I really dont have anyone I can talk to that is unbiased, so I am writing to anyone one who is willing to listen and give advice.
About a week ago, I told my husband of 10 years (and 2 kids) that I thought we should try a trail seperation. For me, this has been a long time coming. I have been unhappy for years, and I finally decided I was done. I really don't even know where to start with my story, but I guess most of our problems started years ago when I found out he had lied to me about several things. I am very much against drugs and he had been smoking pot behind my back. He later told me he didn't tell me about it since he knew if I had known he did that, I never would have married him. He also gambled behind my back, and at one point got us $3,000 in debt (we barley get by and live pay check to paycheck). I was in college and he decided to move back home to work for his dad, and we saw each other on the weekends. During this time, he took care of the bills. Apparently we got behind on them, and he took out a loan and ran up a credit card bill with out my knowing. All of this was about 5 yers ago, and I really did love him. We had one child at this point. I kicked him out of the house, but let him move back in after a week or so and him crying and begging me and saying he knew he needed to change and promised he would.
I do think he quit the pot and gambling, but then again, I never knew in the first place.
I feel he continued to put himself and his freinds ahead of me and the family. Some examples: about a week after the birth of our second child, he was supposed to be in a golf tourney with his freinds. I was so tired from being up all night with the baby (breast feeding) and then not getting to nap during the day while the baby did since I aslo had a 3 yr old to take care of. I begged him not to go, saying "Im so tired, I just don't know if I can keep going" he said, he had already signed up, but he'd come home right after the tourney, and not go out w freinds as normal. Well, he got drunk, stayed over night at a freinds and didn't come home unitl the next morning. Needless ot say, I was frantic with worry all night, beside being up with the kids.
While, that is the worst "drinking episode" I have had with him, there have been tons of times, he has stopped to have a drink after work, or went out with friends, and never bothered to call, or if he did call, he came home hours after he said he was going to. He maybe would only drink a 6 or 7 times a year, but when he did, it was him coming home whenever he felt like it.
In the last year or so, the going out drinking and not calling has gotten lots better, however one week after our 2nd, and last, counseling session (which was about 4 months ago), he went to the bar, got in a fight, and I had to take the kids to my parents at 2 am, so I could take him to the hospital. I am not a drinker, and don't understand all the fun. He says he does it to release stress. That was pretty much the end for me, but I have been trudging along this part few months until I recently told him that I was very depressed, and could see what lead people to commit suicide (I never would, but I could understand it) His response: "Oh, so that is why you haven't been paying any attention to me" and HE WALKED OUT THE DOOR!! He later said how sorry he was for not being there for me when I needed him. But he was just trying to prove a point that he was hurting too. It was too late, my heart was broken for the last time.
Most of the crappy stuff he did to me was over 5 years ago, but I can't get over it. I know that this is part of the reason our marriage has deterioreated this far. He is right, I have not been showing him love and affection, but I really just don't feel likne being loving towards him. Sometimes when he touches me I just wish he wouldn't. I have never been good at initating sex, even when our marriage was good. He says I haven't worked at giving him what he needs (affection/sex/wanting him). I try to tell him, I don't want to be affectionate to him becasue he has hurt me so much, but he just doesn't get it.
This week of us beig "seperated" has been hell. I mostly feel bad for him and the kids. I want my kids to have a family, but I don't think either one of us are showing them good examples of being a good wife and husband.
I am strugglin with doing what is best for me (if I even know what that is) and doing what is best for my kids and husband (if I even know what THAT is!)
Can anyone offer me advice on the whole situation?


I'm sorry for adding more, but upon relfection, I feel that it looks like it all about his drinking. And there is much more to it that that. I do think that the worst of that part of the drinking is over, but there are smaller every day things that I am struggling with also. We both work anywhere from 50-80 hours a week struggling to make our business work. Although I work just as much as he does, I do 85% of the housework and child raising. I have asked him repeatedly for help, and then he will do a load of dishes or clothes and think that is enough. I always have to be the one being "responsible" making sure everything is done, bills are paid, we have enough money in the bank, etc. Again, I have told him he needs to be more responsible, but he doens't really do anyhting else. He thinks by working long hours, he is taking care of his family. We talked a little this morning and he told me he thinks he has been a good husband. I said then that is exactly why I dont want to be married to you. If he thinks he is being a good husband, why would he change?
He said he thought my depression had ended.He thought it just went away. I said "how would it have ended, nothing in our relationship has changed."
We just dont see eye to eye on things or understand each other. We dont talk; I have to pry a one or two response (rather than one word) out of him when I ask him a question.
I dont think I have any feelings left for him, and at this point I don't think I could be commited to trying to make things work. As I know that I am to blame for some of our trouble and it would take me trying really hard too, which I don't think I have the desire to do.
Our kids are 6 & 8. I have considered staying with him for the sake of the kids.

