6years,

You said
The answer to this question is PROFOUND. It is HECK YEAH!

How many guys have come to this site saying: "I never knew she was unhappy, she never said anything to me about it." Or " yes she complained about a FEW things, but I thought it was just her, being her." Oh! man if I had a dollar for every guy, much less woman that came here saying that I would retire. I'm close so I don't need more than a MILLION or so.

My point, if you did not complain, and you acted in a loving manner, then her take probably was "this works for me I love the treatment." He must be happy because otherwise I would be hearing about it, and he would NOT act in a loving manner.

Many people would think that because they don't "love" is a verb, they think it is adverb, better yet a "feeling". The odd reality is that you acted toward her just as you had vowed with love in good times and bad. Yet you felt no love toward her.

This is the opposite of "feeling" love for someone, and treating them like crap. I am sure she is confused because I suspect she thinks love is a feeling, not an action. I think her Mom but the light under her tail to start "acting" with love.

She loved how you treated her, you did not make her feel bad, you met her needs, you took over with the kids, HEY you were perfect. Better yet, she did not have to return the effort, she could just sit there and take, and take she did. She did not understand the cost, but then neither did you.

Now she knows the gravy train has a finite time, unless something changes, and she is willing to change, and balance out her giver/taker. You need to do the same. You have been in giver mode for a long time and it has harmed you. When your W started to give to you, it felt strange didn't it? Your taker did not know what to do, and sure didn't feel you should accept it.

The reality is she was not looking very hard at you, because if she did or rocked the boat she feared she would have to face what she did to your marriage, and herself. NO one likes to face they are an adulterer. No one likes to admit their deepest failures. So she could not really engage. Now in the last few months she realized she was going to lose you if she did not engage, but she ran the risk that she would have to face her actions, lack of actions, and failures as a mother and a W. As predicted it came to pass. Now she has to face it all.

She was sort of in a catch 22, if you know what I mean. She had a good thing, she did not want to face her failures, and she wanted to remain married to you because...(she needed you, she loves you, she fears losing you, etc). But, I think her Mom made her see that her path was not working as well as she thought. You did have a plan and it was up and out in 6. The UAOI6 plan meant that she had to run the risk of facing her failures or losing you. She chose you.

Hang in there 6, you are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I see how it is a trap, because during the A any request I made was ignored at best. Usually I was told horrible things about me etc. So I stopped asking. I am going to get the SA book. I'm having alot of trouble asking for anything even now.

I do think that he postnup is giving me an additional push to work on things, since I feel like we have made a deal.

This one statement alone says a whole lot about her mindset. I hope to goodness she STILL doesn't think this way.

6years,

I am glad you think the post-nup is helping you. I also know that what she did during the affair and after was not fair.

Has she said anything at all to you about what you read in those letters or what she said to you during the affair? Has she started to face any of that?

God Bless,

JL

A life to live:

I liked this line from you:


I also liked that you didn't say anything else. This is time for HER to talk. Let her sort out some things, and you just have to listen. You can ask followup questions, but let her talk.

You may get insanely p!ssed over some of the statements she makes, but let her talk. You can correct obviously false things or fog-speak, but do it in a calm, deliberate manner. No need to yell. Your winning this thing. And SHE wants to be on your side.

LG

LG, JL, Princess;

She is caring about my happiness right now, but I am very far from happy so it is going to be a long haul on that.

She has not said anything about the letters or the time of the A. I did tell her that we were going to have to talk about it, in detail. She said she is sorry and just wants to put it behind us. I said I can't do that unless we talk about it. There are alot of letters even from the beginning of the A, prior to their lame attempts at sex. It will help me to see how this progressed but it will hurt. I'm thinking if we just talked about a little of it at time that at some point I may get enough of a picture to get past it or to see that I never will.

LG - She knows I'm not going to let false things go. I'm thinking that in a few more days or so that I will have enough composure to have these conversations.

