I'd like to write tonight, and you all deserve some interaction from my end. But I'm hurting too much right now. I'll try tomorrow.

Man I hate to think about D. JL your note about her caring for the kids and income really hit home. Ouch ouch ouch. if it hits that hard, then there must be lots of truth in it.

I'm really conscious that the outcome isn't up to me. It's not about Mr. WNH and my petty emotional needs and pride. It's much bigger than me.....

Ok better tonight.

Picked up 'Love Must be Tough' and read through it quickly. I think I've been doing an unintentional 'Tough Love' approach for the last week or so. 'Precipitate a Crisis' says the author. Well I've definitely done that.

WW was very angry tonight - her usual defense mode - but still we managed to exchange a few sentences. We agree to see a different counselor. Christian counselor for sure, but we don't know who yet. Our friend has offered to refer us to a really great one, so that will be good.

WW said she doesn't even like me anymore. And vice versa. But I don't think that's fatal to the M, we've been here before and came back nicely - for a couple of years.

She's contacted an attorney as have I. So here we are again looking down into the chasm.

I had told her about my appointment with the lawyer. Now I plan to cancel or postpone it until after a round or two of counselling. I'll let her know that, in hopes she also takes a step back from the brink.

Good grief....I look at these paragraphs and can hardly believe we're here again.

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
-WNH

Boy, oh boy, is your new faith being tested! Again, my heart goes out to you.

I still think you need to do the whole exposure thing again, in the smallest concentric circle of people closest to you and you marriage. Again, the OM's W needs to be at or very near the top of the list. You have no idea what OM is telling his BW, and she may need some clarity to get through what she is enduring.

The choice to proceed to D is no doubt difficult, and there lies your extraction for this whole mess, but you will forever be tied to your WW through the children you have. That is why I have suggested making this last attempt into getting your WW's head on straight. But again, you will have limitations on what you can endure. When you have thought this through, and know what you believe is best, make a list of milestones, along with dates, and proceed with determination in that direction. Do not let this turn into a long, drawn out mess that steals a couple of years (again) from your life.

You should know if the new counselor is worth his/her salt in one or two visits. I would still recommend you have at least one session with the Harley's, in that you are familiar with the program, and get their take on what has transpired. Proven professionals may help you see your best path with more clarity than we with "on the job training"... LOL!

Keep us posted, and may God be with you for every step!
sd

Thanks for that Shattered. We'll I'm fairly well along with the exposure. Will continue judiciously.

I may take your suggestion and call the Harley's - first I'd like to try our local person. I'm expecting a really good recommendation tomorrow, and WW has already agreed in advance to see whoever it is. Things are bad enough that I'm very eager to sit down and talk.

We really don't like each other anymore. Yday WW asked me to move out. I declined and asked her to move out. She also refused and said "ok we'll let a judge decide then". I have a feeling she saw an attorney today (unusual block of missing time after work) so anything could happen. But then she DID agree to see a counselor so I'm not sure what to think.

One thing for sure; if we make it through this time, it is now completely clear that there's zero chance of surviving any future episodes. I'm sure both WW and I couldn't possibly think otherwise. She must surely know it's a choice between fidelity and D.

I think she will hit me hard for my sullenness, coldness and silence over the last week, and my comments that I'm seeing an attorney. None of that was planned - just an honest reaction to finding out about her recent A or EA or 'just lunches' or whatever. I guess it's a little like Tough Love.

Anyway that kind of behavior is a total Love Buster for her. I think she would be happy if I were to just smile sweetly rather than having honest emotional reactions. Well last time I plan A'd fairly well. It hasn't been that way this time, and it won't be. At the end of this there won't be any mistakes, questions or room for doubt about my WW's responsibility for this, or about where we stand on infidelity.

Last time - 3 years ago - our neighbors kind of cut me loose; didn't really want to get involved. This time we have church friends that are real troopers. I know for sure they will hang in there with both of us. What a great feeling to know that those closest to us really truly care and will definitely go the distance for our family.

God Bless all of you on the boards in your struggles.
-WNH

Pretty quiet day today. We've agreed to avoid each other, and are trading evenings with the boys. I'm sure they think it's weird. I'm sleeping on the basement couch - which isn't bad but I miss my wife and bed. Little twinge of loneliness...

Expecting that counselor recommendatation shortly. Hoping to arrange a quick meeting and get started discussing things with WW. I'll need to hold my tongue - I don't hate her and I don't want her to think I do by lovebusting all over the place. Those Angry Outbursts come to me all to easily. I can stifle them, but the result is my being silent, sullen and cold. Hardly any better than an AO - she hates it when I'm that way.