Can anyone give me some advise????? Please!!

I'm so sorry,honey,for what you are going through. It sounds to me like your H is an alcoholic. And that may just be the tip of the iceberg.:(
Is he on the computer a lot? If so,learn to snoop. Get keylogger and put it on your computer he uses. He won't know it's there and it tells you what he's up to on the computer.
I helped my son with his ex-wife's abuse and stayed one step ahead of her.
It's obvious you love him very much. But maybe that love enables him to be who he is,does what he does. When you have a baby,you need your rest and time with the baby and your other children. What he did to you was heartless. When I had our son,I was lucky. All I had to do was lay in bed or sit in a chair,taking care of the baby. I even had my meals served to me in bed. My H was,and still is,so thrilled to be a Dad and our son is now in his 30's.
For yourself,could you go to counseling? It sounds like your H is maybe trying but the addictions he has are severe. I think he is hiding that and more from you.
My son was shocked at the info his now ex-wife was keeping from him. There was another man and a lot of financial misdeeds. There was cybersex and online relationships. And if you knew this girl, you would never have thought she was capable of the things she was saying and doing. But I had warned her before they married.....As long as she was good to our son,I would love her like a daughter. But hurt him and I would be her worst nightmare....and I was. The most satisfaction I got was when she was served with divorce papers at home by a police officer when she was with the other man while my son was at work. She had a breakdown and I felt she finally paid for what she did to him. She was shocked that our son knew anything much less the volume of what he knew.
I played my cards close to my chest. While I was finding out all these things about her,I told only my H and son and we agreed to keep our mouths shut about what we learned so as not to tip her off. She went happily along,living a double life thinking she was just too smart to get caught. She would make fun of our son,give him sly smiles. She just thought she was SO smart. And the other man? He went on to greener pastures when it wasn't "fun" anymore.
This is what you must do,honey,snoop. I think your feelings are because you know,deep down inside,he has not changed.
God Bless You.

Would you two consider going to counseling?

I can see how you two could have gotten into this situation. He broke your trust by smoking pot and gambling, and nothing happened to rebuild that trust.

Because you didn't trust him, you probably gave him a vote of "no confidence" which led him to feel rejected. So, he became less invested in the family, spending time with friends, which lead you to distrust him more.

You need a good marriage counselor. Unless you just want to divorce immediately, do not do a separation of any kind without a top-notch counselor and a commitment from your H to participate in the counseling.

You can come back from this and have a great marraige, but you'll need some help.

If you think your husband has an addiction problem or is abusive, then I can understand separating for a time until he gets that part of his life straightened out.

If he does have an addiction or is abusive, it's likely that the addiction will take precedence over his willingness to work on the marriage. If, however, he doesn't have an addiction and hasn't been abusive, you will not find much support here for leaving the marriage.

This is a marriage builders site, and since you're here, we can validate your feelings to an extent, but we won't pat you on the head and tell you that it's okay to leave your marriage just because you aren't happy. You have to remember this is an open forum, and sometimes you may get a response that is somewhat laced with remnants of that person's personal pain from a similar situation.

I often hear of marriages here where the spouse who has come across MB is befuddled as to why or how their marriage got in the state it's in. I think there are a lot of things that can contribute to the breakdown of a marriage. Today's society makes it very difficult to invest the amount of time into our marriages to keep them strong. Do you know that Dr. H says that a good solid marriage needs up to 15 hours a week of one-on-one time with our spouses? Interesting, huh? He also advocates even more time for those marriages that are in trouble!

You have two young children, and assuming there is no addiction or abuse, your place is back home with your husband, seeing a marriage counselor and/or using MB concepts for a significant amount of time, before you write the marriage off.

You owe it to your children and to your own conscience to work earnestly to make a stronger marriage for at least a year. Yeah. That's right. A month for each year of marriage - plus more since you have kids. This is regardless of whether your husband steps up to the plate or not. Hopefully, when he sees positive changes in you, and with open communication about MB and your new boundaries, he'll get on board.

You've been working hard, literally, to build a business together. There have been other stories like yours, with couples suffering the stress of owning a business together.

You might want to think about hiring another person to supplement your position in the company - someone to shave off 20 or so of your hours.