She is honoring my request to never mention OM unless I ask, she said it is hard because she wants to tell me that I am better than him. I asked to think if she was doing that to make me feel better or to make her feel better. She didn't know. I did tell her that it should not matter if I am better, I am her H and it hurts me to think I was or am being compared to someone else.

Enough rambling, I am feeling less angry today, but I am still going to go beat up some people in the gym.

6, I just wanted to add something I hadn't seen yet. I've been to psychiatrists and I've been to psychologists, and I have found that, to get any real 'mental work' help, you're far better off with a psychologist. Don't know why, but everyone I've asked has said the same thing. Maybe it's cos they can't prescribe meds so they have to pay more attention to the actual patient and not the symptoms. Anyway, please consider finding a good psychologist in your area; save the psychiatrist for the meds when/if you need them.

Good luck.

I'm feeling a little more under control, so tomorrow we are going to have our first discussion of what happened. I'm feeling like I will not get answers to why.

I think I can be under control while we discuss this and not say anything too terrible.

I'm still angry but not so out of control angry. Now I kind of feel like we both screwed up but it may not be fixable. I'm still going to try.

She is saying sorry alot, it does help.

I hope that talk goes well and that you 2 continue to grow through this.

6,

Just remember when you have this discussion (and any other ones) you are going to hear things that will make you want to explode on the spot. It's VERY important that you don't REACT to the information. It's going to hurt.

Stay CALM.
Listen.
Thank her for being honest.
And if you need to yell and scream, do it here.

By handling her honesty in this manner, she will be open to be honest again when you have more questions.

If you go off the wall, she'll clam up. She won't be able to handle your pain or your anger. The result is less honesty.

I know you've done a stellar job, really you have. I just wanted to remind you that these discussions can benefit both of you as long as she feels safe to give you the details. So keep it safe.

Hang in there 6.

Thanks Michele,

I think I can be calm and I never call names or say things I don't mean. I got many many spankings as a child for saying mean things, so I can control my mouth.

I have decided that I am not going back to any more secret plans. W is reading here and she knows I am trying to decide if I can stay or not. She knows it is going to take me a long time and she knows that I will behave as a loving husband while I am figuring this out. Unfortunately that is the most safety I can give her. If she won't discuss it the answer is that I'm gone in 6 years, so maybe in reality these discussions are completely safe for her, in that she can't really lose anything. Also on the old plan D, I would probably have been so angry that we would never even be on speaking terms again. It seems like we can do better than that.

Honesty is always the best policy. You will not regret it. You will know that you gave her and your M the fairest chance possible. And you will respect YOURSELF for it.


Right....WE...if you two can work as a team your M can recover.

You're a good man 6.

I LOVE your attitude. Carry on.

We talked about the first letter tonight and the beginning of the A. There was no sex, by this letter, but she was already writing nasty and untrue things about me. Not a very satisfying conversation. She is just insisting that she was younger and less responsible and couldn't handle the pressure of 5 kids. I calmly pointed out that meant that for me, only one year older, I then had a cheating wife, had to make all the money, had to do all of the kid care and almost all of the home care. And then while I'm doing that, she is complaining to the impotent little runt that I am not romantic.

I asked her what she thought romantic was and she it going to think about that. We are going to talk later. I wonder if the introspection we are doing is wise. I really just wanted to chuck it all at the end of the conversation. Maybe we should just try to make a good marriage for the next 6 years and if it isn't working at the end I can leave.

6,

I can only pop in from time to time. I wanted to post to you as I had a chance today.

You've been wondering about the question of "why" she had an affair. I had the same question about my H. Why. His answer to me was unfulfilling at best. He said it was for the excitement. Gee, thanks. He was willing to trade everything in his life for "excitement". My response was as un-MB as possible: "Are you an *&^*ing idiot?"

