps mine? Because I really and truly do despise shopping and I really and truly cannot where dresses, makeup or perfume at my job (I work in a lab).

On the flip side of this as well, he was extremely stingy about money. Sure he liked to see my hair done but he also used to rake me across the coals if I went to anything other than the cheap places that don't even wash your hair. And even then he thought I should be able to cut it myself and save money . See, he also had the EN to have complete and utter control of the finances. When I bought a new suit for a job interview - on sale for $300 AND had to buy the matching shoes, he just about divorced me on the spot. He LOVED the suit, but hated the expense. OW was already this way when he met her so I don't think this is as big of a problem. Or it could be - he had no clue with me how much this stuff actually costs.


Tabby, I know EXACTLY what you mean. Its the same thing in MY marriage, and I bet in others as well.

I was NEVER a dresser when we dated. I was a sweat pants, bandana kind of guy. I was in my mid twenties, though. I NO LONGER dress like that now. But when we first married, I mean AS SOON AS THE WEDDING RING WAS ON.....she wanted me to change. I mean she started buying clothes that I WOULD NEVER EVER WEAR, IT JUST WASN'T ME. But now, 22 years later, and my marriage in such deep trouble, I realize that, yeah, the clothes were just not ME, but then, at that point, ME had become.....WE. I should have just dressed the way she wanted me to. So what? I ditch the sweats, bandana, shave and put on the neat clothes she thought I looked good in.....and I would have gotten a WHOLE LOT OF WOMAN in return. A whole lot of support, a whole lot of love and friendship. Instead, I let my EGO get in the way...and started laying the destructive road to marital discord.

Let me tell you, NOW? At this point in my marriage? I would give my LIFE to have my wife think enough about me that she would buy me something to make me MORE attractive to her. I mean, God would have answered my prayers. I spent so much stupid time "trying to be ME, that I completely overlooked that I SHOULD have been trying to be WE. When I exchanged those vows, I gave UP a part of me, to be a part of we. I had forgotten that. I made a big, big mistake. A stupid mistake. A mistake I regret so so much right now.

PS: My wife is big time stingy too. Isn't it so friggen annoying? It runs in her family. Her brother lost his fiancee at the alter because of it. He was SO BAD, that he would YELL at her if she bought her MAKEUP NOT ON SALE. Or if she didn't buy the CVS brand. I always thought makeup was a pretty personal choice, no??

Disrespectful on a number of points!

Entirely OT...

About how much does this cost you to keep up Stellakat? I've thought about getting a more "fashionable" cut..... right now my hair is just long with long layers in the back and angled in the front... and no dye (Its pretty much jet black, so I'm not sure how much color you can put in it...).

At least the cut part I've thought about, but I'm pretty darned bad at "picking" something that would look good on me, so I'd really be at the mercy of the stylist. My hair has no volume whatsoever (but is very sleek), and I'd like a cut that gives me some volume as well as "takes away" from my nose (I have a longer nose that sort of dominates my face... my only feature I really don't like... thanks dad...).

Anyways, about how often do you have to get it cut, and how much money to you pay? Right now I go to a very basic salon, and have been getting the same cut for years... just time for a change, ya know?

E.

I don't know what s paid but I know highlighting isn't cheap....foil is even more....3 colors is even more. A good salon in my area charges $45-75 for just a cut. A friend of mine figures she spends $200 for color and cuts - short hair and it's colored - not highlighted. I don't want to know what she'd pay for highlights.

It isn't cheap. And many of us don't have the money for it.

Stella, your post got all under my skin. Maybe it's my issue. Maybe you had your nose in the air. I don't know. But if I wasn't familiar with your good stuff on many other posts, this would have turned me against you. BIG TIME.

E, your hair sounds beautiful!

I only give MY experiences at the $10.00 salons. Last time they chopped my bangs so ugly I had to wait a year for them to grow out enough to correct them. (I looked stupid and very DD) this was 15 years ago...the last time I went to those places. Never again.

For a decent salon, It costs me $45.00 every two months to get a good cut. Then, $60.00 four or five times a year for the color touch ups. Then once a year maybe $105.00 for all over new color, if I want to do it. It takes 2 hours for the professional stylists to do my hi-lighting.

I found my good salons by seeing a great fantastic haircut on another woman and asking for the name of her stylist. If they are good, it shows on hair they cut! Then I go try the sdtylist myself. I have had bad luck once where the stylist and I did not mesh but otherwise great.

Since hair grows about half an inch per month, they must have messed up 6 inches of bangs.

And this is my fault how??? Basically you are saying that with respect to adultery, if the reason for it is because the husband changed his mind about what type of beauty he prefered, then it's ok?



I wish I knew how to quote from 2 different posters. Someone else described how this isn't them. Well, this isn't me either.

