Wow. How things can change. My last post a few months ago was about how well our recovery has been going. Sorry to be a downer, but since then things have really gone downhill.

Things got cool and quiet around the house in January. In February my W mentioned she was evaluating our M. I asked 'is OM back in the picture'? and my W said absolutely not. As it turns out that was lie #1.

In June things took another downturn, and again she said she wasn't sure she wanted to stay in the M. Same question, same answer. As it turns out that was lie #2.

I've been giving it my all, working to build the M and fulfill her needs. Not really working though. Seems like no matter what I did it just wasn't good enough, not fun enough, not lively enough etc.

Here's the wow. Late August I sneaked a peak at her laptop and saw several emails from her to the same guy she'd had an A with 3 years ago. Turns out she started seeing him again a few months back. No wonder I haven't been meeting the mark.

She says it's just lunch, but I've learned from sad experience not to believe her. Plus she's been a bit foggy. Plus, after all she's already lied twice. Of course I'm angry and depressed. I don't have the energy or the interest to do the legwork and get to the truth. I just assume that it's a sexual A - or at least deeply emotional - and that every word she says at this point is a lie.

( By the way, the OM is now in divorce court himself. I believe he has three kids in high school. I wonder if his relationship with my W contributed to his D? I wonder if my revealing to OMW contributed? )


To come to the point: Here are questions for some old and dear friends, and hopefully some new friends to be. It's clear she doesn't respect the M or me, and is much more interested in her former OM than in her M. To me this seems like a clear turning point in our M. Time to get out. I'm seriously considering filing.

I am praying, talking with friends, talking with 2 counselors and talking with an attorney. Trying to understand if this is the point at which I end the M.

If I do file, I need to carefully consider how it will affect our two boys. One just entered high school, and the other in middle school. It's not appealing to make them children of divorce, but not appealing to suffer in a rotten M either.

I also need to keep this in mind: We live in a no-fault state (Illinois) which had a fairly strong tendency to favor the W for custody. Good chance she would be awarded primary care of the boys, and I would have to pay 28% of gross income in child support for a few years. Plus a possibility of alimony.

That's not appealing, and obviously it's not appealing to have our boys be in a divided family. But neither is it appealing to stay in a M with a W who doesn't respect me or the M.

I have tremendous respect for this board and the generous and caring posters here. One of the best days of my life was the day I stumbled across this board. (Thank you Lord.) I would be grateful for any & all suggestions, opinions and advice. How do I know when it's time to D? What does God want me to do? What other alternatives are there?

God Bless and Many Thanks in advance,
-WNH

Weneedhelp,

I am sorry you are back again. I would think it might be time to pull the plug on this marriage. she has been lying to you. She has not been a particularly good partner during all of this, and this is the second time.

Your children may be old enough to choose with whom they want to live. I would suggest you seek legal counseling on this matter.

Can the marriage be saved? Yes, IF OM is out of her life for good. Should you trust her yet again? Hard to say, I don't think I would have what it takes to go another round of recovery.

I do have some questions. Have you exposed to her family, your family, people that might have some influence on her, yes even the children. I would suggest you get some hard data. A no fault state may still consider repeated affairs in assigning custody and alimony. I don't know.

Gather your data, legal and affair based, and then look inside to see what is really best.

My answer to the question in your subject line, is that God does not like divorce, but allows it under specific situations and you have just such a situation. God gave us the right to make our own mistakes and your W has exercised that right to its fullest. There are consequences for such repeated mistakes.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

WeNeedHelp,

Sorry you have been put in these circumstances for a second time. I can't imagine how you feel. I know for me a second A would mean an instant Plan D with no remorse and no regrets.


Something else that I think needs pointed out. You may live in a no-fault state, but you still hold a HUGE trump card if your WW is truly in a second A. Something that my help subsidize your income in the wake of child support and alimony.

Alienation Of Affection Lawsuit

I'm sure more people will be by to offer you more advice. Everyone here will be more than willing to support you no matter what decision you make. Hang in there.......

Want2Stay

p.s. Please consult with an attorney and weigh all your options.

One other thing to consider. I live in a no fault state as well, however - you CAN file for a fault divorce in a no fault state. The conduct of the spouses in the marriage IS taken into consideration when it comes to matters of child support, custody, etc...

Your attorney can advise you more on this.

Im sorry, my friend. I agree that for me, it would be time to pull the plug. You deserve better.