I suppose it's possible WW is telling the truth when she says 'just lunch'. But I just don't see any way to give that any credibility. Certainly there's no trust between us now. Anyway if she IS telling the truth she must really despise the coldness and sullenness on my end, and especially the intimations of D. What can I do? Can't believe her.....

Would it be okay to just not even ask for details? Since I wouldn't believe them anyway....OTOH at the right time details might help to clear the air.

Or I may get a D summons tomorrow. Pretty volatile and unpredictable times.

My buddy says just love her. Leave the hard work to others. Is that the answer?

Best to all,
-WNH

She met with him behind your back knowing what she was doing was cheating in whatever form it was. That says alot about her ability to be trustworthy or faithful. Short of a lie detector there is not much more you can do.

.

In a nutshell, she broke your bonds of marriage when she committed adultery.

You are free to go according to the rules.

WNH -

I just read your thread. So sorry you are back in this mess again. I can relate to what you are going through as I just recently discovered a second A after my "H" had been back home for a year.

I too am struggling with Divorce or not. Unlike you though, I immediately kicked my WH out. I am in a Plan B mode, not really trying to recover it right now. Just trying to get my mind stronger, trying to decide what the next step is.

I'm defintely not and expert & I messed up letting WH come home without being firm on conditions. But, I suggest Plan B at this point. I didn't even try to expose again.

God is there for you and He will catch your tears for you. I know you have support of friends -

Kimberly

Thanks Kim for your care and thoughts. I've just read your thread. Hard reading, and also hard to read some experiences of your correspondents there. I'll be thinking of you as you go through these trying times. I'm sure you know how blessed you are to have the terrific support group on your thread. You'll get through this with their help and the Lord's.

Something you said on your thread jumped out at me.

"IF the old husband ever turned up, I might be willing to give it another go. BUT if God has it in his plan another chance for us, it is going to be different the next go round"

That's the way I feel. I want my old sweetheart back. Not the lying, deceitful WW of recent experience, but the previous version - the spouse who was caring and thoughtful, and put our marriage above nearly all else.

I'm struggling with lots of things: whether it's possible to get over the lies and deceits, and whether WW even cares enough to try, and whether she could ever have a true heart, and how we could get to that inviting place in our M, etc. etc. etc. Lots and lots of questions. Trying to leave the battle to God...

My church teaches that we're all fallen. That's such powerful stuff. I guess that implies just about anybody is capable of doing just about any evil thing at any time. Recent experience tells me that's really the case (Jonathan Edwards, Eliot Spitzer,...)

Ok then so we're flawed. And we know we are instructed to forgive as we've been forgiven. Obviously also great stuff and probably no relationship would survive without forgiveness. But the trust issue is such a challege! How could I (or you or Lildoggie or other whose WS have been in repeated As) build trust a second time? My WW looked me in the eyes and told me flatly - twice - 'no I am not seeing OM again' (which was untrue) and criticized me for even THINKING such a thing is POSSIBLE! Good grief.

Putting the cart before the horse here - but anyway I'm wondering how can I get past such a thing? Anyway first things first - gotta see where WW stands on things.


Events to report:
As agreed, we're alternating days for a short period. So 2 nights ago WW had the boys, last night I had them, today WW has them and tomorrow I'll have them. I don't like it one little bit. It feels completely wrong to have the family divided like this. Wrong, wrong, wrong. We need to pull this together.

Scheduled to see new (Christian!) counselor Tuesday.

- WNH

weneedhelp...this is a precursor to what you'd be facing, in one form or another, if you proceed with D. I am convinced that this will impact your kids in a big way. Unfortunately, your WW cannot see clearly now, and will refuse to acknowledge that her actions are very damaging to those kids.

Have you re-exposed to the OM's W yet? I'm still convinced he's playing both sides of the street, and exposure to her will still muddle the OM's world. The more chaos you can bring to the OM the better. Likewise, if this is a workplace A, you should report it to both of their supervisors.

If you are not 100% convinced the new counselor is pro-marriage, and has the mettle to cut through your WW's fog, then save your time and energy by calling the Harleys. That money will be well spent!

I'll keep looking in... best wishes.... sd

WNH -

I agree with Shattered about calling the Harley's if you can for counseling. I was able to counsel with Steve a couple of years ago and he is very good.

Re-building trust is a hard thing. Taking down the walls that we build to protect ourselves is hard. The WS has to be willing to work hard at it. I pray that it will happen for you......

You are probably like me. You never imagined in a thousand years that the person you married would do something so unimaginably horrible like this.

God is there to give us strength - We can do all things through Him.

Kim

Shattered: Thanks for stopping by, I remember you're not quite as active now, and I appreciate your interest.

Kim: Thanks for your note. We'll get through this...

I guess we'll all have more info after Tuesday's counseling session. I expect the counselor to be very good based on my friend's recommendation. Could call the Harley's as well - depending on how this goes we could need a ton of help with the trust issue.

