I have purchased the book and will begin reading it soon.


I've been told that at times I mothered my husband. He never said it but during the separation people keep reminding me that he is a grown man.

I had not planned to call him today -- not sure when the best time would be.

On another note, my 9th wedding anniversary is coming up (9/18) and my husband's birthday (9/26). My birthday was in April and he did not send an email or acknowledge it in any way.

How do I handle these two potential landmines?

Hi !

I sent an email to H this morning:

Me: I was planning to give you a call sometime this weekend to see how things are going. When would be the best time to talk?
H: Tonight would be fine.
Me: Ok . . .great . . .I'm off to my first bellydancing class. . . it didn't get cancelled!!!! I'm nervous . . I don't know what possessed me to do this. :o)
H: Good luck bellydancing!

Okay -- so I am going to call him this evening and I don't want to screw it up. The last time I did a lot of the talking and am going to try to get him to share this time. Trying to think of topics to keep the conversation moving -- local sports news, politics, work, etc.

I was going to stay away from "feelings" type of talk. I am almost finished with the 5 Love languages book -- I think his first love language would be words of affirmation since his chief complaint is the mean things I've said and my criticisms. His secondary would probably be quality time or physical touch.

Mine -- not sure -- he was very attentive and showed me love in many ways --my first inclination is acts of service and then probably quality time. Although physical touch ranks up there too.

I am blessed that he is willing to talk to me. He could have shut me down altogether.

Any advice from anyone out there?

Hi All -- An update:

Had a phone conversation with my H on Saturday evening--I called him. We talked and laughed for an hour. He said he is reading 2-3 books a week. I told him that I had been reading too -- self-help books. He said he wasn't reading any of those kind. I used this opening to lead into a discussion about how he is feeling about us reconciling.

He said that he thinks of me and wonders what I am doing but the mean things I've said just keep coming back and prevent him from coming back. I said "I understand." I did not bring up divorce or pressure him for any further commitments.

I told him that I have been working on myself and that I know the things I did wrong. He said that it is always good to learn about oneself. I said I wouldn't rehash the past. I told him I had 3 books that I found helpful: Love Busters, His Needs; Her Needs and 5 Love Languages. I told him that they explain a lot about what happened with us and we are not alone in these problems as they plague many other couples. He said to email him the book titles.

We talked a little more and then I asked him if I could call him this week sometime and he said yes.

So I went to the PC and wrote this email using some of the language that I've posted here and incorporating some suggestions from LovingAnyway:

Me: As I mentioned on the phone, I am taking this separation as a time to work on me. . .no more angry outbursts, listening intently to what people say without interrupting, letting go of being right, taking people at their word and not projecting my filter onto them. My defenses are down and the "hurt or be hurt" mentality is gone too. I am committed to not reacting as a bully or to control you or anyone. I feel good taking a step back, choosing love and gratitude, allowing my heart to flow out again to my loved ones. I had many bad habits, very destructive to our marriage, and my awareness is changing those behaviors right now. These three books have given me the most insight--especially the first one:

Love Busters by Willard F. Harley, Jr. (addresses withdrawals to Love Bank)
His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley, Jr. (addresses deposits to Love Bank)
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman (kind of has the same concept but a little different)

I want to continue to give you the space you need and yet stay connected in a way that respects your boundaries and comfort level. As your companion and friend, I am hoping we can talk on a weekly basis to share what is going on in our lives. --Me

He replied:

It was nice to talk to you. I'll definitely give these books a look the next time I'm at Borders.

In the meantime, if you're looking for any escapist literature, or need something new to occupy you, and your book club you might try "book name" by author. I'm actually sitting here wondering if I'm going to be able to put it down to watch football tomorrow.

I replied:

It was great talking to you too. I will push hard for the book as our October selection. If it can compete with football, then it must be damn good !

Does anyone have any comments on this exchange? He says no to reconciliation but yet is willing to check out the books.

MMM,

What do you want to do for your H for your 9th Anniversary? For his bday? You can do them. Your choice.

Kudos on calling him...sharing with him and hearing what he is sharing.

What I don't hear in your email to him along with the ownership is the remorse. I believe you feel it deeply--and I wonder if part of the past pattern was to not state it?

Big kudos on seeing the difference between parenting and partnering...that's a big, complex package right there...and knowing your own tendencies goes a long way in asking yourself, "How do I really want to express my love right now?" rather than, "This is how I love."

