Jayne:

I feel for you. it stinks to discuss issues, create what you thought was a POJA'd plan to deal with somethign, and then have your spouse fail to live up to their side of the agreement.

But as a historical overGiver, I feel the need to give you some advice that I hope won't feel too harsh. You need to establish boundaries. You need there to be consequences when your husband does not live up to his agreement. If he says he will pick up the kids, then he needs to pick up the kids. if he doesn't, you need to make that HIS problem. Do not leave work wearly and pick up the kids yourself and have there be no consequences tohim except that you are angry. he has shown that you being angry is not enough to motivate him to change his behavior.

So maybe you put the kids in the after-school program that works for you so you know they are safe when you have to stay at work. Maybe that one costs more. Maybe it imposes fees when the kids don't get picked up on time. Well, then your husband will have to pay the fees. Or maybe he has to pay double for after school care because you pay now for the less than optimal one and then you pay again for the one at their school when a spot opens.

That is the price he has to pay for not living up to his agreements. If he isn't willing to leave work early to pick up the kids, then it will cost the family more money. He still gets to choose whether he leaves work early. He can still choose to "pay the price" if he stays at work. But instead of the price being you leave work early and you are angry, the price is more money out of the family account.

Right now you guys have an unspoken agreement that when he falls short, you will cover for him. And you, quite understandably, resent having to cover for him. So stop doing it.

Wow hold...

Thanks. First, let me say that I've spent the last little while searching for a particular thing I wanted to copy-and-paste from another site, for *you*... so I was surprised to come back here and find you were giving me advice! And it's needed advice, and appreciated, truly. Thanks.

Please help me with the consequences, I can't figure out how to do that. I just *can't* leave the kids there to not be picked up... I thought about going ahead and putting them in the childcare that has open spots, but the kids don't want that, there's too many "babies" there, they want to be with older kids.

I think the kids and I have come up with something: they will try to be quiet if we go back to my office for an hour or two, and I convinced H to take them to Walmart to pick out some workbooks and coloring books and snacks for me to keep in my office. (I resent that I had to *convince* him! He only agreed after I said, ok fine, you pick them up then!) I may be ok with trying that for a bit... I'd be a lot more comfortable with that after my deadline... Even if they're quiet, they still want to ask me things, even quietly, which interrupts my train of thought. I don't want to ignore them, but I must get some things done that take concentration.

On Wednesdays, the day of my evening class, another Cub Scout parent told me the Lutheran church has an after-school program with bussing from the school. I told H about it. He didn't say anything. Should I POJA this, or just sign them up?

What kind of consequences can there be for not checking the kids' book bags to get the notices to the parents, their homework, library books, etc? If those things aren't done, it's the kids who suffer the consequences. H seems to not care if their homework is late or not done at all.

And yes, I feel like everything that he doesn't do, I must do. No matter what.

He says he MUST get his work done, and if something else has to fall by the wayside, so be it. I feel like the kids MUST be taken care of, and if that means my work suffers or I lose sleep trying to make up the work, that's just how it is.

So, can you help me figure out what sort of consequences there can be? I like the thing about the financial cost of picking them up late. Can you think of something bout schoolwork, about interacting with them?

Jayne:

Always happy to be of help. Although I can clearly see what you need to do, I am not very good with the how. I tend to be too "bottom line oriented" when I discuss these things with Mrs. Hold. She never seems to feel loved or that I am trying to help her or work jointly. She always seems to feel she is being attacked. So you may want to take advice on the "how" issue from someone more diplomatic.

In the big picture, what you need to identify is the thing he wants most from you. Then explain that you are not enthusiastic about continuing to provide it while he ignores the logistical issues regarding the children. So he isn't REQUIRED to leave work early, or pay attention to the children, or their backpacks, etc., but if he chooses to prioritize work above everything else, then you may choose to prioritize the things that are important to you over the things that are important to him.

I see the biggest risk is that he hears you saying that he "can't" prioritize work or that he "must" leave work early and pick the kids up. He will feel controlled and talked down to, and he will rebel against that. You need to make this about exploration. What would it take for him to be enthusiastic about leaving work early and paying more attention to the kids while he is at home with them in the evening? If there isn't anything you can offer that makes it worth it to him, what is he willing to do or consent to that will help you be enthusiastic about being the one who has to bear the larger burden of caring for the kids?

Which is where I always get tripped up. Because I present this so harshly that Mrs. Hold is not motivated to negotiate with me. Hopefully you will be able to entice your husband to see this as a chance to create a win-win solution. Even if, in the end, he does not change his behavior and continues to prioritize work over everything else (a not unreasonable position in this climate of economic uncertainty), he may be open to some compromises that help you be more enthusiastic about his choice.

Hi Hold,

Oh, I see... you are saying I should be more diplomatic (at first I thought you were apologizing for not being diplomatic with me). What does he want most from me? I guess maybe his biggest ENs are Admiration, RC, and DS. (I had to go back to the beginning of this thread to check.)

RC has already been taken away, I have absolutely no time or energy left over after work and the kids. Admiration, well last week I withdrew, I still tried to compliment and appreciate the things he was doing. He's handling all the financial stuff including buying and selling houses, so I guess that isn't chopped liver. If I was handling that stuff I'd be in trouble right now. So I've been thanking him for that.