Only a couple of civilized sentences between WW and me today. No news or info expected till Tuesday. I'm really curious what's going on in her head, but I think it's best to just wait and talk in front of the counselor.

Thanks and best of luck,
-WNH

Wishing you the best of luck with your new counselor tomorrow, we!

sd

Thanks for the note Shattered. I had a queasy stomach going into the meeting and it helped a lot to know that people here are cheering for a good outcome - whatever that may be.

Our Christian counseling went really well considering the circumstances. Counselor asked what each of us wants from the counseling. WW's says she thinks she wants a graceful end to the M. I say I don't know what I want, other than to have enough time to listen for the Lords will and to do the right thing for our family.

We set some ground rules and scheduled 3 more weekly meetings, so that's good - we'll at least have some amount of time to talk about issues.

Surprisingly we didn't do much on the Christian end, but I'm pretty sure we'll get there. Today he just wanted to make sure it's not about taking sides, not a Christian-vs-heathen power play etc. That wouldn't be a good foundation for ongoing conversations.

Separately WW is continuing to see her own counselor. Our new Christian counselor suggested same for me in order to explore my own issues outside the M. I will do that. So we'll have three counselors; hers, mine and ours. Whew. This should be an insightful period for us....

Not sure where this is going, but at least it's in motion again. Still asking the title question 'does God want us to D'? and will likely continue asking for awhile until there is - if not clarity - at least less fogginess.

Thanks to all, and God Bless you and your families.
-WNH

wnh...here's hoping your counseling session goes well on Tuesday. Any new news to report?

sd

Graceful end to marriage = Permission to commit adultery.

Thanks friends for the notes. It's such a help to know there are people in our corner.

We had our 2nd week of joint counseling today. Not much better, although WW showed a bit less anger. She is still thinking our M is probably over, and she may be right. But I'm not so sure.

I keep saying, 'can we please give this some time before making a life-changing decision?' I'm really unclear on what's the right way to go, but I also know I can't trust myself or my motives. I'm looking for something from a higher authority, and will wait a long time for it.

When I say things like 'whats the "right" way to go', my buddy gets out the 2x4. Don't you mean what feels right to you WNH? Aren't you really thinking in selfish terms WNH? etc. I'm trying hard to keep my heart and head clear and think about what God wants. Not so easy, but I know He is there and He is very fond of our family and all of us here on MB and elsewhere.

She says things like 'why cant you just admit our M is a failure'? Answer: Because I don't think it is. We've had much more good than bad in our M. But the bads have been really bad, and when we get into the ditch - again - the terrible memories come flooding back for both of us. Is that called post-traumatic stress?

Anyway it looks like we're set for a third round of counselling on Tuesday. I think that's good. Better to wait and pray and talk than to come to a hasty and possibly wrong conclusion.

She still hotly denies anything other than 'just lunch'. And she says she hasn't done anything wrong. She doesn't see even 'just lunch' as wrong. I disagree, and i'm sure that will be discussed before long.

Our old counselor was very explicit to her during our recovery. 'If you have any contact with OM ever again, there's a high probability it will kill the M'. Could be that's why WW didn't want to back to our old counselor.

As for whether it's really 'just lunch': sometimes I think she's being honest, but then I remember she twice lied to me about him recently. Maybe best to just not even ask, since I won't believe her answers anyway. And lord knows even if it were 'just lunch', she liked about it and kept it a secret, so she bloody well knew it was wrong.

Tomorrow she goes to a 2-nights-out conference in DC. Same one where the first A started 3 years ago. I think it's likely OM will be there. Would you be surprised to hear I have questions about what WW and OM will be doing after hours? It's not driving me crazy. Not sure why not. I guess it feels a little like WW will either decide to respect the M or not, and either way it will be a relief.

I guess that's about it. Thanks for your caring & concern.

Blessings on all, and may the Lord be with you in your struggles.
- WNH

counseling go well today, we?

One good thing I think. Wife agreed to take a good long time in counselling - possibly up to six months.

Hopefully that means we can have many useful sessions to explore what are the real issues in our M.

Then we can see if there's a way forward. Personally I don't see why not, but obviously it depends on my wife's heart and desires. After long reflection and counselling, if she really truly feels I can never meet her needs and desires, then we both need to know that.

In the meantime it buys us a few more months as an undivided family. Not 100% happy with each other, but at least together. I think that's a good thing for the kids.

Part of me is waiting for the other shoe to drop - e.g. an unexpected D filing by wife, or for her to get bored with counselling and start spending lots of time with OM, or whatever.....

Counselor is taking a week away, so we won't meet again until almost Halloween.

Guess that's about it for today.