Thank you for sharing your exchanges, your intent and what you're reading. You read "Dance of Anger", is that correct? Probably where I mixed up with 5LOL (I love that acronym)...because both are so essential to healthy growth in my mind.

LA

Hey at least you are talking. I think your husband has figured out that you are toxic to be around. He may not be stupid enough to try getting back with you again and possibly recieving the same toxic treatment from you. So I would plan on a divorce at this point.

But it does not hurt for you to work on yourself, if not for this marriage, for a future relationship.

I do not know if you can change a lifetime of bad habits (treating husband badly). Ask those who know you if they think you can truly change. If it has not happened yet, it may not.

If you do not completely change how you treat others close to you then it would be kinder for you to remain unmarried. That way you dont ruin another human beings life.

If you can change, to be non-toxic and caring to others, then so much the better!

I don't think that someone who chooses to reconcile with a spouse is stupid. Isn't that the whole concept of Dr. Harley's tenets -- to save marriages that are badly damaged?

I understand that he is "gun shy" of getting involved romantically with me again for fear that I will fall into old patterns. I understand that his fear is real.

I know divorce is a real possibility but he hasn't filed any papers yet and neither have I. Until the ink is dry on the divorce papers, there is hope.


I agree that I had many bad habits as described in the Love Busters book. I am choosing to change that behavior -- I am getting feedback from my family on my actions and then evaluating the "whys" behind the way I act. I pay attention to the thought or physical response that occurs so I can sidestep an angry outburst.

I am not a monster -- I have made mistakes that I regret -- I do love and care for my husband contrary to what people may think. We have had many, many good times as evidenced by the fact that even in the middle of this separation we can talk for an hour and laugh. Never having a shortage of things to talk about.

I give you credit for trying to change! That is a lot more than my toxic sister ever did...

I guess what I meant by stupid is that he may have been "burned so much" that now that he is away from you, he realizes how much he had been putting up with for years, that he may not be open about placing himself back in that same toxic situation.

If you change, and never abuse anyone again, he definitly would NOT be stupid for going back with you.

So, also, if he goes back with you without demonstrated proof that you have changed for good, then he is kind of foolish. I wish I knew of a way you could change and then show him you have changed. Maybe you can think of a way. Friends and family could see you change and tell him....perhaps.

I don't know -- maybe go out to dinner for his B-day-- some place public so he doesn't feel threatened. I bought a nice card -- not an anniversary card -- but one that expresses how much I value our relationship. But I am afraid it may be over the top.



Yes, I am very remorseful. I could have written more in the email but I didn't want to overload him. It makes him upset when I start to rehash the past so I was trying to honor his wishes by not bringing it up. Maybe I don't know how to express how sorry I am . . .there just don't seem to be any words.



I tried to read Dance of Anger last night actually but I just wasn't connecting to the concepts -- maybe it was the author's style of writing???

What is 5LOL? What do you think of our email exchanges? I was surprised when he said that it was nice to talk to me. I almost fell off the chair.

Thanks for the clarification StellaKat. That is my dilemma . . .how to demonstrate the change without him feeling like I am trying to trick or manipulate him back to marriage.

I thought maybe if we talked on the phone weekly and he was willing to read the Harley books then that might jump start some talking in the right direction. Then maybe ask him for coffee or lunch -- something public so he won't feel intimidated.

I don't think this will be a "quick fix." I will have to earn his trust over time -- I am willing to do the work that is necessary to build that trust. The big question is: is he willing to take a chance on me?

The baby steps you are doing seem good to me. He may be willing to start taking a few baby steps himself....toward your relationship instead of away from it. If he sees good things coming from you!

One thought I have having been around very toxic people (these were very very difficult people, worse than you ever were) and being damaged by them, is that it took me several steps over well.... years, to get back to ground zero.

First, I had to heal and to RECOVER from the psychic and emotional damages from my toxic family and friends

Then, I had to learn to deal with the toxic folks in new ways. Or drop them out of my life....

Since none of my toxic family or toxic friends would try to change or admit they had problems it made it harder.


*You are trying to change which makes him coming back to you a future possibility.

Yet, he may have to go thru a long period of healing and then the period of "getting his defenses ready" to come back to you again. Because he will never want to be totally vulnerable to being attacked ever again. So once he does these two things, there is more hope for your marriage.