The withdrawal seems to be what motivated him to step up meeting my needs last Friday.

For DS, I've completely stopped doing any meal planning or prep or anything. We're in a hotel anyway, not much to do, but I've left H in charge of all food. I've been the only one doing laundry until today, because I'm the one most short of clothes. Most of my clothes are in storage, especially clothes I can teach in. H and the kids are still able to wear the same clothes they've been wearing all summer.

H started doing a load of laundry just now.

I guess I should sit down with him and see what would make him enthusiastic about leaving work early to pick up the kids, or calling to arrange for after-school child care. That's a good idea, I guess it's just my negative attitude that is holding me back from doing it.

Touche, Hold!

So, how does this sound: when I don't get the support with the child care that I need, then that time comes out of RC with him and DS? I guess I should tell him too, so it isn't an LB when I don't do the DS? And while I'm talking to him, I ask if there's anything that would make him enthusiastic about handling the after-school childcare needs?

I think I go to the tit-for-tat and trading too quickly. What I always miss is the chance for win-win. So it is not supposed to be about threats. Not "do this or I will ....." It is more about "I am frustrated, how can we get both of us to be satisfied?" Only after all negotiation fails do you implement your boundary protection measures. Don't start out where you don't want to end up. Start out seeking his help to end up at a good place.

No guarantee you will get there. Mrs. Hold has made it clear over the years that what I need to be satisfied with our relationship simply isn't on the table for discussion. But you should not assume your husband will feel that way. He might well be willing to do the things you ask for once he realizes how much it means to you and how unhappy you are. In other words, don't be like me and allow your pessimistic attitude to stop you from even trying to get to a good place. Try baby try!

This is good stuff. I will try this, and let you know how it goes. Thanks.

ETA: I don't think I'd realized that boundary protection measures are only after negotiation fails. Thanks for spelling that out.

hello Jayne,
Jut catching up on your thread and saw that your H made C with you! Wow, I am impressed

I wont bother giving advice on the rest, the others seem to have that in hand.

jayne, what about signing the kids up for the second-best aftercare until their spot at the favorite one opens up? And then H can decide if he doesn't want the kids there, by picking them up?

As far as the FC, does he care whether a parent looks at or helps with the homework or not? We sure do, but I've seen that not everyone does. What about trading off weeks?

Why do you two have more work than eiher of you can comfortably handle? Is the answer scaling that back to 50 hour weeks? Maybe you two should have staggered your start dates? Instead of both starting a new job at the same time?

That's what I suggested, but he says the other daycare doesn't want to take them "just for a few days". Neither of us understand that completely... unless she would have to shuffle people around to make room for them. But it seems she would want a commitment for the full year.

We did stagger our start dates by a week. They've been waiting for him to start his job all summer, and he told them he couldn't start until the week after school started, to give us the summer to get things in order plus have a family vacation. I can't change the school year dates, and I can't change the dates of the National Science Foundation deadlines. Neither of us punches a clock, we just have a certain amount of work that we need to do. The kids are in first grade, their homework is stuff like reading a book to us so they can't do that alone. It isn't just checking their math homework after they've done it by themselves. Add to that selling two houses, buying a third, coordinating movers, having the kids start a new school etc., and it's just a lot. Scaling back work to something that would make all the current stuff comfortable would basically mean ditching one of our careers.

Sorry, I'm hearing this the same way I hear it when a mother says to me, "Why don't you just get your kids to bed an hour earlier?" when I would be working until just in time to pick them up by 6:00 when their daycare closed, and then have to get them home, fix dinner, eat dinner, brush teeth, take baths, get in bed, and read. If I spent the entire evening pushing them to move faster, eat faster, etc., we could just get in bed by 8:30, and I still would have the kitchen to clean and laundry to do, and then get ready for the next day's work. And we don't even do baths every night.

ETA: I don't mean to snap at you, I just get frustrated at suggestions that sound to me like "all you need to do is..." when it isn't so simple... unless one of us gives up our career, and I'm not willing to do that and I don't want him to do that either. I would make a terrible SAHM. I don't have the patience.

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Maybe you will feel happier once both the homes are sold. And you are all moved and settled, etc. But then promise me you will take on LESS stuff. Your life is a killer lifestyle. There is way too much for a married couple to deal with. I know that I could not do it and I am a first class workaholic.!

Jayne, I am frustrated reading your posts. I am guessing that I may well frustrate you with my inactions, too. You say you have a buyer for your house, so this could bring you relief to think about, not more stress.

His house, he isn't doing anything on. He even told you this. Would you be willing to look up your house on the equivalent of reltor.com, see who is selling it, and contact her? No. What is the payoff? My guess is that it's your fear that your H would bully and put his hands on and stone wall and refuse to converse with you. This fear that's grounded in actual recent events. They discuss this dynamic in great detail in The Gaslight Effect. Did I get that right? maybe this situation has changed since the last time you brought it up, and now you have reason to trust that your H is handling this the way that you two POJA'd? Or is there another reason?