Sometimes people think a successful business depends solely on hard work; I'm one of those people who doesn't agree. I think there are a lot of other things that need to be factored in before you decide if a business is going to succeed or not. Location, the state of the economy, demand for the product or service,etc. Have you and your husband taken an honest look at the business and talked about the worth of keeping it or not? Do either of you know business owners who might be able to mentor you both and help you decide if this is a path you want to continue on? Have you spoken to a financial planner? The reason I bring these things up is that I sense that the long hours are possibly contributing to your marital discord.

Soolee is so right.:) Marriage isn't easy. Takes a lot of hard work. We STILL go to MC after all these years and probably always will.

Thank you all for replying, I really appreciate you taking the time out to try and help me.

I am not sure if he has a drinking problem or not. I don't think he drinks very often. All I do know is that every few months or so, when he goes out with his friends, he gets drunk. He can't seem to or doesn't want to stop at a couple and come home. I see this as an unwillingness to compromise. I have told him I wouldn't care if he went out, as long as he had a couple and then came home, but he doesn't do that.

I do see the point that my lack or trust in him may have caused a cycle of him having low self esteeme and going out with freinds more. (which is actually something he said to me today...he goes out to get attention) However, is this something I need to take responsibility for? Shouldn't he have taken responsibility for his many times of causing me mistrust, and changed his behavior? I do want a honest answer.

In responce to Soolee - Why do you think I must work on the marriage? I have been trying for years, and feel like he hasn't. Do you sacrifice your own happiness for that of his? Are children ALWAYS better off with the family staying together? I am interested to hear everyone opinions. Maybe you should try to make things work at all costs. I dont know. My parents have lived unhappily together for years, and I always thought my mom should have left him.

I tried talking to him about selling the business, but he doens't want to. I told him its not worth all the stress.


ANYONE - how do you decide when you are done trying?

Do I have valid reasons for seperating, or is it my depression that is clouding my view. I think it is him, since I am happy with the other parts of my life.

Have you been totally honest with him? Does he know you want to leave? If not,what do you think he will do if he knows? Will he want to work on the marriage or just go get drunk? He has to WANT to work on the marriage.

Running wild, I've been in your shoes. I do understand.

But, here's one thing I do know: Trying the wrong stuff is like trying to fix a squeeky door by washing it with soap and water. You spend a lot of time cleaning it over and over again, but it never gets better... because you need to oil the hinges, not wash it!

Your husband needs to take responsibility for his actions, but you need to take responsibility for yours. For example, you need to take responsibility for not meeting your husband's need for attention and admiration. It's important you do this because you cannot force him to take responsibility or change. Yet, by your own behavior, you can create conditions that will make accepting his own part in the breakdown of the marriage feel safe, and where he may be motivated to change in order to save the marraige. Pointing fingers and saying "You change first" is not going to help.

If you make changes in yourself to be a better wife, and after time, he isn't willing to do anything toward saving the marriage, then you will know divorce was the best option available to you, and you won't have any regrets post-divorce.

I went to marraige counselign on my own for almost 2 years. My ex finally agreed to go, but he wouldn't do any homework. We changed MC's but that didn't work well. I finally moved out, and we got yet another MC. B still didn't do any of the homework, and the final straw for me was when he totally denied we had an agreement that he clean out half the basement within 3 months. After three months, the basement was still a mess, and he denied he made the agreement. The MC didn't confront him on it, and I left. I went back one last time, after we'd be separated for almsot 2 years. It was the fourth MC. She was good, but each time I went I felt more anxious, more fearful, more crazy. Strangely, that's when B finally decided to make some effort at fixing various things.

I'm not suggesting you be as stubborn as I was. I wish I had divorced sooner. However, the issues don't go away with divorce. They will resurface again and again until the children are grown. You will need to do the hard work either now or later. There is no escaping it. Why not try now when you have a chance of providing an intact family for your children?

If MB principles and marriage counseling don't work, you'll have lost nothing but a year or so. That's not much time at all.

He knows, He was been out of the house for a few days now. He is heart broken as I expected. When we talk about issues, he either trys to expalin or says he doesn't know why he would do_. He doenst' admit it was wrong and acknowledge a need for change.

Greengables, you are right I should not have waited to make changes before I would be willing to do so, but I'm not sure I can build him back up now. I have so much resentment for the hurt he's caused me, I litterally cringe when he touches me. I have no sexual desire for him, no desire to kiss him even. I feel our views on drinking and drugs are too different to ever get along. (Although he quit the pot, he still honestly thinks it is ok to do, and said he would rather our kids do that and drink!)
What do you mean, "the issues wont go away with a divorce"? I mean I realize they wont go away, but we wont be married, so he wont be given the chance to do crappy things and hurt me.