I am glad you are changing..I am sure other people around you are supportive and happy to see the changes also.

Thank you for giving me that perspective -- what he is likely going through in his mind. I was shocked that he even agreed to look for the Harley books - whether he will buy and read is a different story. You can lead a horse to water. . . .you know the rest.

He is definitely not caving in to my overtures -- he has a protective shield surrounding his heart.

If we do reconcile, I don't want the marriage we had before (well, the good stuff maybe) but I think it would be wonderful to be able to sit down at the kitchen table and really talk through our problems -- not scream and cry through them.

Yes, my family has noticed the changes in me . . .especially my Grandma who has been spending the most time with me.

MMM, thank you for your posts. I understood a lot about myself just by reading your posts. i think we are very similar and we have caused a lot of pain to our Hs. My thread is in Emotional Needs and the Husband wants to separate in one year.
My H would be doing what your H is doing now, leavin on his own, if we did not have a son and limited financial possibilities (he can't afford a place of his own). I would also be better off with my recovery if i did not live in Italy.
I also think that you still have some hope. reading your H emails and the fact you spent one hour on the phone in good conversation is a very positive sign. I would tell you that keeping up those calls and emails is the best way to slide back into his life and show him you are a different person. you are changing but remember it takes a long time to become a totally different person and we abusers have very bad habits. we can revert back to the old behaviuor easily. I did change in the past and then reverted back and this is why i am losing my M, my H believe in me and i turned into a wolf again. so keep up all the work and show him consistently you are different and better now. I am telling you this 'cause i need to hear it myself!!! I am still full of anger and need to deal with it now.
Genoveffa

Thanks Genoveffa -- I hope you are right when you say that you see hope of reconciling in my situation. It can get discouraging.

You are also right when you say that it is easy to slip into old patterns. However, if I want to have a loving relationship, I gotta work harder and be more aware of my reactions.

Just pray that my H buys the Harley books and reads them -- maybe he will see that the situation isn't hopeless -- that other couples have overcome worse situations than ours.

What does this mean to you? Are you going to act from your love or react to your fear?

It is your 9th Wedding Anniversary...you are married to each other. You are now acknowledging a lot of reality you missed before--keep it going. It's real and it's really yours, 'k?

A card...a date...same for bday...is lovely. Ask and let the response go, 'k?


Would it help to say you are being very manipulative...you are attempting to manipulate his feelings, reactions, thoughts...because you are basing your actions on his possible reactions. Are you changing your beliefs or faking it, MMM? Are you must changing your behaviors...because if it's only the behaviors, not the beliefs (like suppressing your emotions when you feel them instead of knowing and statin). You're going to hang yourself up, making another human your master, because we also make him our victim.

You have loved your H for a long time...he has felt loved, too. As you say, there are many good times, many connective periods...we all have them...you do know you love...you're now working on loving well and true from your choice to love him.

If you make him your master, basing your choice on his response, then he's to blame, see? If you don't get the response you want, or do...if he falls for it, then he's not real...he did because you made him do...break that cycle...it's part of the whole.

What's your own code? Act from your code and let the outcome go. None of us control it. Just ourselves...and the more we think, feel and perceive for others, the MORE we betray ourselves, and the less we control ourselves, or live in reality, responsibility or equality, 'k?

Would you consider rehashing the past (I did, you did, we felt) is different from owning what you did specifically, why you did it (your past permissions) and why and how you won't do it again? Don't you think hearing your new boundaries, holding yoruself to your own code, setting predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements, and not seeing him as making you or you making him (among other stuff) be new, not rehash?

What if you voice sounded gentle and loving to yourself as you shared your realizations, goals, remorse in light of them? Would that shock him? What if you weren't self-deprecating or mocking to either him or yourself, to be funny, seen as witty, or intelligent? What if he discovered you...even as you discover yourself for the first time?

You have no control except to share your discoveries...to understand your anger dance, part of which you choose based on betrayal of self and manipulation of others...and knowing what you fear, sharing, and not acting from that fear.

Each call is an act of love (though you fear)...each email...hold it up to YOUR light, your code...and choose your results...let go the outcome. You've got a strangle hold on it...am I doing this wrong? Will this end it all? You're not that powerful, MMM...you're half the marriage...act from love, anyway.

If it was a choice between reading/studying Dance of Anger, and divorce, which would you choose? Tough read for those of us who do the dance, I promise...worth approaching like a text book, aids LB's book and shows the steps, why we take them and how we stop.