She also told you that she didn't stop loving you, even while she was in the affair. My husband told me that, too. We had lengthy discussions about this, and I have come to understand that there is some very strange truth to this. His behavior is unloving. His betrayal of me unloving. Yet, he was also betraying himself during this same time, betraying his own feelings for me, doing what he knew was wrong - fighting himself inside the whole time. This affair thing nearly made him crazy. He fought what he KNEW was wrong, and did it anyway, lied to himself first, and then to me. He made himself sick, then made me sick. All of the hurt that he cast upon me, he actually did to himself first - the betrayal, everything. He definitely allowed something inside himself to take over that ordinarily would not be in control, and every single day he regrets it. Still, that did not cancel his love for me. His stupid decision-making, his actions, his behavior and lying, none of that erased the love. It was still there - and he knew that.

He betrayed it, yes, but never erased it.

There is a difference. I sort of equate it to a teenager who goes through a phase of hating his parents. He does not hate his parents. Yet his behavior might lead you to believe he does.

And the anger you feel. You aren't a stranger to this - you have had the anger over the years. Only you have chosen to keep it bottled up. You have kept it close to yourself, only now you have a "reason" to let it out.

You've actually always had the reason, since her affair. You CHOSE not to confront it back then. Instead, you've allowed it to grow into what it is now. You said in one of your posts that it is your fault, this anger thing. Yeah, I would agree with that, to some degree. In the sense that it was bottled up, yes. But it is okay to be angry - when it is justified. An affair is reason to be angry, you bet. Be sure you vent in a healthy way, and that you DO vent. My thoughts here are that you don't bottle it up - 10 years is WAY too long. Don't do that anymore. Probably something to consider addressing in your counseling - holding something that long, you might want to rethink your approach.

Finally, you speculate on being compared to OM. I tended to compare myself to OW, and I worried a great deal about my H comparing me to OW, too. I worried so much about the sex they had, what it was like, what he thought of her vs. me. I got caught up in it and couldn't focus on OUR relationship in SF. I had to know, and then I wondered if I had too many details. I don't know if I will ever get a balance in there.

SB

What is that going to entail?

Working through the A stuff is what trying "to make a good marriage" is.

As Schoolbus said....Don't stuff it anymore. Even for personal R you're going to have to work through it.

You hold a great deal of resentment. Years of it. It will take months before you start to feel any normalcy. And many months after that before you rid yourself of all this anger. But once you get THERE, that will be the time to see what direction you should go in.

It's a rollercoaster. You'll go down every time you have one of these conversations, then you'll recompose and head back up. Expect it.

You've got 6 years to make a decision...Don't throw in the towel yet or make ANY decisions.

6years,

From what I understand from those that have counseled with the Harley's they spend little time in the past other than you learn how to be better people in the future.

What is it you expect to learn from the letters? Are you expecting to learn she did NOT have an affair? Are you expecting to learn she treated you like crap because she just felt like it and the affair had nothing to do with it?

Are you expecting that thought you were the best guy since sliced bread and THAT cause and justified her affair?

ARe you expecting her to tell OM the truth, when she could not even tell herself the truth?

What are YOU expecting to learn?

I think you need to figure what has changed. If she was/is the same woman that had the affair, then dump her NOW. She is not, you know that. What you don't know, and what she does not know is what sort of W, mother, woman, human is she NOW?

You may enjoy the pain of rereading those letters, and you may enjoy the pain and humiliation of the justification she used to continue with her affair, but if you do, you should not be married.

So who are you? Are you a man that loves pain and revisiting it? Or are you a man that is willing to reevaluate a changing situation?

It is your call. You still don't really know what changed in her. You really don't know why she feels she loves you now, when clearly she did not then. You still don't know what you want from this marriage nor what she wants from this marriage.

Isn't it time to use history to LEARN about the future rather than sitting in history and trying to change it?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I don't even know who I am as a husband right now. How can I figure who she is as a W or if I even want her as a W. She has given me many reasons that she loves me now and they all seem like fair weather friend type of reasons. The fact is when things got tough I couldn't count on her. Now that things are easy she wants to come back. I don't know what to do with that.