I can not remember the last time we had fun together. When he is not around, I am happier. There is no resentment inside for all the things he is not helping me with, no one to argue with, and no hurt. I love him, but I am not in love with him anymore.

I think that if he will not change, then the longer I wait, the more the kids will be affected. They are young now, and I think it would be easier. Although, I do see the point about having no regret if I gave it another try.

"In responce to Soolee - Why do you think I must work on the marriage? I have been trying for years, and feel like he hasn't. Do you sacrifice your own happiness for that of his? Are children ALWAYS better off with the family staying together? I am interested to hear everyone opinions. Maybe you should try to make things work at all costs. I dont know. My parents have lived unhappily together for years, and I always thought my mom should have left him."

Hi. I recognize that you think you've been trying for years,but as Greengables so nicely put it, we can often work on eliminating the wrong behaviors and fulfilling the wrong needs - clueless - frustrated - because we never truly identified the real habits that need to be eliminated or the particular emotional needs that need to be fulfilled- the ones that make the most impact. We like to think we know our spouses like the backs of our hands, but frankly - people have come on here after having their spouses fill out the love buster questionnaire and the emotional needs questionnaire and are surprised that their perception of their spouse was off.

When you have children, especially, yes...you need to try and make it work at all costs. That's my personal opinion. That is providing he is not abusing you and your children and has no addictions, in which case your safety takes precedence and a temporary separation might be appropriate.

This is about your conscience, as much as it is about the future of your marriage. Just as getting married is a huge decision - so is divorce - especially when little hearts are involved. Your tenacity, as long as you implement boundaries as well, is something that your children will admire, not disrespect. You wouldn't want to send the message that marriage is disposable.

So, I suggest you tell your husband that you want to live together again, but only if you two are getting counseling and actively working on the marriage. Make more time for each other daily. Talk, talk, talk. Tell him you will decide down the road if it's working for you or not, but that you want to work on your marriage in a more focused way.

Some people think the terminology is hokey. They think following a plan, like MB, is strange. I say - "You got a better idea?" Most people don't. This is free, and if it's followed, it can help keep your family together...I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Print off the MB concepts and both of you read them.
Print off the love buster questionnaires for the husband and wife and fill those out. Then, exchange them. Tell him that you two need to actively work on eliminating these things from the relationship first. By doing so, you're patching the holes in your relationship, like a leaky bucket. Every time you two love bust, you're making a new hole. This will help you stop.

During all of these efforts, you are making more time for each other. Print off the recreational inventory list to see if there are things on there that you think both of you would enjoy. Show it to him. Make him a part of this, and remember to have some fun together. Some couples meet on a Sunday afternoon, as suggested by Dr. H, and map out their week and make plans to do fun things together as a couple. Just the two of you now.

After the LBs are eliminated and no longer a part of the marriage, that's when you turn to the emotional needs questionnaires and do the same routine.

Another year of earnest effort, following a good program like this and/or seeing a good counselor, is nothing in the course of the rest of your life. It's a good investment of your time and effort, and it's something your conscience will thank you for.

I agree with Soolee.

And don't think that getting divorced early makes it any better for the kids. Divorce is a no-win situation for children no matter what the age unless there is abuse going on.

You don't need to change your feelings for your husband overnight. In fact, YOU cannot change your feelings for your H. Your H has to make the changes in his behavior, then you'll feel the changes in your emotions toward him. This really does work! My ex wasn't at all in love with me when I started Plan A. B wouldn't go to MC, he wouldn't read books, he was looking for "escort services" in areas he'd be traveling to. I started Plan A, and guess what? My ex fell back in love with me. Unfortunately for us, he was unwilling or unable to make the changes I needed him to make. Therefore, I fell out of love with him, and left him when he was in love with me.

If your husband stops behaviors that lose him love points, like smoking pot, drinking at bars after work, etc, then eventually, you'll be able to accept when he does things that meet your emotional needs.

The key is first you BOTH have to stop LoveBusters. All four principles are important, but there is an order. If you two don't stop killing each other's love, trying to create the love is a losing battle.