Those $10 cuts were all I was allowed to spend, and even then it was a big argument. And yes, I home colour my hair as well - probably the only "beauty" treatment I gave myself. Each time resulted in a screaming match about money. If I didn't do it, he would pick at my grey hairs and insult me. So I did it and I actually prefer it coloured now. But to spend the money on a fancy salon cut and/or colour - that would have been the biggest LB I could have ever done to him. As it was he freaked every time I did get it cut - especially if I gave the girl a tip.

And to reitterate, I am actually very attractive. Especially for my age, which is often mistaken for being 5-10 years younger.

One could also say that if it were that important for him to see me dressed up, he could have actually attended some of the weddings, funerals and other events we were invited to or expected to show up at. He expected to spend his entire life outside of work planted on the sofa in front of the television and anything that interfered with that was a tremendous imposition. And yes, this started AFTER he said "I do". He didn't even go to my father's funeral because there was a hockey game on tv that day.

So don't tell me I should have somehow materialized fancy clothes and hairstyles out of thin air for this man and that because I didn't his affair was MY FAULT!!!

I am sorry I was triggered by this hair subject.

As a child, my mom took me to cheap places to get haircuts. I swear I looked positively retarded many times. Along with moving around 25 times or more and having to fit into the groups at school over and over, I had this UGLY hair and felt TERRIBLE about how I looked.

When I moved out, I at first did not know how to get my hiar styled. It took many years of trial and error to find out who to go to and what to do about my hair. I made many mistakes going to those cheap "chop shops" where they did not know how to cut hair very well and I ended up looking bad.

Why why why cant we pay a little more to get CUTE, ATTRACTIVE HAIR!!! HAIR we can easily style and look cute in!

I had to learn it,, I dont want you women to have to suffer like I did just because I was too ignorant or stubborn, for years, to pay more for good hair styling.

Those who saw my pic can tell you this is true.

That's not too bad.

I know what you mean about the $10 salon. I had a cut there once, and she apparently thought my shoulders (as in "cut it shoulder length") meant my chin...

Also took over a year to grow out, and I cried that night... also the last time I went to one of those salons...

BUT... I had in the past visited one regularly where I had a rapport with a stylist there. I would REQUEST her, and if she didn't have time for me, I'd leave and come back another day. It was a great bargain, she was great! I think that's the key. Finding a stylist (at any price) that can give you what you want.

I also know my co-worker pays an arm and a leg at a high class salon in town for her cut and dye/highlight jobs. In fact, she just came in with a new one on Monday, and I haven't seen one I like yet. I don't think her hair style compliments her face, and the dye jobs are just heinous. Her hair is black too, and they put like orangy/yellow highlights in... and the most recent one is this ugly shade of purply/black. Its terrible. I'm not sure if she REQUESTS it that way, or if the stylist is just that bad. But I would think a good stylist wouldn't want someone to be walking around with that hideous of hair... I certainly won't go to that salon after seeing her hair over the years! I hate it! (I really hope she doesn't read here... haha!). Anyways, my point is, I think she pays upwards of $100 for a cut/color, and I haven't liked on yet.... and she pays way more than me...

Right now I pay about $35 with tip and everything for a cut. Its a pretty basic cut. I've thought about doing something different-- keeping it long, but maybe something with a little more volume, etc... but just really don't know what would work with my hair type, etc. Or maybe some low-lights, something natural... my hair has red undertones, so maybe some natural looking red highlights...

Hmm... I am gonna have to find a "good" salon...

"And this is my fault how??? Basically you are saying that with respect to adultery, if the reason for it is because the husband changed his mind about what type of beauty he prefered, then it's ok?"

1. AFFAIRS ARE NEVER RIGHT

2. HIS AFFAIR WAS NOT YOUR FAULT

3. I AM NOT SAYING IF YOU WERE MORE POLISHED, HE WOULD HAVE STAYED WITH YOU!

4. YOUR HUSBAND SOUNDS TERRIBLE AND YOU WERE LUCKY TO HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF THAT MARRIAGE.


That said, why not change your views just a tiny bit and be open to looking more polished? Be open and things might happen good for you! Do a makeover and be surprised! There are levels of this you can do that are very EASY to do. Hi-lights done properly can make you look 20 years younger and prettier!

1. Polish up your hairstyle and haircoloring

2. Get three beautiful (not formal).. stylish outfits that fit YOU!

3. Look into new styles of clothing, hair, nails, makeup. Just to LEARN how to enhance your natural beauty with the minimum of hassles and costs.

4. Get three or four quality items of makeup easy to apply, a foundation stick in the right color, blush, and a nice shade of lipstick, and eyebrow pencil, learn from a makeup artist in a dept store just how to apply these. It will take you 2 minutes tops to apply these before going out anywhere.

I like you and i bet you are a cutie. Why not make the most of your natural beauty.

Yes, E, I look online for good cuts and color examples too. To get ideas.

I agree, it is not the money so much as finding the right person. Good coloring like hi- lights take time and naturally cost more...