I do think that revisiting the past is unimportant except that I need to know that when things are tough I can count on her. She knows that about me. I had a bad plan, but I was there and I provided and I took care of the kids and I took care of her.

How could she possibly show me that? I think it is the core of my problem. It's easy to be with me now, I'm a good husband, father and provider. I'm reasonably good looking and very fit. I'm considerate and a good cook.

I just don't know what to do.

6,

With all due respect, you are NOT easy to be with right now. You are in the worst pain of your life. She is not just taking a walk in the park. This is very tough stuff for her.

You don't have to figure out the answers today. In fact, it would be impossible to do so fairly or accurately.

She has already shown you a lot by signing the post-nup, the day you asked for it, without complaint. That is her statement, bigger than any words could be, that she knows she was wrong and treated you terribly unfairly, and wants to make up for it.

What you should do is work the plans, day after day, to become better spouses together going forward. We've suggested strongly to you ways to get more help with this. Those avenues are open to you, This is not the greatest self-help project, and you would really benefit by experienced help getting your marriage on track and satisfying for both of you.

That is your goal. A marriage that is, moving forward, satisfying for both of you.

And I strongly believe you can get there.

6Years,

I know you are in pain and very confused, not to mention uncertain, so pardon my "sick humor" but what you said sort of made me laugh. Here is why. I apologize ahead of time.

You said
What were you going to do during the last 10 years if things got tough? What were you going to do during the next 6 years if things got tough? I don't know much but you were not going to rely on her were you? Nope, I am sure you weren't. You were just going to deal with it yourself the best way you can with no expectations of help from her at all.

I know you think she wants to come back when things got easy. You should probably express your feelings concerning this. But, people usually fail and bail when things are tough and she did that. No matter what she may do it again. You don't know. Will you ever know? Yes, when things get bad and she either runs (no surprise to you if she does) or she stays. ONly then will you know.

You did not stay for her, you stayed for the kids. Actually 6years I do think you stayed for her. I do think your focus was on the kids and taking care of them, but you loved her then and deep down you love her now. That is why you are so angry and in such pain.

Instead of worrying about what she will or won't do, why don't you worry about what YOU will or won't do? What are you boundaries? What do you expect from a good W? What do you expect from your W? If she fails and violates your boundaries what are you going to do? How are you going to do it? You need to be figuring these things out now.

She has to face her own letters, her own lies, her failures as a W and her failures as a mother. She knows deep down she has not been good to either you or the kids. That is why when her mother gave her the ungarbled word, she listened and changed her behavior. She KNEW. She KNOWS now, that you are gone unless things change and stay changed.

MOre importantly, she has been willing to sign a post-nup for you. Here is the hard part of recovery.

At some point you have to let go of the wall and swim into the deep end, even if you don't trust that anyone will come to your aide if you start to struggle. Most that come to this point realize how LONELY life can be.

But, 6years you have friends here, you have your children, you have your religion, your faith, your family and friends. You have a lot in your life AND you may just have your best friend and lover back in your life to support you. In short, YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

In the next few months, you will have to let go of the wall and swim out into the deep end. It is the way of things 6years.

God Bless,

JL

"I don't even know who I am as a husband right now .... "

6 - Let me tell you something about who you are as a husband as far as I can see. You are everything that a husband is suppose to be. You have demonstrated great strength in the way that you have handled yourself, your marriage, your family, and your kids.

You decided long ago what your kids needed to see from you and gave that to them. Everyday you provided for, took care of, and demonstrated to them what a man is suppose to be. You showed them what they needed to see.

You also took the high path and decided that (despite the circumstances) you were going to demonstrate "love" (even though you might not see it that way) to your wife. Despite being at what many might consider the lowest point of a marriage you pulled yourself up and became the best man that you could.


6 - I applaud you for what you have done. More importantly I am looking to you and situation as hope and encouragement for mine.


6 - You have demonstrated everything that I want to be as a husband! And you continue to do so. Thank you for sharing your story! I have hope and encouragement in every bit of it!