I think AofA has no relevance in a No Fault state. When I looked it up (not lawyers advice) more divorce board posters who had attempted it in a NF state said it got them nowhere. I read this stuff and I just shake my head. Lawyers being lawyers explained that the main problem with that is that you don't KNOW if the affections was ALREADY alienated BEFORE the affair. (Like that should matter?)

As far as God wanting you to divorce. It all depends what you believe. COntinued adultry in my church is a legit reason for divorce. But CONTINUED is BIG TIME CONTINUED. Meet with a preacher and ask questions.


Support will only continue until she gets married again, right? Or am I wrong?

I know I am in the HUUUUUGE minority here. But ME personally have this PSYCHOPATHIC attitude towards support of ANY kind after a divorce where I AM THE ONE BURNT. Jail, fines, execution, it doesn't matter to me...NO DIRECT SUPPORT from me. My kids can call me ANYTIME for ANYTHING and ask. If I think the thing they need money for is OK, I WILL BUY IT and send it. My exwife would touch NOTHING. Nada. Zippo. THis, for me, will be the biggest test of resolve I would have with a divorce situation. As much as you can guarantee the sun will come up in the morning, you can guarantee that at least SOME of that money is spent by your ex and romeo. Bank on it...and do ANYTHING you can to avoid that. But every man has to find what is comfortable for him.

If you have it in you, go through the MB steps again. Talk to your pastor, reverend or priest, search your soul and I'm real real sorry for this. Once is tough, twice.......thats gotta be hell on earth. Good luck bud....

Actually Illinois is one of the few states that does still have A of A on the books.

WNH, if you are in the Chicago area and need to talk, drop me an email and I'll send you my cell phone number.





Mark

Dear JL. Boy it's good to hear from you again. Thanks so very much for your wisdom and support 3 years ago, and again now. Thanks also to justkim, want2stay, gabagool and mark. Going to need lots of wisdom and support, and I'm glad to have you here.

We met with our counselor today. Initially she was my WW's counselor, then recently I started going too. So I'm not sure whether to say 'my WWs counselor' or 'our counselor'.

It turns out my WW had told the counselor some time ago about her renewed relationship with OM, but both my WW and the counselor had kept it a secret from me. I guess counselor considered it privileged since at that time I wasn't coming to the sessions. Anyway I'm upset about the counselor keeping my WW's secret. For those few weeks, the conversation had been about my shortcomings relative to my WW's ideal, when in fact both the counselor and my WW knew that comparison was really between OM and me. Arrgh. I spoke strongly to both of them about that.


WW is in the fog. Today she tried to blame her new A on my behaviors of long long ago (say 10 years). No I didn't have an A ever - but I was from time to time controlling. All that ended 3 years ago when the Lord took over my life. My WW agrees I've been good to her, particularly over the last 3 years. But still she tried to excuse her behavior by pointing to my old old actions. That won't work, and I told that to both her and counselor. My WW needs to just own it and quit making excuses.

Then my WW said the OM had been reaching out to her. But that's a lie - her emails made it clear that it was the reverse - my WW had been reaching out to OM. I confronted WW, and she admitted she hadn't been straight about that. So it seems clear my WW is fogged up.

It also seems clear the counselor won't be of any help. She lets my WW spin out whatever version of the 'truth' sounds most attractive to her on any given day. I think the counselor is just pandering for revenues. She should change her approach, or quit the profession. Not helping anybody.

Last night our Bible Study friends invited her over to talk. I don't know what was said, but no doubt my WW made up a bunch of lies or half-truths to protect herself.

I'll end with the same question I've been asking many people: how can I stay married to this woman who lies to me, keeps secrets, and has affairs? I just don't see any way forward but to split up.

Thanks to all for you concern and interest, and God Bless you all and protect you in your own struggles.

Does God want you to divorce? No!

Does God want your marriage to recover? Yes!

However, not even God always gets His way.

Have you considered changing counselors? Phone counseling with Steve or Jennifer is not cheap. But, I've heard they are very good.

Personally I would do a James Dodson, Love Must Be Tough move. Let her know that you are not her jailer and she is free to go to OM. Tell her she needs to work on her future by getting a job and moving out of the house.

Ditch the counselor - it's a waste of your time.

If you can scrape together $250. call the Harley's for a plan. I think they will tell you Plan B right away.

