Hello. I haven't been on in a while - my computer was broken.

Anyways, there have been a couple things that I wanted to mention.

First, he called me last Thursday for no reason at all. He was just making small talk until I discovered they had another little hiccup. Her dog had been very ill and OW had blocked off her living room. Well WH left it open and of course the dog got in and threw up on her $900 throw rug that she loved. Long story short, OW got a cup of water and threw it on the rug, WH tried to clean it w/stain remover but to no avail. The next day she called him and asked him why the stain was still there (it had set in) He said because of the water she poured, it made the stain worse. She then told him "Everytime I talk to u I get enraged." Pretty big statement I think. It sounds like he's getting on her nerves. To top it off, she had to get her dog put to sleep as she was very ill and was not getting better. Karma??

Secondly, my therapist and I have concluded that WH is a narcissist. I had never heard of it, but from what I've been describing to her she had suspected narcissism. Yesterday she gave me a list of their traits that said he has to have 5 characteristics and lo and behold he meets every single one. This explains a lot. I have been reading about NPD all morning and I feel like I'm reading a description of him.

I'm not sure how to deal with this now. It has opened a new door. I have been reading as much as I can about how to deal w/ a narcissist.

Advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Might be getting time to go to Plan B. My ex and his OW broke up several times before the big breakup. And the breakups kept getting closer and closer together.

The NPD is kind of bad news. Those people only care about themselves, and others are just appendages.

Believer- thanks for your response. I always love hearing from you!

I have been thinking of Plan B for a while because he is in contact w/me quite a bit which means I am meeting some need. It would be dfficult to do though because we do have 2 small children.

Regardless of what happens between him and I, I am very concerned about the NPD in relation to our 2 boys and how he treats them. He is already very hard on our 4 yr old. I always thought it was the Marine in him, but now I see it has a lot to do with the narcissism. He sees our son as an extension of him. It's so clear now why he does the things he does. For example, when our son just turned 4 he broke his arm. WH kept telling him not to cry because he's brave and tough and theres no need to cry. Like I said I thought this was because he's Mr. Macho Marine, but it's also the narcissism. Our little one is only 7 months so I'm not worried about him yet. Although he does want him to be the favorite baby at daycare and is always asking "He's the favorite, right?" I just thought it was fatherly pride.

Boy, do I have a lot of homework to do!

I havent been on in a while. Had a one week vacation (if I dare call it that) and my computer broke again so I treated myse4lf to a new one.

Anyways, I think it's time to move to Plan B. It has been 5 months now since he left and the Plan A hasn't worked. I think it's because he's not around the house enough for me to do a good Plan A.

Any advice on how I can do a good Plan B with my situation? I know there will have to be some contact because of the children and finances.

Thank you. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I havent been on in a while...just trying to sort things out.

My question today is...is it common to have several false chances of R before the real one?

Here's what happened - On 9/3 WH called me at work and said he wants to work things out. He asked me to make a list of goals and email it to him. I did and we emailed each other back & forth thru out the day. We talked about how we each wanted to start fresh and from the beginning and no more of the old bad habits...etc. His words were so convincing and sincere. He came to our house the next day and played Daddy to the kids and slept on the couch (we had discussed it and decided to take things slow means no sleeping in the same bed)
He came on Friday and did the same thing. This time he brought whatever stuff he had at OW's house w/him and told me it's over between them. The next day, I took my kids to a bday party and he called me when I got home and told me that he's at OW's house and he said ""This is where I belong" He said his heart belongs to her and he broke mine ...again. Not even 24 hrs after bringing his stuff from her house he was back there w/all his stuff again. I was and am so hurt from this. A part of me feels like I'm back at Day 1 again.

So my question today is... is this common? Friends & family have warned me that this may happen several more times before the real recovery begins where he goes NC with OW.

Please provide any input or suggestions.

We had 1 false recovery lasting about 3 weeks, he went back to OW for about 2.5 weeks and now has been NC for 8 weeks.

I have heard a few stories where there was to and fro-ing for a while. If this is going to be too hard on you, perhaps you should consider plan B. Mine was too short really, but did get me out of the picture long enough for him to get a clearer picture of OW for what she was.

Thanks lildoggie.