5LOL...Five Languages of Love. Gary Chapman.

Your fear will end your marriage and continue your dance, MMM...you are already safe...you've stopped doing the harm, the disrespect and the reactivity...hold your fear and know it will end nothing...unless we choose to react to it, 'k?

Your expectations have been giving you a ride in your life for a long time...your H got sick from them...and I think you're sick of them, also...if you swing them to very little, you're stunned...problem is, if you swing them one way, you will swing them the other...and he felt obliterated by them...be assured, you did so to yourself, as well.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. They give you license to abuse, don't seem to be manufactured in yourself, and they are a false boundary you put around yourself and others.

Learn real ones. Your H enjoys talking to you. Who wouldn't? You're respectful equals, complex and fascinating human beings no longer putting all their stuff onto the other...just like at the beginning...again.

LA

Sorry if i post in here from time to time, but i see i have similar issues as MMM.my thread is in EN Husband wants to leave in one year)
Yes MMM, there are situations worse than ours and we are still talking to our Hs. this is a big advantage.

"Would it help to say you are being very manipulative...you are attempting to manipulate his feelings, reactions, thoughts...because you are basing your actions on his possible reactions. " thank you LA for pointing this out.
I guess this is what I am doing everyday to win my H's love back.
practicing a new behaviour then will put my M at a high risk of failing, my H will leave, but it would be the honest thing to do. right now for me, change is going to happen gradually and i can't expect to both change and save my M at the same time. it is very hard. thank you

MMM, I was reading again your initial post and again it is like reading the story of my M!!!
i do not know if you are willing to go over this with me but i know it would help me as I would like to do all i can to save this M.
when you said "I was trying my darndest to change my ways and he even admitted that I changed but that he didn't believe it was real. Then, in April he left. He came home from work during the day, packed up his stuff (clothes, books, CDs, etc.), and told me later that he was out and I couldn't stop him."

how did you change during that period? what did you do different? you said he was withdrawn (and this is how my H is now). did you still sleep with him? touch and hug and spend time together? or you left him pretty much alone? what do you think prompted him to suddenly leave?


" I keep telling him not to give up but he is adamant that he can't be happy with me"

that's what my H tells me too!! :-( He is totally convinced this M has no hope and he is totally unhappy with me says he never will be. he also says i make him anxious.
thank you

I really like this card I bought back in May -- it is not an anniversary card but captures how I feel:

Front:
Our relationship has never
followed the rules.
We've never been the kind
of fairy-tale couple you see in the movies.

It seems like we're either head over heels in love
or crazy with frustration.
We're not perfect and neither is this relationship.

But you know what?
It's ours. All ours--
the little jokes that only we understand,
the way our hands naturally find each others,
and the memories that seem so wonderful
now that we look back.

Our relationship will never be perfect
but it will always be an important part of me.

Inside:
And I know that I'd rather be "real" with you
than "fairy tale" with anyone else.

I don't know what's in store for us.
But I know I want you in my life.
I know I love you.

by Amy S. Trowbridge.

I think I am going to send it. I am not going to expect any response from him nor am I going to expect a card or anything from him commemmorating the anniversary.


This makes sense -- his responses have to come from inside of my H -- from his own free will and his heart instead of me trying to "say the right thing that will make him come back." That is manipulation because if he did come back, I would likely fall back into old patterns because I hadn't changed the inside of me. If I am genuine -- speaking from the heart -- and he chooses to see it and believe it, then the marriage will be restored because we both choose it.


I'm still pondering these two paragraphs. I think I understand the difference between rehashing the past and sharing with him the growth I am experiencing. I've tried to tell him about the things I've realized and the things I am learning. The response I get is: "I think it is always good to learn things about yourself." That's where it ends. I guess I need to find a new way of communicating the changes that are occurring in me. Any other thoughts?


I would do anything to avoid the pain of divorce! I will try to tackle the Dance of Anger book again.


Wow -- this description of expectations makes so much sense. My expectations of marriage and my H were killing us. He could never live up to them and I would get angry. I expected him to meet ALL of my needs -- an impossible task for any human being. I would be disappointed all the time and he was stressed out to the point where he hated to be in a same room with me. Both of our anxiety levels were off the charts.

I can surely try to help as much as I can.


