ears, I think he would be thrilled beyond belief if you presented him with that book. Frankly, I can't think of any man who wouldn't be. If you get it, go ahead and take out one of the ones for the woman to do, and hand him the invitation at the same time as the book. It really is so much fun. And that's coming from someone who really doesn't like sex!

And I was going to say the exact same thing about the controlling. No offense to booka or other men, but I truly think it's inbred in men, because of their mothers, to dig their heels in when they feel they're being painted into a corner. We seek to solve, to negotiate, they seek to fight, to win.

I went to IC today, and we were discussing how my H simply does not see that I would have different thoughts from him. When he's ready to work on the car, we are too. In his mind. It simply never crosses his mind that we would have a valid reason for not instantly saying, 'oh, yeah, let's go work on the car.'

So I have to find a way to work around his inability to realize we have other opinions and plans and thoughts. But it involves understanding his thought process.

ETA: What about phone sex while he's out of town? Give him something to look forward to every night, and spice up your life a little?

Thanks, cat, for the recommendation. We have a date night planned Saturday night, so I'll give it to him in the morning. I am thinking it would be something exciting to look forward to. And if not then I will let go of the response. I asked what he thought about the phone SF, and he said he didn't know, but at least now he knows that I am open to that.

Cat, to be honest, I haven't always had a negotiation mindset, either. We started out well, but then it tunred ito that bad-giver thing, where I gave because I was too tired to think long-term, and was just trying to get some temporary peace. Then my taker came out, and I felt like I had already given up enough, and wasn't willing to give in the ways that I used to. I had been SD'd so much that for a while I chose to refuse to do almost everything that H wanted, because it all felt like more demands. I would ask, "is that a request or a demand," and he'd DJ me, and I'd say, "sounds like that was a demand then", and not do it. That's what I needed to do at that time to really understand that my decisions are my choice. To get rid of that programming I had, that there was a lot to fear if I said No. It could be that H is doing something similar, testing out the waters again and again to see what happens when he says No. I don't know.

And you may well be right about there being something biological to it, too, on top of that.

So I have to find a way to work around his inability to realize we have other opinions and plans and thoughts. But it involves understanding his thought process.

That is really interesting to me that you said that your H has an inability that you have to work around. A friend was reading to me from Alanon's The Alcoholic Marriage, the chapter on communication, because it's out of print but it was information that she felt was releveant to me. The passage was about balancing having compassion for the alcoholic, because it is an illness he did not choose, with enabling the alcoholic spouse, doing for them what they can do for themselves, keeping them from the natural consequences, from their Higher Power's plan to grow them.

Her concern is that my H wants to work away from here, and I have said I am willing to do that as a family move, but not as long-distance family, when H would be content to work in these places and come home on weekends indefinitely. She asked me to consider whether my efforts to minimize the travel and move the family to be with him are a desparate effort to win approval and create an outcome different than what he is working towards.

I remember that's not your case that your H is alcoholic, but you mentioned that his father was a severe alcoholic, and that totally makes sense with his level of perfectionism and heightened fear of being abandoned. I am always saying, "cat, it's his choice, not his inability". My thinking was that it was a DJ to say he has an inability. But there are cases where someone does have an inability. I don't know how to ascertain that. What do you think?

I brought up MB, too. Talked about the Love Busters, and it was an interesting discussion. I'm glad he was open to that. A lot at once, I know, but I feel like I've been too quiet about things that are on my mind.

Sounds like great progress. I'm really proud of you.

You know how my H is always saying that he has to do everything in our family, he never gets support, we're selfish, it's all on his shoulders, that I never help him? I think I told you that I asked him once recently if he really believed that, that I never help him. And his answer was yes!

I was shocked. He truly truly believes it's him against the world, and if I don't join him at the hip and do EVERYTHING that he does, then I flat out don't help him. All or nothing. IC didn't have an answer for that. She said it's unlikely he can ever come out of that self-protective way of thinking, given his FOO. So I'm stuck with someone who truly believes this, no matter how I try to reason with him, no matter how I protect myself by having boundaries, I will never get completely in his good graces if I don't give up my life and be 100% there for him.

That's the inability I'm talking about. What rational person would maintain that position, that I never help him, after I give concrete examples, from that very same day? To him, it's not about facts, it's about feeling. And I can't trump his own feeling.