The joint house, do you two have a new plan for POJA on since you discussed this here last? What about getting an apartment for now? Or deciding to stay in the hotel for a period of time you can afford? Not making a decision is a decision, too.

I believe he is framing his opinion as fact to you in regards to the daycare. Because of the patterns you have described before. I believe that if you told the director the situation yourself, that she would take the kids on. I hope that I am wrong on this, and that he did tell you the facts. But like you told me, trust but verify. You may even grow to like this daycare.

I am sorry to hear that you heard me saying, "do this and it'll all be better." No, of course not. If it was just a few small things, you would have already done them. I see a parent crippled by fear of her H's reactions to make even the smallest movements to give order to her family. And a partner who refuses to POJA even the smallest movements to give order to his family. It made me think of FlyLady, how she encourages us to not be afraid to "do it wrong," and then get immobizied in inaction.

Please correct me where I got it wrong. I am saying, what small things can you do today to make your life a little easier? What is your payoff for not doing them today? I am asking you to assess it again, are your choices today working for you and your family? Baby steps.

Jayne, like I posted on Hold's thread, what about making some friends that you can count on for help? I know you want your H to step up to his responsibilities with the kids, but you can't control him, and today, he's decided not to. There are answers here.

I think you should still ask, and then fill him in on your back-up plan. Check your intent, jayne. You are suggesting not things to piss him off. You have been suggesting good, workable solutions.

I have two thoughts for you, triggered from our family's past.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I see many, many parents these days basing decisions on making sure their kids are happy. The truth is, kids are kids; they don't know how to know what will make them happy. I can think of a dozen times when D18 didn't want to do something, just because she hadn't the experience to know whether things would turn out and she might enjoy it. I sent her anyway. And except for one time, she did enjoy herself. It's our job to make the decisions, and it's the kids' job to acclimate to them. And they will; they're kids.

Giving kids that much control only confuses them, and teaches them that they need only look for instant gratification, instead of rolling with the punches. They don't learn to adapt, they don't learn to 'make the best of it,' and they don't learn to accept that they won't always get things the easy way. You'll be doing them a disservice if you don't allow them to struggle.

My other thought is that they're only in first grade! I used to stress all the time on making sure D18 excelled in every single thing she ever attempted at school. I freaked out if she didn't bring home A's on her report card. I sat her down and made sure that she did every single piece of homework, perfectly, so that her teachers would think I was amazing.

But the truth is, they're in first grade! Even if they don't turn in some homework, or it's sloppy, or they have to ask the teacher for help - especially since you say this is a temporary situation - the walls won't come crashing in. If anything, if you step back and don't stress about this, you will teach them that it's ok to adapt to a situation and not have to be perfect.

Even if they end up with a B or C in something this semester...so what? Having a happy, stress-free family is FAR more important than first grade report cards.

My H won a trip once to Spain 25 years ago, in which people from all over the country went from his company. It was first class all the way, they had all these excursions planned out for us, the whole week was full. There was this one couple, from California (naturally!), who didn't participate in any of it! They spent the whole week at the hotel, laying by the pool, while we all hustled all over the place, doing this, seeing that. At the time, I thought they were nuts. How many times in your life can you see such things?

But you know what? They were the happiest couple there. I see now that they knew what was important - enjoying each other on a great, paid vacation. I can only imagine that they lived their whole lives, and raised their kids, with the same attitude - enjoy each other and be happy, that's all that matters. I think we can all learn from that.

If you have that attitude, you can accomplish anything in life. But if you stress over grades and pride and appearances like I did, you'll learn to be that way the rest of your life. And never be happy.

He can't put all the conditions on the situation but then not pick up the slack.

"DH, you feel strongly about the aftercare, so you should be in charge of either picking them up afterschool until you can find an aftercare program you like."

Tell the kids that Dad will be picking them up.

Tell the kids if Dad doesn't pick them up they are to tell the office that their Dad didn't pick them up.

Tell DH that you will not be picking them up, so the principal will be calling him if the kids are left at school.

Just have to repeat this, because it's exactly what I was going to say, just didn't have time. Having to stay after school isn't going to kill the kids, might even be an adventure if you approach it correctly.

But I would add: Tell the school that he is on duty this week, give them his number just in case, and ask them to call him if he doesn't show up.

Jayne, I'm glad to hear you feeling like yourself again! And thanks for accepting my apology.

(((Jayne)))

Just a few minutes ago, I sat down on the couch beside H who was using his computer. I glanced at his screen just in time to see him close an email to his parents that he'd been typing. A similar thing had happened a week or two ago, also to his parents. This time, in a very light-hearted and friendly manner, I asked him what it was he closed and how come I couldn't see it. He didn't answer. I rephrased, and he said I was being annoying. He took his laptop and went to the hotel lobby.

I can't imagine what he might be telling his parents that he'd want to keep from me. Maybe I should look into a keylogger.

Strange. Thats what I tell DD12. Can't imagine when Ii would say it to the adult I am married to, without it seeming very disrespectful.

I say install. If nothing else it would ease your mind. Sux to need to snoop to find out whats happening in their life. I still find out more by reading H's cell than from what he tells me!