My H and I did sleep in the same bed but were not having sex. I wanted to but he said no. I tried to give him space and try to keep home life calm (he was working a lot of overtime during this period as required by his job.) I tried to thank him for the things he did around the house (I had always done that but during this time, I increased my awareness of how much he did to help me out.) I wanted to show him how much I appreciated him. When he came home from work, I really listened to what he had to say and tried to engage him in conversation. I was affectionate with him (kissing him on the forehead, hugs) and tried to relax more. We played games, watched movies, etc. He did not initiate a lot of affectionate behavior in the beginning so I would hold his hand or put his arm around me when we were sitting, hug him, kiss him, etc.. He slowly started to reciprocate but I realize now he was just going through the motions. One of his complaints was that I never slept in during the weekends. He apparently liked the early days when we would stay in bed for most mornings and just talk and cuddle. So I started to sleep in with him at least one day on the weekend. I also encouraged him to spend time with his family because I often criticized his family because they were so different from me. But over time I became to appreciate them for who they were. I was especially close to my mother in law. I planned a trip with all of us in February - a weekend getaway to a local resort. I even suggested that he spend Easter with his family -- to take some of his extra vacation days (he gets one more week than I do) and drive down to see his family ( I was unable to go because of a work committment). He lashed out at me and said I was trying to uninvite him from Easter dinner with my family. I was trying to do a good thing but it wasn't perceived that way.

All in all, I guess you could say. . .I put my Taker on the back burner and my Giver made an appearance. I was trying to meet his needs but I think he was so far into withdrawal that it made him more anxious. It just seemed like I couldn't do anything right -- he would lash out at me on other things too -- said I was a control freak, etc. I did not escalate the situations but rather stayed calm and "took my lumps."

I think it was that fear -- living his life in constant anxiety -- was what finally pushed him out the door. Nothing in particular had happened that day or the few days before. He said he just freaked out -- flashed forward to himself at age 60 and couldn't imagine himself living like "this." He may have wanted to believe those changes were real but past experience had told him that I would fall into old patterns.



Yes, my husband said that he felt anxiety every time I asked him a question. My hope is my husband will read the two Harley books and see that it is not hopeless and that I can show him that my growth is real. I'll never be perfect but I can break my bad habits and mindsets.

Hope that helps.

thank you for taking the time to do this. it was very helpful especially a few things you mentioned:
" I was affectionate with him (kissing him on the forehead, hugs) [..] He slowly started to reciprocate but I realize now he was just going through the motions. "
I was doing this till yesterday, but after i read what you posted above i stopped. he is going thru the motions and there is no point in me being physically affectionate if he is not interested. i also used hugs and masssages to entice him to have sex with me,but that is very manipulative and disrespectful. I am going to respect his right not to be touched if that is how he feels.

I also encouraged him to spend time with his family because I often criticized his family because they were so different from me. [...] I even suggested that he spend Easter with his family -- to take some of his extra vacation days [...]I was trying to meet his needs but I think he was so far into withdrawal that it made him more anxious. It just seemed like I couldn't do anything right"

Suggestions and planning for others is a way of manipulation. i stopped that a few weeks ago after he announced he wanted to separate. but i used to do that all the time thinking i was doing him a favor. i can see now how damaging that is for a mans self esteem to have his wife plan things for him.

" He said he just freaked out -- flashed forward to himself at age 60 and couldn't imagine himself living like "this." He may have wanted to believe those changes were real but past experience had told him that I would fall into old patterns."

My H too: he said he can't imagine spending the rest of his life with me. he is almost 50 and he said he feels he has not much left ahead of him and want to spend the rest of his life with a person that does not make him as miserable and unhappy as i make him.

I have schedule a session with Steve Harley and will let you know how it went and what he suggested.

I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what defines manipulation versus making a suggestion/helping. So I can't ever suggest a course of action to my husband? Some examples:

"They are selling hockey tickets at work. Did you want me to get a pair so you and your buddy Bill could go?"

"Hey, I talked to your Mom yesterday and she really misses you. Why don't you take a couple of vacation days and go and see her? I would love to see her too but I have fewer vacation days than you. She probably would like spending some time with you alone."

"Have you talked to your sister lately? <answer "no"> Maybe you should give her a call since she always calls us."

I swear I am losing my mind. . .I am so confused.


I will be anxious to hear the results of your session. . . .I pray that he gives you a good, positive course of action. Is your H going to attend with you?