As you avoid LBs, you can start to spend 15 hours together providing undivided attention. There are a couple of ways to go at that. First, spend MORE than 15 hours a week alone together. You will get fastest results by spending more time alone together, provided neither commits LBs. The second is to do exactly 15 hours. The third is for when neither of you has the steel to spend 15 hours alone together. Then, I think you can start with 10 and work up, one hour per week, until you're at 15 hours each week. It's near impossible to fall in love or stay in love with someone you don't see or talk to one-on-one.

You can start to meet each other's emotional needs. Start with the top needs, and negotiate how to meet them enthusiastically. For many men, their top need is sex. You aren't willing to have sex with him right now. But, you should address what it may take for you to be willing to have sex with him again. You need to provide hope that eventually, you two will be having great sex.

Also, you know, you two don't have to agree on everything. You two may disagree about marijuana in theory, but agree on how to handle it. He doesn't smoke it because it makes you unhappy.

Thank you to everyone who replied. You have given me a lot to think about.

Has anyone out there been in my situation? Where they were at the point that they didn't know if they wanted to be in the marriage, maybe even didn't want it to work out, but tried to make it work anyway and everything did end up working out?

I was in your situation, and it worked out... I divorced knowing I had done EVERYTHING in my power to be happily married to B. I never wonder if I made a mistake. Divorce isn't easy. It isn't wasy to deal with little children who cry because they miss Daddy, and then cry when they have to say good-bye to Mommy because it's Dad's day. It rips your heart apart.

There are others, espeically on ENQ whose spouses were willing to make changes to their behavior, and they are happily married.

Emotionally, it feels like it can never get better. But, know intellectually that things can get better and that emotions aren't accurate predictors of possibilities and the future. Emotions are very rooted in the present and even more in the past.

If you do try to keep it going, recognize that whatever you were doing before wasn't working, and accept that you need to try a different strategy - hence marriage counseling and/or MB.

Don't sabotage your efforts by slipping back into doing what you did before when you darn well know it wasn't working. Don't 'sand bag' your efforts because at the present time you 'just aren't sure you want this to work out anyway.'

With that attitude, you're going to fail before you begin. It will only be a matter of time. You're painting your path from the get go.

So...you do this for your kids. Not for you. At least in the beginning. You go through the motions and be patient with your own feelings of trepidation and doubt.

But...do your best to get him on board with you. Tell him that you will stay for a while longer, but while you stay, you need him to participate in a free program for people who are trying to build stronger marriages. Tell him this program gives you hope, and without his participation, you may become depressed and discouraged. Print off the concepts and either have him read them or read them yourself and write them out in easier-to-understand format so that it's more welcoming to him.

Then the next night, have those LB questionnaires ready. Read about them together, fill them out, and exchange them.

Beginning the next day, start to eliminate those behaviors. Work on that for as long as it takes.

Sunday afternoon or whenever you two have an hour, figure out whose going to watch your children while you two start getting some free time to yourselves. Figure out where you'll go, what you'll do. Doesn't matter, just so there's no TV, no kids, no distractions. It can be a long walk with a couple of apples as snacks or whatever. Make a plan.

Hey Running, I'm new to site too. I'm actually a bloke in the same shoes as your husband except that after my desperate failed attempts to convince my wife to give me another chance I resorted to research and found this site.

I am desperate not to lose my family as I am sure he would be. Only he doesn't have skills or knowledge to see what he has done yet nor what he can do to make you and he happy.

I wish I could get my wife to get on board with the idea that both of us studying how to be better at relatiobships will make us both happier. But alas she, like you, has come to the end of the road.

I am going to improve myself and keep trying, I really hope your husband can come to the self realisation that he needs to accept his behaviour is destructive and do some thing to save his family.

GregO - Thanks for the post. The problem with my husband is that he doen't think he needs to change. He actually thinks he is a good husband. He thinks because he said "sorry" for all the crappy things he did, now it's done, over, and should not be brought up again! He resents ME for not being affectionate towards him, he just can't see that it is because of all the times he's hurt me that I don't want to be, and he needs to build my trust BEFORE I would want to be affectionate. HE thinks I should just make myself be affectionate since it is what HE needs! Where have my needs been in all this!
If he actually said that he realized that he needs to chage his behavior and it was wrong, things would be different. HE needs to want to be a better person for not only me, but also himslef and his children. You sound like you realize you've made mistakes, and WANT to coorrect them. That is big.

Greengables & Soolee - I have told him I would go to counceling with him. We'll see what happens.

I feel for everyone like us - u just cannot help some people. His own happiness is in his hands - if he joined you on a new path you would both become better and happier people.

In my brief flashes of lucidity I can think that at least I will not perpetrate this on another partner.