I don't think your H is that bad, but I see a little of it in him.

There's absolutely no offense taken as I tend to agree. I'll try to explain this as best I can. Men are natural problem solvers and problem solving requires a framework that allows repeatable processes. Men tend to refine these processes through a feedback mechanism to obtain the best efficacy. These processes become a foundation. Men are steeped in the rational, logical, and reasonable. When we encounter systems/processes that don't fit our paradigm, we become confused and entrenched and generally non-adaptable. A lot of men have great tenacity and downright stubbornness in defending their position as derived from their processes. The harder you push, the harder we'll dig in our heels. There is a huge lesson in this and an available tool-set to deal with it. I'll leave that as an exercise for you as I feel I've left enough clues.

It is important to realize that each person has their own reality and how they see and think of things is processed through their own filters. Not everyone is cognizant of this. My suggestion to Cat in the car example is to come back with something pretty off the wall. It will halt his current process and he will then have to evaluate what you said as being completely out of the current context, forcing him to start a new process.

I'll generalize here that women are trained all of their lives to manipulate men. It never occurs to most that the same old manipulations are countered with the same old responses. Men will gradually pick up on the patterns. Shake things up and use some creativity. If you were direct, open, and honest all of the time we wouldn't know how to react. We expect the manipulation. Use it creatively to benefit you both.

Phone sex can be awesome but it too requires some creativity to avoid repeating the same script/patterns, just like real sex.

Let's see if I'm smarter than your IC. Let him do the things by himself, that's what he really wants. Offer to support him while he does those things, i.e. keep the household running, make sure to prepare a meal for him, bring him beverages, etc. He really just wants a support system. Then the clincher is that he wants to bask in glory when the job/task is done. Get out your copy of "The Five Love Languages" and check out the section on words of affirmation. I'll bet you one Guinness on draught that he is starved for words of affirmation and did not get them from his FOO and generally feels under appreciated by everyone. Words of affirmation will cost you almost nothing. Test my theory on this and report back the results.

Thanks booka. I agree that he needs affirmation. I've been trying to pay more attention to him lately, and it has really paid off. The thing about the car won't work, though. He really, truly wants me, and preferably D18 as well, to be outside on the driveway with him. If I don't do that, if I say I need to get some laundry done or get dinner started and then go inside, he'll come in in 15 minutes and say "Do you THINK I could get some HELP for once?" He's been doing that for the 30 years I've been with him.

If he decides it's time to do the yard, he just goes outside and starts getting the equipment out. If I don't come out and mow while he weedeats, he'll come in when he's done and say "It sure would have been nice if someone could have helped me." Just this year, I've braved myself enough to go outside and start pulling weeds instead of starting the mower. When I do that, he goes ahead and mows after weedeating. In other words, I have to be in the same work mode as him (car work, yard work, house work) and I have to be doing something. Not allowed to sit down on the couch and read a book while he's working. If I do, he either says the aforementioned first statement, or when he finishes he comes in the room and starts muttering about having to do all the work himself.

Thanks for the idea about a different process; I'll have to work on that. And I truly believe about the manipulation. I think that was woman's way to get chosen by the hunky caveman over the other girls; that and her looks. I think that's why it's ingrained in women to shop and to view other women as competition.

EA, sorry for the T/J.

I don't see it as a T/J at all. Pieta had a great answer on another thread for that. Because my H does that, too, he forgets everything that I do all week, if he spends 10 minutes hosing off the porch, and I'm not cleaning something in the house, OH BOY do I hear about it. Or if he makes breakfast, he wants me to make the toast. Or if he barbeques, he expects me to make salad WITH TOMATOES. "I made a nice dinner, and we can't even have tomatoes?" Um, sure you can, I bought you some beautiful ones, they're right in the fridge where they always are. How would you feel about asking me to chop them respectfully?

Pieta's answer was really similar to what you did, Cat, listed off the ten things you did, and then ask him if he would be a dear and do the car thing and let you rest. See, if you're doing the laundry, then it makes it like the laundry is more important than his goals. But if you rest, then he's pampering his loving wife, who gratefully rewards him with good food and drinks.