One thing i forgot to mention is that he was not remorseful at all so I should have caught that as a red flag. He did talk about all the things he wanted us to do differently but not once did he say he was sorry or that he had made a mistake. The closest he got was when he said he misses his family dearly.

I think in order for it to be a true road to R he needs to be truly remorseful and ready to give up OW for good.

Absolutely.
When Flick came home in the FR, he never changed anything about who he was or did during his A. He did have plans for us, but didnt like me at all, and in fact was so horrible i spent nearly every day in tears.
Now he shows a little remorse altho has not apologised yet, is working on our recovery, and is doing the MB programme.
The last is an unusal thing, most WS don't come on MB, but I made it a condition of his return before I found that out

No contact is a must. As Believer said to me over and over, just the act of writing the NC letter is a litmus test.

Take care of you and try (hard as I know it is) to stay clear of his madness, for you and your kids.

Just having a real hard day today and want to vent a little.

I am still so hurt from the false R. He really got my hopes up only to crush me again. The way he talked about all these plans for the future for our family he really got me going. We talked about the upcoming holidays and how to celebrate our sons' birthdays coming up.

The part that hurts the most is that he says he's so in "In love" with her. I truly believe he is chasing a concept and not necessarily chasing her. Is this common for WS's too? I don't think he realizes that once he reaches the "destination" it's not going to be all that he thinks it will. The grass is rarely greener.

Hi Shelly,

Did you ever go into Plan B? (Sorry no one replied when you asked about that awhile ago.) If so, are you going back into PB now that he left again? Or if you weren't in PB now, do you think you should be now?

Hi Shelly,
I am sorry your day was so hard.


All I can tell you is Flick did exactly the same thing. He was home for 3 weeks during the false recovery and started up contact with OW within a week. You cannot make headway with a WH when they still are focused on the OP.

Yes yes yes.
They dont love the OP, they love the fantasy they have about the OP. they love the way the OP makes them feel, not what they feel for the OP. Its all make believe. Do you remember being a teen and having those awful crushes??? Thats all they have, and just like those crushes, it goes away.


The grass is greener where it's watered.

''The fantasy of affairs (believing someone else will make me happy) or addiction (something else will make me feel better) are temporary and do not address the core issues that keep us stuck in shameful feelings about ourselves. ''

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If so, turn to page 84. I too felt that I should see remorse and was upset that I didn't. Some WS's show it, others do not. Yes, he must give up the OW but don't expect remorse.

Jayne-

Yes I was doing Plan B (well sort of) I did not contact him under any circumstance. He contacted me here and there about the kids and finances. This lasted about a month.

Lildoggie-

Thank you for sharing. It's comforting to know that he is following the script and his behavior is common for WS's. I completely agree with you that in order to R he cannot be focused on OW. May I ask, what made your H come back after a few weeks when he went back to OW? Did you feel like he would or did you feel like it's really over since he went back to OW. That's how I feel sometimes - like he tried and that was our one chance at R. But then I read about how there can be several false R befor the real one.

CrushedJim-

No I havent purchased SAA yet. I think it's time I do.

Thank you all for responses. Don't know what I'd do without MB. It helps make some sense of this to know that his behavior is typical for a WH.

From what you say about your "sort of Plan B" it sounds to me like it was probably more confusing to him than effective.

Plan B should follow a stellar Plan A.

Plan B should include a Plan B letter, which I don't think yours did. This is important because it explains WHY you are going dark, and outlines clear requirements for returning home. Your H may not know there is a path home now, and if he thinks there is he certainly doesn't know the requirements.

Plan B also means going TOTALLY dark, and having all communications (financial, about the kids) go through an intermediary.

If you'd been doing a good Plan A up until now, I'd say it's time for Plan B. But it's been a plan confusion and I'm not clear on how good an image you'd be leaving him with.

You seem to be surprisingly objective and level-headed about the situation, what's your gut feeling on it? Is it time for Plan B or do you need to do a stellar Plan A for 2-3 weeks first?

Turtle-

I did Plan A as best I could since he was no longer living at home. I did it for about 5 months. No, I didn't do a Plan B letter. I will look for samples. I think he knows that there is a path home. Even after the false R, I am almost positive that he knows he can come home. Your right though - he doesnt know the requirements.