I'm with Believer. Call the Coaching Center for a plan right from the best.

Mark

I have zero tolerance for serial cheaters.

Kick her to the curb.

Let OM deal with her.

Am I reading your sig right?

13th May A#1 start/WW told me 12th June (Dday1) 1-way infatuation; 25th July OM initiated NC, failed. Early Aug found out OM ident. Mid-Aug WW revealed OM ident. 2nd Sept insincere NC letter. 3rd Sept exposure & NC. In-house seperation. Mid-Sept WW D threats+consulted attorney. 13th Oct A#2 with OM2. DDay2 3rd Dec, NC2 8th Dec. 28th Oct one-night stand with OM3. 6th Dec I consulted D attorney. 20th Dec back in the masterBR. Recovering.

She had 3 OM's in the past and this would be her 4th affair?

Thank you all for your thoughts. Believer it's great to hear from you again. Thanks for your help in the past. Shattered I hope you can spend a few minutes here, I greatly value both of you and your thoughts.

My sig line needed updating. Just changed it.

Yes it's her 4th A. Although I sort of think of the first three - all 3 years ago - as one longer A plus two quick and dirty ones, highly compressed into one 6-month episode of infidelity. So that's why I titled the thread 'Her 2nd A....'

The new guy is OM#1 again - apparently she never completely shut him out of her life mentally. When I exposed that time, things went really crazy for awhile and I was convinced it was completely thoroughly floating-on-the-top-of-the-tank over.

I'm more amazed than ever at the fallen state we're in, and the capacity of human beings to screw up.


Had a terrific call yesterday with a new friend who had some excellent advice and legal views, and also some verses to help. That kind of thing goes far to keep me going.

Today I had a great cigar-in-garage talk with a spiritual mentor. Possibly the strongest Christian I know. His take: expose widely, then leave the battle to God. Our friends and relatives will work on her spirit and mine. My job is to submit to His will.

I'm fully prepared to submit - see title of the thread - but am not sure what is His will. My friend thinks it means that I am to love my WW the way I promised to love her when we married. In MB language I suppose that's similar to Plan A. Other people will do the work to show my WW the wrongfulness of her actions.


Although I'm emotionally trashed, it's not like the first time, when I logged some hours in fetal position crying on the floor. I know why it's different: because - no matter what - I now know that I'm a beloved child of God. Last time I only slowly came to realize it. Take my word for it, knowing that vital fact makes all the difference. I know it will be okay; I just need to listen and pray, and do what I'm asked to do.


Today my WW said 'I know what I have to do and I'll do it'. Not sure what that means or if it's even honest. I don't really listen to her since it's just garbage. Very likely she's just spewing out fog, or gaming the situation to slow my continuing exposure. But I won't slow down on exposing. Full speed ahead on that.

2nd meeting with attorney set for Friday; to explore options, etc.

As always thank you all for your words of wisdom and support and God Bless you and your relationships.
-WNH

I live in a state that still has an Alienation of Affection law on the books. I know of two cases in the past few years where the BH has WON their lawsuits.

One OM was a millionaire.

The other case was against a doctor, who despite having filed bankruptcy, still had an extremely high income. I don't think that case ever went to trial, because the doctor is now in prison for trying to hire a hitman to kill the BH. However, since it was a workplace affair and the employer did nothing to stop or hinder the affair, the BH did win a settlement from the doctor's employer.

Anyway, the financial situation of the OM may factor into whether an attorney would be willing to pursue this or not. I'd go for it, anyway...because being faced with financial loss for having sex with your wife may make her very unattractive to him.

(moved this post from another thread, to keep it in the mix of advice, for input, comments from others)

weneedhelp...

Wow. I am so sorry to hear of the latest development in your marriage. Before I go on and forget, here's a link to a site with a ton of info regarding D in your state:

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/usstatedivorcelaws/a/illinois_laws_2.htm

Advice? Wow. I have been mostly retired from these boards and haven't been following much of what is going on these days. Your situation saddens me beyond words, and my heart goes out to you.

I do think that this recurrence of the A with the OM calls for a different tact than the Standard Plan A approach. There are a number of Former and/or Current Betrayed Husbands who are of a mindset that many BH are "too easy" on the WW, and make life too easy for them to waiver in their decision making process. That's what leads many of us BS to feel like doormats, which even you alluded to in one of your recovery updates.