I have that martyr in me, too, that I have been retraining. Trying to earn one thing by doing something else that worked before. I've been working on identifying those assumptions (DJs) and expectations (SDs) and replace that with thoughtful requests, letting go of the response. Booka, is that what you meant by manipulation? And trying something radically different? I understand and accept that there are huge differences in the sexes, and how we see things, but personally I experience my H and I as more alike than different. Facing the same old beliefs.

Again, his demanding your presence while he works on the car (does he have you do anything else, i.e. were you a car mechanic in another life?) means that he wants validation for what he does. He wants you to witness his contributions because he's not getting the affirmation he craves. I feel this is all about affirmation and he feels so under appreciated that he's resorting to some rather childish behavior to reinforce his needs. A continuous program of affirmation would reduce his requirement to have you observe him. As someone who was starved for affirmation in my ex-marriage, I understand this dynamic completely. You'll need to do some work to build up his confidence in you that you appreciate what he does. He's defintely not self-validating.

Manipulation does not have to be used solely as a one-sided benefit. Because we have tendencies, manipulation can actually be used for a win-win situation. Since you've referred to pieta, I would suffice to say that she is the mistress of manipulation and terribly creative at it and both her and her husband usually win. Her problem-solving methodologies are generally superb. If we can put aside the negative for a moment and consciously use humor and creativity in a positive fashion, it will pay results. You've got to break out of the status quo dynamics. Upset the apple cart, but in a playful manner.

Please refer to Albert Einstein's definition of insanity an then watch the Seinfeld episode where George ignores his usual impulses and does the opposite.

You may still owe me that Guinness.

Ask Cat, she seems to understand my reference to manipulation perfectly.

I have to say it, ask yourself, what would pieta do in this situation? Be creative!

Booka, it's really funny, I haven't seen Seinfeld in years, and then just caught that specific one last week. Someone had left the TV on.

And Albert Einstein's quote is classic, that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and iver and expect a different result.

A relationship within a marriage is often a repetition of patterns. Patterns should be reexamined from time to time to determine their efficacy. Often doing the opposite achieves an immediate result.

We need to break out of our current thinking and try some creative approaches, even if they're counter intuitive to our very being. The same old is the same old. Try something different, change the music.

I'm hearing from IC, MC, my sponsor, to just let it go about H's work travel, and about California. To let him go alone, if that's what he wants to do. That I've already told him how I feel about it. Stop trying to negotiate with him about this. That the kids will be okay, that I will be okay, H will be okay. That his perception right now is that I wish to control him, and that is pushing him away. And that if the consequence is that I feel less close to him, to accept that as well.

This is what I think also. I don't think trying to talk to him about it is achieving anything you want. I know it isn't fun, but we can't control the other person. Yes you have a right to keep trying to talk to him, but at what cost do you enforce that right?

I'm reminded of the story about trying to hold onto a handful of wet sand. If you try to hold on hard by squeezing tight with your fist, the sand will run out through your fingers. But if you hold it lightly and gently, not trying to hang on tightly, you can actually hold it better.

I tend to agree.

And I know you tried this before, and reverted back to this position. I guess the only sense I can make out of it is that by wanting "so much" as he sees it, he doesn't like you.

So it seems to be back to taking the chance that if you back off, he'll be happier with you and more likely to negotiate.

Ears, do you have a clear idea of what your husband's goals are regarding his career? This might help you understand why he keeps taking jobs where travel is a component.

What I mean is, from his point of view what does he think he is accomplishing?

I don't think trying to talk to him about it is achieving anything you want.

Maybe achieving clarity of mind for me. It is good to know whther my partner will work with me to keep brainstorming win-win solutions or not. I'm working on letting go of the response. IMO MB is not about getting trapped in holding our spouse and their reactions up as our Higher Power, instead of as an equal partner. I hear Telly in my head saying that I'm getting into unclear language again . To clarify, we need to bring our taker to the negotiation table, because that's how we biuld a strong marriage.


I know it isn't fun, but we can't control the other person.
Jayne, do you see my recent actions as controlling? I don't understand my H, and he has not been able to really describe why he feels controlled, other than that I'm not accepting his plan of action as the final decision. Maybe you can help me get clarity on this part?

I see your actions, in this move of your H's. It seems like a lot more benefit than cost there. Both of you being able to forward your career instead of one. I see a joint benefit to the whole family, because the SAHD wasn't working out for wither of you, and it was very frustrating to both of you. I am not seeing that in my situation yet, the joint benefits of the options that we have on the table.