Yes, what turtle said. You want to go completely dark, NC at all. Any contact with you either meets a certain need so he can go back to the OW, or if it's negative, it reinforces his attraction to the OW. You don't want him to be able to get any "you" fix; he must see what life would be like if he has ONLY the OW to meet his needs. There's a huge diff between fantasyland and real life. The best sitch is when this is sudden, after a wonderful last interaction with you, so that he will be in withdrawal from *you* and suddenly thrust him and OW into the harsh reality of real life.

Lil has an example PBL on her thread, and maybe we posted links to more examples, I can't remember. Write up your version of one and post it here and we'll help you edit it. It should be perfect.

Since you never gave him a PBL before, if you just stopped communicating with him, then I think you could still try to have a good final interaction with him before going dark. If nothing else, you could just look stunning the next time you cross paths to exchange the kids; speak nicely to him; show him a confident, happy you who is having a great life with or without him; maybe give him a brief hug or peck on the cheek in parting. Does this seem possible?

I agree this should be the *minimum*.

If I'm reading you correctly, you did a pretty darn good Plan A considering the circumstances. Then "for no apparent reason" you turned cold. If you go totally dark now, he's going to remember the cold, distant you. He needs to remember the beautiful, clean-house, active, vibrant, Betty Crocker, interesting, admiring you.

If you can stand Plan A for a couple of weeks while you line up a mediator and formulate your Plan B letter, then you could go dark with a "I tried but this is killing the love I have for you" Plan B letter.

Hmmm, what made him come back?
Wellto ask him in his still fogged in state, it was primarily because she was fairly horrible and because I had started doing some things he enjoyed and I had the children.

The belief is that I did a pretty good plan A, worked hard on filling his top EN's (RC, PA, AF, C, Ad) kept house and home nice, had a good personality around him and only came on here to melt down, and when I found out the was still contact I went immediatly into a complety dark plan B.
I had zero contact, I didnt answer the one text he sent me, I vanished.
OW on the other hand told him she didnt care if he got hurt on his new activities, had a weeks worth of disposible nappies in her laundry, screaming kids, wandering animals, animals on the bed, animals [censored] in the house, no food, animals on the bench eating the food he bought, her in her PJ's all day, on the computer all day, her bi polar, mood swings, bleeding himfor money.
Did I think he would come back? No not really, I never thought he would come back the first time I just had to stop and get off the roller coaster itwas driving me crazy.

I have to say, I am not sure I would take him back again should he go wayward again. Recovery isnt all that wonderful and somedays I can'tbe bothered.

LilD-

Thank you for sharing. I know one main reason my WH came back was bc of the children. He said he misses them dearly. But, the thing i worry about is he believes OW is a wonderful woman. I hope it's bc he is still foggy and is only in lust with what he thinks she is and I know there is no reality yet.

I have heard R is not that wonderful. Even those 3 days when he came home, the ice was thicker than ever and each time I thought the ice was breaking - it never really did. I assumed it was bc he was only back for 3 days and if we had longer things would have gotten better slowly.

I want to start a good Plan B but I'm scared to bc I have read the stats on it and the % of success is not very high.

oh dear.
Well I can tell you one thing. All that stuff I wrote about how horrible OW is came from Flick, straight from the horses mouth. Yet 2 weeks ago he told me that if it didnt work out between us, he would go back to her. So don't get too worried about it.

As far a % sucess for Plan B, Esprit and i both went PB at around the same time and for a while we searched the site for info and you know what? There isnt any. I even started a thread to ask if anyone knew and they didnt.
There are alot of sucess stories from using plan B but really you go into it for you, not the wayward. Had I allowed Flick to carry on as he was with his cake eating, i would have come to hate him, and I knew it. Pln B is to help you. If you want to save your feelings then go PB, if you want to lose them, then keep watching him with her, having your heart broken every day until you have nothing left.
I bought Love Busters the other day and there is a bit in it about the love bank. It not only has 'friend' and 'potential spouse' thresholds, it has the opposite... "people I dont like', and 'people I hate'. staying around people who hurt you over and over again, will get them into the hate threashold.