I think the suggestion that you look hard at Dobson's "Love must be Tough" works was right on the mark. I also second the suggestion that you scrape up the money to have a phone session with the Harley's, as they may be able to cut through the new fog in which your WW lives.

If this had happened to me, my first thought would be to file for a D and get the he// out of the relationship, but my kids are grown and the impact on them would be far less than a D would be on yours. Your kids are at a very impressionable age, and truly need two parents.

For that reason alone, I would suggest that you try to save the marriage, not that you have the desire to muster once again the strength and will to do so. But I would think you should be much tougher in your ways and means, leaving her very clear with the fact you only have so much energy left for such an effort.

I believe I would do a "scorched earth" exposure again, to the ones very closest to you and your wife who you believe to be friends of your marriage. Ask them again for their assistance in getting your W to come to her senses. Even though the OM is supposedly in the process of getting a D, I would still make the OM's W very high on the list of exposure. It may help both of you in your respective causes.

Since your counselor basically conspired with her and the A, I would suggest trying to get her to counsel with you and the Harley's. They are renowned for their ability to cut through the fog.

Familiarize yourself with Dobson's approach, and even consider tossing her out and doing Plan B to let her know that you are not willing to support her infidelity in any way. Again, take your lead from the Harley's, as they are experts, and I have no experience with Plan B on which to base my advice.

Choose a time limit for her to "see things your way", and don't make it too long. Your ability to muster the energy to go through all this again will have limitations. Keep your time limit to yourself, and I would suggest it not go beyond 2 months. Then evaluate what will have transpired, and do some soul searching about what your next step(s) should be.

My heart goes out to you. I am so sorry this has transpired. You have reached a time in your life that YOU must decide how much more of this you can stand, and how much desire you have to try to save your marriage. You must decide if it is worth the effort. You may have a serial cheater as a W.

Take some time and think through all the advice you are getting on the other (this one) thread, and what I've offered here, and make your decision(s) based on what is best for you and your kids, NOT for your W. Right now she must be viewed as an enemy to your family unit.

This quote bothers me. You are minimizing things. Even my 6 year old knows 3+1=4.
She had 4 affairs not 2.


Sounds like your wife never "got it" the after the first 3 affairs. She has been in fog mode the whole time.


I agree with your friend, time for a BIG exposure with no warning. Just do it.

Weneedhelp, my suggestion is going to be a bit different than the others here.

Your WW has cheated on you four times in three years, and those are the times that you know about (it's quite possible that there may have been more). And she's chosen to restart and continue something with OM#1, knowing how hurt you were by her As.

If I was in your situation, I would be strongly considering a life WITHOUT WW in it, and start seriously planning to achieve that objective, with the best interests of yourself and your children in mind. Because no-one deserves what your WW is putting you and your children through..again! IMO, it's not Plan A or Plan B time, but Plan D time.

The affairs were with three different men. Even if they occurred simultaneously, it would still be three affairs.

Does God want you to divorce? Absolutely not.

He has given us the freedom of choice. It is what WE do with those choices that make the difference. WS do not think of their spouse and sadly not even their children, one of our greatest blessings. They become ME oriented. Selfishly, no one else matters.

Weneedhelp,


I am sorry that your efforts of 3 years ago did not take.

I am not a huge believer in saving the marriage for the kids, especially when there is a continued pattern of abuse, and what your W has done repeatedly is abuse of you and the family.

I am a big believer in trying to save a marriage for the kids IF this is the first time. We are beyond the first time by 3 more affairs.

I am also a big believer in looking at the data, and frankly the data is very clear. She chose a counselor that believes in affairs, believes that they are good, and believes it is alright to keep an affair from the spouse. She has chosen to have 4 affairs. She has chosen to leave this marriage. She just wants your financial support and the kids.


I also believe that God "helps those who help themselves." I do believe God hates divorce, but rewards those that look at the data and act according to the data. That is why divorce is sanctioned in certain cases. You are in that situation.

I am sure you have heard the joke about the guy trapped in a flood on top of his house, who continually refuses help saying "God will provide." and when he drowns asks good why he did not save him. God answers by pointing he sent a row boat, a motor boat, and a helicopter.

The joke is funny, but it does illustrate something, we often miss the message by not looking at the data at hand. You have the data, given your W's behavior and apparent failure to attend to this marriage, I think it is time to really gets your ducks in a row.

God Bless,

JL