I have been reading Kukla's thread, and see that she feels this way as well, controlled. She described the options of this one job with the travel and the coworker that gives her H the heebie jeebies, or taking another job with a cut in pay and less flexibe schedule. But there may well be many more options if she wants to see them.

Yes you have a right to keep trying to talk to him, but at what cost do you enforce that right?

As I see it, we're both equal partners. I think RH says there is a cost of staying silent when your needs are not being met. If negotiation is done in a respectful manner, the goal is to make deposits with even the process instead of withdrawals.

Jayne, I don't wish to refute what you are saying. I think that you have some understanding that I am not yet getting. Not sure if that means I am blocked some way, not wanting to hear what you are saying, even when coming from someone I trust. I don't think so, I very much want to understand you.

Would it help to try to look at it like booka says, in that his experience is completely different from yours, because he's male. And like the way my H doesn't see me helping, if I'm not helping 100% of the time. It seems like you're being fair, but in his view, he's being fair too, maybe more than fair (in his view). Therefore, I don't think he's capable of being more compassionate than he already is, because his view is that he's already given more than you, and that is the stage you're in - tit for tat. IMO, it might take an outside influence to get him to understand that you don't see things from the same perspective as him.

I guess the only sense I can make out of it is that by wanting "so much" as he sees it, he doesn't like you.

That has always been one of his complaints about me, that I am "never happy with him." I am happy with *him*, but he thinks that I am not when I don't accept his decisions as final. That I consider them open to be still open to negotiation. I think this links in in a strong way to what jayne was saying about the promises and the July 4th sparklers. That H feels that I am breaking an unspoken agreement to accept his decisions as final.

So it seems to be back to taking the chance that if you back off, he'll be happier with you and more likely to negotiate.

I had typed up a response to this last night, but my computer didn't cooperate. I went into my resentments about the years of travelling and the moves with no negotiation. Doesn't feel so relevant to go into all that this morning. We can only resolve issues in the present.

My point was that most folks do respond to their needs being met. That has not been the case with us. Once I addressed one area, my H went on to focus on other areas where I "fell short", which goes on into the present, where he yelled at me last night for "not making the kids a priority" by not staying home from my weekly Alanon meeting. DD12 needed homework help, and I told her to call me on the cell, and I answered her questions before I got to the meeting. I felt good about how I reinforced my boundaries, telling H last night to stop judging me, and addressing the concern in a way I was enthusiastic about.

Now it is possible that I fell SO short that even the efforts I made at the time were not enough. Maybe there is still more refilling his love bank that I would need to go through before he will become willing to negotiate. But I don't believe that taking care of the kids while he is away would give me the same opportunity to refill that as getting along well all in the same house.

Ears, do you have a clear idea of what your husband's goals are regarding his career? ....What I mean is, from his point of view what does he think he is accomplishing?

He started working for this consulting company, taking a job for first in California and then other places, including working here remotely, in 2003 when it was hard to find jobs local to where we were. We had moved to Minnesota because that was where the offer I had was, but after I had accepted, he left the job he had up there. He said they were not compensating him appropriately to what he could earn in California at that time, because the local market in the town we were in was much smaller. His goal is to work consistently for fair compensation. He says where we live in Florida there is also little opportunity to work locally, that only in California is there non-travel work available. But he also says that he hasn't been looking locally for a long time now, because he doesn't want to be here.

Would it help to try to look at it like booka says, in that his experience is completely different from yours, because he's male. And like the way my H doesn't see me helping, if I'm not helping 100% of the time. It seems like you're being fair, but in his view, he's being fair too, maybe more than fair (in his view). Therefore, I don't think he's capable of being more compassionate than he already is, because his view is that he's already given more than you, and that is the stage you're in - tit for tat.

Cat, I think that's where I'm at, accepting that we are of two minds on this today, and that he doesn't see joint agreements as a goal to work towards. May be State of Conflict, or a personality trait, or like you said due to training or gender.


IMO, it might take an outside influence to get him to understand that you don't see things from the same perspective as him.

This was one of my primary goals in MC, and she has brought this up before. We are using a dialogue tool, and this os one of the goals for that. But it hasn't yet sunk in. H says that he is willing to consider opinions that are not irrational, but that mine ARE irrational. Again, this may be State of Conflict or something else.

Thanks again cat, for all your help!